A Cosmere Question

[darniil he/him]

I did a quick scan through the subjects here, but I didn't notice anything that jumped out as my question. If it was already asked and answered, my apologies.

TL;DR (for those with knowledge of Amber terms): Is the cosmere just a "Local Group" of related Shadows, or is it just one Shadow?

Not that much longer version: Is each book series its own unique dimension, or do each of the series take place in the same dimension (but obviously different planets)?

The impression I got is that they're their own separate Shadows. Now, I could easily be wrong, but I find it hard to imagine such vastly different magic systems existing in the same place. To me, that's like having completely different laws of physics within the same universe, and no Grand Unification Theory to reconcile them. (Edit: Not to mention the whole "feel" of "separateness" of the various Shards.)

(And yes, I'm a big Amber fan. "Huge" does not quite do justice to my enjoyment of the books. I've played in one or another Amber:DRPG game for the past 15 years. Consequently, just about every story I read that I enjoy, I think of ways that it could fit in with that setting. And Shadesmar sounds like it would make a convenient Undershadow. >_> )

Edited August 23, 2011 by darniil

[Chaos he/him]

The Silence Divine, a future cosmere book, shares a solar system with Roshar, so I would say it is one dimension but different planets.

I disagree that they seem like different sets of physics. Brandon has even said there is a Grand Unification Theory for his magic systems. The reason we see variance of magic systems is (from my perspective) different Shards on different worlds. The Realmatic interactions between the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms would remain the same. We just don't know all that much about Realmatic theory to understand it.

The different magics are just different aspects of the power of creation, just as each Shard has a different aspect/intent to the power of creation. Makes perfect sense to me.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Chaos

[darniil he/him]

The reason we see variance of magic systems is (from my perspective) different Shards on different worlds. The Realmatic interactions between the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms would remain the same. We just don't know all that much about Realmatic theory to understand it.

Oh, ok. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Especially if he has a Grand Unification Theory for the various magic systems.

It does, however, bring up other questions:

1. Is Odium trying to destroy/kill others who hold Shards? If so, why aren’t more dead? If all sixteen shards are within the same universe, it should be pretty easy to find the others.

2. The Desolations are massive upheavals in the world of Roshar. Practically apocalyptic, even. I can see how Desolations might be Roshar-centric - the current in-book theory about Voidbringers would mean they’re unique to Roshar - but what we see of the Radiants suggests that they’re bigger than Roshar, that their “circles” extend farther than one planet. Why is there no mention of anything like them on Nalthis or Sel? (I can guess why there’d be no mention of them on Scadrial, if they’d ever been there.)

3. Could Endowment Awaken a Returned on Roshar? Without Biochromatic breath existing there, I imagine a Returned wouldn’t last longer than a week on Roshar, but could it happen? Or are Shards limited to influencing only the planets where their loci (pools) are?

3A. If that’s the case, how was Odium able to interact on Sel?

3B. Can loci be moved? If not, then this would suggest that Preservation’s and Ruin’s loci were stuck on a dead planet after Adonalsium’s shattering, stuck there alone for an unknown amount time, until Preservation managed to convince Ruin to create life. (Was it Life, or Sentient Life? I can’t remember. I think is was Life, and that Sentient Life was given just a touch more of Preservation.)

I’m sure the answer to all of these is “RAFO”, so I’ll just wait. And speculate. :-/

[Mad_Scientist he/him]

1. Is Odium trying to destroy/kill others who hold Shards? If so, why aren’t more dead? If all sixteen shards are within the same universe, it should be pretty easy to find the others.

Well, he did kill the two Shards on Sel. So he's already killed at least 3 of the 15 other Shards. But I imagine it must be dangerous and difficult even for him to kill another Shard, so he has to be careful.

2. The Desolations are massive upheavals in the world of Roshar. Practically apocalyptic, even. I can see how Desolations might be Roshar-centric - the current in-book theory about Voidbringers would mean they’re unique to Roshar - but what we see of the Radiants suggests that they’re bigger than Roshar, that their “circles” extend farther than one planet. Why is there no mention of anything like them on Nalthis or Sel? (I can guess why there’d be no mention of them on Scadrial, if they’d ever been there.)

Really? I never got the impression the Radiants were bigger than Roshar or that they were on other planets. I'm curious what parts made you think that.

3. Could Endowment Awaken a Returned on Roshar? Without Biochromatic breath existing there, I imagine a Returned wouldn’t last longer than a week on Roshar, but could it happen? Or are Shards limited to influencing only the planets where their loci (pools) are?

3A. If that’s the case, how was Odium able to interact on Sel?

3B. Can loci be moved? If not, then this would suggest that Preservation’s and Ruin’s loci were stuck on a dead planet after Adonalsium’s shattering, stuck there alone for an unknown amount time, until Preservation managed to convince Ruin to create life. (Was it Life, or Sentient Life? I can’t remember. I think is was Life, and that Sentient Life was given just a touch more of Preservation.)

I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the shardpools. It's not clear yet if a Shard always has to have some sort of shardpool. We never saw any in Warbreaker or Way of Kings, though perhaps they exist there and we just haven't seen them.

Anyways, for your first part, I think that a Shard's area of influence doesn't really have anything to do with where their shardpools are. Not precisely at least. Rather, I think it is simply based on where the Shards themselves are at the moment. The Shards are not omniscent and they do have "bodies" of sorts. Spiritual bodies, but bodies still. Those bodies seem able to encompass an entire planet, but I don't think they can go much beyond that.

As for 3A, see my answer below.

Brandon stated that Sazed could, if he wanted to, essentially just will himself over to any other planet in the cosmere. Odium went to Sel and somehow managed to kill the Shards there. Brandon stated that Preservation and Ruin were attracted to each other in a kind of "opposities attract" way. All these things seem to imply that Shards can move around freely from planet to planet. So I'd say that if a Shard moves to a new world, any shardpools it has would move as well, or simply be absorbed into the Shard.

[darniil he/him]

Really? I never got the impression the Radiants were bigger than Roshar or that they were on other planets. I'm curious what parts made you think that.

My apologies. I meant the Heralds.

Not other planets, per se, but other places. It was the descriptions of the post-Desolation place that the Heralds went to when they were done fighting a Desolation (died/were victorious). It may have just been how I interpreted things when I read that part, but that place seemed like an alternate dimension/phase shift/astral plane/afterlife kind of thing that encompassed more than one world. (Like how a bowl of oatmeal can encompass a bunch of raisins. And if they went from a raisin to the oatmeal, why would they only be able to return to that one raisin?)

Since we know there are three realms in the cosmere, I guess that place they went to wasn’t another dimension; probably just another one of the realms. (I’m guessing cognitive, since it’s not the “afterlife” of the spiritual realm. But then again, they do experience pain - hooks, right? That sounds physical, even though pain can be something other than physical. Though I guess the hooks could be a metaphorical interpretation of something more abstract. Then again, are we sure that they go to one of the three realms? I think I’ll stop now, since I’m talking myself into circles.)

I think that a Shard's area of influence doesn't really have anything to do with where their shardpools are. Not precisely at least. Rather, I think it is simply based on where the Shards themselves are at the moment.

So, the Shardpools - I still like “loci”; makes me feel like i r smrt (and it works better with something that isn’t a pool, like the Pits of Hathsin) - would be mobile, then, but only insofar as wherever the Shard is focusing its attention. Since Preservation and Ruin focused on Roshar, their Shardpools settled there. If they moved their attention elsewhere, then their Shardpools would move with them, much like how a shadow follows the body that casts it. Okay, that makes sense.

So, then, if a Shard focused its attention to another world, and its Shardpool went to that other world, would the magic move with it? Preservation directly powered allomancy, so if Preservation went elsewhere, there would be nothing to power allomancy. Therefore, no allomancy on Roshar, and probably no feruchemy, either.

Tangent: Does a Shard actually generate a type of magic? We’re told Preservation powers allomancy directly, Ruin powers hemalurgy indirectly (as in, Ruin does not give any of itself for Hemalurgy to operate), and it’s suggested that the interaction between the two generates feruchemy. Empowerment generates Awakening/BioChroma. Syl, an honorspren, said she binds things. Szeth “binds” things, too, using his abilities. Honor, then, probably generates bindings. Is there anything that says that the magic generated by a Shard can’t also be essential to a creature? (That is, where the magic is the creautre?) Could the Voidbringers be generated by Odium, and could they have gone with it to Sel? (I guess magic could be localized in a type of creature, since feruchemy was only found in the people of Terris. Perhaps Odium’s magic is found only in a specific type of life - Voidbringers.)

[Quantum Toast he/him]

It was the descriptions of the post-Desolation place that the Heralds went to when they were done fighting a Desolation (died/were victorious). It may have just been how I interpreted things when I read that part, but that place seemed like an alternate dimension/phase shift/astral plane/afterlife kind of thing that encompassed more than one world. (Like how a bowl of oatmeal can encompass a bunch of raisins. And if they went from a raisin to the oatmeal, why would they only be able to return to that one raisin?)

Since we know there are three realms in the cosmere, I guess that place they went to wasn’t another dimension; probably just another one of the realms. (I’m guessing cognitive, since it’s not the “afterlife” of the spiritual realm. But then again, they do experience pain - hooks, right? That sounds physical, even though pain can be something other than physical. Though I guess the hooks could be a metaphorical interpretation of something more abstract. Then again, are we sure that they go to one of the three realms? I think I’ll stop now, since I’m talking myself into circles.)

Could be the Tranquiline Halls, from all the references to them I get the impression they're currently under Odium's control. And if they're supposed to be Roshar's afterlife, I figure they're probably the local area of the Spiritual Realm.

[Mad_Scientist he/him]

Ah, the Heralds. That makes more sense. I still don't think the Heralds are involved in any planets aside from Roshar though.

We know there are three realms: the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. But we also know that there is actually something else, a fourth realm of sorts that exists beyond the three realms, the true afterlife, which is not the same thing as the spiritual realm. This hasn't really been talked about much in the books, but Brandon has answered some questions about it. This true afterlife is the place where Vin and Elend are, and is a place even Sazed cannot reach into very well. (At least not at the time Hero of Ages ended.) Since Sazed was able to tell that Vin and Elend were happy, it's not unreasonable to presume that this true afterlife contains at least something akin to a heaven. I suppose it also might have something like a hell.

Some people never reach this place after death. Brandon hasn't revealed the details of how, but some people with certain connections to the physical realm can hang around after death in either the cognitive or spiritual realms. This is what happened to Kelsier in Mistborn. So he's dead, but not as dead as Vin and Elend, if that makes sense.

Now, finally we get to the Heralds and the odditiy of their situation. After death, they go to a place of torment. It's possible that they are reaching the true afterlife, but that raises two very big questions. First, how is one of the Shards on Roshar reaching the true afterlife when even Sazed couldn't? Second, why are the Heralds suffering there? They certainly don't seem like people who have done something worthy of damnation. If anything, its quite the opposite. At least before breaking the oathpact, they were heroes who fought to save the world, or so it seemed.

So I suspect the Heralds are never reaching the true afterlife, and are instead getting stuck in either the spiritual or cognitive realms. I suspect the spiritual. And since the Shards seem to have a lot of power over those realms, it certainly seems possible that one of them (such as Odium) could have created his own personal hell inside the spiritual realm somewhere.

That still leaves the question as to why the Heralds would be required to go there between desolations, of course. But there are a lot of things about the oathpact that seem odd to me. I suspect there is something huge that I am missing, something that should be obvious.

[Aashyma she/her]

That still leaves the question as to why the Heralds would be required to go there between desolations, of course. But there are a lot of things about the oathpact that seem odd to me. I suspect there is something huge that I am missing, something that should be obvious.

From what I gathered after reading the book, the Heralds seemed to have a pact with Odium/whoever controls the Voidbringers that the longer they last under the torture, the longer he'll hold off the Voidbringers.

[Dros]

Ah, the Heralds. That makes more sense. I still don't think the Heralds are involved in any planets aside from Roshar though.

We know there are three realms: the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. But we also know that there is actually something else, a fourth realm of sorts that exists beyond the three realms, the true afterlife, which is not the same thing as the spiritual realm. This hasn't really been talked about much in the books, but Brandon has answered some questions about it. This true afterlife is the place where Vin and Elend are, and is a place even Sazed cannot reach into very well. (At least not at the time Hero of Ages ended.) Since Sazed was able to tell that Vin and Elend were happy, it's not unreasonable to presume that this true afterlife contains at least something akin to a heaven. I suppose it also might have something like a hell.

Some people never reach this place after death. Brandon hasn't revealed the details of how, but some people with certain connections to the physical realm can hang around after death in either the cognitive or spiritual realms. This is what happened to Kelsier in Mistborn. So he's dead, but not as dead as Vin and Elend, if that makes sense.

Now, finally we get to the Heralds and the odditiy of their situation. After death, they go to a place of torment. It's possible that they are reaching the true afterlife, but that raises two very big questions. First, how is one of the Shards on Roshar reaching the true afterlife when even Sazed couldn't? Second, why are the Heralds suffering there? They certainly don't seem like people who have done something worthy of damnation. If anything, its quite the opposite. At least before breaking the oathpact, they were heroes who fought to save the world, or so it seemed.

So I suspect the Heralds are never reaching the true afterlife, and are instead getting stuck in either the spiritual or cognitive realms. I suspect the spiritual. And since the Shards seem to have a lot of power over those realms, it certainly seems possible that one of them (such as Odium) could have created his own personal hell inside the spiritual realm somewhere.

That still leaves the question as to why the Heralds would be required to go there between desolations, of course. But there are a lot of things about the oathpact that seem odd to me. I suspect there is something huge that I am missing, something that should be obvious.

Are we sure they all go to a place of torment? The only part of the book involving a Herald is from Kalak's POV. Maybe the torment is just his own madness...a figment of his broken mind. Maybe it's different for all the Heralds.

In a statement from BS describing the story line for WoK he says it involves ten angelic warriors, who have gone insane in their own different ways, as a result of defending mankind from Odium's attacks for centuries on end. Maybe they only think they go to a place of torment and there's actually nothing wrong with the Oathpact, there's a just a flaw in the Heralds.

[Squallor he/him]

In a statement from BS describing the story line for WoK he says it involves ten angelic warriors, who have gone insane in their own different ways, as a result of defending mankind from Odium's attacks for centuries on end. Maybe they only think they go to a place of torment and there's actually nothing wrong with the Oathpact, there's a just a flaw in the Heralds.

That is quite interesting. Do you have a source for that? It would be really interesting they kind of make their own hell. This does pose the question though: why would they envision themselves in hell between desolations? If they did go insanse, i find it hard that they would go to a fire and brimstone kind of plane.

The other side might be that they have gone insane since they abandoned the Oathpact, and the hell they go to is real. A few thousand years of hiding your immortality might get to someone after awhile. Honestly, I find this scenario a bit more likely.

[Dros]

That is quite interesting. Do you have a source for that? It would be really interesting they kind of make their own hell. This does pose the question though: why would they envision themselves in hell between desolations? If they did go insanse, i find it hard that they would go to a fire and brimstone kind of plane.

The other side might be that they have gone insane since they abandoned the Oathpact, and the hell they go to is real. A few thousand years of hiding your immortality might get to someone after awhile. Honestly, I find this scenario a bit more likely.

Here's a link to his description of the Stormlight Archives:

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/29/Tor-Proposal-Part-Four

I think you're probably right about the insanity manifesting after they break the Oathpact. The rest of the books might just be about the characters trying to find the mad Heralds, slap 'em around a bit and get them back into the fight. But, the way the Oathpact seems to be flawed just really bothers me for some reason. It's just such a terrible deal and I would think the Heralds and especially Honor would be savvy enough to avoid being, or having your champions, tortured for years on end.

And there's the quote from a Chapter heading most folks seem to think comes from Talenel, which seems to indicate he's bearing the full onslaught of the Herald's madness when they broke the Oathpact:

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.

I'm just skeptical the Heralds accepted torture in between the Desolations, even if they knew the result would be an ability to to defend mankind. The horrors of being in the middle of such conflicts would seem to be enough to destroy a man's mind, they really had to know to add torture to it would seriously erode their ability to defend Roshar (at least Honor should have known)? Doesn't make sense to me. There's something to it.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Droz

[darniil he/him]

Honor would be savvy enough to avoid being, or having your champions, tortured for years on end.

That could have happened after Honor was killed. I don't think we know precisely when that happened.

[happyman he/him]

For the people wondering why the Heralds were being tortured between desolations, I have no answer. I think we can safely guess that either they (or Honor) had no real choice in the matter, or they were tricked. That's exactly the kind of back-story Brandon does best, though, and if it isn't at least a little bit involved, I would be very disappointed.

[Mad_Scientist he/him]

That could have happened after Honor was killed. I don't think we know precisely when that happened.

When Dalinar saw his final vision, Honor said something like "some of what I have shown you is things I witnessed directly, but this is something I fear." Not the exact words, but close. That means that Honor was still alive during the time of at least some of Dalinar's visions, and every single vision Dalinar saw took place after the Heralds had started fighting. Given Honor's comments on how he has trouble seeing the future and given how clear most of Dalinar's visions were, I'd suspect that Honor didn't even die until sometime after the Knight's Radiant abandoning mankind in the Recreance.

I don't think that the hell the Heralds experience was just a form of madness. When Kalak was talking about how he "can't go back there," Jezrien seemed to know what he was talking about.

I still don't understand the oathpact and why it was the way it was. But there are a lot of VERY strange things happening in Roshar. A part of me almost wonders if Honor and Odium were working together to fight a common foe: the "enemy" mentioned in the prelude is never named, and we've all just been assuming it was Odium. Of course, if Honor and Odium were working together, it raises the question of who the heck they were fighting. A part of me almost wonders if they were fighting a Cultivation gone mad and causing the desolations in order to stop Cultivation from destroying the world through... over-cultivation? Ok that sounds weird, but we know that pretty much any Shard intent taken to extremes can be dangerous. An issue with this theory though is that "the enemy" was referred to as a he and Cultivation was referred to as a she. And if they aren't fighting Cultivation, than who?

Honestly, I think there may be something other than a Shard on Roshar, something that is somehow so dangerous it required more than one Shard to work together to fight it. There are some oddities I have noticed.

In one of Dalinar's visions of the past, a woman uses the oath "three gods." This seems to be an obvious reference to the three Shards on Roshar. But this vision took place during the cycle of desolations. If mankind had been fighting Odium for centuries, perhaps millenia, why would a woman include Odium alongside Cultivation and Honor in an oath like that? Even if she did aknowledge Odium as a god of sorts, would she refer to him in such a casual manner that implies no difference between him and the other gods? I suppose maybe the "three gods" thing is a red hering, and was actually not referring to the Shards on Roshar.

In one of the chapter epigraphs, we learn that "3 of 16 ruled, but now the broken one reigns." The 3 of 16 is obviously talking about the three Shards on Roshar. But... the way that is phrased almost implies that they are ruled together. Also, the way that is phrased strongly implies (though does not outright state) that the "broken one" is NOT one of the 3 of 16. This seems to conflict slightly with Kaladin's vision which mentioned that Odium reigns, and creates another oddity. Maybe the broken one is referring to Odium, but why would he be called that? He's not broken in any way that we know of.

In Honor's final vision to Dalanir, he says that he should have known Odium would come for him. Ok, that means that Honor apparantly didn't expect Odium to come for him. But wait a second. If Odium is the enemy being fought by the Heralds, than that means that Honor has been fighting Odium for millenia, and then was surprised when Odium tried to kill him?! That makes no sense. Yes, Honor did say he should have known Odium would come for him, but I doubt Honor is so stupid as to not realize someone that has been battling him for years would try to kill him. I could easily see Honor not expecting Odium to betray him if they had been working together though (being blinded by his own nature as Honor).

All in all, there are just so many oddities I can't explain to my satisfaction. I'm not sure what could possibly be a threat to Shards yet not be a Shard itself, but I have a strong hunch that something like that does exist on Roshar.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

In Honor's final vision to Dalanir, he says that he should have known Odium would come for him. Ok, that means that Honor apparantly didn't expect Odium to come for him. But wait a second. If Odium is the enemy being fought by the Heralds, than that means that Honor has been fighting Odium for millenia, and then was surprised when Odium tried to kill him?! That makes no sense. Yes, Honor did say he should have known Odium would come for him, but I doubt Honor is so stupid as to not realize someone that has been battling him for years would try to kill him. I could easily see Honor not expecting Odium to betray him if they had been working together though (being blinded by his own nature as Honor).

In the prologue Kalak says "The enemy will not remain bound by this." Honor also suggests finding a champion to Dalanir saying that the enemy is bound by certain rules. It might be possible that this is what had been done in the past. A pact with champions for each side that bound Odium and prevented him from attacking Honor. Honor being, well, honorable could not imagine Odium breaking that pact while even one Herald remained bound. Odium of course would attack as soon as he was not constrained from doing so, but in this situation I could see Honor not expecting it.

[Zas678 he/him]

We know there are three realms: the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. But we also know that there is actually something else, a fourth realm of sorts that exists beyond the three realms, the true afterlife, which is not the same thing as the spiritual realm. This hasn't really been talked about much in the books, but Brandon has answered some questions about it. This true afterlife is the place where Vin and Elend are, and is a place even Sazed cannot reach into very well. (At least not at the time Hero of Ages ended.) Since Sazed was able to tell that Vin and Elend were happy, it's not unreasonable to presume that this true afterlife contains at least something akin to a heaven. I suppose it also might have something like a hell.

Some people never reach this place after death. Brandon hasn't revealed the details of how, but some people with certain connections to the physical realm can hang around after death in either the cognitive or spiritual realms. This is what happened to Kelsier in Mistborn. So he's dead, but not as dead as Vin and Elend, if that makes sense.

Here's what Brandon has to say about the Afterlife.

Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier--who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in MB3 at the right moments.

[iceheart]

When Dalinar saw his final vision, Honor said something like "some of what I have shown you is things I witnessed directly, but this is something I fear." Not the exact words, but close.

one thing that I noticed here is that in this scene Dalinar saw the remains *of his own castle*. So Honor somehow while "showing what he feared" managed to include dalinar's home into the vision? Does that mean that Gavilar (who I assume was having visions in the end) also saw how brother's ruined castle?

[Aashyma she/her]

one thing that I noticed here is that in this scene Dalinar saw the remains *of his own castle*. So Honor somehow while "showing what he feared" managed to include dalinar's home into the vision? Does that mean that Gavilar (who I assume was having visions in the end) also saw how brother's ruined castle?

isn't that the castle of the King of Alethi?

It's not too much of a stretch-these building are very old and it's quite possible that they would have been standing since before Honour's fall.

[Jaconis]

I still don't understand the oathpact and why it was the way it was. But there are a lot of VERY strange things happening in Roshar. A part of me almost wonders if Honor and Odium were working together to fight a common foe: the "enemy" mentioned in the prelude is never named, and we've all just been assuming it was Odium. Of course, if Honor and Odium were working together, it raises the question of who the heck they were fighting. A part of me almost wonders if they were fighting a Cultivation gone mad and causing the desolations in order to stop Cultivation from destroying the world through... over-cultivation? Ok that sounds weird, but we know that pretty much any Shard intent taken to extremes can be dangerous. An issue with this theory though is that "the enemy" was referred to as a he and Cultivation was referred to as a she. And if they aren't fighting Cultivation, than who?

In Honor's final vision to Dalanir, he says that he should have known Odium would come for him. Ok, that means that Honor apparantly didn't expect Odium to come for him. But wait a second. If Odium is the enemy being fought by the Heralds, than that means that Honor has been fighting Odium for millenia, and then was surprised when Odium tried to kill him?! That makes no sense. Yes, Honor did say he should have known Odium would come for him, but I doubt Honor is so stupid as to not realize someone that has been battling him for years would try to kill him. I could easily see Honor not expecting Odium to betray him if they had been working together though (being blinded by his own nature as Honor).

All in all, there are just so many oddities I can't explain to my satisfaction. I'm not sure what could possibly be a threat to Shards yet not be a Shard itself, but I have a strong hunch that something like that does exist on Roshar.

You bring up an interesting point. I feel like they couldn't possibly have worked together based on their Shards' intents, but these oddities are very confusing.

However, while we know that Honor's final recording is done after the Heralds have been fighting in the Desolations, the time frame Honor is referring to isn't very clear. You seem to think he's saying that he shouldn't have been surprised Odium came after him when they had been battling for centuries. I'm not sure that's what he means. I think he is saying that he shouldn't have been surprised Odium came after him the first place. His lack of preparation for what should have been an expected attack resulted in the Oathpact, which as stated above has some major obvious flaws.

The Oathpact strikes me as something of a desperate Plan B. I think Honor may simply be expressing his regret that his lack of forethought resulted in this pact that was doomed to fail.

I had a lot of trouble putting my thoughts down on this subject. If you're confused, it's likely my fault, not yours.

[Aashyma she/her]

The Oathpact strikes me as something of a desperate Plan B. I think Honor may simply be expressing his regret that his lack of forethought resulted in this pact that was doomed to fail.

Because it would go against his very nature to doubt someone without proof.

That is, in my opinion, a very good theory.

[Dros]

Could explain why Honor apologizes so much in the last vision. It was strange for me thinking he apologized for letting Odium kill him. Regret for the desperate Oathpact and not foreseeing the ramifications of the Oathpact being shattered makes more sense.

You put down your thoughts better than I was able to, Jaconis.

[HardcorePooka he/him]

You bring up an interesting point. I feel like they couldn't possibly have worked together based on their Shards' intents, but these oddities are very confusing.

Honestly, I think the first three Mistborn books proves that extremely disparate shards can work together.... Maybe not for long, but they can do it.

[Chicken]

The way I saw it, Oathpact was to stop Odium from attacking Roshar by giving him 10 volunteers to vent his hatred upon. As long as they could take whatever Odium threw at them, he was content/forced to play only with them. When they inevitably all broke and sought respite (for a time I assume), they got sent back to Roshar with what I think would be called superpowers and Odium got to send his flunkies upon mankind. They duke it out with Voidbringers, which is their holiday, then go back to Odium's playground. With the whole binding business, it could be seen as a way for Honor's chosen to bind Odium.

But now that I think about it, this is a collosally bad deal for Honor. Throwing ten mortals (mere or not) to the wolves, even if to save the rest of humanity, doesn't look all that honorable. Also if they lose a single time, then everything has been for nothing. But Odium gets to do it again and againt until he gets lucky, while he always has something to keep busy while he waits for his next shot at victory. No way this is a fair deal among equals, unless Honor had some massive benefits we don't know about. Which isn't impossible, though a bit unlikely.

However now all this seems quite simplistic to me. Especially remembering the clusterbud of schemes we saw the last time Shards fought. Granted we only saw one such ultimate showdown and it could be the exception rather than the norm of "Shardbattles", but my meta senses tell me Sanderson wouldn't go for a simpler plot. So I got quite attached to this new "they were allies" idea. "Enemy" could really be anything from another Shard to something entirely nonAdonalsiumy. We have no proof if Adonalsium itself wasn't a piece of something even bigger, or he/she/it/they had a few evil twins floating around. The idea of Odium betraying and killing Honor even when they were fighting a common enemy fits both of them to a tee. Honor can't think of betraying his ally, Odium can't think of not attacking a defenseless target. My meta senses also theorize that Sanderson likes inverting things he did in previous books (Kelsier-Denth, Lord Ruler-God King, etc) and when we had two guys named Ruin and Preservation, it wasn't the one who had the "supervillain" name that plotted to outmaneuver and kill the other from the very start.

Baseless speculation for now and admittedly it hinges more on meta knowledge than actual info in books...

Objections to my rambling would be as follows:

What would be more honorable? Should Honor have handed himself over to Odium? Could Honor really trust a guy named Odium to not take advantage of the situation when he's weakened/incapacitated/imprisoned?

Ruin and Preservation are pretty hefty abstract concepts whereas Honor and Odium are somewhat straightforward, instinctual feelings, so these two might not be as manipulative as those two.

Was Cultivation too busy pruning apple trees to do anything while all this happened?

Why did Desolations stop after Heralds quit? Why wouldn't their mutual enemy defeat Odium and do whatever it is it's trying to do (presumably destroying Roshar) when one of the defenders fall?

Would Sanderson introduce a nonAdonalsium power into cosmere out of the blue? If it's another Shard they're fighting, how come 2 (or even 3) Shards had to ally to stop it? (Objection contested: Rayse did kill 2 Shards on Sel, who's to say some other Shard isn't even more powerful than 3 combined?)

That's more objections than supports I think. Either way, I'll stick to this idea like a horse carcass because I'd get to say "toldya" to someone someday. More than half the fun of this stuff is guessing and being proven right.

[Windrunner he/him]

Why did Desolations stop after Heralds quit? Why wouldn't their mutual enemy defeat Odium and do whatever it is it's trying to do (presumably destroying Roshar) when one of the defenders fall?

I think I can answer this one. This is from the back of the hardcover copy of the Way of Kings when it's talking about their supposed victory over the Voidbringers.

The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.

Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the hard they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only makes for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away.

This seems to me to be very much in line with Odium's intent, he would want hatred to divide all of mankind, but giving them a common enemy only brings them together in their struggle for survival. As much as I would like to see an anti-Andonalsium it seems like this would be a better plot line if Brandon ever decides to write a conflux book.

[fiveAM he/him]

In a statement from BS describing the story line for WoK he says it involves ten angelic warriors, who have gone insane in their own different ways,

I just had a fun thought after reading a Silence Divine thread. The magic system described is about being handicapped = magical power, and that chronically injured people, such as people who are blind or deaf are the most powerful. Arguably, mental disorders could be even worse handicaps then physical ones, especially if you consider madness. What if there is some sort of connection? The Heralds are supposed to be uber powerful and the Silence Divine world and Roshar are in the same solar system right? So it doesn't seem completely impossible, or illogical, that there is some sort of connection there.

Of course, without knowing exactly how the magic system in Silence Divine will work, can't really make any actually serious thoughts on it.

Btw I'm new here so play nice if I sound redundant to previously discussed threads/theories.