[OB] Theory: The Shin have the most

[RShara she/her]

It's not killing someone that makes you a warrior/lower caste.  It's picking up a weapon.

[Calderis he/him]

39 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's not killing someone that makes you a warrior/lower caste.  It's picking up a weapon.

Yeah. Being bound to to an Oathstone seems to be a warrior thing, not just a Truthless thing. And for them that is specifically for taking up arms. 

They are very much against killing though. Szeth's conversations with Taravangian make that clear. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Calderis

[ghajan monk]

8 hours ago, RShara said:

It's not killing someone that makes you a warrior/lower caste.  It's picking up a weapon.

Thank you for the clarification. This still leaves big mystery of how or why the Shin could come up with an army capable of conquest. There has to be a reason strong enough to get thousands or tens of thousands of pacifists to pick up weapons and lose all their status in society. I just wonder whether collecting the dead shardblades is enough of a reason or if there is some factor we know nothing about that led to the war.

[Stark he/him]

11 hours ago, RShara said:

Ooohhh.  Man my brain is having trouble today.

Maybe - but it still remains a good point nonetheless.  The Shin are not responding to the Desolation.  If someone developed artificial shard tech, they'd likely do the same, ignore the reports as myth until they were forced to confront it, at which point it may be too late.

 

Edit: Just saw a later comment made this same point.  Thanks @The One Who Connects for making that point, and teaching me to read the whole set of new comments before responding...

[Leyrann]

Was rereading Words of Radiance, at some point Shallan is checking in on Taln by order of the Ghostbloods. Amaram appears (and Shallan hides) and Amaram tries to get something out of Taln regarding "a whole cache of [Shardblades]", which Taln seems to have mentioned once outside his mantra.

That does kind of imply that a cache exists somewhere, and this theory gives an idea of where that somewhere might be...

Edit: I just realized, or was this something that Dalinar had planted with Bordin as part of testing Amaram? That would be awkward for me... (or Brandon's hiding something in plain sight...)

Edited March 28, 2018 by Leyrann

[Stark he/him]

5 hours ago, Leyrann said:

something that Dalinar had planted with Bordin as part of testing Amaram?

Why not both?  Yes, Dalinar made it up to bait Amaram into showing his true nature.  But, that does not negate the possibility of Urban myths existing to indicate hidden caches of shards and other treasures.  How many myths do we have on earth about hidden vaults and caches lost to time?  And how many of those rumors had some basis in reality? And hidden vaults or treasures are not a new thing in Brandon's writing:

Spoiler

The atium cache, hidden from all by TLR.  The D'Denir statues hidden in plain sight.

Most scholars and generals would probably dismiss rumors of hidden caches as fiction, or the daydreaming fancies of the soldiers and lower classes.  But such a rumor ostensibly coming from one of the Heralds?  Now that would be paid attention too.

Now, if some of those rumors were based in fact, pointing at the Shin, cool.  We've just never seen it mentioned before, and honestly, they would be the least believed rumors.  Who would believe in a hidden cache of shards in Shinovar?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Something Szeth said adds credence to this theory. When he left Shinovar he said he had a choice, he could have taken Plate or Blade and chose Blade because it was more versatile.

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Something Szeth said adds credence to this theory. When he left Shinovar he said he had a choice, he could have taken Plate or Blade and chose Blade because it was more versatile.

Sorry, that's not what Szeth said, unless there's a passage I'm forgetting.

 

Quote

Szeth leaped backward as the Shardbearer swung upward with his Blade, slicing into the ceiling. Szeth didn’t own a set of Plate himself, and didn’t care to. His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other.

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

That's the passage I remembered. He didn't say exactly what I said but the gist of it is the same. He had to choose plate or Blade. Plate interferes with Lashings making it less versatile, especially for a skilled martial artist like Szeth. Saying he had to choose one or the other implies that choice is an option.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's the passage I remembered. He didn't say exactly what I said but the gist of it is the same. He had to choose plate or Blade. Plate interferes with Lashings making it less versatile, especially for a skilled martial artist like Szeth. Saying he had to choose one or the other implies that choice is an option.

The emphasis there was he had a choice between the use of plate, and the use of lashings. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Lashings granted by a blade. Honorblade specifically. And if the theory is correct and the Shin have been stockpiling shards then it makes no sense to take blades to hide away and leave the giant suits of magical armor behind. Shardplate is as uncommon as Shardblades at this point in the narrative, is it not?

[RShara she/her]

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Lashings granted by a blade. Honorblade specifically. And if the theory is correct and the Shin have been stockpiling shards then it makes no sense to take blades to hide away and leave the giant suits of magical armor behind. Shardplate is as uncommon as Shardblades at this point in the narrative, is it not?

Except the point is to not give away that they have those sorts of things.  And Szeth was made to take the Windrunner Blade because he was Truthless.  Why give or even offer him a choice between Blade and Plate?  The point was to make him be forced to follow his Oathstone, and kill when commanded, while still taking those murders on his soul.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Why would he imply a choice he didn't have? I always read that quote as he could have had Plate had he wanted it. The point of the Oathstone wasn't to murder specifically, just to be a slave to the world. Murder and mayhem was just what his employers most often had him do. He was to serve. Now what if the holder of his Oathstone wanted him to work in a mine? Plate would probably be a better fit for the enhanced strength alone.

[Calderis he/him]

@Bigmikey357 I always took that quote very very differently.

I never saw an implied choice. It starts with "Szeth didn't own plate and didn't care to." then goes on to explain the interference and how if he did have plate he'd have to make a choice. 

As for what his master's wish of him... Murder and mayhem are not what he was most often used for. He jumped from owner to owner for a year. Then he killed Gavilar and then jumped. Then multiple owners who always found him disturbing until he ended up with the Bav crime lord and then Taravangian. The majority never knew what he was capable of. 

The ability to fulfill his master's wishes was never the point of the Oathstone. The point was to make him obedient and take away his free will. His capability was not part of the punishment. As I go into in this thread, most Truthless did not have a blade. 

Szeth is a special case.

[Leyrann]

Okay, so we do actually have a hint hidden in Words of Radiance that this theory hasn't mentioned yet. From the Diagram (chapter 78 heading):

AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealisationlikeapricityTheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon (every second letter starting with the first)

In readable terms:

Ah but they were left behind, it is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where. Set off. Obvious. Realisation. Like a pri(ce?) city. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?

The first bold shows Taravangian is talking about the blades and the bond (so not the Honorblades, but the Shardblades) and the second straight up says they're with the Shin.

[Yata he/him]

11 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Ah but they were left behind, it is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where. Set off. Obvious. Realisation. Like a pri(ce?) city. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?

The first bold shows Taravangian is talking about the blades and the bond (so not the Honorblades, but the Shardblades) and the second straight up says they're with the Shin.

Actually the whole cit, point to the Honorblades not to regular Shardblades.

[Leyrann]

Just now, Yata said:

Actually the whole cit, point to the Honorblades not to regular Shardblades.

Honorblades don't have bonds.

[Yata he/him]

3 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Honorblades don't have bonds.

Honorblades bonds with everyone holding them. It's almost the exact same mechanism that happens with Radiants and Spren...Simply the Honorblade's Bond is very superficial compared to the Radiants' one and therefore we see the limits (high Investiture's consuming and unability to heal Spiritual Wounds)

EDIT: Sources
 

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

source

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

source

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Yata

[Leyrann]

8 minutes ago, Yata said:

Honorblades bonds with everyone holding them. It's almost the exact same mechanism that happens with Radiants and Spren...Simply the Honorblade's Bond is very superficial compared to the Radiants' one and therefore we see the limits (high Investiture's consuming and unability to heal Spiritual Wounds)

EDIT: Sources

What reasons are there to assume Mr T was talking about Honorblades over that he was talking about Shardblades? I would say that, if it doesn't talk about Shardblades, it's unspecified what the Diagram is talking about.

[Yata he/him]

5 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

What reasons are there to assume Mr T was talking about Honorblades over that he was talking about Shardblades? I would say that, if it doesn't talk about Shardblades, it's unspecified what the Diagram is talking about.

Mainly because the latter part of the cit.

Whatever Mr. T were talking about was something so important to manipulate Shin Society and exploiting a Truthless to get one. To craft a Weapon (not weapons)

If it were regular Blades, it will not be a big deal to gain a single Shardbearer. The Diagram showed the resources to have both Shardblades/plates and (much rarer) Soulcasters.

I can't really define a Shardbearer as "can we craft a weapon ?" material

[Stark he/him]

4 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Ah but they were left behind, it is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where. Set off. Obvious. Realisation. Like a pri(ce?) city. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?

This could point to the Sets, but I'm inclined to follow @Yata's line of thought that this part of the diagram points to the Honorblades.  Especially given how much effort the diagram put into getting a hold of one to donate to Odium.

 

But that does not preclude the possibility that this line of the diagram could serve dual purpose.  Apparently the damnation thing was flexible enough that Mr T could shred it and reassemble it in a different conformation to get a new and entirely valid set of instructions...  SO this one line doing double duty is possible, but still a bit of a stretch.  I think it is more honorblade than hidden stash of Plates and Blades.  But thanks for the evidence none the less, I had forgotten about this line!

[Yata he/him]

28 minutes ago, Stark said:

But that does not preclude the possibility that this line of the diagram could serve dual purpose.  Apparently the damnation thing was flexible enough that Mr T could shred it and reassemble it in a different conformation to get a new and entirely valid set of instructions...  SO this one line doing double duty is possible, but still a bit of a stretch.  I think it is more honorblade than hidden stash of Plates and Blades.  But thanks for the evidence none the less, I had forgotten about this line!

Possible but I find hard to believe Mr. T need to explicit say something like "Ah but they were left behind, it is obvious from the nature of the bond. " as a revolutional fact when the Shardblades are confirmed by common knowledge to be left behind (because the modern Rosharans have some of them)

[RShara she/her]

I'm with Yata, I think it's clear that T was talking about the Honorblades.  He wouldn't need to get a Truthless created just to get his hands on another Shardblade.

 

(Also, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apricity)

[+robardin he/him]

On 3/29/2018 at 0:28 PM, RShara said:

I'm with Yata, I think it's clear that T was talking about the Honorblades.  He wouldn't need to get a Truthless created just to get his hands on another Shardblade.

 

(Also, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apricity)

Which also implies that (a) Truthless Shin are always given an Honorblade, if not the Windrunner one, and (b) there must have been such Truthless before, for Taravangian to know about it (he is educated enough to speak Shin and know some of their proverbs, so it may not be widely known, but still something that has precedence, or at the very least, is documented somewhere as A Thing That Would Happen To A Shin).

Also that (c) Taravangian engineered Szeth's becoming a Truthless, which has to do with some kind of "blasphemy" about the return of the Radiants and the Voidbringers.

Whether or not the Shin are custodians of a massive hoard of Shardblades and Shardplate, I think one must exist somewhere.

I have also wondered why the KRs in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance forswore their oaths in the way that they did, by summoning their Blades before breaking their oaths. When Kaladin "killed" Syl in Words of Radiance, she just kind of faded away and got locked, broken-minded, in the Cognitive Realm. Combined with Dalinar's vision, I always thought that implied the Radiants of the Recreance intentionally left their Shards behind for anyone to grab, summoning them as Blades in the Physical Realm and THEN killing them, instead of just leaving them broken in the Cognitive Realm.... Like they WANTED to unleash unbounded Shardblades on the world.

On the other hand, Kal hadn't advanced enough yet to summon her as a Blade. Maybe it's just something that would happen to a spren whose Radiant is past the Third Ideal and breaks their vows.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

15 minutes ago, robardin said:

a) Truthless Shin are always given an Honorblade,

Quote

Questioner
Are all Truthless given Honorblades when they're cast out, or is Szeth a special case?

Brandon Sanderson
Szeth is a special case.

Source.

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

Also that (c) Taravangian engineered Szeth's becoming a Truthless,

Quote

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)
Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)
Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

Source.