Popular Post RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) There's a common theory that Kaladin or some of our current Radiants will take the place of some of the Heralds, and I wanted to share my thoughts on why I am very much against this idea, and I really hope that Brandon goes a different path. 1. The Oathpact simply bound the Fused to Braize, and didn't have any real affect on Odium, except maybe tangentially (his army and some of his investiture being imprisoned on a different world). Odium is bound by Honor and Cultivation. So at the most, reforming the Oathpact would imprison the Fused on Braize again. Additionally, Brandon says that what binds Odium is greater than the Oathpact in the first one. In the second, he says that only the Heralds and Honor were part of the Oathpact, not Odium. In the third, the Oathpact is not a direct result of Odium not being able to leave the system. But it's a little part of it. Because the Fused Do take some of his investiture, and he wouldn't want to leave that behind. And as long as they are bound to Braize, the Fused can't fulfill the purpose that he made them for. So he's hindered in his goals. Quote AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. Quote Questioner So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is-- Brandon Sanderson Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact. source Quote luke.spence (paraphrased) How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). source Quote Eric For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else? Brandon Sanderson Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it. source 2. Even if this were a solution, it's not an effective one. The Oathpact is a failure. The Heralds can break. Relying on a broken system to work, or rather, attempting the same thing over again with the expectation of a different result is the definition of insanity. Renewing the Oathpact would only restart the cycle of Desolations, which, at their peak, caused the deaths of 90% of the population or more. Quote THE CYCLE REPEATED. AT FIRST THE RESPITE BETWEEN DESOLATIONS WAS LONG. HUNDREDS OF YEARS. NEAR THE END, DESOLATIONS CAME SEPARATED BY FEWER THAN TEN YEARS. THERE WAS LESS THAN ONE YEAR BETWEEN THE LAST TWO. THE SOULS OF THE HERALDS HAD WORN THIN. THEY BROKE ALMOST AS SOON AS THEY WERE CAUGHT AND TORTURED IN DAMNATION. 3. Per the Stormfather, the Fused no longer return to Braize, but float around in the Everstorm waiting to be reborn. A new Oathpact wouldn't bind them to Braize if they never return there in the first place. Quote THE FUSED DO NOT RETURN TO DAMNATION WHEN KILLED. THEY ARE REBORN IN THE NEXT EVERSTORM. 4. Renewing the Oathpact would not only merely restart the cycle of Desolations, but (assuming the current crop of Radiants start out fresh and strong), the people of Roshar would simply forget about Odium and the Heralds again. So when someone does break, they'll be back in the same situation. And the Radiants' sacrifice would be for nothing. Quote “Men must face them together,” the figure said, stepping up to Dalinar, placing a hand on his shoulder. “You cannot squabble as in times past. He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing.” 5. With Honor dead, and Jezrien dead, we don't know if the Oathpact even could be renewed, even if it were a good idea. Quote THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG. 6. I really don't like the idea of the first uber-arc ending in failure. It's a bad way to end the series, a very big cliffhanger. I don't think Brandon would do that, since it's going to be extra-long between books 5 and 6. Brandon has said that the two series will have their own distinct arcs, that will tie in to the bigger story, and has called Arc 2 a sequel to Arc 1. Ending an arc on a cliffhanger is just a bad idea to me. Having to renew the Oathpact (somehow) means that the humans are desperate and losing, and need some way of recovering. In my opinion, the first arc is the battle for Roshar the planet. The fight against the Fused and Odium's "earthly" forces. Then the second arc is going to be the battle against Odium directly, to bind him in a way where he's harmless, or eliminate him as a threat, or something (I don't know lol, sorry) and will involve more of the greater Roshar system, the Heralds, the Shards, and who knows what else. Quote Brandon Sanderson The back five will have different characters, though some of the characters from the first five will still show up. And I'm seeding characters who will be important in the back five, in the front five. And Lift is important. Lift is... In my outline, she's one of those things, I had her in my wiki. (I have an internal wiki. You can't find it. It's on my computers only.) There's entries for characters that my assistants get to, and they're like "Who is this? You have this character being a main character, and they haven't even shown up yet." And I'm like, "Oh, let me tell you about them!" https://wob.coppermind.net/events/201-words-of-radiance-los-angeles-signing/#e9743 Quote Questioner How many books are there going to be and how long is it going to take? I only have so long to wait. Brandon Sanderson It's two five book series: a five book arc which will come to an end, and then there will be a break, and then another five book arc. Questioner In what time span? Brandon Sanderson I'm going to try to do them fast. It won't be as long between the first and second. Probably every eighteen months. source Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] How many books are going to be in The Stormlight Archive? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Two five book arcs. Five will be an ending, and then six through ten will kind of be another story. source Quote Questioner Do you have any idea when you’ll finish this series? Brandon Sanderson So there’ll be two five-book groups, first five should finish fairly soon. But then there’ll be a break while I write something else and then I’ll come back to the back five, so i’m not sure, but the first five will have their own arc. source Quote Yserbius What made you decide on a 10 book length for The Stormlight Archive? Do you have the entire thing planned out, including how it will be paced and plotted? Brandon Sanderson I had eight characters I wanted to tell a story about, and wanted to give each one a book to include flashbacks and specific character development. Once I got to outlining, I realized that I had material for about ten books, and ten was a very special number in the world. So I settled on that. It will be paced and plotted much as the first, though I plan the future books to be a little shorter than the first establishing one. There will be two primary five-book arcs, so you could consider it two series of five, if you'd prefer. source Space for more thoughts as needed Edited July 18, 2018 by RShara Forgot spoiler tag 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 I have wondered if Book 5 would end with Dalinar or Kaladin asking the Heralds for 15 years, enough time to prepare, but not forget. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 I've never been really happy with that theory either, and this post sums up part of why. I expect Odium to be dealt with in a more permanent way at least by the end of book 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I have wondered if Book 5 would end with Dalinar or Kaladin asking the Heralds for 15 years, enough time to prepare, but not forget. That still leaves problems 1, 3 and 5 And 6, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 I'm not sure most of the Heralds are in a fit state to make that decision even if it can be done without Jezrien. Also, Taln deserves better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overlord Jebus Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, RShara said: 3. Per the Stormfather, the Fused no longer return to Braize, but float around in the Everstorm waiting to be reborn. A new Oathpact wouldn't bind them to Braize if they never return there in the first place. This to me is the biggest reason that I think any talk of the Heralds or the Oathpact doing something about the current situation are just pointless. Kill all the Heralds you want, make new Heralds, make every man, woman and child on Roshar a Herald. It won't do anything because the entire point of the Oathpact has been bypassed. You can't trap the Fused on Braize anymore because they don't go to Braize anymore. They go to the Everstorm (Which is also where I believe Odium "is" too) and the Everstorm renews them. Right now, the Heralds are just a bunch of very expensive relics. They are not the solution to the current problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 For some weird reason the "radiants turning into herald" does while sounds poetic in a tragic sense of heroism. It also seems predictable in a story pov(which is saying something about how Sanderson writes his plot) Besides isn't the whole point of the oathpact was to stop the fused from returning. How does that work with the everstorm existing ? I don't think the known function of it works anymore, maybe it's secret function(since Odium is still trying to kill heralds) related to his prison. The oathpact is kinda flawed solution to begin with. It merely meant to delay and there might be other fundamentally better solutions to Odium 1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said: Also, Taln deserves better. I mean if we're gonna be onboard with the renewing of Oathpact thing why not as well put the best of the profession on field xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 I can see it being an ending to the first src. It would work a little like Avengers: Infinity War where (SPOILER): Spoiler The villain wins The ending to that movie might be my favorite movie ending ever. It was incredibly effectful. I wouldn’t say no to something similar from SA. Then, of course, the Oathpact is useless nowadays, so it will be pointless unless the Everstorm is stopped somehow, which may or may not be possible. If it is, I can see that being the ending to book 5. The KR win by stopping the Everstorm, but lose in that they still haven’t bested Odium, and thus need Heralds. It would be a badass ending if ten people, a mix of old and new Heralds, swore an oath, and died for Roshar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 Thank you for writing up on this @RShara. This is quite similar to how I feel about the idea of a second Oathpact and our current batch of Radiants becoming the next Heralds. From the WoB's that you have listed it would appear that book 5 will have a solid conclusion to the arc rather than a cliffhanger. It is entirely possible that the threat of Odium is dealt with by book 5 with new problems arising in the second half of books. Odium has been built up as a lean, mean splintering machine so it would be a big twist if he were not the villain in the second half of books as well. One of the reasons why I believe a second Oathpact will not be made as resolution for the first stormlight arc is because Brandon is a big Wheel of Time fan. If you have read Wheel of Time then you will know that certain events play out in a constant cycle. I don't think Brandon would write his magnum opus series in such a similar way as another fantasy powerhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypatia she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) My greatest problem with this possibility is the wording: REnewing, REmaking, REstoring - whatever you call it, for me this is REgression, not PROgression. Old ways, old mistakes in contrary to innovation, orginality, novelty. Is it even possible to go back? There were so many changes, like - as said above - the Everstorm. Whatever happened with Jezrien - we just have 9 Heralds more or less living at the moment. Nale has switched sides. All of the Heralds are now broken. Until Taln was left alone on Braize, he was the "last man standing". The Parshendi/Listeners are starting to enter the system - and I believe this possible because the Oathpact has lost its fuction. Odium has agreed to the fight with champions. Last, but not least - Honor is dead. Getting the knowledge of the past is good as long as you also try to avoid past mistakes and especially in OB - with the novelty of Renarin or Venli - we have gotten the base of a new pacing. Edited July 17, 2018 by hypatia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 6 hours ago, CrazyRioter said: I'm not sure most of the Heralds are in a fit state to make that decision even if it can be done without Jezrien. Also, Taln deserves better. I would like to see Taln form a new shard, not Dalinar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent34 Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said: I would like to see Taln form a new shard, not Dalinar. An insane Vessel doesn't sound too good... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, Agent34 said: An insane Vessel doesn't sound too good... Taln is the most broken, and yet the most unbroken of the Heralds. He doesn't currently have much of a mind, but he is perfect for his mind to be rebuilt. He is the most honorable, and the only one who didn't rebel against the Oathpact. Unlike the others, he is in a position to be Cultivated. He isn't ready for it yet, but he has 7 books to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: I can see it being an ending to the first src. It would work a little like Avengers: Infinity War where (SPOILER): Reveal hidden contents The villain wins The ending to that movie might be my favorite movie ending ever. It was incredibly effectful. I wouldn’t say no to something similar from SA. Then, of course, the Oathpact is useless nowadays, so it will be pointless unless the Everstorm is stopped somehow, which may or may not be possible. If it is, I can see that being the ending to book 5. The KR win by stopping the Everstorm, but lose in that they still haven’t bested Odium, and thus need Heralds. It would be a badass ending if ten people, a mix of old and new Heralds, swore an oath, and died for Roshar. I can understand that, but there're differences. First, IW is a movie, which allows a lot more latitude in terms of cliffhangers. More specifically, it's a Marvel movie, and there's pretty much always a cliffhanger or hook to get you to watch the next one. Brandon doesn't need that. His books will bring readers back because of his name and his writing, not just because they need to see how the cliffhanger works out. And ending an entire series on a cliffhanger to me is a really bad idea. A book, sure, sometimes. A series? No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, RShara said: I can understand that, but there're differences. First, IW is a movie, which allows a lot more latitude in terms of cliffhangers. More specifically, it's a Marvel movie, and there's pretty much always a cliffhanger or hook to get you to watch the next one. Brandon doesn't need that. His books will bring readers back because of his name and his writing, not just because they need to see how the cliffhanger works out. And ending an entire series on a cliffhanger to me is a really bad idea. A book, sure, sometimes. A series? No. First off, I think Marvel can sell movies based on the Marvel brand and the characters. They don’t need cliffhangers to get people to see the movies. And I agree that a new Oathpact would be a terrible ending to the series. SA5 won’t really be an end to a series though, it’s more like a mid-season break. I feel it could work fine with the proper foreshadowing. Depending on how he writes it, it might not even be a cliffhanger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: First off, I think Marvel can sell movies based on the Marvel brand and the characters. They don’t need cliffhangers to get people to see the movies. And I agree that a new Oathpact would be a terrible ending to the series. SA5 won’t really be an end to a series though, it’s more like a mid-season break. I feel it could work fine with the proper foreshadowing. Depending on how he writes it, it might not even be a cliffhanger. I cited some of the instances where he said it was two series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, RShara said: I cited some of the instances where he said it was two series. He says that it might be seen as two series. That means that it can be seen as one series as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Honestly I tend to think that Odium is going to get away one way or the other, so even if they try to get the Oathpact back I dont think it would work. But I dont think the actual characters would do it that way, I think they are going to eventually try something with more direct involvement of Cultivation, rather than the mroe purely Honor Solution that way the Oathpact; I think Cultivation will help the Oathpact and the Radiants Evolve. Side question, but are we sure that #1 is true? I thought that one directly caused the other, that having his huge, heavily Invested armies trapped in the system is itself what was Trapping him, because in many ways he is that Investiture. EDIT: I see what you are saying. It can be two series in the sense that the first is a definitive arc that is it's own story and the next continues on where that one left of with our same cast, etc. like a Season 2 continuation. OR, it could be a much harder break that all but starts from scratch on Roshar with whatever pieces are left after the dust settles, new Story of new Heroes more like the Scadrial Era's (narratively if not the time jumps). Edited July 17, 2018 by Quantus replies while typing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naurock Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 Whole heartedly agree. No more renewing the Oathpact! Take the upvote, hope it's purple soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Quantus said: Honestly I tend to think that Odium is going to get away one way or the other, so even if they try to get the Oathpact back I dont think it would work. But I dont think the actual characters would do it that way, I think they are going to eventually try something with more direct involvement of Cultivation, rather than the mroe purely Honor Solution that way the Oathpact; I think Cultivation will help the Oathpact and the Radiants Evolve. Side question, but are we sure that #1 is true? I thought that one directly caused the other, that having his huge, heavily Invested armies trapped in the system is itself what was Trapping him, because in many ways he is that Investiture. We're sure that the Stormfather said Odium is bound by Honor and Cultivation. I'm sure Odium could take back the investiture that makes up the Fused if he wanted to. And honestly...even if there are hundreds of Fused, that's such a tiny chunk of a Shard's power that it's not really going to hold him anywhere. Think of - Warbreaker Spoilers Spoiler The thousands and millions of Breaths on Nalthis, and Endowment is in no danger of running out of investiture. The Divine Breath is probably similar to how much investiture a Fused has, so about 2000 Breaths. The God King has over 50k, there are another 20 or 30 Returned running around (at least). There are other people with thousands of Breaths, and there are millions of people around with at least one. Quote I see what you are saying. It can be two series in the sense that the first is a definitive arc that is it's own story and the next continues on where that one left of with our same cast, etc. like a Season 2 continuation. OR, it could be a much harder break that all but starts from scratch on Roshar with whatever pieces are left after the dust settles, new Story of new Heroes more like the Scadrial Era's (narratively if not the time jumps). Yeah that's what I'm thinking of. It compares to me, like Era 1 and Era 2 of Mistborn, rather than Book 1 and Book 2 of a series. Edited July 17, 2018 by RShara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 @RShara I realize my latest post might have sounded kinda stupid. Let me rephrase it: The fact that Brandon says that it ”can be considered” two series ”if you prefer” implies that it is also possible to consider it one series. Otherwise he would have stated plain and simple that it is two different series, not that it can be considered such if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 It's not just the separation of the arcs from a story perspective, you also have to consider the real-life time separation. Brandon has a bunch of books slated in between the arcs that have gotten put on hold due to his commitment to finishing Arc 1, so there is almost certainly going to be a large time gap between the releases of Books 5 and 6. Ending Arc 1 on a down note or a cliffhanger, and then waiting 5-10 years to release the next books would be a big mistake. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 49 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: @RShara I realize my latest post might have sounded kinda stupid. Let me rephrase it: The fact that Brandon says that it ”can be considered” two series ”if you prefer” implies that it is also possible to consider it one series. Otherwise he would have stated plain and simple that it is two different series, not that it can be considered such if you want to. Okay, I see what you mean. But I really think he says more that it's two series, than one. And what @Scion of the Mists said--it's going to be even longer between books 5 and 6, so at least 5 years, maybe 10, between the books. That's a long time to wait for a cliffhanger for a writer like Brandon to leave us in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, RShara said: Okay, I see what you mean. But I really think he says more that it's two series, than one. And what @Scion of the Mists said--it's going to be even longer between books 5 and 6, so at least 5 years, maybe 10, between the books. That's a long time to wait for a cliffhanger for a writer like Brandon to leave us in. I can see that point. I’m not sure that it would be as huge of a cliffhanger as you imagine, but I do see the problem of waiting minimum of five years for the continuation. I doubt Brandon won’t leave threads hanging though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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