Fourth oath of the windrunners (spoilers)

[Natans he/him]

I'm in the "leading ship". Come on, Sanderson said that Kaladin had a gift to make squires (abnormal number that I translate in 1000 squires army ex-bridgeman), so some time he will have to put aside his "I'm not cut for leading thing" and go all the way to "if I don't do it nobody will",

Kaladin and his squires are the best defensive force against the Desolation that we have so far, he must face this and accept his place as a "general/leader" of the Radiants.

His little trip do Alenthekar will serve him to consolidate in as a leading figure, because he must go from hearthstone to the capital guiding who knows how many people =)




 

[DreamEternal]

Leading is natural to Kaladin. He never realy believed he wasn't good for leading people, he was always ready for it(at least when not locked into despair) and is actualy quite bad at obeying, not leading. For me it makes more sense for him to work further into protection, since leading is so natural to him and not sonething with as deep meaning to his life and his Order.

The secondary attribute should be just that, secondary. Something that is part of the order, but revolves around the primary one.

Edited August 3, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal she/her]

Leading is natural to Kaladin. He never realy believed he wasn't good for leading people, he was always ready for it(at least when not locked into despair) and is actualy quite bad at obeying, not leading. For me it makes more sense for him to work further into protection, since leading is so natural to him and not sonething with as deep meaning to his life and his Order.

The secondary attribute should be just that, secondary. Something that is part of the order, but revolves around the primary one.

 

I disagree that Kaladin has nothing to learn about leadership... So far, how has he achieved his leadership? By being an inspiring figure, by forcing others to emulate him, but this tactic can only work so far...He won't convince lighteyes to follow his lead by simply being hard-working. 

 

What does he still need to learn? First, he needs to learn he can't work alone. Being a leader implies having to share responsibilities and, more importantly, it means listening to advice and decide if they are worth following. So far, Kaladin has been the leader of a one-man's show, one where he was the star and nobody else was worthy of having a decent advice. He needs to learn to listen. Right now, he doesn't. He thinks he knows best, always. He needs to learn he may not always be right.

 

He also needs to learn worthiness comes in all flavor: lighteyes and darkeyes alike, but judging people based on their background won't bring him very far. He has made a great of work on that one, but I feel he has not completed his journey there. He needs to learn lighteyes can be effective leaders and darkeyes are not perfect: they can be as petty and cunning as the lighteyes he despises as these things have nothing to do with eye color.

 

He still needs to understand to fuller extend the world he evolves in. So far, his perception has been rather limited, a fact enhanced by his frequent inability to comprehend the larger scene of things. He needs to work on that one as a leader does not focus on a small group of selected few, but on the many.

 

He needs to understand trust is not something you give away because the person you interface with has the right eye color.... Since Kaladin seems about as gifted in decoding his interlocutors non-verbal language as Dalinar is, he needs to surround himself with people who can, such as Adolin, and listen to their advice. 

 

So all in all, I think Kaladin still has much to learn in terms of leadership. Simply because he managed to turn a band of miscreants into a cohesive unit does not mean he is ready for bigger scale leadership duties. So far, his growth has been geared towards expanding the range of people he needed to protect. Initially, he only wanted to protect those who befit his very narrow criteria (young teenage boys, his squad), but had to progressively enlarge it to enclose more people (the Kholin army, the king he hates). I think he is ready for new try-outs.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

What does he still need to learn? First, he needs to learn he can't work alone. Being a leader implies having to share responsibilities and, more importantly, it means listening to advice and decide if they are worth following. So far, Kaladin has been the leader of a one-man's show, one where he was the star and nobody else was worthy of having a decent advice. He needs to learn to listen. Right now, he doesn't. He thinks he knows best, always. He needs to learn he may not always be right.

Are you sure, you're not talking about Dalinar here? Edited August 5, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[kaellok he/him]

Are you sure, you're not talking about Dalinar here?

Except that armies listen when Dalinar speaks, while Kaladin sulks so hard he gets thrown into jail.

[maxal she/her]

Are you sure, you're not talking about Dalinar here?

 

Dalinar listens, but puts more credence in his own faith than is men's worthy opinion. He disregarded his son's warning because they contradicted his visions he had come to accept as an act of faith. Dalinar trusts and listens, but not always for the good reasons and he has a hard time taking his son words at face value. He does not need to learn to become a better leader, he is a good one, but he needs to become a more inspiring figure. He needs to become guiding and, more importantly, he needs to learn flexibility as the hard line will alienate him many people. 

 

Kaladin does not listen to advice, he does not seek it worst he believes he is always right. He never listens to an order and does as he sees fit with complete disregard to the hierarchy as he thinks it is worthless. He still has to overcome these to become a good leader. How can he hope others to respect HIS words as their superior when he is incapable of respecting the words of those that stands higher than him? Simply because he is worthy and hard-working? It may work with a bunch is darkeyed miscreants, but it sure won't work with lighteyes or higher profiled people. I am sure some his oaths will gear him in the right direction here.

 

To put it bluntly, Dalinar needs to learn to be more like Kaladin and Kaladin needs to learn to be more like Dalinar, though both are in dire need of Adolin's skill at reading people's intentions.

[Alfa he/him]

..and in a need of Renarin's skill at calmly analyzing the situation.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Alfa

[gbazz4 he/him]

Are you sure, you're not talking about Dalinar here?

 

I would have to respectfully disagree with this point. Dalinar is stubborn and feels he knows what is right, but he will listen to others and take their advice. I am doing a reread of WOK right now and just read yesterday 2 instances that illustrate this fairly well. 

 

1) Allowing Teleb to train a bridge crew to allow the army to move faster on plateau assaults.

(Chapter 26 WOK, in my paperback it is Page 456-457)

"Brightlord," Teleb Said, stepping up to him. "Have you given thought to my suggestion about the bridges?"

"You know how i feel about man-carried bridges, Teleb,"Dalinar said as the armor bearers locked his breastplate into place, then worked on the rerebraces and vambraces for his arms. Already, he could feel the strength of the Plate surging through him.

"we wouldn't have to use the smaller bridges for the assault," Teleb said. "Just for getting to the contested plateau."

"We'd still have to bring the chull-pulled bridges to get accross the last chasm," Dalinar said. "I'm not convinced that bridecrews would move us any more quickly. Not when we have to wait for those animals."

Teleb sighed.

Dalinar reconsidered. A good officer was one who accepted orders and fulfilled them, even when he disagreed. But the mark of a great officer was that he also tried to innovate and offer appropriate suggestions.

"You may recruit and train a single bridge crew," Dalinar said. "We shall see. In these races, even a few minutes can be meaningful."

 

2) When Adolin gets into an argument with Dalinar about his visions (WOK end of Chapter 24), Dalinar thinks about this for quite some time, and combined with feeling disgusted by killing Parshendi (WOK battle in Chapter 26), he decides Adolin is right and plans to abdicate as highprince in favor of Adolin (WOK, end of Chapter 28).

 

I feel like he does feel he is the best person to make a decision, and is strong willed, but he will listen to advice of others when he is convinced by them it is the right thing. In WOR i feel like i remember him listening to recommendations from Kaladin on occasions, but i can't recall the details right now. 

 

Furthermore, just based on how he runs his army i think it shows a good argument for relying on others. He can't do everything himself. So he trains his officers well and allows them to run everything under his overall direction. But he does delegate significantly. He also relies on Adolin to run things a lot throughout both WOK and WOR in an effort to prepare Adolin to be highprince. It takes him a while, but he uses Adolin and his dueling skills to try to accomplish his goals in WOR. And he relies on Kaladin to protect the King and his sons. so i think overall he shows a willingness to let others help. I think he just feels he needs to be in charge of what is going on. 

 

But that is my two cents. 

[DreamEternal]

..and in a need of Renarin's skill at calmly analyzing the situation.

I, as a Renarin fan, smiled upon reading this.

However, while he can be analytical about things like his father's visions(really, telling Dalinar that there may be a way of testing the visions may have been be the most important point in Dalinar's path to radianthood), Renarin is anything but calm during a dangerous situation, often making things worse in a misguided attempt to help(chasmfiend, arena). This also convinces me that part of his journey towards full radianthood will be learning when to stand down and when to step up.

Edited August 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal she/her]

...

 

Very good post. I agree with all of it.

 

When I said Dalinar put more credence in his faith than his men's opinion, I was referring to his lack of judgement towards Sadeas. Adolin has warned him on repetitive occasions and has asked him to not trust him so blindly, to be careful and what does Dalinar do? Give the complete control of the Tower battle thus trapping himself. Why did he act so blind? Because whereas he proved the visions were true, he failed to see he may not be interpreting them right. Even before that, he was so convinced they were true (faith), he was ready to based important decisions on them.

 

This has been one of Dalinar's recurrent weaknesses: he is not always a good judge of people (highlighted by Adolin) and he puts too much faith into his doctrine (as per his strict obedience to his code, his vision). He is also guilty of having trouble seeing his own son as a grown man (from his own admission, he still sees the little bouncing boy he was not long ago), having the tendency to dismiss more readily Adolin's opinions than those of his other men.....

 

Apart from that, Dalinar is an excellent leader, skills he aptly passed down to his son whom his proving just as capable as his father, in military operations to the very least. 

 

 

..and in a need of Renarin's skill at calmly analyzing the situation.

 

Well... Renarin is everything but... calm... In fact, it is his lack of calm that prompts him to jump forward and thus become a liability to his family members. The last scene in WoR illustrate how incapable Renarin is to deal with stressful situations: he lost it completely. Had he shared his burden with someone, surely he would have been more apt to withstand it. This is what he needs to learn: to talk to people, to open up, to stop being so secretive and to get rid of his tunnel vision of what useful means.

 

However, in a calm environment when put in front of a tangible problem, he is quite apt at reasoning whereas his brother gets wrapped up in his emotions. This is were his strength lay: solving things outside the main action. Thinking, finding solution, but in a calm, controlled environment. 

 

I, as a Renarin fan, smiled upon reading this.

However, while he can be analytical about things like his father's visions(realy, telling Dalinar that there may be a way of testing the visions may have been be the most important point in Dalinar's path to radianthood), Renarin is anything but calm during a dangerous situation, often making things worse in a misguided attempt to help(chasmfiend, arena). This also convinces me that part of his journey towards full radianthood will be learning when to stand down and when to step up.

 

Yes, this I agree. You explained it quite well. Renarin is not an action man, but one to act behind the scene.

[Alfa he/him]

Okay, I talked about the "calm" analytical skill outside of combat - but knowing, that Renarin never was raised as a soldier, this is forgivable for him. It's not unlikely that over time he will learn to stay calm even in dangerous situations.

 

EDIT: I think, that Renarin is an action man, more or less. He only hadn't have much chances to train usefull skills for it, due to a lack of controlable situations to train with.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Alfa

[maxal she/her]

Okay, I talked about the "calm" analytical skill outside of combat - but knowing, that Renarin never was raised as a soldier, this is forgivable for him. It's not unlikely that over time he will learn to stay calm even in dangerous situations.

 

EDIT: I think, that Renarin is an action man, more or less. He only hadn't have much chances to train usefull skills for it, due to a lack of controlable situations to train with.

 

I see Renarin as being the opposite of Adolin in that matters... Adolin is extremely level-headed and calm while being in a combat situation, even when facing 4 opponents and a near-sure death: he did not panic or very little. However, he gets riled up quite easily by the everyday events... If someone bad talks his family or make threats or poke him he over-reacts. He does the same when over excited about an event. All in all, he is very emotionally impulsive.

 

Renarin however does the contrary. He is extremely calm and level-headed when facing insults, injures and emotional threats. However, when he asked to take part into the action, he is usually inefficient and prompt to panic, though you do have a point in stating it could simply be a symptom of his lack of training. On my side, I tend to see Renarin as having difficulties dealing with actions, while being very good at dealing with emotional attacks. Adolin has the reverse issue where he is a man of action, but he is very vulnerable to emotional attacks.

 

It is strange how little the brothers seem to have in common.... or perhaps it is I am reading one of them wrong.

[JasonStormweaver]

"I will not have a sexual relationship with my friend's fiancee" 

 

i kid.

 

its probably like others have mentioned about him learning to let go...you can't protect/save everyone

Edited August 6, 2015 by JasonStormweaver

[Alfa he/him]

It is strange how little the brothers seem to have in common.... or perhaps it is I am reading one of them wrong.

My family is more or less like this. While I'm more a Renarin-type guy, one of my sisters is very similar to Adolin.

 

Either way, both Dalinar and Kaladin have a lack on analytic skills, and (especially Kaladin) difficulties to deal with insults.

[maxal she/her]

"I will not have a sexual relationship with my friend's fiancee" 

 

i kid.

 

its probably like others have mentioned about him learning to let go...you can't protect/save everyone

 

    Upvote for you, you made me laugh.

 

 

My family is more or less like this. While I'm more a Renarin-type guy, one of my sisters is very similar to Adolin.

 

Either way, both Dalinar and Kaladin have a lack on analytic skills, and (especially Kaladin) difficulties to deal with insults.

 

Well, my sister and I are very different, personality wise, but we do share some common interests: she too is more like Renarin while I am more like Adolin. Surely you have something in common with your Adolin-like sister... even if not in personality. I keep wondering what it is Adolin and Renarin shares... there HAS to be something for them to have develop such a complicity.

 

In the case of Kaladin, I think we can blame it on youth. He is very young still, so it is quite probable he will learn to atone his weaknesses. Nobody is perfect, but with age, we tend to soften our sharp edges. I expect Kaladin to learn better self-control when it comes to authority and insults.

 

I think Dalinar has very good analytic skills when it comes to battles, but he relies too much on his faith. He is a man with a strong respect for authority, for rules, for codes of conduct, for order. If he believes something is right, he won't second guess himself and he tends to interpret things rather literally. Take his visions... He decided, without having any proof, they must be real, so he takes them to the word and put them into practice. He never entertains the possibility he MAY be wrong about it, because it fits within his own personal set of beliefs. He never realizes he is merely listening to a disk: he thinks he is interacting with the man. He does not see something is wrong, worst he does not try to see if something is wrong.

 

Take his code... He reads it in a literal manner and does not allow any leeway or interpretation. He reads dueling should be prohibited for fear of injuring officers, so he bans dueling from his son. However, lighteyed duels are rather.... inoffensive. In all the duels we have seen, nobody has ever walked out of one with so much as a scratch. It is nearly impossible to injure a full Shardbearer: Adolin gets pounded on by multiple opponents and he does not get even close to being injured. The prohibition seem...... too intense, but this is Dalinar. If the code he decided to endorse states one thing, then he has to do it.

 

He reads soldiers must be recognizable in the case of an attack... so his men must wear their uniforms all the time, forever. Their locations is too far away to be attacked and even if it were, he does not need EVERYONE to wear a uniform at the same time. In the case of a feast, he needs key officers to be in uniforms and several soldiers, but he could have let the others dress differently, while keeping a distinctive sign such as a particular scarf. He could have installed a rotation within his men to decide who wears uniform when and who is allowed a bit of leeway and when....

 

All in all, Dalinar lacks flexibility. 

[Arondell]

I think Dalinar has very good analytic skills when it comes to battles, but he relies too much on his faith. He is a man with a strong respect for authority, for rules, for codes of conduct, for order. If he believes something is right, he won't second guess himself and he tends to interpret things rather literally. Take his visions... He decided, without having any proof, they must be real, so he takes them to the word and put them into practice. He never entertains the possibility he MAY be wrong about it, because it fits within his own personal set of beliefs.

 

All in all, Dalinar lacks flexibility. 

 

I think your overstating this a bit.  Much of Dalinar's part in the Way of Kings he was wondering if he was going mad.  He very nearly abdicated in favor of Adolin because of it.  Even when he decided not to he required Adolin to agree to depose him should he actually become mentally unstable.  It was not until Navani found objective evidence that his visions were real that he had any real confidence in the visions and his own sanity.  Even then the scene in Words of Radiance when Shallan reveals her abilities to him was quite telling in regards to Dalinar's self-doubts.

 

 

“I’m not mad,” he said, more to himself, it seemed. “I had decided that I wasn’t, but that’s not the same as knowing. It’s all true.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 948). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[maxal she/her]

I think your overstating this a bit.  Much of Dalinar's part in the Way of Kings he was wondering if he was going mad.  He very nearly abdicated in favor of Adolin because of it.  Even when he decided not to he required Adolin to agree to depose him should he actually become mentally unstable.  It was not until Navani found objective evidence that his visions were real that he had any real confidence in the visions and his own sanity.  Even then the scene in Words of Radiance when Shallan reveals her abilities to him was quite telling in regards to Dalinar's self-doubts.

 

Yes but do not forget that, before Adolin confronted him, he was willing to base his decision making on his visions...  It is was prompted Adolin to burst in front of his father: seeing him jeopardizing the future of their princedom by following visions that were more likely to be delusions than anything real. After Adolin confronted him, yes, he wanted to abduct in favor of him, but as soon as they prove the visions were true, he still insisted on trusting Sadeas because it was how he interpreted them. All in all, he was willing to blind himself to Sadeas general non-trusting attitude simply because of the visions. 

 

However, I agree I may have been exaggerating in my assessment of Dalinar. I have always found his insistence on following visions, whether they were true or not, rather baffling. 

 

So to me, Dalinar has a tad too much faith and he lets it interfere with his judgment making. He is also horribly inflexible, but this is not tied to the visions. These are the weaknesses he needs to work on.

[Arondell]

I suspect what you see as a certain level of inflexibility I tend to see as an adherence to military discipline under wartime conditions.  A truly inflexible mind would make for a terrible general.  In battlefield situations in particular Dalinar has shown quite a bit of flexibility  (e.g. Quickly changing from a defensive to offensive strategy when Rlain warned him of the danger of the singing.)  His understanding that he is going to have to become more of a politician.  His ability to quickly use new fabrials on the battlefield in effective ways.

 

That being said yes there is a certain inflexibility in some of his attitudes.  In some measure he binds himself with rules so that he does not fall back to the man he was.  He basically says as much on a couple of occasions.

[maxal she/her]

I suspect what you see as a certain level of inflexibility I tend to see as an adherence to military discipline under wartime conditions.  A truly inflexible mind would make for a terrible general.  In battlefield situations in particular Dalinar has shown quite a bit of flexibility  (e.g. Quickly changing from a defensive to offensive strategy when Rlain warned him of the danger of the singing.)  His understanding that he is going to have to become more of a politician.  His ability to quickly use new fabrials on the battlefield in effective ways.

 

That being said yes there is a certain inflexibility in some of his attitudes.  In some measure he binds himself with rules so that he does not fall back to the man he was.  He basically says as much on a couple of occasions.

 

Oh I agree about your analysis here: Dalinar is not inflexible when it comes to battle tactics or using new tools. It is not what I meant, I have not detailed my thoughts enough.

 

I meant he is inflexible in his attitudes towards the Way of Kings and his application of his code of life which is too stringent. I agree too he wrapped himself into all of these rules such as to control his self (he does say so), but he imposes them on his son and I feel it won't end well. He just seems to be unable to fall within the grey zone, always in the white or in the black. I feel he will need to learn a politician needs to make compromises and he has yet to master this art. He also needs to learn guiding people is taking time to explain them the reasons behind your rules and to allow them mistakes. 

[scifan he/him]

I suspect his next oath will have to do with Leadership as well... 

 

When the man who calls himself Taln showed up at Kohlinar, didn't he say something about the patron for Windrunners Jezrien would teach them leadership?  (seems like a fairly major aspect of the windrunners... ) 

 

We've learned Kal can fight like the wind it's self... but life isn't all about fighting and protecting... and he's exhibited some significant leadership capabilities from time to time...

[Navi]

I do not think the fourth oath has to do with protecting. The properties of the Windrunners are protecting and leading.

I think the latter two oaths have to do with leading. We know that squires are an important feature of Windrunners, and think many of his future powers are going to be squire-related. Hence leading.

Next two oaths may be a way to consciously bond squires

[stonedshaman]

What if its something like: i will teach those i protect to protect others

[The Invested Beard]

This thread actually makes me wonder if there's going to be some "Protect others from myself" thing coming from Kal in one of the next books. Nothing specific, just a vague feeling of impending doom...