Aminar Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) We know that Mr. T made the diagram, and we know that he asked for the capacity to do so from the Nightwatcher, who is pretty heavily implied to be Cultivation, or perhaps her Spren. It is mentioned that he asks for this after the events of the prologue. Now what's interesting there is this epigraph. "AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricity TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon" It mentions a truthless. But there already was a truthless, a rare occurrence given the need for an honorblade. Even stranger, genius Taravangian didn't seem aware of this(or at least find Szeth) until the events of the Way of Kings. This suggests that somebody kept that knowledge from Taravangian in order to slow down his chaos creation, timing the events correctly. I think that Cultivation is directly behind the Diagram, behind the creation of Szeth, and the one trying to prevent the Everstorm actively by any means possible. And by directly behind I think Mr. T. is functionally a Sliver of Cultivation at this point. Edited March 12, 2014 by Aminar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gofunkiertti Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 You might want to split up that sentence or the forums might have a heart attack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricree Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 A sliver, at least by the wiki definition, has to have held a large percentage of a shade's power. Mistborn's Lord Ruler being the best example. More likely that he's something like an inquisitor, in that he's especially vulnerable to outside influence I don't think he was a splinter, but I do think that he was open to outside influence. The diagram is far too prophetic, even for his supposed level of intelligence. Even the best predictive function can only work with the inputs it is given, and I don't see the evidence of him having enough information to piece together what he did. Especially if the death rattle farming didn't start until afterwards. Given the sheer amount of death and chaos his plan has sowed, I'm currently suspecting that it's Odium rather than cultivation. But either way, I very much agree that the Diagram was created by an outsider. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) You're making the assumption that Szeth becoming a Truthless occurs before the Diagram was written... Edited March 12, 2014 by Eejit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 It mentions a truthless. But there already was a truthless, a rare occurrence given the need for an honorblade. Even stranger, genius Taravangian didn't seem aware of this(or at least find Szeth) until the events of the Way of Kings. What's your evidence for this? It seems to me that Szeth was created by Taravangian because of that epigraph. Taravangian's Diagram was created before Gavilar's assassination, so far as I know. Taravangian's knowledge of Honorblades and other things can easily be attributed to the highstorm visions that Gavilar had, as well as owning one of the biggest libraries ever. I do agree with the connection to Cultivation, however. Taravangian's activations seem Cultivationy to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darmad Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 The Taravangian section suggests his motivation for becoming king of the world was Gavilar telling him about his visions on the night he was killed by Szeth. This suggests to me that T went to the Nightwatcher after Szeth was already Truthless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is mentioned that Taravangian asked for the capacity to save the world after a conversation with Gavilar on the night of his assassination.(Or at least 6 years ago.) Szeth was made before that. Significantly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is mentioned that Taravangian asked for the capacity to save the world after a conversation with Gavilar on the night of his assassination.(Or at least 6 years ago.) Szeth was made before that. Significantly so. It's implied, but not stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is mentioned that Taravangian asked for the capacity to save the world after a conversation with Gavilar on the night of his assassination.(Or at least 6 years ago.) Szeth was made before that. Significantly so. That is not mentioned specifically. It is mentioned that Gavilar told Taravangian about his visions and the demand to unite them on the night of his death, but it is possible that Taravangian received his boon much earlier. It would certainly make the epigraph make more sense. That said, I cannot deny that you're probably right. I need a serious reread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Hm... we know that Honorblades confer Surgebinding on their holders. We can also infer that Truthwatchers have limited precog, since Renarim was all bent out of shape about it. So... is it possible that the Stone Shamans saw Mr. T's need for a Truthless and provided Szeth, the perfect weapon with Surgebinding particularly well suited to assassination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofsoup Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Shards can change people's writing. Is there any reason that Odium could not have changed the Diagram so that Mr. T is now doing his work instead? Edited March 13, 2014 by lordofsoup 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonNeturo he/him Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 If Szeth was made truthless beforehand maybe the diagram is saying for Mr T to make the truthless (szeth) his weapon. Really like the idea of Odium changing the diagram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Shard can change people's writing. Is there any reason that Odium could not have changed the Diagram so that Mr. T is now doing his work instead? Well, Odium isn't Invested on Roshar, and as such is unlikely to be omnipresent on it like Ruin, so there's that. I find it highly unlikely that Brandon would pull the same trick twice. Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize as per WoB. He has done things on Roshar to make people able to use magics he fuels, though, so perhaps he did a little Investing? Edited March 13, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos he/him Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Well, Odium isn't Invested on Roshar, and as such is unlikely to be omnipresent on it like Ruin, so there's that. I find it highly unlikely that Brandon would pull the same trick twice. Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize as per WoB. He has done things on Roshar to make people able to use magics he fuels, though, so perhaps he did a little Investing? I thought there was a quote that said Odium was indeed Invested on Roshar. But he just isn't physically present there at the moment. Do you have a quote saying Odium is *not* Invested on Roshar? I am like 95% sure he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) I thought there was a quote that said Odium was indeed Invested on Roshar. But he just isn't physically present there at the moment. Do you have a quote saying Odium is *not* Invested on Roshar? I am like 95% sure he is. The quote you're thinking of is this: Phoenix Comicon When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them? Umm... Odium never really settled on a planet. He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things. Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process. So yes it is very tough to leave. Though I was unable to find a source anywhere but the google docs page, it seems like it's slated for being put up on Theoryland and has the audio there. This quote does not say that he has Invested on Roshar. It says his magic has "permeated things" (is there a difference?). This is consistent with his Unmade (which are probably Splinters of Odium put into betrayed-feeling listeners) flinging their influence over entire countries, so I don't think it necessarily means he's Invested on Roshar. (Nergaoul apparently powers the Thrill in a radius spanning Alethkar and Jah Keved, if not bigger. The other nine Unmade could easily cover all of Roshar.) Because Odium is on Braize and has clearly left Roshar, the WoB seems to contradict other WoBs (specifically, "Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize, the 3rd planet in the system"). The way I have been interpreting it is that it would be hard for Odium to leave the Greater Roshar solar system. This is consistent with the epigraphs of WoR ("Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited."). If you have a different way of interpreting the separate WoBs (he can't leave Roshar vs he is on Braize), please let me know. I am slightly confused by this. Besides, if Odium was invested on Roshar, why on earth would he be on Braize? If he's on a different planet, he's likely Invested that too, and giving up power is not how Odium plays things. Also: if he were heavily Invested in Roshar (I think he's lightly Invested, or done something to let people use his magic), I think he'd be able to influence it and destroy it. Honor is Splintered, Odium is apathetic and so unlikely to counter him. I imagine Odium is not necessarily physically limited from leaving Greater Roshar, but he won't because he would have to leave his power behind. Or perhaps the Oathpact does force him to stay. I'm not sure. Edited March 13, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofsoup Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Well, Odium isn't Invested on Roshar, and as such is unlikely to be omnipresent on it like Ruin, so there's that. I find it highly unlikely that Brandon would pull the same trick twice. Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize as per WoB. He has done things on Roshar to make people able to use magics he fuels, though, so perhaps he did a little Investing? I get what you are saying, but it seems like there should be some things that every Shard is able to do. Clearly Brandon is not one to reuse the same idea in such a large role in multiple books, but it seems like such a potent tool that Odium would be foolish not to take advantage of it; if it were possible. The Diagram would be the perfect target. It is so large and convoluted that a few extra lines would never be noticed, especially when Mr. T writes over himself. Do you think a potential twist on this could be that parts of it were immediately changed so that they never actually got the true version instead of it being corrupted over time? It obviously could not have been on that day of pure genius or Mr. T would have noticed. However the next day before everything was recorded seems like it could work. When it is said that Odium is on Braize I take that as meaning that is the location of his body/power, and his mind is free to move small distances away from it. Also I've been thinking of the timetable. Since we do know know when the Diagram was first made, Odium could have had time to move back and forth after modifying it. Edited March 13, 2014 by lordofsoup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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