[OB] The Weirdness of Oathbringer

[Diomedes]

There have been a couple of threads of readers being disappointed by OB.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/68936-ob-whats-up-with-oathbringer/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/66361-ob-underwhelming/

Or a review on goodreads

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/891581512

 

These reviews hit on a point: Oathbringer is a really weird book. It ignores basic advice Brandon himself gives to young readers in his lectures on YouTube.

 

1. Lack of Expectations/ Promises (I wrote a different version of this somewhere else)

In OB no grand expectation is set or promise made for the last few hundred pages or so.

In WoK we had Dalinar vs Sadeas and the situation of Bridge Four and indeed these issues were met by the end of WoK. In WoR an even greater expectation was resolved that the war against the Parshendi would end which we had expected since the beginning of WoK. 

OB is different. The big villain is Odium but we also know that he is not going to be defeated in this book. There is no plan how to challange him, no ring to throw into Mt. Doom, no Death Star to destroy, no Horcruxes to kill, you get the point. All plotlines hang in a void without some big expectation to tie them all together. Instead the characters stumble along for the last act to arrive. I mean they literally stumble through the Perpendicularity into Thaylen! We could not have expected the books resolution there.  

 Expectations we could reasonable have after WoR, were not met. Sadeas death had only minor consequences. His death is kind of swept under the rug for the entire book; The Ghostblood/Shallan/Jasnah issue, again not really addressed. And then there is the triangle of doom…I know this is controversial, but I expected clarity by the end of this book. We did not get a scene of Shallan having a conversation with Kaladin laying out why and that she really is not into him. Instead there was hardly any dialogue between Kaladin and Shallan and, well, an endless teasing game. Anyways, let`s not delve into that too much. Things turn toxic very fast.        

 

2. Lack of agency

Sah the freed Singer tells Kaladin:

Quote

My freedom is that of a leaf. Dropped from the tree, I just blow on the wind and pretend I am in charge of destiny. OB, p. 217.

This line applies to most characters in OB. Elokhar does, what he thinks society demands of a “good” king. Kaladin cannot save him, because he is frozen on the spot. He only gets more frustrated by the question of whom he should protect. Shallan plunges deeper and deeper into her madness. Moash`s destiny is determined by his past choices. Dalinar is unable to face his former self. Adolin cannot tell anybody he killed Sadeas.

Szeth is the exception here. He used to be swept away by circumstances, but he is making his own choices in this book.

Only by the end of OB do some (mostly Dalinar) regain a little bit of agency. For the most part, however, they are just leafs in the wind being blown by the plot hither and tither. This is not good storytelling.

 

I have too much confidence in Brandon as a writer to think this is merely a coincidence. Especially since he advises young writers in his lectures to set promises and to construct a plot with characters having agency.

Instead I believe he tried to square the circle by writing Oathbringer: Laying down a compelling narrative without having promises or letting the characters make meaningful choices. And he kind of succeeded, didn`t he? Oathbringer is a good book, despite having these massive structural faults.

Why did he do it?

1. Brandon cannot escalate every book by having bigger and bigger promises: (sequels always have to be bigger, as the Ardent jokingly said). OB is a purposeful step down to enable future plots to feel genuine and not like the next inevitable step on the ladder towards our final villain Odium.

2. It shows Odium`s almost absolute control of everyone. Odium`s influence is often described as letting go of any responsibility, to just go where momentum and your passions carry you. Odium has good reasons to believe there is no possible way for him to lose. This should be reflected in the narrative.

 

Odium reigns.          

(Especially in Oathbringer)             

 

[Kaladin Zahel]

All good points. Perhaps this book was really SA book 3 part 1 and the next one will be spectacular. Then the 5th being the finale leading into an intermission will be more like Brandon's typical books again.

I too have faith in Brandon even though I was one of the disappointed readers. He will certainly make a great series when it's all finished.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

46 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

3 hours ago, Diomedes said:

All plotlines hang in a void without some big expectation to tie them all together.

Perhaps this book was really SA book 3 part 1 and the next one will be spectacular.

Isn't this basically The Well of Ascension all over again? Sazed and the Prophecy, Vin and Preservation/Ruin, Elend and Leadership. Sure, those plotlines hit a minor resolution at the end of WoA, but they all continued into The Hero of Ages, where they were not only resolved, but tied together quite well.

In Oathbringer, we have Dalinar and Odium, Kaladin and Amaram/Moash, Shallan and Shallan, Taravangian and the Diagram, Venli and Timbre/Fused, etc... They've all hit some form of milestone, but are nowhere near completion, and they certainly aren't well tied together at the moment. But by the end of Song of Secrets(another ~1,200 pages of storytelling), I imagine that we'll see much more progress(and actually have an idea of where the front five story is heading)

Edited May 28, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Llarimar he/him]

5 hours ago, Diomedes said:

I have too much confidence in Brandon as a writer to think this is merely a coincidence. Especially since he advises young writers in his lectures to set promises and to construct a plot with characters having agency.

Instead I believe he tried to square the circle by writing Oathbringer: Laying down a compelling narrative without having promises or letting the characters make meaningful choices. And he kind of succeeded, didn`t he? Oathbringer is a good book, despite having these massive structural faults.

Why did he do it?

1. Brandon cannot escalate every book by having bigger and bigger promises: (sequels always have to be bigger, as the Ardent jokingly said). OB is a purposeful step down to enable future plots to feel genuine and not like the next inevitable step on the ladder towards our final villain Odium.

2. It shows Odium`s almost absolute control of everyone. Odium`s influence is often described as letting go of any responsibility, to just go where momentum and your passions carry you. Odium has good reasons to believe there is no possible way for him to lose. This should be reflected in the narrative.

 

Odium reigns.          

(Especially in Oathbringer)             

I actually really needed to hear this, I think it gives some very good perspective.  I have never considered that the structural faults in Oathbringer were intentional, that Brandon purposefully included them for necessary reasons, and that despite them, he was still able to make the book excellent enough to stand alongside his other novels.  I especially like the idea that the scattered plot and the powerlessness of the characters in Oathbringer is intentionally reflective of Odium's influence in the book, which can be felt both in the narrative and in the actions the characters are forced to take, even if the reader doesn't consciously realize this.  We are being affected by the oppressive power of Odium as we read Oathbringer, just like all of the in-world people.  

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Isn't this basically The Well of Ascension all over again? Sazed and the Prophecy, Vin and Preservation/Ruin, Elend and Leadership. Sure, those plotlines hit a minor resolution at the end of WoA, but they all continued into The Hero of Ages, where they were not only resolved, but tied together quite well.

Again, a very good point.  The Well of Ascension was my least favorite book of Mistborn Era 1, and I remember feeling very doubtful at the time of reading it that the series would satisfactorily wrap up by Book 3.  Keep in mind though, I had The Hero of Ages sitting on my shelf waiting for me to read when I finished The Well of Ascension, so I discovered quite quickly that Brandon had a larger plan in mind, but I can imagine that at the time of The Well of Ascension being released, some people were probably annoyed with it, and were concerned while waiting for Book 3 that the series was going downhill.  I think that once we have books 4 and 5 of the Stormlight Archive, Oathbringer will appear as a seamless part of the tapestry, and everything will make sense by the end.  It'll just take a long time getting there.  

Also, @Diomedes, you should add [OB] to the beginning of the thread title.  

Edited May 28, 2018 by Llarimar

[Vissy]

I suppose we'll see, won't we? Personally I just think that "I purposefully wrote a worse book because I wanted to make the following ones feel better in comparison" is a weak post-hoc rationalization that, ultimately, just boils down to the author writing a worse book than they tend to write and people not wanting to think that he's lost his edge or something. Realistically, Book 3 was always going to be a hard one to write and it also came at a time when Sanderson has been, by his own admission, struggling with somewhat of an unprecedented writers' block. I have no doubt that he'll be back on form in Book 4, especially given that now he's got much more room to take the plot threads from WoR and straighten them out to their rightful conclusions.

I do agree about the ending of OB, though. No excuses for that - it was one of the worst sections of the book, especially the Shadesmar meandering. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Vissy

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Ome of the problems with Oathbringer is how it manages to stay relatively small-scale despite being big-scale. There are so much we should have gotten more of: Amarams conversion to Odium, Sadeas murder, Nale deciding to help the Voidbringers, the Irali-Voidbringer alliance, the Ghostbloods, and so on. Instead we basically only got the Urithiru team, Moash, Bridge 4, Szeth, Lift, Mr T and Venli.

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I suppose we'll see, won't we? Personally I just think that "I purposefully wrote a worse book because I wanted to make the following ones feel better in comparison" is a weak post-hoc rationalization that, ultimately, just boils down to the author writing a worse book than they tend to write and people not wanting to think that he's lost his edge or something. Realistically, Book 3 was always going to be a hard one to write and it also came at a time when Sanderson has been, by his own admission, struggling with somewhat of an unprecedented writers' block. I have no doubt that he'll be back on form in Book 4, especially given that now he's got much more room to take the plot threads from WoR and straighten them out to their rightful conclusions.

Brandon regards OB as one of his best books. OB´s "weaknesses" are structural ones. Brandon is a bit famous for meticilously laying down the framework in his books. Planing everything ahead, so much so that, sometimes, his books seem to hurry along to fit into his scheme. It would be reaally weird, if one of his big, big strenghts turned over night into his biggest weaknes as a writer. No, these "faults" are intentional. I am not saying btw. that the ending (and the book) was bad, it was merely .... weird and unusual. 

 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Ome of the problems with Oathbringer is how it manages to stay relatively small-scale despite being big-scale. There are so much we should have gotten more of: Amarams conversion to Odium, Sadeas murder, Nale deciding to help the Voidbringers, the Irali-Voidbringer alliance, the Ghostbloods, and so on. Instead we basically only got the Urithiru team, Moash, Bridge 4, Szeth, Lift, Mr T and Venli.

 Good points! Again these are structural weaknesses, not one of his writing style. The feeling of getting swept away by the plot, of confusion and helplessness are purpousfully created by Brandon. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Diomedes

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

43 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

 

 Good points! Again these are structural weaknesses, not one of his writing style. The feeling of getting swept away by the plot, of confusion and helplessness are purpousfully created by Brandon. 

I think it might have to do with his wish to avoid broadening the story as much as Jordan and GRRM has done woth their story. He has always tried to keep his characters in the same geographical zones, and avoids spreading them out. The story becomes more focused as a result of this, but also a bit more frustrating for some, since a lot of characters or places gets less space. For this book, Brandon clearly wished to focus on the characters of Dalinar and Shallan, as well as the Kholinar, Shadesmar and Rosharan Alliance story arcs. This meant that some things, such as the internal Alethis politics, and a bunch of Secret Societies didn’t get a lot of time to appear. 

Personally, I think balance is a problem with Oathbringer. Would I have chopped away a little of the time in Shadesmar to give more meat to the Sadeas murder story? Yes. Would I have sacrificed one or two Bridge 4 POVs for an Amaram POV? Yup. 

I do like Oathbringer, and a lot of the arcs and things we got were great (Dalinars story is and will forever be fantastic), but a few mistakes, like the Sadeas murder or Amarams development, are weaknesses, that could have been fixed. If they were, I feel like the book would come off a lot stronger. 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Ome of the problems with Oathbringer is how it manages to stay relatively small-scale despite being big-scale. There are so much we should have gotten more of: Amarams conversion to Odium, Sadeas murder, Nale deciding to help the Voidbringers, the Irali-Voidbringer alliance, the Ghostbloods, and so on. Instead we basically only got the Urithiru team, Moash, Bridge 4, Szeth, Lift, Mr T and Venli.

That could have been on purpose. 

As interesting and important as those things are; most of the characters we followed knew little about it.  They had their own problems they focused on.  It makes some sense that the story highly avoided focus on them.

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

Brandon regards OB as one of his best books. OB´s "weaknesses" are structural ones. Brandon is a bit famous for meticilously laying down the framework in his books. Planing everything ahead, so much so that, sometimes, his books seem to hurry along to fit into his scheme. It would be reaally weird, if one of his big, big strenghts turned over night into his biggest weaknes as a writer. No, these "faults" are intentional. I am not saying btw. that the ending (and the book) was bad, it was merely .... weird and unusual. 

 

 Good points! Again these are structural weaknesses, not one of his writing style. The feeling of getting swept away by the plot, of confusion and helplessness are purpousfully created by Brandon. 

I think attributing every problem in a book to literary genius is laying it on too thickly. The weakness of OB isn't his meticulous planning - it's how despite all that planning, it doesn't work as a standalone novel. It feels like part one and a half of a two-part series. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

26 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

That could have been on purpose. 

As interesting and important as those things are; most of the characters we followed knew little about it.  They had their own problems they focused on.  It makes some sense that the story highly avoided focus on them.

It does, and that is a good explanation for the absence (pretty sure I spelled that word wrong) of people like Mraize or Nale. But the Sadeas plot doesn´t fall in that cathegory. And if we had some Amaram POVs that explained his reasoning and maybe made him a bit more symphatetic, the ending would have worked better, and would have felt a lot stronger. 

[Angsos]

The love triangle wasn't resolved because 1/3 of Shallan(Veil) still likes Kaladin, meaning Shallan herself isn't completely sold on Adolin even though she chooses at the end. Also, in real life, would that be neatly wrapped, I doubt it.

The book seemed fine to me, maybe I'll spot stuff you're talking about when I listen to it again.

[Ammanas]

I think the biggest problem is not a lot really happened. Although one can say the same of the two previous stormlight books it seems more pronounced in Oathbringer. I have said it before that if a author wants to write about "not much happening" they need to employ magnificent prose (which is not one of Brandon's strengths, although he does have occasional moments). The best fantasy author, in my opinion, that can get away with this sort of approach is Tad Williams or possibly Clark Ashton Smith (the latter's plot becoming almost inconsequential compared to the imagery that he conjures).

All good points however in the original post. It is frustrating when people dont explain their objections and thought you did a good job of it.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Ammanas

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I think attributing every problem in a book to literary genius is laying it on too thickly. The weakness of OB isn't his meticulous planning - it's how despite all that planning, it doesn't work as a standalone novel. It feels like part one and a half of a two-part series

I think we disagree on what constitutes a good novel. For you it is that it`s entertaining and could stand on its own. For me it´s that it`s interesting and explores themes we have not seen before. 

 

44 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

I think the biggest problem is not a lot really happened. Although one can say the same of the two previous stormlight books it seems more pronounced in Oathbringer. I have said it before that if a author wants to write about "not much happening" they need to employ magnificent prose (which is not one of Brandon's strengths, although he does have occasional moments). The best fantasy author, in my opinion, that can get away with this sort of approach is Tad Williams or possibly Clark Ashton Smith (the latter's plot becoming almost inconsequential compared to the imagery that he conjures)

Yeah, that`s the reason people seem to like it not as much: Brandon`s prose is not as good as to make it work really well. 

  

44 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

All good points however in the original post. It is frustrating when people dont explain their objections and thought you did a good job of it.

I did like Oathbringer, not as much as I did WoR, but still... I am going to reread OB having in mind what Brandon wants to get at. I think it is going to be way more enjoyable. My points were not really objections, but rather explanations why people were "underwhelmed" and of the weirdness of OB; which is not a inherently a bad thing! 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Diomedes

[Llarimar he/him]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I think attributing every problem in a book to literary genius is laying it on too thickly. The weakness of OB isn't his meticulous planning - it's how despite all that planning, it doesn't work as a standalone novel. It feels like part one and a half of a two-part series. 

I feel like this could be said of most of Sanderson's novels which are part of a series.  They are all meant to be read together, instead of as stand-alone novels.  The only one I can think of that can really stand strongly on its own without depending on other books is Mistborn: The Final Empire, because even thought not all plot threads are wrapped up by the end of that book, quite a lot of them are, and you don't have to read the rest of the Mistborn books to feel satisfied by the ending.  The Stormlight books, on the other hand, all exist as one giant volume in my mind - it's hard to separate them into stand-alone novels.  I agree that that feeling is especially pronounced in OB, because the book offers very little by its own merits and relies heavily on the previous installments, but it still is very much in line with the way that Brandon writes series.  

16 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

I think we disagree on what constitutes a good novel. For you it is that it`s entertaining and could stand on its own. For me it´s that it`s interesting and explores themes we have not seen before. 

I can't speak for Vissy but I agree that a good novel for me is constituted much more by how interesting I find the novel and the types of themes that the book explores than by how entertaining it is.  Something else that is important to me in a novel is that the conclusion is emotionally satisfying - not that it necessarily has a good ending, but that the ending is emotionally appropriate for the type of novel it was.  OB for me was not a very satisfying novel, which is one of the reasons why I was disappointed by it.  The extremely long final battle at Thaylen City, for example, despite being the climax of the book, was very exhausting and emotionally hollow to me, because it all just felt like random action scenes with no feeling, and there was no real peril because Odium had already left.  That's just one example, but the point is that at numerous points through the book I was unsatisfied and my expectations weren't met.  I should speak too soon though, because how much I like OB in the long run will very much depend on how much I like Stormlight 4 and 5. 

[Calderis he/him]

I still think that this is all about expectations. 

Reading OB the first time, I liked it but it was just... Odd, because I had things that I thought were going to happen that didn't. 

Reading OB a second time, as I did just a few weeks ago, it was phenomenal. With my expectations set aside and reading this book for what it is and not anticipating things that weren't coming, this flows together much better than it first seems.

It does still have its issues, but the only one I can really say still bothers me is Amaram turn being off screen. 

Sadeas murder had massive implications, they just weren't the ones that people wanted/expected. All things considered though, with Kholinar out of touch and Urithiru the base of operations of the Alethi, and the way politics have shifted there... I don't see how it could have gone much differently. Sadeas' political allies remained back in the war camps. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Calderis

[Llarimar he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Reading OB a second time, as I did just a few weeks ago, it was phenomenal. With my expectations set aside and reading this book for what it is and not anticipating things that weren't coming, this flows together much better than it first seems. 

The book was phenomenal, but not by Sanderson standards, at least in my opinion.  I feel like I've been spoiled by his writing - I expect so much of his novels because all the previous ones were excellent, and if any of them fall short of excellent they disappoint.  However, you're right - if you strip away the expectations and just look at OB for its value as a novel, it's much better than it appears after reading it the first time (although I haven't actually read it through a second time...).  It kind of reminds me of when people watch an animated movie, and say something like, "By normal standards for animated movies, this is an excellent film, although if it had been made by Pixar it would be just mediocre" (because Pixar is so much better than normal animation), or on the flip side, "This Pixar film would be excellent if any other studio made it, but the fact that it was made by Pixar makes it just barely mediocre."  

[Jehoiada he/him]

For me I hyped it up to much, I was expecting something that was going to surpassed tWoK and WoR, but thats not what it is, it is its own book with alot of information and new things we learned, (it was better the second time reading it although), I think we had higher expectations and its kinda twisting our view of the overall book, but we have to look at the big picture. That's my $0.02 for you take it for what it is.

[Andy92]

Not every single plotline is going to get a lot of screen time in a 10 book series. I’ve been reading though WoT for the first time and there are literally 700 page gaps between certain arcs/character point of views. Stuff gets introduced in book 2 and isn’t even revisited until halfway through book 4. Tis the nature of a long series. 

[Diomedes]

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It does still have its issues, but the only one I can really say still bothers me is Amaram turn being off screen.

This was kind of explained in the dialogue between Kaladin and Amaram in Thaylen. The only thing I accuse the book of, is it`s cheezy writing sometimes. That dialogue was certainly cheezy. I mean who talks whilst fighting? You don`t have time, things happen to fast.

 

22 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Not every single plotline is going to get a lot of screen time in a 10 book series. I’ve been reading though WoT for the first time and there are literally 700 page gaps between certain arcs/character point of views. Stuff gets introduced in book 2 and isn’t even revisited until halfway through book 4. Tis the nature of a long series.

A little Amaram scene could have been introduced nonetheless. He is so instrumental to the developement of Kaladin. I am of the opinion we will see him again as some kind of human Fused.   

[Steeldancer he/him]

I... still don’t get the complaints. I just don’t. Nothing happens? What are you even talking about?! 

No, what drove the story for me was Dalinar. I deeply connected to Dalinars story, to the point where certain phrases were things I remember thinking at times in my life. And he captured that beautifully. 

Why do people complain about shadesmar?! I never thought we would get shadesmar in this book, and getting that piece of world building is HUGE. 

I agree with Calderis, amaram is the thing that bothers me most. He explains himself in his battle... but it just feels a little out of left field. But the themes are those that are carried throughout the entire book. The theme of responsibility is what makes this book for me. In every single character, responsibility played a role. And, I just don’t get the complaints. I find it to be deeply insightful and powerful, while also being awesome where we actually get to see awesome radiance in action. I loved seeing Bridge 4, and even Moash- as much as I hate him- provides an important contrast to Dalinars story, and sets up what is likely to be Kaladins future story. I just don’t mind the character building and world building. It never feels like it drags too much (which totally happened for me in WoT), and even if some of the romance isn’t the most well written, that’s not what I was hoping to get out of this book. Dalinars story IS what I wanted to get out, and each time I read it, it is so intensely emotionally satisfying. People can become better. Kaladin doesn’t always succeed. I think as heroic as kaladin is, Dalinars story just is the one that speaks the most to me. And I love Taln. So, I loved OB. I just don’t feel that writing is mediocre when it speaks to your soul. 

[Vissy]

@SteeldancerTo be fair, I think you'd have been satisfied with the book if all it consisted of were the passages with Taln in them. 

[Odin1981]

I feel this book was a lead in to books 4 and 5. Obviously Odium to some degree has to be introduced, however he is probably a long term character so he was just lightly gone into. I actually liked Shallan's development arc it actually made me appreciate her character. To me Oathbringer was simply put a set up book. Brandon had to delve into arc's that will play more into the future. 

The only thing I wish there was more of would be Szeth pov's because I find him very interesting and I also find the dual back and forth between him and the sword to be hilarious and also a interesting pairing as well as Jasnah pov's because she is the least explored and there is a lot that intrigues me about her. Also if there was one person who I would like to see less of it would be Lift because until she ages however long the time gap is between book 5 and book 6 I find her just annoying as a child. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

14 minutes ago, Vissy said:

@SteeldancerTo be fair, I think you'd have been satisfied with the book if all it consisted of were the passages with Taln in them. 

oh absolutely. But without Dalinars story, Taln would never be able to reveal his wonderful perfect nature. 

I can get how some plot lines feel loose, but other than the romance I just can’t think of a single character arc that doesn’t tie into Dalinars grand theme of responsibility. So I guess, if that didn’t click for some people, that didn’t work for them. But it worked for me, and as Rock says, people not liking it neither means it is broken or that the people are broken. 

[Diomedes]

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I... still don’t get the complaints. I just don’t. Nothing happens? What are you even talking about?! 

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

I can get how some plot lines feel loose, but other than the romance I just can’t think of a single character arc that doesn’t tie into Dalinars grand theme of responsibility.

It`s not like there was not a thematic overlap between the arcs, there certainly was. However, there were no big expectations/ promises for the last few hundred pages and the characters lacked agency for the first 90% of the book. I strongly suggested this is not by accident, Brandon purposefully set it up this way to show Odium`s influence. But it also makes for a less compelling story for readers, who are used to big promises and an empowering message of characters making choices, not just drifting around.   

Edited May 28, 2018 by Diomedes