Stormlight archive Tv/Movie series

[Arondell]

My general feeling on animated vs live action is fairly neutral.  That being said any production should try to be as faithful to the source material as possible.  Yes, that does include casting.  I must admit I find the idea of encouraging the financial success of such an endeavor by essentially catering to "the inherent racism of our time" to be...distasteful.    I would rather not have it happen at all then have that happen.

[Dellexe he/him]

OK, my personal opinion is that I want a film/TV adaptation of Stormlight Archive to be successful. I'm prefacing the rest of my post with this because it is the driving force behind my view that a live-action adaptation would be better. I'd also like some of Sanderson's work to be made mega-popular, like Game of Thrones has done for a Song of Ice and Fire.

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I like anime. I really do. I'm currently watching Bleach and occasionally watching an episode or two of Legend of Korra. Last Airbender was my favourite TV series for a while. That said, I cannot connect with characters displayed in anime nearly as easily as I can with characters in live-action series. Animated faces cannot display the full range of human emotion a talented actor can achieve, which I feel is necessary in the case of several Stormlight Characters. Kaladin's troubles and depression, or better yet, the look on Szeth's face as he is forced by his oath to kill, just wouldn't be fully captured in a animated format, in my opinion. I also concur with the above opinion's on the majority view on anime. Most people think anime is for children or for laughs; it cannot be serious. Though these people are horribly wrong and really need to expand their horizons, it remains that anime will, for the foreseeable future, never be quite as popular as a well-done live action adaptation.

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For a project such as the Stormlight archive, budget is important, whether it is an anime or live action. Sure, an anime would be cheaper, but it would still have several things most anime that I've seen don't have. It would need a large cast of talented voice actors. Stormlight is a BIG series, with so many important and distinct characters. It would also require a huge art department in order to portray all the various locales and creatures of Roshar. And I still come back to my previous points: Anime is not as impactful as live-action, and is not as popular.

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Stormlight needs to be popular in order to maintain itself. Though advancements in technology have allowed the impressive landscapes of Roshar to be produced in CG, it would require a large budget comparable to Game of Thrones, which means it would require a similarly large following. This is definitely achievable with the proper network and proper marketing, combined with the rich atmosphere and cinematic nature of Stormlight Archive. The budget necessary to produce a well-made Stormlght Archive in live action is feasible if it garners enough attention. 

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Lastly, casting. I personally don't care whether or not the characters look exactly like how they're supposed to look in the books. I care more about keeping them close to the same age they're supposed to be and that they are talented enough to play the part; not that they look the part. I'd rather have an actor who is completely whitewash, looks nothing like how Kaladin is supposed to look (but is the right age), but can portray the role and character well. If they find a guy who looks like Kaladin and can perform the character very well, AWESOME. If they find a character who looks exactly like Kaladin, but sucks at acting, or can't portray the character, then I wouldn't enjoy the show, and would honestly probably stop watching it after a certain point. This criteria of mine extends to all the major characters.

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Sorry if I annoy anyone with my opinions, but I will stand by them and my reasoning.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Okay I did not make this clear in my last post, what made me mad was things like "anime is a terrible idea".  Let me be clear, I would love a live-action adaptation.  I don't have an issue with people who want one.  In a perfect world we would have one, there is no denying that there is a lot you can do with live-action that can't be done with animation, but that doesn't make it a superior medium or make it the most practical option for the real world.  What I do have an issue with is people looking at my suggestion of an alternative, potentially more pragmatic, medium (suggested in an effort to avoid some issues a live-action adaptation would/could have), which I genuinely think is a great idea for reasons I have already discussed, and saying "No, that is a terrible idea, anime is so juvenile.  There's no way it could be popular in the mainstream."(I apologize for the paraphrasing but this is the gist of what is coming across)  Pardon me for feeling attacked.

 

Also of course changes have to be made in an adaptation, that is just a fact.  I guess I just prefer those changes to benefit the story in some way.  I'm sorry but white-washing the cast wouldn't benefit the story at all.

 

And again the preference for live-action is not hurtful.  What I would say was hurtful is a young person of color who reads the book is so excited about there being people who look like them being super awesome knights and stuff and being really excited to watch the live-action adaptation... only to see that it is all a bunch of white people.  Do you get how that kid would feel?  It might not make a difference to you, but it certainly would to that kid.  This is an important issue, and I feel passionate about it.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

@WeiryWriter

 

I apologize if I caused any offense Weiry. It certainly was not my intention. I was trying to communicate what I saw as the best way to get this series that clearly both of us love (otherwise we would certainly not still be posting on this topic 6 pages in) made into an equally awesome filmed adaptation. 

 

I did not picture the cast as being Asian when reading the books. It actually came as a rather large surprise to me to read that from Brandon. I pictured them as just being tan. So it isn't that big a leap for me to see white actors playing the parts. However I can see how it would be difficult to hear that for someone of colour particularly since non-whites aren't usually very well represented heroic fantasy. 

 

That said, I do still stand by what I said, only wishing to have been a bit more tactful in how I said it. I don't think it's a good thing that something like this would require a mostly white cast to be successful. I think it really speaks alot to the inherent racism of our times. But it is sadly the truth. And for something this big, it needs to be super successful and popular in the mainstream or it will never get made. The budget required would be astronomical, on the scale of GoT or higher given the non-earth landscapes and greater amount of CGI. If it is not incredibly popular among mainstream western culture, it will just flop. That will mean making some concessions. And in today's culture, one of those sadly necessary concessions will be a mostly white cast. It's not right, but it is reality. And as for benefiting the story, I'd say it getting made at all certainly benefits the story over it not getting made for reasons of racial casting.

 

As for anime, I personally don't like anime. I've never like the Japanese animation style. It just doesn't resonate with me. I have many friends who do like it and more power to them. However, what we all can agree on is that anime is not mainstream popular. It's still seen as a kid's thing. I know fully well that isn't necessarily true, but perception is what will cause a project to succeed or fail. If I heard about an awesome new fantasy action series coming to STARZ, Showtime or HBO called The Stormlight Archive, I'd probably go check it out and see what the fuss was about. If I heard about a new anime series, likely airing on Cartoon Network if it airs anywhere at all in America called The Stormlight Archive, I'd probably think, "Eh, another hokey anime. Pass," and never think about it again. I'm not saying anime is a terrible medium and should not be produced. It's not to my tastes, but that isn't the point. I'm saying that it isn't popular enough.

 

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Now a few others here have criticized some of my casting thoughts on age grounds as well. I'll admit many of my choices are far older than they are portrayed in the books. However, age is another thing to right out the window in most fantasy adaptations for a simple reason. We in the modern western world cannot really grasp the idea of a 12-15 year old going to battle and fighting for his life. We read about it but it kind of just falls away. In much the same way, we don't really think about 13 year old girls getting married and having children by the time they're 14 or 15. However genre-appropriate it is, it just sets us off the wrong way. This is why Game of Thrones aged all the characters between 5 and 10 years each. It was shocking at first to see on the screen, but you get used to it. 

 

The other reason is that these stories often focus on a young person or people. However, most of the good experienced actors are not that young, and it is a ridiculously huge risk to cast an unknown in such a pivotal role no matter how good they appear at auditions. Speaking as a relatively young, unknown actor who is usually pretty good at auditions and usually gets callbacks but never gets cast, I can personally attest to this. Pinning your new and very expensive series on the talents of people like Ben Daniels, Richard Armitage and Jeremy Irons is a hell of a lot safer  bet than pinning vast sums of money on the chance that 3 unknowns all happen to pay off. Game of Thrones is mostly filled with reasonably known actors, and yet that show is seen as still having taken insane risks in its casting, given that Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner, and Jack Gleeson were all pretty damnation unknown, and most of the story is focused around one or more of those roles. It's really awesome that the risk paid off that time, but almost no casting director is going to take the kind of risks that they got away with. It's just too big a chance.

 

For a combination of these two reasons, it is quite common for film portrayals of fantasy characters to be aged up a few years. Think of it as percentages of life. When the average life-span was 40-45, you could easily imagine a 20 year old looking beaten down and weather-worn having seen battle, watched his friends die and being a gloomy, grumpy bastard of a veteran (Kaladin at the beginning of Way of Kings). However, to communicate that idea to an audience of modern people who see 20 as really still a kid in most ways, it just is not going to convey properly to see a 20 year old on the screen, no matter how good an actor he is. There is a cultural block. Richard Armitage may be a bit too old at 44, but, you're going to want someone at least in his late 20s if not 30s for Kaladin to convey the right image on screen. He also needs to give an aura of command after he finds himself, and there are not many 20-somethings who will be able to accurately portray that. 

 

Age of actors is more about comparative age anyway. Set a new baseline and work from there. If you use a 35 year old actor for Kaladin, then use a 55-60 year old actor for Dalinar instead of a 45 year old one, and a 25-30 year old actor for Adolin and a 22-25 year old actor for Renarin. Comparisons are far more noticed than objective ages unless they're REALLY obviously off. Also, don't count out an actor from being able to play roles outside their own age. Most actors (other than child actors obviously) have a solid working age range of about 5-10 years in either direction of their actual age. Some have more and some less based on their distinctive looks, but their actual age is not really that important. Let's not forget that the most famous portrayal of Peter Pan was done by a 47 year old woman (Mary Martin in the 1960 film).

[maxal she/her]

And again the preference for live-action is not hurtful.  What I would say was hurtful is a young person of color who reads the book is so excited about there being people who look like them being super awesome knights and stuff and being really excited to watch the live-action adaptation... only to see that it is all a bunch of white people.  Do you get how that kid would feel?  It might not make a difference to you, but it certainly would to that kid.  This is an important issue, and I feel passionate about it.

 

I will react to this and I hope it will come alright. This is a touchy subject. For me, colored people are black people. It may be a false assumption on my part, but when I hear the term I associated it to "black". However, there are few black people in SA.

 

In fact, I do not recall any character (main characters)  being explicitly described as "colored". I recall Brandon describing them as "Asian or sorts", but Asian are not black nor do I consider them as "colored" people and the book is not so clear on the matter. I also have many Asian friends and none looked colored to me (in fact some are nearly white skinned)... Worst, many of them have children with white men and the children tend to look more white than Asian. They do retain some Asian likeliness (eyes mostly and a slightly very subtly tanned skin), but an untrained eye may take them as white. So when you say colored people identify with those colored characters, it is strange to me. Now, I may be extremely wrong in my understanding, but see, as a reader, I have never identified our main crew as "colored" people, based on my perception of what a "colored" person is.  And again it may be I am wrongly associating the word to black, so it could be we are simply arguing on wording here. The fact remains that I see most characters as my friend's children: mixed Asian with features ranging from full Asian to almost white.

 

I tend to see the darkeyes are more pure and the nobles as more mixed. Alethki nobles have extremely mixed bloodlines. I therefore would not expect them to look 100% Asian. Shallan, Adolin and Renarin are those I see as more white as they clearly have a very mixed blood line. I just cannot picture Shallan as Asian: I see her as the picture in WoR and she does not look Asian one bit.

 

Therefore, if they come up with a 100% Asian crew and they just die some Asian actor blond to play Adolin and another red to play Shallan: I will be sorely disappointed.

 

And strangely, I have always pictured Rock as black. Do not ask me why, but in my head, he is this tall black man with reddish hair. I know, he is not described as such, but somehow my brain has decided black worked better. I have a hard time seeing him as white, so yeah some liberties can be taken... I would not mind seeing a few more black people in there.

 

This is why I think we could work with a mixed casting. I believe it would be what is most representative.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

And strangely, I have always pictured Rock as black. Do not ask me why, but in my head, he is this tall black man with reddish hair. I know, he is not described as such, but somehow my brain has decided black worked better. I have a hard time seeing him as white, so yeah some liberties can be taken... I would not mind seeing a few more black people in there.

 

Rock is the only one I pictured as being really anything other than a white guy while reading the books, and him I pictured initially as Polynesian (probably something to do with the sound of the Horneater language), but then on the reread picked up that Horneaters have red hair, and that just got really confusing. On the second read through I started picturing the Horneaters as Scottish (big people with red hair from the highlands) and it worked sort of well. And some part of me really also just wants to hear Robbie Coltrane say Numuhukmakiaki'ailalunamor. 

 

Also

Take a look at the cover art. Kaladin and I'm not sure who the other one is, but I think it's Szeth, are not black. They aren't Asian either. Kaladin looks tan but both of them look like white guys. Now I know Brandon has said that he pictures the Alethi as Asian/Pacific Islanders. However clearly even the art department at Tor can't accept this and needed white guys for the book covers. Either that or there is some internal conflict or miscommunication between Brandon and his artists. In either case, it highlights my point, sad though that point is.

[maxal she/her]

Rock is the only one I pictured as being really anything other than a white guy while reading the books, and him I pictured initially as Polynesian (probably something to do with the sound of the Horneater language), but then on the reread picked up that Horneaters have red hair, and that just got really confusing. On the second read through I started picturing the Horneaters as Scottish (big people with red hair from the highlands) and it worked sort of well. And some part of me really also just wants to hear Robbie Coltrane say Numuhukmakiaki'ailalunamor. 

 

This is funny how our brains sometimes end up portraying the characters.... I have no idea why I keep seeing Rock as black. Really. I grasped he had red hair on the first read, but somehow, my brain kept thinking black man with red hair was cool. Dunno.

 

As for the age thing, I think we are going to disagree. Most of the plot revolving around the main crew is happening because they are young.

 

Adolin is very immature: it wouldn't work if production ages him to his thirties. When WoK starts, he is still in training with Dalinar, again it wouldn't work if he is aged to his thirties. In fact, most of the plot revolving around Adolin happens because he is young and inexperienced. Cast him with an older actor and you are going to lose the playful naive aspect of him, you are going to lose the boy admiring his father persona. In fact, his whole relationship with Dalinar would be different if he were 10 years older...

 

Kaladin is not as immature and probably looks older then his 20 years old. However, I still do not think he would work as a thirty something man. Dalinar would not behave the same with him if he were older. Kaladin would not behave the same towards both Adolin and Shallan if he were older. The shouting match between Kal and Shallan would lose all its flavor if it is rendered by thirty years old actors. It would not be believable because these scenes are caused by their young age. They are teenagers, really and they are acting like such.

 

Renarin is a boy. He is 19, true, but he looks younger. He is the one character I feel should really be portrayed by a teenager.

 

GoT is a different matter: most of the kids were under 16 years old. Casting young teenagers or children is hard, not to mention they age rapidly. I thus understand why they made them look older as the aging would be less apparent as the series progresses.

 

SA young crew are not children, but late teenagers / young adults. These are easier to cast and I do believe there are talented 20 years actor out there. I disagree they need to be known or established. The young crew should be played by young unknown actors. You get your experienced actors to play the older dudes such as Dalinar, Jasnah, Navani or Sadeas.

Edited September 20, 2014 by maxal

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Some notes:

 

"People of Color" refers to pretty much everyone who isn't White, it does not refer exclusively to people of African decent, it includes Asians, Native Americans, Indians, etc.  It is different from "Colored people" which does refer to people of African decent.

 

There is nothing wrong with not realizing what the characters actually look like, I certainly pictured everyone as white when I first read WoK.  The important thing is what you decide to do when you find out their canon appearances.

 

Brandon has said that Shallan, and probably the Horneaters, would look more like a Caucasian/Asian mix.

 

The cover art, and the interior piece with Shallan, which were done by Michael Whelan, are not canon, Brandon has little real control over them.  This is how Dalinar's blue cloak wound up being red on the cover of WoK.  I know people who were very angry with the cover of WoR because it white-washes Kaladin.

 

As you say Western culture has issues with race and at this point it would be unlikely for a primarily non-White cast to be popular.  Recasting a significant portion to be White however is not a solution, that is just perpetuating the race issues.  I get that you are just trying to adapt to the "realities" of Western media but if we don't challenge those realities they're never going to change for the better.

[kaellok he/him]

@killersquirrel

 

If there are significant changes to be made in order to make a live-action adaptation of the books, then it should be because it directly benefits the story--not just because it means that it can get made.  Let's take a look at The Hobbit movies.  Yes, 1 book, 3 movies, with tons of extra stuff thrown in.  Adding a new, strong female protagonist in Tauriel was a really good idea for both commercial (selling tickets) and story reasons.  Adding a really poorly done romance between Tauriel and Kili (and that romance being at least one of the major reasons for adding a female character) is a bad idea.  Having Legolas standing around looking like he has terrible indigestion doesn't actually serve any purpose, and takes away from the enjoyment of the movie from those who read the books. 

 

Much of the cast of characters in WoK is already appropriately aged for any sort of live adaptation.  Shallan is the youngest of the major characters at 17 at the start of WoK (of course, significant exception to flashback scenes).  Even with your arguments, I see no reason to 'age' them 10-15 years just to make things 'easier' for those in charge of casting.  There is little benefit to the story for this aging process.

 

Regarding the actual casting, again, I see no reason to white-wash the cast in the hopes it makes the show more successful.  I don't care if it is successful.  Knowing that 200 million Americans watch the show every week for 5 years isn't going to make me enjoy it more.  I realize that I am very strange in this way, but the popularity or commercial success of something means exactly zero to me.  If these decisions create a better, more enjoyable story--then do them.  Absolutely.

 

But, why should we compromise on a fantasy that has zero chance of being made into a reality anyway just for the sake of it having a slightly higher chance of possibility?  I mean, honestly, does anyone think that they're going to look at this thread in this forum for casting decisions should that ever become a reality?  Why compromise with what we want?

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

Regarding the actual casting, again, I see no reason to white-wash the cast in the hopes it makes the show more successful. I don't care if it is successful. Knowing that 200 million Americans watch the show every week for 5 years isn't going to make me enjoy it more. I realize that I am very strange in this way, but the popularity or commercial success of something means exactly zero to me. If these decisions create a better, more enjoyable story--then do them. Absolutely.

Knowing that 200 million Americans are watching won't make me enjoy it more either, but it will make it get renewed for a second season/made at all in the first place, whereas if that doesn't happen it won't be, then no one can enjoy it.

@Weiry

I was not aware of the controversy over the cover art or the fact that it was not done by the usual artist who works closely with Brandon. As for the idea of "whitewashing" the cast, I agree there should absolutely be more things that try to shift us away from that stereotype and towards a better inclusion for all actors. However, I know what that process will look like and it will involve a lot of projects failing before a few succeed anyway and slowly the perception will change. I have confidence it will happen, but it won't happen fast. And in the meantime, I'd rather not have something I really love and would pay enormous amounts of money to get to see on screen be written off as one of those early test cases for the movement. I don't want an adaptation of this that could be so amazing martyred for the sake of change. I'd like to actually watch the show. I don't give a damnation about the colour of their skin for this piece, I'd watch it if they had an entire cast of talking bears. However, that's because I love this series already. Most of the mainstream will not feel that way, sad as it is. And at this point, though I think shifting the cultural viewpoint on the matter is a very good thing, at this point I'd really rather not sacrifice something I care so much about for the sake of making a point.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

It's incredibly rare for authors to have any say over their covers, that's all decided by the Marketing people.

 

And there's a simple solution that is better than white-washing the cast so you can have it now.  We just wait.  Let other projects be the "test cases" you describe.  Technology would continue to improve/get cheaper as well.  And more books would be out so the adapters would have a fuller idea of the story.  As you say the skin color doesn't matter to you, but it certainly matters to others.  Why should your opinion over rule theirs just to make it come out sooner?

[maxal she/her]

Some notes:

 

"People of Color" refers to pretty much everyone who isn't White, it does not refer exclusively to people of African decent, it includes Asians, Native Americans, Indians, etc.  It is different from "Colored people" which does refer to people of African decent.

 

Thanks for the precision. As I said, I have always assigned this designation to black people.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with not realizing what the characters actually look like, I certainly pictured everyone as white when I first read WoK.  The important thing is what you decide to do when you find out their canon appearances.

 

Brandon has said that Shallan, and probably the Horneaters, would look more like a Caucasian/Asian mix.

 

The cover art, and the interior piece with Shallan, which were done by Michael Whelan, are not canon, Brandon has little real control over them.  This is how Dalinar's blue cloak wound up being red on the cover of WoK.  I know people who were very angry with the cover of WoR because it white-washes Kaladin.

 

I am very well aware of Brandon's description of his characters. However, he did not seem fit to include them within the books... Truth remains there is little chance most people reading these books will associate most characters as Asian looking. I for one have a HARD time imaging Shallan as even remotely Asian looking. To me, she is white. Same goes with Adolin. Other characters, I am willing to see them as such even if it is not obvious to me, despite Brandon's word.

 

In this spirit, I do not agree with an entire Asian looking cast. Honestly, a red died Asian woman with green contact lenses to play Shallan would look wrong and fake. Same goes with Adolin. There is also the fact Caucasian/Asian unions rarely leads to full Asian looking children. They sometimes do, but often they don't. There is four mix Asian couple with children in my entourage and most of those kids look white with slight Asian features... So having everyone as pure Asian would not work for me, especially for the high ranked who are very mixed in blood. Heck, my family is mix with Native blood and most of us look very white whereas some look Native: it fluctuates. My own kids certainly have retained no features from their origins.

 

As for Shallan, she is not described as Asian looking in the book. Never. Again, I am aware of Brandon's word, but if he wants us to make ourselves a clear picture of his characters, then he should include more descriptive elements. Omission means liberty of interpretation.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with not realizing what the characters actually look like, I certainly pictured everyone as white when I first read WoK.  The important As you say Western culture has issues with race and at this point it would be unlikely for a primarily non-White cast to be popular.  Recasting a significant portion to be White however is not a solution, that is just perpetuating the race issues.  I get that you are just trying to adapt to the "realities" of Western media but if we don't challenge those realities they're never going to change for the better.

 

I am Western. I will not deny this. However, I do not like comments stating we are racists. This is not true. As far as I know, there are racists all across the world. Some European countries are ten times more racists (and close on immigration) then many regions of North America.

 

Where I live, we have people from all countries bearing all kind of colored skins and practicing all kind of religions. There are many "people of color" within my acquaintances and mix unions are a common thing. Where I live, we try not to judge people based on their skin color. I am not saying we always succeed, but we sure try, as a society. Racist is not something we tolerate. Not here. Even if I will not deny it sometimes happen, it will send most people raging mad. And yes, I do live in North America and I am part of this awful despicable "Western culture" everyone likes to hate so much.

 

That being said, I do not think it is racist to use a mix cast for SA, especially providing character description in the books are not particularly clear on the matter. I know Brandon words is what matters, but most people reading these books are not reading the WoB. That and the fact some characters do not work as Asian for me, based on hair color and overall description.

 

I believe mix cast would work best and I do not believe it is racist.

[Rubix he/him]

Topic locked.

 

This discussion is going around in circles, and it's very clear that no one is willing to change their opinion. At this point, leaving this topic open will only create more bad feelings, and will not add anything more to the discussion. 

 

If you have any questions, or feel that you have something to add that will move the topic forward in a positive manner, feel free to PM me, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.