[OB] Kaladin vs Vin (2018)

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

But wait with the metal swarm idea couldn’t Kal lash anything that touched him in the opposite direction? This would put Vin in a seriously tough spot because Kal has more weight and could take advantage of her being off-balance

1: he'd have to react instantly, he'd still be hurt.

2: he'd rip through Stormlight pretty fast because he'd have to multiple lash every item so that it's weight was more than Vin could push/pull. 

[Kramerfarve]

Just now, Calderis said:

1: he'd have to react instantly, he'd still be hurt.

2: he'd rip through Stormlight pretty fast because he'd have to multiple lash every item so that it's weight was more than Vin could push/pull. 

1: He’d heal

2: He’d only need one once he figured what was happening

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

1: He’d heal

2: He’d only need one once he figured what was happening

1: consuming more Stormlight. 

2: no he wouldn't. Lashing changes the direction of gravity, which obviously isn't enough to overcome a push/pull or it wouldn't be moving in the first place. He'd need enough lashings on every item to make it weigh more than Vin do that her push/pull moved her instead of the item. In the case of a piece of metal the size of a coin, that's a ridiculous number of lashings. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Calderis

[Angsos]

I think Vin would win, maybe not easily but she would. Once Kaladin has more practice maybe but right now, Vin wins.

[vikorr]

I see several people mentioning using emotional allomancy. I'm not sure why people think Vin could use emotional allomancy on an invested person?

I see an argument over Vin's ability in the air:

- Kaladin is far superior in that regard

- Vin can push off coins/metals - that need to secured to the ground, otherwise the coins etc just fly away from her. And for her to stay in the air, the metal definitely needs purchase to the ground.... but if Kaladin lashes her in any direction other than the ground, well, coins have no purchase in the air.

Sylshield is important in this dicussion. I would have said, Kaladin lashes her to the air, approaches behind sylshield, then skewers her. I'm not sure how Vin would beat that...

...mind you, I stopped reading that series half way through the second book.

Edited July 9, 2018 by vikorr

[Housedunn]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:28 PM, vikorr said:

I see several people mentioning using emotional allomancy. I'm not sure why people think Vin could use emotional allomancy on an invested person?

I see an argument over Vin's ability in the air:

- Kaladin is far superior in that regard

- Vin can push off coins/metals - that need to secured to the ground, otherwise the coins etc just fly away from her. And for her to stay in the air, the metal definitely needs purchase to the ground.... but if Kaladin lashes her in any direction other than the ground, well, coins have no purchase in the air.

Sylshield is important in this dicussion. I would have said, Kaladin lashes her to the air, approaches behind sylshield, then skewers her. I'm not sure how Vin would beat that...

...mind you, I stopped reading that series half way through the second book.

2 questions I would have VERY late into the convo is

1) how come it is thought that you can't use emotional alomancy on an invested person? I don't remember any indication of that being impossible.

2) would it be possible for Kal to Lash a coin or Vin herself, for they would both be invested? It is impossible for one to Lash someone using Stormlight or wearing Shardplate, but also take into consideration that someone burning metal is way less Invest that someone Surgeabinding

 

Also, another thing not brought up is that the only 2 ways to kill a Surgebinder, is 1) a Shardblade or 2) (headcanon as balls) destroy his head. Vin could possibly pull it off with a duralumin pewter strike, tho if she whiffs it's a slap for Kalidin

[Housedunn]

BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH A VS BATTLE!

This time we got "end of book 3" Kalidin in a highstorm vs mist powered Vin. (who stomped the Lord Ruler and the 13 Inquisitors. NOT her taking on the mantle of Preservation)

Location in a highstorm

Round 1: Vin with first 8 metals

ROund 2: Vin with all 16 metals

(feel free to powerscale her form also. I have pretty much no idea of how strong she is, or how she would interact with a lot of the constants of Investure

[Pathfinder]

Just wanna say, while powered by the mist Vin leveled Kredick Shaw. Just to put things into perspective. And that was before becoming Preservation

[Pathfinder]

31 minutes ago, Housedunn said:

2 questions I would have VERY late into the convo is

1) how come it is thought that you can't use emotional alomancy on an invested person? I don't remember any indication of that being impossible.

2) would it be possible for Kal to Lash a coin or Vin herself, for they would both be invested? It is impossible for one to Lash someone using Stormlight or wearing Shardplate, but also take into consideration that someone burning metal is way less Invest that someone Surgeabinding

 

Also, another thing not brought up is that the only 2 ways to kill a Surgebinder, is 1) a Shardblade or 2) (headcanon as balls) destroy his head. Vin could possibly pull it off with a duralumin pewter strike, tho if she whiffs it's a slap for Kalidin

Investiture interferes with investiture. Just like you cannot directly lash someone to "unclaimed" shardplate, you cannot directly lash, or what have you to someone directly infused with investiture. Well cannot is strong. More it is very difficult depending on how invested the person or object is. A mistborn burning metals is invested enough to be up there with surgebinders as per WoB if I recall, but that i have to check. 

 

edit: WoB

Blightsong
Would it be harder for Jasnah to Soulcast a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Questioner
Would it be harder for her to Soulcast a Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, investiture resists investiture. It's harder for her to even Soulcast a person than a rock, right?

Questioner
Is a Mistborn invested?

Brandon Sanderson
The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, the yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

Blightsong
So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the potential to use investiture?

Brandon Sanderson
Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either [he cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought] so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the Mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority, bulk, of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them is harder.

Questioner
Would they be harder with more Stormlight or metals burning?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing Shardplate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, Invested is the wrong term for that, their Spiritweb is connected in different ways.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident he/him]

if Vin is powered by the Mists she has all 16 metals. I don't think Kal could even take on an Inquisitor TBH.

[Subvisual Haze]

They don't fight because they're both good people and would prefer to resolve their conflicts in a non-violent manner.

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

Um have you met Vin?

[Winds Alight she/her]

Metals/Stormlight running out aside, I'd say Kaladin could win. He has the big advantage of healing powers while he'd only have to land one good hit to incapacitate Vin.

Of course, Vin would still win because she wouldn't hesitate to hurt Kaladin while he'd have a very hard time fighting a young girl I bet. Poor fool.

[Elanmorin]

On 5/21/2018 at 4:01 PM, Housedunn said:

Round 1: Vin (starting her training with Kel) vs. soilder kaladin

Round 2: Vin (end of the final empire) vs. Kaladin (end of WoK)

Round 3: Vin (end of Book 2) vs Kaladin (before killing Syl and swearing the 3rd oath)

Round 4: Vin (end of Book 3 and before becoming Preservation) vs Kaladin (end of OB)
 

 Vin has 3 vials of the 8 basic metals plus duralumin and Kaladin has a bag of stormlight and all Sylweapons in round 4

Vin has NO access to Preservation's power (besides Allomancy) and any feats using them are null (ex. killing the Lord Ruler)

bonus round: round 4 with unlimited metal and stormlight

Rounds 1 - 3: Advantage Vin

Kaladin has no shardblade, pewter is effectively plate, and Allomancy appears to have more staying power than stormlight. Kaladin is mostly just a threat in close quarters while Vin can attempt to wear him down at range, although Kaladin's increased speed mostly counters this. Duraluminum that Vin has an easier win condition by supercharging an attack and killing Kaladin before he can heal/recover. 

Round 4: Major advantage Kaladin

Kaladin's win condition is ridiculously easier to obtain with a shardblade. A longer fight still favors Vin but unless they're in a city with metal buildings for Vin to rapidly ping-pong herself away, Kaladin will get into melee range. 

Round 5, Unlimited Metal/Stormlight: Kaladin, no contest

Unlimited healing + instant kill > Vin

 

[galendo]

Quote

Round 1: Vin (starting her training with Kel) vs. soilder kaladin

Depends a lot on where, precisely, Vin is in her training.  At the very beginning of her training, she has only Soothing and no experience with that, so major advantage to soldier Kaladin, though Vin might well be able to Soothe her way into a draw.  By the halfway point in her training, she has at least a working knowledge of all the metals and would wipe the floor with soldier Kaladin

Quote

Round 2: Vin (end of the final empire) vs. Kaladin (end of WoK)

Vin, by a long shot.  Kaladin really only has Stormlight healing going for him, and that won't last long against the pummeling he'll take from steel and iron alone.  Unless he manages to somehow get close enough to spray the ground with Stormlight and trap her with Adhesion, Kaladin doesn't have much chance at all.

Quote

Round 3: Vin (end of Book 2) vs Kaladin (before killing Syl and swearing the 3rd oath)

So now Kaladin can fly, but it still doesn't do much for him.  He still needs to get into range, and Vin can still take a pummeling.  At this point Kaladin could force a draw just by fleeing the field, but if they fight it out Vin still wins every time.

Quote

Round 4: Vin (end of Book 3 and before becoming Preservation) vs Kaladin (end of OB)

Once Kaladin has his Shardblade, things change a lot.  I maintain that he can hover out of Vin's effective attack range and keep tossing Syl at her until Vin gets tired or Kaladin gets lucky.  And even if you don't believe that, it seems unlikely that Vin can keep him from closing at speed.  Her best bet is the revolving field of metal, but even if she can keep it up indefinitely (which seems unlikely), using multiple lashings Kaladin could cross at speed, taking the odd hit or two and letting the Stormlight heal him.  And once they close to close quarters, the advantage is all Kaladin.

Quote

bonus round: round 4 with unlimited metal and stormlight

How do you even kill someone with infinite Stormlight?  Mid-WoK Kaladin would probably have a fair chance against Vin with infinite Stormlight, assuming he can do nothing more than breathe it in.  Radiant Kaladin simply crushes her.

[Jace21 he/him]

First 4, I give the edge to Vin. The Shardblade is an issue but I still maintain she can cause enough damage fast enough that he would run out of stormlight before she runs out of metal.

Bonus round is all Kaladin. Unlimited stormlight makes it unkillable with just the basic 8 metals, no matter the quantities.

[NoiseSpren he/him]

Vin doesn't use Kelsiers metal storm in 1v1 combat. She kills with daggers. Not much effective. She could hit him with pewter... That is like shardplate. Ok, but Szeth was hit in his storming face with shardplate... He healed rather quickly. Kal is better than Szeth then. She could coinshot him. He can lash himself multiple times = he would be so "heavy" she woul fly away. Very far away. She could KO him with duralium. Ok, but she is without metals short period of time after that. Kal could KO her with shardblade - there are no weaknesses using it. So advantages duralium = shardblade. Or not. Shardblade is better.

 

I am saying this because many people made good points why Vin would win. But KAL IS PRETTY damnation OP TOO.

 

Vin without mist-boosting: no Lord Ruler kill, no 13 steels kill, no L. R.'s palace destroyed...

Kal in OB would mop sky with her. Rest of fights? Vin, but only because Vin's progress is in three books. Kal is only on beginning of his arc. Fair would be: Vin end of book one vs Kal end of book two. Vin book three vs Kal OB.

 

THE QUESTION IS: WHY DO THEY FIGHT??? AND WHERE???

That decides everithing.

 

 

 

 

And Vin is hardly cosmere Jesus. Scandrial maybe... But cosmere? Don't make me laugh...

 

Not going to continue this thread. Probably

[Thanatos]

Vin wins every time with duralumin emotional allomancy.

The second Kal gets plate, he wins every time. 

[asterion137 he/him]

Vin all rounds. She has range, and steel lasts longer than stormlight. If Bonus round is Vin with the mists, she stomps that, too. 

[Elanmorin]

17 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Vin wins every time with duralumin emotional allomancy.

The second Kal gets plate, he wins every time. 

Why, specifically? Is there a duraluminum fueled sooth/riot on a human shown in the books? 

It's obviously an advantage, particularly if Kal is on one of his despondent streaks, but why would that amount to her "win condition"? 

The effect isn't permanent and Vin still has to do more damage than Kaladin can heal with stormlight before the effect wears off.

[Jace21 he/him]

15 hours ago, Elanmorin said:

Why, specifically? Is there a duraluminum fueled sooth/riot on a human shown in the books? 

I believe there is, when Vin and Elend meet with Straff and she wipes his emotions completely.

The main effect would be that Kal would almost certainly stop moving and at that point Vin could probably hit him fast enough to keep him pinned until his Stornlight ran out, even once the emotional allomancy wore off.

May not work, but even if it didn't kill him and just forced heavy stormlight use it could be a factor.

[Timothy]

I wonder who'd win in a fully powered fight between them. We still don't know what Kaladin is able to do with his pressure powers and the applications of some of the metals haven't been explored yet. 

I'm of the opinion that Vin and mistborn in general are sort of more invested by their shard, since they have the full power set and I think it's implied somewhere that the "natural" expression of the powers are mistings. Then again the radiant orders are, in general, more suited to fighting and Brandon said/implied that Kaladin would beat Kelsier in a fair fight. I guess that having a small shard bond with them makes a surgebinder stronger?

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

I think you all are forgetting that Kaladin can heal almost any wound and has a Shardblade. This fight could really go either way. If Vin can deal a critical injury, then she’ll probably win; same with Kal, except that it’s much easier to ruin a vial of metals than a “bag” of Stormlight. Kaladin also has much more mobility in the sky than Vin, as well as a wider range of projectiles and more control over the speed/force of those projectiles, and Kaladin’s reverse Lashing gives him a serious edge when it comes to dodging/diverting said projectiles. While pewter grants Bin superior strength, Kaladin has superior combat skill. I might be putting my money on Kaladin on this one. I also haven’t read Mistborn in a while so Vin’s awesomeness isn’t fresh in my mind, and I wasn’t accounting for atium. For the bonus round, I definitely say Kaladin. Stormlight heals, whereas pewter only lets Vin power through injuries.Kaladin could always go where Vin can’t reach, as his Lashings are less limited than Steelpushes/Ironpulls. Again, however, atium is dangerous and a different story, though I guess it doesn’t matter what you can see in the future if you can’t stop it.

Edited January 30, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

On 1/27/2019 at 8:59 PM, asterion137 said:

Vin all rounds. She has range, and steel lasts longer than stormlight. If Bonus round is Vin with the mists, she stomps that, too. 

No. In a ranged fight, Kaladin has every advantage. Vin can shoot metal. Kaladin can shoot... pretty much anything. Kaladin can deflect shots with reverse Lashings. Vin cannot. Kaladin can also fly away to give himself time to heal. In a close fight, he might have advantage as well. He is a highly skilled soldier, and could heal injuries. He also can summon a versatile weapon/shield. Vin’s only advantage is strength and the fact that she doesn’t need to touch something to make it move. Oh, and tin, but that isn’t really useful at a distance.

Edited January 30, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:59 PM, galendo said:

So now Kaladin can fly, but it still doesn't do much for him.  He still needs to get into range, and Vin can still take a pummeling.  At this point Kaladin could force a draw just by fleeing the field, but if they fight it out Vin still wins every time.

I disagree. Again, Kaladin definitely has the advantage with a ranged fight, as Kaladin can use his Lashings to fire more than metal. Also, Basic Lashings work by changing gravity and affixing it to a certain direction or point, but Steelpushes just push the metal away from you. Kaladin could just aim stuff at Vin with increased accuracy, as the projectiles are essentially falling in her direction. Kaladin could use Reverse Lashings to avoid her metal. Kaladin could win this one.

Edited January 30, 2019 by IGetLIFTed