*Spoliers* Dalinar's Blade

[junior]

This saves the lighteye theory! Taln is not actually darkeyed! He can be super lighteyed like Shallash.

 

Or... not? I'm very confused. If it's not a Herald, how did the madman become a ninja and catch darts from midair?

 

The man obviously had an Honorblade. It did not disappear when he dropped it, which we now know is a trait of Honorblades. They have to be specifically willed to disappear. Ugh. Brandon is a terrible person and should release book 3 yesterday so we can get some sort of explanation.

 

Hmm...

 

There are two possibilities here that fit with "that's an Honorblade at the end of WotK, but that's not Taln in WoR"...

 

The first is that it's not Taln.  Instead, it's the herald who came back and collected his (in this theory, it's obviously "he") blade.  He's mentally cracked from his betrayal millenia ago, realizes that the Desolation is incoming, and has decided that he's Taln.  However, we still have the question regarding what happened to his Honorblade.

 

The second is that the guy who turned up at the end of WotK is indeed Taln.  But the madman in WoR isn't.  Someone swapped them for some reason.  Though that leaves even more questions.  Namely, where's Taln now, where did whomever performed the swap get the madman from, where did the Shardblade come from (it's explicitly noted that the blade is an unknown one, and shardblades are *very* carefully tracked), and most importantly, why go to all the trouble?

[RShara she/her]

I posted this in the signing thread, but maybe Hoid switched Taln and put someone else (Jezrien?) in his place.  As to motivation, I have no idea why Hoid does anything, so I got nothing on that.

[Numb]

That actually makes a lot of sense. We still don't know WHY Hoid was there when "Taln" came to the gates. Seems to be a rather irrelevant place for Hoid to be if Taln is merely the madman. Hoid must have had some purpose for being there and since we know that Hoid didn't switch the blades what exactly was his purpose?

[Pechvarry]

Look at Taln's PoV. What is it dominated by? What has obviously broken him? Torture. Unending torture. Something isn't right, but I can't see how that's not a Herald.

[Velnica]

Did Hoid muddle with Taln's mind? Maybe made him think that he was at another time? (hence the ancient Alethi accent)

 

Or otherwise someone is sedating him hardcore that he was pretty much not there. The Taln that appear in the epilogue of WoK was fairly articulate.

[poolboy]

What if Heralds are like spren and in order to regain his normal mental state fully he needs to bond with the people he will protect? Or a herald spren?

[snote]

I'm curious if maybe the weapon we see at the end of WoK isn't maybe the Honorblade and the cleaver like weapon that Dalinar bonds is Taln's Dawnshard. We don't know if the Heralds have a way of using both and are keeping the Honorblades bound to themselves in order to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. The blades left to sever the Oathpact were the Honorblades, the ones I'll assume were given at the time the Oathpact was "signed" by Honor himself. The Dawnshards are something that gives the Heralds a spren relationship like the members of the Knights Radiant. The Shard might have screamed in his mind because he wasn't the man who bonded with him. Because the spren shouldn't have screamed even if it were a true shardblade. The spren died when their oaths were broken. Taln never broke his Oath as far as we know. 

[junior]

I'm curious if maybe the weapon we see at the end of WoK isn't maybe the Honorblade and the cleaver like weapon that Dalinar bonds is Taln's Dawnshard. We don't know if the Heralds have a way of using both and are keeping the Honorblades bound to themselves in order to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. The blades left to sever the Oathpact were the Honorblades, the ones I'll assume were given at the time the Oathpact was "signed" by Honor himself. The Dawnshards are something that gives the Heralds a spren relationship like the members of the Knights Radiant. The Shard might have screamed in his mind because he wasn't the man who bonded with him. Because the spren shouldn't have screamed even if it were a true shardblade. The spren died when their oaths were broken. Taln never broke his Oath as far as we know. 

 

The Stormfather specifically calls Dalinar's shardblade an "abomination".  Given the Stormfather's obsessions, that sounds more like the name that he'd use to refer to a dead spren blade, and not a blade handed over by Honor.

[ccstat he/him]

The man obviously had an Honorblade. It did not disappear when he dropped it, which we now know is a trait of Honorblades. They have to be specifically willed to disappear. Ugh.

 

We've been concluding that "Taln" has an Honorblade at the end of WoK because it doesn't disappear like we would expect a (dead-spren) Shardblade to. Bonded shardblades disappear when dropped, but unbonded ones don't. The blade remains if the bond is broken, either by death of the bearer or by giving it up after losing a duel to Adolin. We know that Renarin, Dalinar, and Moash all had to lug their new blades around for 5 days before they could be dismissed (and before any eye-color changes set in). 

 

Regardless of whether the man who arrives at Kholinar is Taln, or whether he has an Honorblade, it is entirely possible that the blade we see has always been a plain old, mundane, dead-spren shardblade.

 

Not sure if I believe this, but it is a simple explanation that doesn't require swapping out any blades or madmen.

[trendkill he/him]

I know that when I read WoK, my first thought when the Blade stuck around was that "Taln" had died, so that kind of rings true to me. Not sure how correct any of it is now that we have WoR as well, though.

[Moogle]

Regardless of whether the man who arrives at Kholinar is Taln, or whether he has an Honorblade, it is entirely possible that the blade we see has always been a plain old, mundane, dead-spren shardblade.

 

You're right that it could be a mundane Blade, but at this point you have to explain why the Blade was swapped and looked different after it was bonded by Dalinar. The unlikelyhood of someone taking a regular Shardblade and then someone else (or the same person) putting a different Shardblade in its place... I can't fathom any reason why. There's no advantage to be gained. So yes, while you're right that it could be, I'm giving it a less than 1% chance of being true. It being an Honorblade would be a much better explanation.

[Gyth he/him]

Someone could certainly have swapped out Taln with Jezrien, who we know is missing his honorblade.

[Aleksiel]

You're right that it could be a mundane Blade, but at this point you have to explain why the Blade was swapped and looked different after it was bonded by Dalinar. 

 

There is another type of Shard on Roshar. Take a look at this from WoK:

 

 

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

 

Sounds like Dalinar going to the Stormfather to me although it's not a death rattle, but  'Poem of Ista'. So far we know nothing about the Dawnshards. They could be another type of blades that shift much like Shardplate to fit the one bonded to them. There is a possibility what Dalinar bonded was neither Honorblade, nor Shardblade.

[ccstat he/him]

you have to explain why the Blade was swapped and looked different after it was bonded by Dalinar. 

Could you post quotes of the two descriptions? It would be helpful to have those side by side and my books aren't handy.

[Moogle]

Could you post quotes of the two descriptions? It would be helpful to have those side by side and my books aren't handy.

 

Here you go:

 

To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike. “Welcome, lost one,” Wit whispered.

 

 

White mist coalesced in Dalinar’s fingers, and a Shardblade appeared, tip to Amaram’s throat. Wider than most, it was almost cleaverlike in appearance.

[snote]

Here you go:To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike. “Welcome, lost one,” Wit whispered.

 

 

White mist coalesced in Dalinar’s fingers, and a Shardblade appeared, tip to Amaram’s throat. Wider than most, it was almost cleaverlike in appearance.

 

I know somewhere that it says that the glyphs that delineate each order of the KR are based off of the swords the Herald of that order carried. Which of those two swords most resembles the one that is designed for the Stonewards?

Edited March 22, 2014 by snote

[Seloun]

Crazy theory:

 

What if it wasn't Taln that died bound to the Honorblade during the last Desolation?

 

Though...since Szeth doesn't vanish after death, just being bound to the Honorblade appears to be insufficient. Nevertheless the Heralds in the Prelude seem to indicate there's some way to 'go back' (though I suppose this might be due to suicide). What if Taln got someone else to take his place?

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Crazy theory:

 

What if it wasn't Taln that died bound to the Honorblade during the last Desolation?

 

Though...since Szeth doesn't vanish after death, just being bound to the Honorblade appears to be insufficient. Nevertheless the Heralds in the Prelude seem to indicate there's some way to 'go back' (though I suppose this might be due to suicide). What if Taln got someone else to take his place?

Wow. I really like this idea. Though I wonder who else than the Stoneward Herald could endure for 4500 years of torture that's meant to be spread between all ten.

[Seloun]

Wow. I really like this idea. Though I wonder who else than the Stoneward Herald could endure for 4500 years of torture that's meant to be spread between all ten.

 

To be frank I'm not really convinced of it myself. But it seems likely that:

 

1) WoR-'Taln' is familiar with where ever the Heralds go between Desolations

2) TWoK-'Taln' had an Honorblade

3) WoR-'Taln' is TWoK-'Taln' (they looks similar, at least, with same coloring)

 

If 'Taln' isn't really Taln (of course, WoB may be trolling...) it seems like the only place for a switch would have been at the Desolation (unless somehow someone could switch _between_ Desolations). In Taln's interlude:

 

 

The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his.

 

which I was interpreting to mean that the Shardblade wasn't his Honorblade, but could also be read as someone who took up Taln's role, including his place in the Oathpact. The thing is, I'm not sure if any of the Heralds could fit; of the male Heralds, Kalak and Jez are in the Prelude (I'm going to discount Kalak somehow lying to himself or Kalak somehow not realizing Jez has been replaced), Jez references Ishar (technically we don't see him, but seems unlikely), Nalan is highly likely to be Darkness, and...there's really no other option that I can tell, meaning if this is true it's probably not another Herald.

[name_here]

I know that when I read WoK, my first thought when the Blade stuck around was that "Taln" had died, so that kind of rings true to me. Not sure how correct any of it is now that we have WoR as well, though.

 

Honorblades vanish on death of their Herald, from the prologue.

 

We've been concluding that "Taln" has an Honorblade at the end of WoK because it doesn't disappear like we would expect a (dead-spren) Shardblade to. Bonded shardblades disappear when dropped, but unbonded ones don't. The blade remains if the bond is broken, either by death of the bearer or by giving it up after losing a duel to Adolin. We know that Renarin, Dalinar, and Moash all had to lug their new blades around for 5 days before they could be dismissed (and before any eye-color changes set in). 

 

Regardless of whether the man who arrives at Kholinar is Taln, or whether he has an Honorblade, it is entirely possible that the blade we see has always been a plain old, mundane, dead-spren shardblade.

 

Not sure if I believe this, but it is a simple explanation that doesn't require swapping out any blades or madmen.

 

The Shardblade that arrives at the Plains doesn't match the physical description of the one at the gates. The only way the shape of a dead blade could change would be getting resurrected by bonding to a Radiant, changing forms, and then dying again. It's far more likely the blade got swapped, and the only real motive for doing that would be if the original one was an Honorblade.

Edited March 24, 2014 by name_here

[Levian]

The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his.

 

which I was interpreting to mean that the Shardblade wasn't his Honorblade, but could also be read as someone who took up Taln's role, including his place in the Oathpact. The thing is, I'm not sure if any of the Heralds could fit; of the male Heralds, Kalak and Jez are in the Prelude (I'm going to discount Kalak somehow lying to himself or Kalak somehow not realizing Jez has been replaced), Jez references Ishar (technically we don't see him, but seems unlikely), Nalan is highly likely to be Darkness, and...there's really no other option that I can tell, meaning if this is true it's probably not another Herald.

 

I have a feeling that line is VERY important. It seems to imply someone essentially made him a Herald, or gave him the powers of one as well as possibly the memories. I wonder if it's possible that somehow Taln's (or some other Herald's) mind or memories was transferred to this madman claiming to be Taln, and 4500+ years of memories, memories of the torture, and possibly 4500 years of torture itself (if he was sent back to Damnation in place of Taln) broke his mind.

[fievelgoespostal]

Also one Herald went back for his blade.  So 10 - Taln - unknown Herald = 8. - Szeth = 7 in the hands of the Stone Shamans

 

 

I have heard this mentioned several times. Where do we read/find out that one Herald went back for his blade other than Taln?

[Kasimir he/him]

PorridgeBrick, on 22 Mar 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Wow. I really like this idea. Though I wonder who else than the Stoneward Herald could endure for 4500 years of torture that's meant to be spread between all ten.

Possibly, a Stoneward? They're supposed to be the ones reflecting the qualities of their Herald the most. But it is crazy--I don't see it as being that plausible even if it's cool.

[ccstat he/him]

I have heard this mentioned several times. Where do we read/find out that one Herald went back for his blade other than Taln?

This is something Brandon wrote in the front of a personalized book. It was originally posted on the forums here.

[Crazy Mraize]

I have a feeling that line is VERY important. It seems to imply someone essentially made him a Herald, or gave him the powers of one as well as possibly the memories. I wonder if it's possible that somehow Taln's (or some other Herald's) mind or memories was transferred to this madman claiming to be Taln, and 4500+ years of memories, memories of the torture, and possibly 4500 years of torture itself (if he was sent back to Damnation in place of Taln) broke his mind.

 

But at the same time how can you explain his inhuman ability to catch the darts for Amaram?  I don't think simply giving someone memory would achieve that.  He's described as a hulking muscular man.  Dark skin, with dark eyes (which I keep chuckling that Dalinar even with his visions still disregards the fact about the ancient power structures).  Speaks perfect Alethi.

 

The Gift, we aren't even sure what that could be - the Gift to keep living forever as long as you can help save mankind?  The Gift of surgebinding?  The Gift of a blade?  The Gift from the Nightwatcher? It's capitalized so it has to be something of import.  

 

I figured the reference to the words was the fact that Jezrien was the king of the heralds and he had to provide the words in the past.  Perhaps that is why Taln is so confused.