What is wrong with Renarin?(full book)

[Aminar]

I don't think he sees the future. Just has crazy math probability mapping abilities.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

joining bridge 4 is again something without any thought to his obligations.

 

it is propably good for him, but what would happen, if Adolin is somehow prevented to succeed Dalinar as Highprince?

 

Dalinar fears Assassins could go for his family.

what if Andolin dies on a gemheart run?

or in one of thouse duels?

 

they allready have a weak footing with the High court.

and with the core of their army gone?

if Renarin would become sole heir - playing/joining "slaves"

how should this work out?

 

ok as "known" Radiant it is something else, but its not like he knew.

 

with a few tiny little changes to the storyline, he could be the Highprince, and successor to the Kingdom allready.

(no Kaladin - Sedeas reteat killed Dalinar/Adolin), and the revolt at Kolinar killing the current successor.

 

you all say he is intelligent, some say very.

but he seems not to use it alot.

 

The others have kinda said this but... what would you rather have him do? He feels useless and has a desperate need to feel worthwhile and to help. He takes chances to try to prove himself because he has such a need to feel valuable. There's an exchange that he has with Dalinar about this very thing in WoK which takes a turn for the sad very quickly, so I'll just let Renarin speak for himself here:

 

 

“I’ve been meaning to speak with you, son,” Dalinar said. “About the hunt last week.”

 

Renarin’s eyes flickered downward in shame, the edges of his mouth pulling back in a grimace. Yes, he did have emotions. He just didn’t show them as often as others.

“You realize that you shouldn’t have rushed into battle as you did,” Dalinar said sternly. “That chasmfiend could have killed you.”

 

“What would you have done, Father, if it had been me in danger?”

 

“I don’t fault your bravery; I fault your wisdom. What if you’d had one of your fits?”

 

“Then perhaps the monster would have swept me off the plateau,” Renarin said bitterly, “and I would no longer be such a useless drain on everyone’s time.”

 

“Don’t say such things! Not even in jest.”

 

“Was it jest? Father, I can’t fight.”

 

“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.” The ardents were very specific about that. Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did.

 

"You just did your best, picking a profession and an attribute of the Almighty to emulate. A Calling and a Glory, it was said. You worked hard at your profession, and you spent your life trying to live according to a single ideal. The Almighty would accept that, particularly if you were lighteyed—the better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had already.

 

Dalinar’s Calling was to be a leader, and his chosen Glory was determination. He’d chosen both in his youth, though he now viewed them very differently than he once had.

 

“You are right, of course, Father,” Renarin said. “I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I. Likely I will end up as citylord of a small town. Assuming I don’t tuck myself away in the devotaries.” The boy’s eyes turned forward.

 

I still think of him as “the boy,” Dalinar thought. Even though he’s now in his twentieth year. Wit had been right. Dalinar underestimated Renarin. How would I react, if I were forbidden to fight? Kept back with the women and the merchants?

 

Dalinar would have been bitter, particularly against Adolin. In fact, Dalinar had often been envious of Gavilar during their boyhood. Renarin, however, was Adolin’s greatest supporter. He all but worshipped his elder brother. And he was brave enough to dash heedless into the middle of a battlefield where a nightmare creature was smashing spearmen and tossing aside Shardbearers.

 

You'd prefer that he just sit back and feel useless as opposed to trying to do something about it? That's not an existence I would wish on anyone. Renarin has so many wonderful talents and is such a wonderful person. He deserves to feel useful and worthwhile and I am so very proud of him for rushing into even dangerous situations to try to find some way to prove himself. Especially when he does so to try to help those he cares about and his family. He wants to help them so much, he wants to make sure they're safe, and he's willing to risk himself in hopes that he might be able to do something to help.

 

Dalinar makes an interesting observation near the end of the book, when he sends Renarin off on an errand:

 

Renarin seems happiest when he's following someone's directions. Besides the obvious Bridge Four scenes, in the scene with him and Shallan when they're trying to figure out the Oathgate, we see him somewhat passively following Shallan's commands. I'm wondering if this is indicative of something systematic (e.g. as Truthwatcher) or just a result of his traumas. I don't recall having that impression about his character in WoK, though this observation didn't really click for me in WoR until Dalinar specifically mentioned it, either.

 

I'd say this is possibly a liiiiitle bit of a misconstruction. It's not that Renarin enjoys being ordered around persay, so much as it is the wanting to feel useful. He wants to contribute to the world around him. He wants to be able to do worthwhile things to help out. If someone gives him a task that he can do that is going to be helpful and actually something he can accomplish, he's going to relish that feeling and do it with happiness.

 

I don't think he sees the future. Just has crazy math probability mapping abilities.

 

Eugh. That seems... really terribly close to the "Autistic savant" cliche. Which is... kind of a gross and problematic trope. I'm almost completely sure Brandon wouldn't put something like that in. It'd be disappointing and in very bad taste, I think.

[Tarion]

Eugh. That seems... really terribly close to the "Autistic savant" cliche. Which is... kind of a gross and problematic trope. I'm almost completely sure Brandon wouldn't put something like that in. It'd be disappointing and in very bad taste, I think.

Didn't he already use it in Elantris?

And anyway, I think that it's more than just the "Autistic savantism" idea in Renarin's case.  

 

The setting already has drawn distinctions between using magic to see the future (Voidbinding) and using mathematics and intellect in order to predict the future (One is a certainty, the other is just a likely occurrence).  It's why the Stormwardens are accepted, after all.  It's a theme that continues with Taravangian.  Even at his smartest, where he's able to make such accurate predictions so far into the future, he's limited.  The future gets harder to predict as it goes out.  Which is why he's making use of the murders, because that gives a certain knowledge of the future, through an Unmade.  

 

I think it's far, far more likely that the Truthwatchers do this sort of thing than they do the one thing we've been told absolutely certainly is of Odium.  If nothing else, with all of his apparently Cosmere aware intellect and knowledge of the Nahel bond, Taravangian+ would have set out to find a Truthwatcher, rather than relying on the enemy for information.  The only reason I can think he wouldn't be doing that is because they wouldn't add new information - They'd be doing the same thing as him.  

 

I'm also interested to see what's going on with his epilepsy.  Kaladin noticed something unusual about it, but didn't have time to follow up on it.  His medical skills are pretty solid, so if he's noticed something it probably means there's something to notice.  Whether that means there's some underlying cause (that Stormlight is going to fix?  Or is the Stormlight exacerbating it?), or whether it means that he's been misdiagnosed with epilepsy because he's actually suffering from an acute case of magic, I'll be very interested to see.  

[Aleksiel]

Well, Hoid has hunches for the future, he knows where he is needed, though not why. Why can't Truthwatchers' ability to see the future be similar? Besides, Tanavast said he could see small glimpses of future, things that might be. And if Truthwatchers' spren are of Cultivation, then there is a solid explanation as Cultivation is better at seeing the future. 

[flinn]

idk how you can agree with Renarin, that it is a good idear to join the duel.

unless he could see the outcome of the duel, with him joning and without doing so.

 

its not like they cant hurt each other, and the opponents have nothing to loose.

 

 

if he can see alot of things from the future then it changes things.

 

 

but just from a normal perspective, thouse things are silly and dangerous.

 So what you are saying is, if your BROTHER was about to be killed by 4 people, you would stand and watch because you couldn't do anything anyway....

 

 I would be embarrassed to even say that, but hey, if that is your look on life, more power to you.

[Aminar]

Didn't he already use it in Elantris?And anyway, I think that it's more than just the "Autistic savantism" idea in Renarin's case.   The setting already has drawn distinctions between using magic to see the future (Voidbinding) and using mathematics and intellect in order to predict the future (One is a certainty, the other is just a likely occurrence).  It's why the Stormwardens are accepted, after all.  It's a theme that continues with Taravangian.  Even at his smartest, where he's able to make such accurate predictions so far into the future, he's limited.  The future gets harder to predict as it goes out.  Which is why he's making use of the murders, because that gives a certain knowledge of the future, through an Unmade.   I think it's far, far more likely that the Truthwatchers do this sort of thing than they do the one thing we've been told absolutely certainly is of Odium.  If nothing else, with all of his apparently Cosmere aware intellect and knowledge of the Nahel bond, Taravangian+ would have set out to find a Truthwatcher, rather than relying on the enemy for information.  The only reason I can think he wouldn't be doing that is because they wouldn't add new information - They'd be doing the same thing as him.   I'm also interested to see what's going on with his epilepsy.  Kaladin noticed something unusual about it, but didn't have time to follow up on it.  His medical skills are pretty solid, so if he's noticed something it probably means there's something to notice.  Whether that means there's some underlying cause (that Stormlight is going to fix?  Or is the Stormlight exacerbating it?), or whether it means that he's been misdiagnosed with epilepsy because he's actually suffering from an acute case of magic, I'll be very interested to see.

 

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Exactly my point. The Truthcallers are discussed as having very savantish sounding abilities. I don't think Renarin is anywhere near autistic enough for the Savant trope, but I think he could easily have an affinity towards numbers for the same reason Shallan has an afinity towards drawing. It's pretty clearly stated that Surgebinding does not allow seeing the future. Period. So why would Renarin? Remember when he started scratching numbers into the floor at the end, by the gate. Calculations. And frankly Autistic savants are a thing. Unlike Love triangles between good competent intelligent empathetic people who realize the damage the can cause to the people around them. Yet which one shows up in books more?

[Aleksiel]

Where is that statement saying no surge allows foretelling? Renarin said he sees, not that he calculates.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with Aleksiel on this one. You really need to provide a quote when you say something is that cut and dry because I don't remember it being said anywhere in the books that none of the surges allow future sight. The only talk about seeing the future is the dogma of the Voran church which we know is corrupted in this area.

[shadewolf]

Quick question, how old is Renarin? initially I thought he was around 21 roshar years, but now I feel like he's actually younger than kaladin.

[Aleksiel]

Quick question, how old is Renarin? initially I thought he was around 21 roshar years, but now I feel like he's actually younger than kaladin.

 

 20 in WoK

[taxilian he/him]

All other considerations aside, Renarin is an obvious candidate for a spren bond whereas adolin obviously isn't.

 

See the quotes mentioned here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5637-spiritual-aspects-and-the-importance-of-a-broken-soul/

 

We see several places in WoR that a "wounded soul" makes it easier and is perhaps even required for a spren bond to form.  In retrospect, this is perhaps that strongest argument I can think of that Lopen would be just a "squire" and not a full bonded knight, but I digress.  Renarin has spent his whole life feeling inadequate, feeling like he's not the man that he ought to be.  Whether you agree with his reasoning or decisions or not, you can't despute that he's been through a lot of hard stuff -- even if some of it is his fault, and regardless of where he lies on an autistic scale.  The point is that he has the requisite mental and spiritual wounds to let in a spren bond.

 

Adolin doesn't.  He's lived a relatively easy life.  Granted, that may well be changing, but up 'til this point he doesn't seem to have any of the trauma in his past that characterizes *all* of the other bonded people in the story.

[Argent he/him]

Very good observation, @taxilian. 

 

Now I want to know even more what was done to Jasnah even more...

[Dahak he/him]

true and thats why i believe that just wondering if there was anything concrete i might have missed

 

There was the point in the Oathgate where he started writing zeroes on the wall.

[PeterAhlstrom he/him]

 20 in WoK

Kaladin has turned 20 but Renarin is still 19 (all in Roshar years).

[Aleksiel]

Kaladin has turned 20 but Renarin is still 19 (all in Roshar years).

 

Huh. Yeah, I see now I got it wrong. I was a bit mislead by:

 

 

 

I still think of him as “the boy,” Dalinar thought. Even though he’s now in his twentieth year.

 

 I didn't read it right and assumed it meant he was already 20. Thanks!

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Didn't he already use it in Elantris?

And anyway, I think that it's more than just the "Autistic savantism" idea in Renarin's case.  

 

The setting already has drawn distinctions between using magic to see the future (Voidbinding) and using mathematics and intellect in order to predict the future (One is a certainty, the other is just a likely occurrence).  It's why the Stormwardens are accepted, after all.  It's a theme that continues with Taravangian.  Even at his smartest, where he's able to make such accurate predictions so far into the future, he's limited.  The future gets harder to predict as it goes out.  Which is why he's making use of the murders, because that gives a certain knowledge of the future, through an Unmade.  

 

I think it's far, far more likely that the Truthwatchers do this sort of thing than they do the one thing we've been told absolutely certainly is of Odium.  If nothing else, with all of his apparently Cosmere aware intellect and knowledge of the Nahel bond, Taravangian+ would have set out to find a Truthwatcher, rather than relying on the enemy for information.  The only reason I can think he wouldn't be doing that is because they wouldn't add new information - They'd be doing the same thing as him.  

 

I'm also interested to see what's going on with his epilepsy.  Kaladin noticed something unusual about it, but didn't have time to follow up on it.  His medical skills are pretty solid, so if he's noticed something it probably means there's something to notice.  Whether that means there's some underlying cause (that Stormlight is going to fix?  Or is the Stormlight exacerbating it?), or whether it means that he's been misdiagnosed with epilepsy because he's actually suffering from an acute case of magic, I'll be very interested to see.  

 

He did use it in Elantris somewhat, which was... eugh, as I said. 

 

I completely agree with what you're saying here. I want that Renarin's magic is disconnected from his autism. He's not magical because he's got autism, he's an autistic person who also has magic. That even though he's not neurotypical, he can still be a hero and can do amazing things. That's the kind of arc we want to see. 

 

And again, I like Taravangian's future sight being math and intelligence based because again, there's a magical aspect to it here. Taravangian is not autistic. And his abilities are due to a magical influence, not a divergent neurotype. I also really liked that Taravangian's compassion/intelligence thing was specifically a magical influence thing. Because that's another trope that can be gross sometimes: that intelligent people are cold and evil. I feel like by explicitly making these things magical Brandon is showing and saying that "things are not always this way normally, the magic is what's doing this." And those are good perceptions to break down.

[flinn]

There was the point in the Oathgate where he started writing zeroes on the wall.

000s meaning time was up. The everstorm had arrived. It was part of the countdown.

[The Silver Queen]

I think Renarin had his ups and downs like many of the other characters. He still had some great moments like trying to help his bother in the duel (despite his shardblade) and joining Bridge Four. I like all the Kholins (Jasnah being my favorite) and wished we got to know him better in WoR since we probably know the least about him.

 

edit: I forgot about Elhokar, so there is one Kholin I am not too crazy about.

Edited March 9, 2014 by The Silver Queen

[Seloun]

 

 

Renarin seems happiest when he's following someone's directions.

...

I'd say this is possibly a liiiiitle bit of a misconstruction. It's not that Renarin enjoys being ordered around persay, so much as it is the wanting to feel useful. He wants to contribute to the world around him. He wants to be able to do worthwhile things to help out. If someone gives him a task that he can do that is going to be helpful and actually something he can accomplish, he's going to relish that feeling and do it with happiness

 

I don't necessarily disagree with that interpretation - it appears to be consistent with what we've seen - but I don't believe we ever see Renarin being proactive. He often acts in support of other peoples' actions, but he's never in the leading role. Much of this may be simply because we haven't had a Renarin POV or even a POV with him as the focus. Still, I don't think we see him take individual action on his own initiative (that is - he wants to help of his own initiative, but he's always being told what he needs to do help or following someone else's actions). So he wants to help, but he often doesn't seem to know how.

[Aminar]

Where is that statement saying no surge allows foretelling? Renarin said he sees, not that he calculates.

 

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Syl says so. And the very tenants of Vorinism, the religion the Radiants were founded under do so. Combine that with Nightform as described in the epigraphs and it's pretty clearly stated that seeing the future is Voidbinding, not surgebinding. In addition Honor says he's not good at seeing the future, that's Cultivation's thing and Surgebinding appears to be pretty much an Honor thing at this point. I think Renarin can predict the future, not see it, and those are vastly different things. I can predict the future. I have on a multitiude of occasions, based on evidence and an understanding of probability. You can too. None of us can SEE the future though. Voidbinding can. Renarin has to calculate and guess, but his order is good at patterns. Much like Taravingian.

[Seerow]

Syl says so.

 

Page citation?

 

I only remember Vorinism ever mentioning foretelling the future, and Vorinism had some pretty major changes after the Heirocracy (remember: Foretelling wasn't against Vorinism before the Heirocracy. It was after it fell that it became a Taboo, because the Heirocracy used false foretellings to control the populace).

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I don't necessarily disagree with that interpretation - it appears to be consistent with what we've seen - but I don't believe we ever see Renarin being proactive. He often acts in support of other peoples' actions, but he's never in the leading role. Much of this may be simply because we haven't had a Renarin POV or even a POV with him as the focus. Still, I don't think we see him take individual action on his own initiative (that is - he wants to help of his own initiative, but he's always being told what he needs to do help or following someone else's actions). So he wants to help, but he often doesn't seem to know how.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue that he does take quite a bit of initiative actually. Sometimes it's reactionary: such as trying to help during the chasmfiend attack in WoK, or attempting to shore up the line in the battle as a shardbearer, or joining the duel to protect Adolin - which he did before anyone else. Everyone there knew that two more people could help Adolin out on his side, yet the first person to actually do so was Renarin, without even his Shardplate on to protect him. I think that shows a great level of initiative and bravery.

 

As for an action that he takes on his own without any sort of external prompting, I'll put up his joining Bridge 4. No one asked him to do that and he didn't do it for anything other than himself.  And he did this despite the fact that it was incredibly difficult for him, as Kaladin quickly realizes. His social anxiety and nervousness are near crippling, but he forces himself to confront his fears and be strong in order to do what he needs to do. He even leaves behind his stim box--which might have helped his anxiety--so that he can seem more focused.

 

Kaladin folded his arms, looking the youth over. Renarin looked anxious. Very anxious. He’d formed his hands to fists, though Kaladin could see no sign of the box Renarin often fiddled with when ner vous. He’d begun breathing deeply, but had set his jaw, and kept his eyes forward.

 

Coming to see Kaladin, to ask this of him, terrified the young man for some reason. He’d done it anyway. Could one ask anything more of a recruit?

 

In similar manner at the end of the book, he finally takes the initiative to reveal himself as a Radiant, even though this is even more terrifying than asking to Bridge 4. (Though we do see that Dalinar doesn't realize how difficult this is for him, unlike Kaladin does.)

 

“Four,” a voice said from the shadows of the stairwell. Renarin stepped up into the lit room. He looked at them, then shrank back.

 

“Son?” Dalinar asked.

Renarin remained in the darkness, looking down.

(....)

“Four orders,” Dalinar said, squeezing Renarin’s shoulder with pride. Storms, the lad was trembling. What made him so worried?

[Seloun]

As for an action that he takes on his own without any sort of external prompting, I'll put up his joining Bridge 4. No one asked him to do that and he didn't do it for anything other than himself.  And he did this despite the fact that it was incredibly difficult for him, as Kaladin quickly realizes. His social anxiety and nervousness are near crippling, but he forces himself to confront his fears and be strong in order to do what he needs to do. He even leaves behind his stim box--which might have helped his anxiety--so that he can seem more focused.

 

Well, that's the thing - I think joining Bridge Four was in fact for himself, not necessarily to help anyone else. I can see the argument that it was indirectly to help other people by trying to train himself to the point he can help other people, but I feel that is less explicit; it's not clear to me anyway that's what he's consciously trying to do. Also, the first thing Renarin says to Kaladin during his joining:

 

 

Renarin scrambled to his feet and saluted. “I would like to serve under your command, sir.”

 

and later

 

 

“You don’t have to set me to doing anything important,” Renarin said. “I came to you, instead of one of the other battalions, because most of your men spend their time patrolling. If I’m patrolling, I won’t be in much danger, and my fits won’t hurt anyone. But at least I can see, I can feel what it’s like.”

...

“I will obey your commands,” Renarin said. “Treat me like a new recruit. When I’m here, I’m not a prince’s son, I’m not a lighteyes. I’m just another soldier. Please. I want to be part of it. When Adolin was young, my father made him serve in a spearman squad for two months.”

 

“He did?” Kaladin asked, genuinely surprised.

 

“Father said every officer should serve in the shoes of his men,” Renarin said. “I have Shards now. I’m going to be in war, but I’ve never felt what it’s like to really be a soldier. I think this is the closest I’ll be able to get. Please.”

 

He wants to be part of it; structure, organization, knowing where he *fits* all seems to be important to Renarin.

 

 

I don't disagree that Renarin is more than willing to help people, e.g. Chasmfiend in WoK and arena scene in WoR. I'll also grant that those are times where Renarin shows initiative in the sense that no one has to tell him to get in there. But I guess 'initiative' was the wrong word - what I'm trying to say is that he doesn't really seem to be an independent actor. Again much of that might be due to the lack of PoV (it's going to be hard to see what he does when he's off by himself if we don't get to see what he's doing when he's off by himself), but so far it's a pretty big contrast to the other major protagonists. He seems to like being part of something bigger than himself and having something (person? laws? organization?) to follow.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Well, that's the thing - I think joining Bridge Four was in fact for himself, not necessarily to help anyone else. I can see the argument that it was indirectly to help other people by trying to train himself to the point he can help other people, but I feel that is less explicit; it's not clear to me anyway that's what he's consciously trying to do. Also, the first thing Renarin says to Kaladin during his joining:

 

 

and later

 

 

He wants to be part of it; structure, organization, knowing where he *fits* all seems to be important to Renarin.

 

 

I don't disagree that Renarin is more than willing to help people, e.g. Chasmfiend in WoK and arena scene in WoR. I'll also grant that those are times where Renarin shows initiative in the sense that no one has to tell him to get in there. But I guess 'initiative' was the wrong word - what I'm trying to say is that he doesn't really seem to be an independent actor. Again much of that might be due to the lack of PoV (it's going to be hard to see what he does when he's off by himself if we don't get to see what he's doing when he's off by himself), but so far it's a pretty big contrast to the other major protagonists. He seems to like being part of something bigger than himself and having something (person? laws? organization?) to follow.

 

Okay, I can appreciate that. I don't think it's a point to his detriment though. Not everyone has to be a leader or to do things all on their own. I think there's something to be said for wanting a place to belong and working to find it and fit in there.

[happyman he/him]

I don't disagree that Renarin is more than willing to help people, e.g. Chasmfiend in WoK and arena scene in WoR. I'll also grant that those are times where Renarin shows initiative in the sense that no one has to tell him to get in there. But I guess 'initiative' was the wrong word - what I'm trying to say is that he doesn't really seem to be an independent actor. Again much of that might be due to the lack of PoV (it's going to be hard to see what he does when he's off by himself if we don't get to see what he's doing when he's off by himself), but so far it's a pretty big contrast to the other major protagonists. He seems to like being part of something bigger than himself and having something (person? laws? organization?) to follow.

 

I would agree with this to an extent.  Social anxiety makes taking initiative much, much more difficult.  Having a pre-arranged order to fit in simplifies the decisions enormously and allows the person in question to focus on the details rather than getting overwhelmed by the bigger picture problems they can't focus on.

 

So I guess that the way you are describing Renarin is quite accurate.  I don't think he wants to keep it that way, though.  His joining Bridge 4 is a good sign that he is trying to change it, and trying to do so despite much bigger hurdles than the other actors. 

 

Edit:  For the sake of clarity, I would like to add that while I am probably not autistic to any unusual degree (I naturally have empathy and can read body language, intonation and the like instinctively), I have other issues with anxiety which have tended to make me very introspective and made it hard to take initiative.  I guess I empathize very strongly with Renarin in his struggles.  Once they were pointed out to me, I was like, o man, I have so totally been there.  Well done, man.  Well done.

Edited March 9, 2014 by happyman