World Hopping and Sel

[macros he/him]

So I know a lot of people have been throwing around the idea that worldhoppers are able to travel through means of shardpools. I think some of the recent WoB have helped to strengthen this. I also believe they may help explain why it is hard to travel the cognitive realm on Sel.

 

I know in a current WoB (if someone could help with the link that would be great) that someone asked if Raoden found a way to extend Sarene's life or if he gave himself to the pool and brandon replied that the pool is not what we think it is. We then have this WoB from the chicago signing.

 

 

[1:59:58]: The prevailing theory on the 17th Shard is that Hoid worldhops using Shadesmar. Could you confirm or deny that?
A: Hoid has indeed gotten between worlds before through Shadesmar.
Q: And would you be willing to give us a hint as to how he does that?
A: There are hints in the books. There is a hint in the very first cosmere book I released. [that would be Elantris] Which I thought was a huge hint, but so far I haven't seen anyone talking about it.
Me: Really?
A: Mmhmm. I thought that once people started figuring the cosmere, they would see the massive in-your-face hint I put in that book, but so far, as far as I know, no one has. [some chat about Brandon's tendency to drop sneaky hints and how he likes doing that] Now, the one [hint] about the map, that one I don't think is obvious. I know people have been trying to figure it out. It's something fun once you figure it out, but it's not something huge and obvious. The Elantris once was, like, enormously "HIIINT!"

 

I believe that the shardpools are used for world hopping and the reason it is so hard on Sel is due to all the elantrians giving themselves to the pool. Not knowing exactly how to use the cognitive realm, I think they are hanging around "clogging" it up.  What do you guys think?

Edited March 25, 2014 by macros

[Argent he/him]

That's the Chicago signing, just to fix that.

[trendkill he/him]

Hmm... I'm reading Elantris again right now, and nothing has jumped out at me. But I haven't gotten to the point that Hoid shows up yet, so maybe I'm just not there. I'll try to keep an eye out and see what I notice.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

This really makes me wonder... perhaps you are correct. 

 

Rock meets a man, probably Hoid, coming from the lake (probably with a shardpool or as the shardpool) in his homeland.

 

But if Hoid only traveled via Shardpools, then he wouldn't have had to search out the Well of Ascension right? he would have known where it was already? 

[Khyrindor he/him]

I'm gonna read ALL the Cosmere books again

[Nicrosil he/him]

Huh. Maybe the reason it's hard to travel to Sel is because the Shards are dead. There was a recent WoB that said something along the lines of if there is no one holding the Shard, the magic becomes sentient and does Wonky Things^TM.

 

The real problem is we don't know what a Shardpool exactly is. I believe that it's a sort of gate between the Physical and Spiritual Realms, or maybe between all three. After all, at the two best known Shardpools, the Well of Ascension and the Pits of Hathsin, the Shard's concentrated, Physical form grew.

 

Lets assume that the Shards are largely Spiritual, with only a minimal Cognitive (their Intents) and Physical (the God metals) presence. Assume now that having a Shardholder increases that Cognitive and Physical aspect; the Shard has a consciousness now, even if it is absorbed into the Shard's Intent over time. Maybe creating a Shardpool requires a strong Cognitive or Physical aspect.

 

Maybe this is why traveling to Sel is hard. The two Shardholders are dead, the magic left to run rampant. I remember a theory that the two have even combined, a new "Shard" built from the broken gods of Devotion and Dominion.

 

Thus, with the magic of Sel Shardholder-less (wow that's a clunky word), creating a Shardpool is nigh impossible. The only Shardpool remaining is the Pool of Elantris, a holdover from the previous Shard, now not functioning or severely crippled.

 

Or, this could all be a steaming pile of chull dung. 

[macros he/him]

@argent 

 

thanks for the correction. There's been so many signings lately its hard to keep track of them.

[trendkill he/him]

Just finished the book and yeah... I didn't see any hints about worldhopping...  Unless they were earlier in the book than where I was when this thread was started.

 

I am a disgrace to the clan...

[Observer]

Did the Reod cause enough of a landmass cognitive change to cause problems? We know Shadesmar is tied to the land somehow, so it could relate to that.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Did the Reod cause enough of a landmass cognitive change to cause problems? We know Shadesmar is tied to the land somehow, so it could relate to that.

 

But land in Shadesmar is water... so what would a chasm become... a whirlpool? a spire? 

 

I'm going to go back and have a look at a couple of scenes in Elantris to see if I can figure this...

[Observer]

I can't help but wonder if people who enter the Shardpool are sent where they wish to go, or if they wield it in some way. The Hoed would want to die, and so they would be granted their wish through either method. It's also possible that it does something weird to the spiritweb that could undo the effect of whatever makes a person an Elantrian. IDK.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

But land in Shadesmar is water... so what would a chasm become... a whirlpool? a spire? 

 

I'm going to go back and have a look at a couple of scenes in Elantris to see if I can figure this...

 

Technically it wouldn't be Shadesmar.  Shadesmar is a region of the Cognitive Realm corresponding to Roshar.

 

The theory that I ascribe to is that Cognitive Realm of Sel is dangerous do to the large amount of unbound investiture that is a result of the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

 

Also, if I remember correctly Brandon has talked about how Jasnah prefers to enter the Cognitive Realm physically, and that we had seen someone else enter the Cognitive Realm physically as well. (This was before WoR) The only thing I can think that fits is the Elantrians in the Pool.  With the new WoB that there is a "big clue" in Elantris and I think that it is pretty solid?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Technically it wouldn't be Shadesmar.  Shadesmar is a region of the Cognitive Realm corresponding to Roshar.

 

The theory that I ascribe to is that Cognitive Realm of Sel is dangerous do to the large amount of unbound investiture that is a result of the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion.

 

Also, if I remember correctly Brandon has talked about how Jasnah prefers to enter the Cognitive Realm physically, and that we had seen someone else enter the Cognitive Realm physically as well. (This was before WoR) The only thing I can think that fits is the Elantrians in the Pool.  With the new WoB that there is a "big clue" in Elantris and I think that it is pretty solid?

 

I agree with your theory, could also be that Shallan entered physically in tWoK? But ?? on the first part.

 

Shadesmar is just a name for the Cognitive Realm as named by the "first people who found it" but the Cognitive realm is still the Cognitive Realm regardless of which world you access it on (though Sel presents difficulties). It's still "Shadesmar" as we know it, just with a different name. So the water areas would be land, etc. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I agree with your theory, could also be that Shallan entered physically in tWoK? But ?? on the first part.

 

Shadesmar is just a name for the Cognitive Realm as named by the "first people who found it" but the Cognitive realm is still the Cognitive Realm regardless of which world you access it on (though Sel presents difficulties). It's still "Shadesmar" as we know it, just with a different name. So the water areas would be land, etc. 

 

No its definitely a region:

 

 

Q: Is Shadesmar just a name for the Cognitive Realm or is there a difference?

 

A: The answer he gave me was a little confusing but he clarified it by saying that it was like San Diego was a part of the United States but the United States wasn’t a part of San Diego. I asked if this meant that Shadesmar was a location in the Cognitive Realm and he said yes.

 

(source)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

No its definitely a region:

 

 

(source)

 

Then we have conflicting WoB going on here (source):

 

What's going on here is an interaction between the three realms. I don't want to bore you with my made up philosophy, but I do have a cohesive metaphysical reasoning for how my worlds and magic works. And there is a single plane of existence—called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm—which connects them all. (emphasis added)

 

 

Either he has refined his thinking or there was a mis-communication in the more recent quote. 

 

Every quote we have about Shadesmar talks about it in direct relation to the Cognitive Realm overall ("Hoid is adept at manipulating Shadesmar"...etc.). There are other quotes I've seen that say people on different worlds wouldn't necessarily call it Shadesmar, but by a different name. 

 

Either way though, the Cognitive Realm is the same every where which was my main point. Land = Water and vice versa. What would the Chasm area of Arelon appear to be in the Cognitive Realm? Ideas?

Edited March 26, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Tempus]

It's not clear that land always equals water. Given that the 'water' is a sea of beads, I'm of the personal opinion that the terrain is representative of cognitive entity density. 'The ocean' is one big cognitive thing, and there are a bunch of cognitive things inside it. As a result, when they are on 'the ocean' there is a big flat glassy land surface (the bead of the ocean), and a bunch of smaller ones beneath it. Land however, has tons of tiny cognitive entities on top of it - sand and rocks and plants and insects and germs and other junk. So there are a sea of tiny cognitive entities ON TOP of the land, representing all the things on top of it. So Land is more like one of those kids rooms with all the balls in it, and acts like an ocean. So it's not that terrain is inverted, but that cognitive entity density is the prime factor and it happens to work out that things are usually inverted.

 

Just my take on what we know of the cognitive realm so far. It's also likely that different worlds have different types of realms - we know Sel's is very dangerous, but we don't know why.

[TheOneKEA]

I think the Cognitive Realm on Sel is dangerous because the splintered bits of the two Shards have self-organized into a new semi-Shard with a partially formed cognitive aspect tainted by Odium's actions, and thus is lashing out on instinct against any being that comes within range in self-defense.

As for the big hint that Brandon is alluding to, didn't Raoden hear a voice talking to him when he touched the pool, asking him where he wanted to go? Or am I grossly misremembering that sequence?

[Tempus]

I think the Cognitive Realm on Sel is dangerous because the splintered bits of the two Shards have self-organized into a new semi-Shard with a partially formed cognitive aspect tainted by Odium's actions, and thus is lashing out on instinct against any being that comes within range in self-defense.

As for the big hint that Brandon is alluding to, didn't Raoden hear a voice talking to him when he touched the pool, asking him where he wanted to go? Or am I grossly misremembering that sequence?

 

Semi-shard? What's your basis for that supposition? There's a lot of big guesses in there.

 

As for the pool....

 

 

"Come, it pled, I give you release ... Come, it pled, you can finally give up." - The Pool, Elantris

 

The pool is claimed by the narrative 'to be a thing alive'. Maybe that's the big hint. HEY EVERYBODY, THIS POOL IS ALIVE AND TALKING AND DISINTEGRATING PEOPLE. Honestly hard to tell, especially since I'm not sure what that would imply as a hint.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Tempus

[burke]

From Elantris:

> "Over there," Karata said, pointing at the far end of the rectangular room, where the wall held only a single mural. It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstretched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval.

This would be the hint. The white sphere probably represents another world, or some sort of nexus, or whatever.

Edited March 26, 2014 by burke

[Argent he/him]

Two things bother me about the theory that the pool can be used for worldhopping:

1. Nothing in the pool's behavior suggests that it could be used for transportation - it's all about release, letting go, ceasing your (physical?) existence. The voice in Raoden's head didn't ask him where he wanted to go (which he could've interpreted as "do you want to go to the afterlife or stay here?"), it told him he can let go, give up, be at peace.
2. Elantrians melt when they submit to the pool's will. This makes for a pretty crappy method of transportation - and it doesn't seem like they disappear in the pool and maybe appear somewhere else, they actually melt in there. 

I still think Aon Tia (Travel, Transportation) is the key to all this. The reason Hoid was on Sel could've been so he can figure out how to worldhop without having to rely on Shadesmar, which could potentially be dangerous and time-consuming. So instead he survives whatever dangers Shadesmar has bred around Sel once, hacks AonDor so it works with other geographies, and now he knows how to change Aon Tia so it works with every Shardworld's geography. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Aon Tia would be just as if not more dangerous than Shadesmar in the Sel region though don't you think?

 

To use Tia you have to know exact distances according to the in world explanations we have, which without some very advanced mathematics would be very hard to use to travel between worlds.  

 

I agree that there is something weird about the pool, and maybe the white sphere in the mural is a hint, but i'm unconvinced that is our hint. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

To explain myself I do not think the shardpools are used for worldhopping, directly.  I think they facilitate transitioning between the Physical and Cognitive (and maybe the Spiritual?) Realms.  Once a person is in the Cognitive Realm they can worldhop but the shardpool is no longer really a factor in that process. 

 

And I do think that when the Elantrians are "dissolving" they are being transitioned to the Cognitive Realm.  As I mentioned (I think?) in my previous post, I remember a WoB where Brandon says we have seen someone enter the Cognitive Realm physically who isn't Jasnah/Shallan, the only thing I can think of that fits is the Elantrians.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

It's certainly possible that the "dissolving" we see of the Elantrian elder has something to do with transitioning between realms. 

 

But wouldn't there be stories/notes in any of the books that Raoden has access to about Elantrians passing through the portal and then coming back? because you should be able to come back through the Shardpool right? 

 

My personal thought that has been developing as we have these discussions is that the dissolving for Elantrians has less to do with realm hopping and more to do with their level of investiture after becoming Elantrian. They seem to be more on par with the Returned in terms of power level. And I imagine that a Returned sinking into Endowment's shardpool would hear a voice asking them to surrender their Divine splinter back to Endowment. Not saying that Elantrians are splinters, just similar power levels, so similar levels of investment. Maybe they are also splinters of Devotion, but willing ones that the magic system continues to generate... 

 

Ahh! We need Elantris 2 with viewpoints about Galladon being recruited to the 17th Shard and then worldhopping away!

[Swimmingly he/him]

It's possible that Hoid is simply impossible to hurt without breaking off his supply of power from several Shards at the same time, and so can basically saunter saucily through whatever terrible beasts/raging energies/haunted lands inhabit Selish Shadesmar.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Love that idea, and while it is probably true, how did Galladon start worldhopping or get hooked up with the 17th Shard? Aon Tia?