[OB] Cracked Theory: Wit in the Epilogue

[Xaklys he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And the Spren could still have rejected him. 

He did say to the spren that he knew that he was not the one that the Cryptic wanted but considering the situation, it was not the time for the Cryptic to be picky.  He couldn't even physically see the spren until it came out into view, so it accepted Hoid to a certain degree.

 

4 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

Thanks. This makes sense. Is there any reference to this in any of the books? I need to read those again. 

Nothing super obvious in the other books himself (I have not read most of the novellas or Mistborn Era 2 so I can't speak for those), mostly in Stormlight do we see him perform multiple magic systems such as emotional Allomancy, Awakening, mentioning of at least his Third Heightening due to his perfect pitch.  

[Calderis he/him]

@TequilaJack Spoilers for all Cosmere obviously.

Spoiler

We know from Secret History he stole a bead if Lerasium and is most likely an Allomancer. He referenced Perfect Pitch to Kaladin in the jail cell, and awakened the doll, so he had at least enough breath for the second heightening. He has the Spren now. We have a WoB that he has unsealed metalminds. In the tenth anniversary edition of Elantris there's a scene with him and a Skaze in which we learn that he tried to become an Elantrian. He stole the Moon Scepter in The Emporor's Soul. He seemed to have some amount of the White Sand in a container in OB when he interacted with Shallan. There's probably more I can't think of at the moment. 

He's up to something. 

[TequilaJack]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

@TequilaJack Spoilers for all Cosmere obviously.

  Reveal hidden contents

We know from Secret History he stole a bead if Lerasium and is most likely an Allomancer. He referenced Perfect Pitch to Kaladin in the jail cell, and awakened the doll, so he had at least enough breath for the second heightening. He has the Spren now. We have a WoB that he has unsealed metalminds. In the tenth anniversary edition of Elantris there's a scene with him and a Skaze in which we learn that he tried to become an Elantrian. He stole the Moon Scepter in The Emporor's Soul. He seemed to have some amount of the White Sand in a container in OB when he interacted with Shallan. There's probably more I can't think of at the moment. 

He's up to something. 

That's awesome. Thanks. 

[TequilaJack]

I somehow think Hoid would be the real hero of cosmere. He kinds pulls strings in individual planets whilst working against Odium at far grander scale. At the end when it all comes together, it'd be Hoid leading the coalition with Kelsier, Dalinar etc maybe as his Generals. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by TequilaJack

[lDanielHolm he/him]

9 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

I somehow think Hoid would be the real hero of cosmere. He kinds pulls strings in individual planets whilst working against Odium at far grander scale. At the end when it all comes together, it'd be Hoid leading the coalition with Kelsier, Dalinar etc maybe as his Generals. 

I wouldn't be so quick to appoint Hoid as a hero.

[RShara she/her]

4 hours ago, lDanielHolm said:

I wouldn't be so quick to appoint Hoid as a hero.

Agreed.  Whatever Hoid is up to, it's not going to be as simple as that.

[Rainier]

13 hours ago, RShara said:

Agreed.  Whatever Hoid is up to, it's not going to be as simple as that.

Yup. You'd think that his speech to Dalinar about how he'd let this world (Roshar) burn to get what he wants would be a clue.

For what it's worth, I think he's trying to make himself into a Shard, with his own Intent. He's not going to reforge Adonalsium, or at least not all of it. Just enough for him to hold, and he needs enough investiture from each Shard to do it.

[Stark he/him]

So, as has been pointed out in this thread, Hoid cannot intentionally hurt people, but can be hurt himself.  This is evidenced by him getting the guy to punch out a tooth in the epilogue.  Hoid's intent was to get punched.  He got punched.  Other than loosing a tooth that will grow back, he suffered no other setbacks.  This is extremely interesting to me, because of Hoid's prohibition against harming others.

 

One of the best ways to break your hand is to punch someone in the jaw.  You can also get some nice scratches and infections from peoples teeth when you punch them.  Often, punching someone in the face hurts.  So if Hoid's intent was to provoke a punch, one that would likely hit his face and potentially hurt the puncher with his face, whose intent determines whether or not Hoid has a negative reaction to physical violence?

Is it the intent of the man to punch Hoid, causing harm to himself in the process?  If yes, than Hoid is fine, he caused no harm through his actions, and can continue.

Is it the intent of Hoid, being insulting and jumping the line to deliberately provoke a reaction?  A reaction of a magnitude that leaves a tooth knocked out, and the puncher with an injured hand?  If so, as Hoid, deliberately and with intent, provoked a violently physical reaction that may have resulted in injury to another living thing as a direct result of Hoid's intent, should Hoid have felt the consequences of harming another?  As he used his face to break that man's hand?

I would think Hoid, as the instigator of that situation, would have been responsible, in some way, for any harm the man's hand suffered?  Or is there a minimum threshold of violence required before Hoid suffers for his actions?  Or does the fact that the man could have chosen not to strike Hoid effect the outcome?  It could be argued that the man always had the choice, regardless of how provocative Hoid was being (and lets assume that he is uniquely capable of driving people to violence towards his person) to not strike him, and by choosing the path of violence, he absolved Hoid of any harm to himself he may have suffered when striking Hoid?

I feel that Hoid should have felt some degree of discomfort, having instigated the situation.

 

Please note:  This is not to say that a victim of violence is to blame for the violence visited upon them.  This is to say that someone who with willful intent directly antagonizes someone with a goal of inciting violence is in part to blame for the violence and harm that comes as a result of the antagonism, whether directed at themselves or someone else.  Normally, it is extremely difficult to prove the intent to incite violence, but in Hoid's case, he made it quite clear he was trying to provoke a certain response.

[Weltall]

Brandon was explicit that Hoid can mentally harm people and he can allow them to come to harm through inaction, so indirect harm via egging them on until they hurt themselves while hurting him falls neatly into that exception. He's not harming them directly, they're making the choice to accept the possibility of harm by hitting him, even if they only did it because Hoid provoked them.

A similar example from the book would be Jasnah's verbal smackdown of Amaram. Had he followed through and tried to attack her, it's made apparent from the circumstances that she'd have been considered legally and (for the most part) morally justified.in hurting or killing him even though she provoked the direct confrontation by insulting him and his mother. We'll leave the fact that he started the whole conversation aside as it doesn't really affect the ethical analysis. It's similar to the 'ethics homework' that Jasnah gave Shallan in Way of Kings and both examples could be applied to the situation with Hoid.

[Stark he/him]

@Weltall Thanks for that insight.  That does seem like an extremely fine hair to split, and Hoid is exploiting it fully.  But it makes sense that after countless thousand of years of experience, Hoid would be adept at finding loopholes.

 

I fully accept your explanation, while still feeling that, ethically at least, Hoid should have felt more than he did after instigating that reaction.  I mean, if we apply school yard logic, the supervising adult would have punished the puncher for punching, but also Hoid for instigating.  "You spent twenty minutes annoying him to get a reaction.  You got a reaction, what else were you expecting?"  Hoid was a few steps short of going full Tyer Durden "I want you to hit me as hard as you can."

 

I guess, I don't mind that Hoid can deliver verbal smackdowns, or refuse to aid people in danger of harm.  That's fine, though sometimes morally questionable.  But intentionally pushing someone towards action that would cause harm to them or others seems like it should have an effect.  Otherwise, nothing really stops Hoid from acting like Hannibal Lecter in the Silence of the Lambs and talking someone into committing suicide.  Or harming others.

 

And for me, until we learn more of his geas against violence, who placed, how it was worded, etc, well, I feel that should be a violation of hi precept to do no harm.

[Concept]

So I'm sorry for necromancing this thread, but there's something I wanted to ask and didn't want to make a new one in case it's a stupid question ...

Everyone here seems to be saying Hoid got his tooth punched out to have a better costume. He made his hair fall out by sickness and supressing his healing abilities to truly look like a beggar, to have the truth in the lie of being a beggar. However, after the punching scene, there's also this line in the epiloque:

Quote

"He adopted the act as he walked. The twitch of madness, the shuffle to his step. He squinted one eye and hunched over, changed his breathing to come raggedly, with occasional sharp intakes. He muttered to himself, and exposed his teeth - but not the one that was missing, for that was impossible."

So, he gets his tooth punched out. There's not a single line in the epiloque saying why. I just assumed, reading the epiloque and also reading here, that he did it for the costume. After all, even the little girl before "compliments" him on his strange teeth. It seems quite plausible he just did it for the costume.

But why, if he could made his hair fall out by himself, couldn't he just do the same to his teeth? Make them rot and fall out like his hair? I could accept an answer like "Just Hoid being Hoid" or something. But if he did all of this for his costume, for a convincing lie to slip by the Fused and to take the Cryptic - why did he get his tooth punched out if no one is able to see it after all?

"(...) exposed his teeth - but not the one that was missing, for that was impossible."

Why is it impossible to expose the missing teeth? Because it's one at the back of the mouth which you wouldn't see unless you look directly into his mouth? Then, if it's impossible to expose that anyway, why having it punched out in the first place?

I'm sure I'm reading to much into it and in the end, it's just Hoid being Hoid being serious but also silly most of the times, but maybe someone has an answer for that?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@Concept Yeah, you’re definitely reading too much into that. You can’t expose a tooth that isn’t there. 

[Concept]

Ah, thanks for the help. I just read it with the wrong meaning. Happens sometimes, english isn't my first and not my best language and with Brandon, translating can be tricky sometimes 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

On 1/6/2018 at 4:26 PM, Isilel said:

And it wouldn't surprise me if Hoid rocks a shard-flute when occasion demands it, from now on. Etc.

I support this.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

7 hours ago, Concept said:

Ah, thanks for the help. I just read it with the wrong meaning. Happens sometimes, english isn't my first and not my best language and with Brandon, translating can be tricky sometimes 

You’re welcome! 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I support this.

I also support this.