Some new theories... *spoilers*

[Jaconis]

So I just recently got around to rereading WoK, and I've found a few things worth noting that I didn't notice on other read throughs or seen here. I'm not finished with the reread, so I'm sure there will be more o add as I finish.

1. The first is really the least important, as it doesn't really have anything to do with the story, and may not follow the same pattern that I've noticed. The Shard Preservation, whose original mortal holder was named LERAS, has a bodily essence named LERASium. Similarly, the Shard of Ruin, whose original mortal holder was named ATI, has a bodily essence named ATIum. Does this trend exist simply because the bodily essence of these two shards happen to be metallic and the -ium suffix gives a metallic sounding name, or does this speak of a larger naming convention? Are we going to get Tanavastium and Rayseium?

2. This has to do with something Syl says off-handedly, that, IMO, could be important. Its from when she and Kalladin are talking about how strange people act.

"People are discord," Syl said.

"What does that mean?"

"You all act differently and think differently. Nothing else is like that - animals act alike, and all spren are, in a sense, virtually the same individual."

It is that last line that I think is important. I'm not sure how to explain myself properly, but to me this is proof that the spren are the bodily essence of the Honor, and are connected and/or controlled by him. This is why the Nahel bond is needed to use the magic of Honor. I know it's been stated that spren have to do with Honor, but I hadn't seen this as an argument yet.

3. I think there is some connection between Sadeas and his war camp with the fifth essence (Palah) and therefore the order of Knights Radiant associated with it. The gem focus is an emerald, Sadeas' colors are green. The soulcasting property associated with the essence is wood, Sadeas' camp holds the only forest and deals with wood frequently. These are small things that could be chalked up as coincidence, but Sanderson is usually very detailed and doesn't leave things that don't have a purpose.

The main thing that doesn't line up is the trait associated with the order. Learned/Giving seems to be much more associated with Jasnah than anyone we've met from Sadeas' camp, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong. After all, Shallon wasnt exactly honest until the end of the novel, and it's widely accepted the she will belong to the order that is supposed to be Creative/Honest.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Am I way off on all of this?

[Aashyma she/her]

3. I think there is some connection between Sadeas and his war camp with the fifth essence (Palah) and therefore the order of Knights Radiant associated with it. The gem focus is an emerald, Sadeas' colors are green. The soulcasting property associated with the essence is wood, Sadeas' camp holds the only forest and deals with wood frequently. These are small things that could be chalked up as coincidence, but Sanderson is usually very detailed and doesn't leave things that don't have a purpose.

Sadeas doesn't fulfil the first oath of the Knights Radiant though, the one they all swear by:

Strength before weakness

Jounry before destination,

Life before death.

It is that last line that I think is important. I'm not sure how to explain myself properly, but to me this is proof that the spren are the bodily essence of the Honor, and are connected and/or controlled by him.

Didn't Syl fight off the Deathspren though?

Edit: I don't remember Spren being mentioned during Dallinar's visions or the prelude, now that I think about it. If they were the "body" of Honour, surely they would have been present back then as well?

Edited August 25, 2011 by Aashyma

[Jaconis]

I don't necessarily mean Sadeas himself, just someone from his "camp". Also, as I said, I don't know that saying someone isn't showing a characteristic typical of the Knights is a valid argument against that person eventually changing their ways. Adolin didn't agree with the that first ideal in the beginning either, but eventually came to accept it and the codes.

I forgot about Syl fighting the deathspren. That seems to contradict what she said about them being the same person, regardless if it shows a connection to Honor or not.

[Aashyma she/her]

I don't necessarily mean Sadeas himself, just someone from his "camp". Also, as I said, I don't know that saying someone isn't showing a characteristic typical of the Knights is a valid argument against that person eventually changing their ways. Adolin didn't agree with the that first ideal in the beginning either, but eventually came to accept it and the codes.

Adolin did not explicitly believe in it but he did live it-remember when he defended that prostitute?

Your argument that people change is valid however.

Perhaps we'll see Dallinar bully him into reforming.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Aashyma

[Jaconis]

Edit: I don't remember Spren being mentioned during Dallinar's visions or the prelude, now that I think about it. If they were the "body" of Honour, surely they would have been present back then as well?

Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Nohadon mentions them and the bond, so they clearly existed then. Like I said, the fact that the spren have one mind doesn't necessarily mean they are connected to Honor. I can't fully explain why, it just makes sense to me that if the spren are essentially one mind, and are required for stormlight fueled magic which is apparently of Honor, that the "one mind" would be Honor.

[Asha'man Logain]

Dalinar doesn't see any spren, but Nohadon mentions them and the bond, so they clearly existed then. Like I said, the fact that the spren have one mind doesn't necessarily mean they are connected to Honor. I can't fully explain why, it just makes sense to me that if the spren are essentially one mind, and are required for stormlight fueled magic which is apparently of Honor, that the "one mind" would be Honor.

I took Syl's statement to mean each subset of spren were basically like the same person. You know, all deathspren are attracted to death and act in the same way given the same stimulus. The same way all deer act the same, but deer do not act the same as snakes, both animals but different KINDS of animals. Unless they start to form the bond, in which case they seem to gain sentience from the human, while the human seems to gain some of the spren's powers, both feeding off each other and growing the aspects they didn't have before as the bond grows stronger.

[Mad_Scientist he/him]

I took Syl's statement to mean each subset of spren were basically like the same person. You know, all deathspren are attracted to death and act in the same way given the same stimulus. The same way all deer act the same, but deer do not act the same as snakes, both animals but different KINDS of animals. Unless they start to form the bond, in which case they seem to gain sentience from the human, while the human seems to gain some of the spren's powers, both feeding off each other and growing the aspects they didn't have before as the bond grows stronger.

That's kind of what I think, though I believe the spren that are capable of bonding with humans are unique from the very start, even if they sometimes lose their minds and appear to be "normal" spren.

Regarding spren being essentially one person, Kaladin's mother Hesina had some interesting things to say. I bolded the especially relevant parts.

"Spren live in everything," Hesina replied.

"They can't live in everything, Kal said, dropping a peel into the pail at his feet. He glanced out the window, watching the road that led from the town to the citylord's mansion.

"They do," Hesina said. "Spren appear when something changes--when fear appears, or when it begins to rain. They are the heart of change, and therefore the heart of all things."

"This longroot," Kal said, holding it up skeptically.

"Has a spren."

"And if you slice it up?"

"Each bit has a spren. Only smaller."

(Kaladin's thoughts on the lack of taste of longroots omitted)

"So we eat spren," Kal said flatly.

"No," she said, "we eat the roots."

"When we have to," Tien said with a grimace.

"And the spren?" Kal asked.

"They are freed. To return to wherever it is that spren live."

"Do I have a spren?" Tien said, looking down at his chest.

"You have a soul, dear. You're a person. But the pieces of your body may very well have spren living in them. Very small ones."

I find it interesting the way she talks about spren splitting into pieces that become their own spren, and that fits right into Syl's words. Imagine you have some huge giant stone slab. That has one spren. Break off a bunch of pieces of the stone, and you also break off pieces of the spren. Now each of those rocks has their own spren, but all those spren were originally just a part of the bigger spren. If you think about it that way, perhaps at one time there was just ONE giant stonespren, and every single stonespren that exists now is just a part of that one giant spren.

So in a sense, all spren, all normal spren, are the same individual, or pieces of the same individual. Separated by type of spren, of course.

[Jaconis]

Regarding spren being essentially one person, Kaladin's mother Hesina had some interesting things to say. I bolded the especially relevant parts.

I find it interesting the way she talks about spren splitting into pieces that become their own spren, and that fits right into Syl's words. Imagine you have some huge giant stone slab. That has one spren. Break off a bunch of pieces of the stone, and you also break off pieces of the spren. Now each of those rocks has their own spren, but all those spren were originally just a part of the bigger spren. If you think about it that way, perhaps at one time there was just ONE giant stonespren, and every single stonespren that exists now is just a part of that one giant spren.

So in a sense, all spren, all normal spren, are the same individual, or pieces of the same individual. Separated by type of spren, of course.

I sort of took that exchange to be what she believed, but not anything proven. Nothing we've seen so far shows that spren are "cut up" versions of a big spren of the same type, nor has that idea been mentioned again. We are, of course, only one book in, so I don't know, I could be completely wrong.

On a different subject, I just got to the part where Dalinar finally goes on a plateau assault for the first time in the book (Chapter 26, using the ebook, so don't have page numbers) and found this of note. This is right after he becomes disgusted with the Thrill, and it is no longer consuming him.

Life ended so quickly. The Shardbearer was destruction incarnate, the most powerful force on the battlefield. Once these weapons meant protecting, a voice inside of him whispered.

...

Life before death.

What was that voice?

Whose voice is this?

We've seen that shards have the power to speak directly into a persons mind, but only when they have some sort of connection with the shard. The voice seems to be spouting Honor's philosophy, but Honor is supposedly dead and other shards seem unlikely.

We've also seen that spren can apparently speak directly into the mind of the one they are bonded to, but that was only a fairly strong bond between Syl and Kalladin. It's possible there's a bond that exists between Dalinar and some spren, but that seems unlikely considering he's never reportedly spoken to one. We also don't know for sure that a bond is required for this telepathy.

Thoughts?

Edited August 26, 2011 by Jaconis

[Asha'man Logain]

That's kind of what I think, though I believe the spren that are capable of bonding with humans are unique from the very start, even if they sometimes lose their minds and appear to be "normal" spren.

Regarding spren being essentially one person, Kaladin's mother Hesina had some interesting things to say. I bolded the especially relevant parts.

I find it interesting the way she talks about spren splitting into pieces that become their own spren, and that fits right into Syl's words. Imagine you have some huge giant stone slab. That has one spren. Break off a bunch of pieces of the stone, and you also break off pieces of the spren. Now each of those rocks has their own spren, but all those spren were originally just a part of the bigger spren. If you think about it that way, perhaps at one time there was just ONE giant stonespren, and every single stonespren that exists now is just a part of that one giant spren.

So in a sense, all spren, all normal spren, are the same individual, or pieces of the same individual. Separated by type of spren, of course.

Yeah, I remember that conversation. However I attribute it to one of those things that people believe but are not true. It seems very... provincal? It seems too simple and easy, and given the way his mother was prone to quick wittedness and joking around I'm not even sure she's 100% serious herself when she says that. Kinda like when kids ask 'why' a million times in a row, eventually you just start making stuff up. I'd be willing to bet that spren questions are very like this in a time when the population at large knows almost nothing about spren.

[happyman he/him]

Whose voice is this?

We've seen that shards have the power to speak directly into a persons mind, but only when they have some sort of connection with the shard. The voice seems to be spouting Honor's philosophy, but Honor is supposedly dead and other shards seem unlikely.

We've also seen that spren can apparently speak directly into the mind of the one they are bonded to, but that was only a fairly strong bond between Syl and Kalladin. It's possible there's a bond that exists between Dalinar and some spren, but that seems unlikely considering he's never reportedly spoken to one. We also don't know for sure that a bond is required for this telepathy.

Thoughts?

There is other evidence in the book that Dalinar has begun to show unusual abilities. The fight with the Greatclaw is the best evidence. The theory I like best is that Dalinar is slowly developing into a Stonesinew. If this is true, the source of the voice whispering into his head would be a Spren which he has attracted, but which is barely beginning to become sentient as he begins to develop its virtues.

[Chaos he/him]

It could also be related to Honor's journal, you know. It speaks "Unite them" to Dalinar quite frequently. Sounds a lot like Honor to me.

It'd be cool if it were a spren, though.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Chaos

[Jaconis]

There is other evidence in the book that Dalinar has begun to show unusual abilities. The fight with the Greatclaw is the best evidence. The theory I like best is that Dalinar is slowly developing into a Stonesinew. If this is true, the source of the voice whispering into his head would be a Spren which he has attracted, but which is barely beginning to become sentient as he begins to develop its virtues.

I didn't think of this before, but I'm not really sure it can be a spren. Whomever is talking to Dalinar here clearly has knowledge of the world as it was in ages past. From everything we've seen, spren in their "natural" (sans bond), have very poor memories, unable to remember what happened 30 seconds ago, let alone thousands of years.

Of course, it's possible that the spren bonded with Dalinar long before this event, long before the aforementioned Chasmfiend hunt. I find this unlikely though, as no spren as been shown the communicate with Dalinar yet. Maybe different kind of spren go about the bond differently, but assuming they regain their intelligence and memories at the same rate, Dalinar's spren would have had to bond with him months and months ago to remember things from so long ago. Syl started bonding with Kalladin while he was still in Amaram's (sp?) army, then at least 8 months as a slave, then the entire length of the book and she still doesn't remember the Knights Radiant.

I was hoping it was a spren as well, as that would mean Dalinar is that much closer to realizes his powers. I agree with you that he is likely becoming a member of the order associated with Taln, but unless his spren is wildly different from Syl, I don't think this voice is proof of it.

[happyman he/him]

I didn't think of this before, but I'm not really sure it can be a spren. Whomever is talking to Dalinar here clearly has knowledge of the world as it was in ages past. From everything we've seen, spren in their "natural" (sans bond), have very poor memories, unable to remember what happened 30 seconds ago, let alone thousands of years.

Of course, it's possible that the spren bonded with Dalinar long before this event, long before the aforementioned Chasmfiend hunt. I find this unlikely though, as no spren as been shown the communicate with Dalinar yet. Maybe different kind of spren go about the bond differently, but assuming they regain their intelligence and memories at the same rate, Dalinar's spren would have had to bond with him months and months ago to remember things from so long ago. Syl started bonding with Kalladin while he was still in Amaram's (sp?) army, then at least 8 months as a slave, then the entire length of the book and she still doesn't remember the Knights Radiant.

I was hoping it was a spren as well, as that would mean Dalinar is that much closer to realizes his powers. I agree with you that he is likely becoming a member of the order associated with Taln, but unless his spren is wildly different from Syl, I don't think this voice is proof of it.

Good points all.

I actually do think it is more likely to come from the connection with Honor that allows him see the visions, but it's hard to know for certain.

[Mad_Scientist he/him]

Yeah, I remember that conversation. However I attribute it to one of those things that people believe but are not true. It seems very... provincal? It seems too simple and easy, and given the way his mother was prone to quick wittedness and joking around I'm not even sure she's 100% serious herself when she says that. Kinda like when kids ask 'why' a million times in a row, eventually you just start making stuff up. I'd be willing to bet that spren questions are very like this in a time when the population at large knows almost nothing about spren.

I sort of took that exchange to be what she believed, but not anything proven. Nothing we've seen so far shows that spren are "cut up" versions of a big spren of the same type, nor has that idea been mentioned again. We are, of course, only one book in, so I don't know, I could be completely wrong.

If Kaladin's mother's conversation stood alone, I might think the same thing. Heck, my first time reading Way of Kings I did think that way. But when I re-read it looking for cosmere clues, I noticed some things that add credence to her words. One of those things is Syl's cryptic comment about spren being basically the same individual. Syl's words can be interpreted many ways, but they do fit nicely with Hesina's words. But the biggest reason I think Hesina is right is because of Soulcasting.

When Shallan accidentally Soulcast, she turned a goblet into blood. She communicated with the goblet, or more precisely, with the spren of the goblet. Now, I suppose it's possible that Shallan is mistaken, but I got the impression that she was right, and that all Soulcasting involves spren. That would mean that everything would have to have a spren, or at the very least everything that can be Soulcast would have to have a spren.

Now, going back to the goblet that Shallan turned into blood. She talked to the spren and caused it to change. But, what if she shattered the goblet first? Presumably, she'd be able to Soulcast the pieces. But that would mean that each piece of the goblet would have a spren now.

One goblet, one spren. A dozen goblet pieces, one spren inside each of them, a dozen spren. Where does the spren of the goblet go when it breaks? Where do the spren of the pieces come from?

The best explanation, to me at least, is that Hesina is exactly right. The spren of the goblet breaks into pieces itself, and little bits of it become new spren inside each of the goblet's pieces.

[Unworldly]

The best explanation, to me at least, is that Hesina is exactly right. The spren of the goblet breaks into pieces itself, and little bits of it become new spren inside each of the goblet's pieces.

Hi all, I've been lurking around the site for a long time and thought I'd finally weigh in on this discussion.

I think this effectively ties in with the giant water-based Spren that Axies views in his interlude chapter. I think it's basically the Spren of the ocean - which, as might be noticed, is a large, undivided entity. As for it's particular behaviour, I don't know if this theory helps - but it might help to explain the size (though the idea of it being large because people previously measured it to be large is a persuasive one as well), and definitely helps to explain the apparent uniqueness of this particular Spren - it simply has yet to be divided up in a noticeable way.

Does anyone remember any particular reference to a Water Spren, other than the Rain Spren (which are obviously tied to Rain, not Water precisely)? I don't recall seeing them - and given the prevalence of water on Roshar (both in the ocean surrounding the continent, the scenes with Shallan aboard the ship at the start, and any number of flood references) I think the absence of 'water' Spren is rather surprising.

I could be wrong - I'm certainly no expert on these things - but the idea came to mind as I was reading this thread and I decided to share - at least this way it can be shot down more effectively

[CrazyRioter she/her]

there are riverspren, but i think that's it.

And as Dalinar's "unite them" during the fight, I just interpreted it as him remembering the visions rather then something speaking at that moment.

Edited September 2, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I'm reminded of the book A Wizard of Earthsea, by Ursula LeGuin. In that book, magic is based on knowing the true name of something. One of the scenes in the book talks about how there is a name for "ocean", but then the seas in the ocean have their own names, and then the bays have their own names, etc etc. In that story the names are mutually exclusive (nothing could have more than one name), but I don't think that's the case here. The giant spren could be the spren for the "ocean", but there could also be waterspren, rainspren, riverspren, etc.

Also, are spren a cause or an effect? Do rotspren cause infections, or do infections attract rotspren? Syl fought off the deathspren, and it was implied that if they had reached Kaladin, he would have died. Does that mean that deathspren cause death? Also, Syl is confirmed as causing Kaladin's abilities. But flamespren are thought of as being attracted to flames, not causing them.

New theory: the giant water spren appears regularly. What water related phenomenon happens periodically? Tides. I think the giant spren might be a tidespren.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I personally believe it's a feedback loop, re spren and the thing they are named for, rotspren don't cause infections, but once they get attracted to an infection they can make it worse. Which attracts more rotspren, etc.

As for tidespren, tides on Earth actually happen twice a day, also as Roshar has three moons, their tides must be more complicated then Earth tides.

Edited September 3, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[lordofsoup]

Axies the Collector, also said that he had seen other Giant Spren, like that one. I think the people called it the guardian, but the whole thing did not make sense. It would rise every morning, and put its legs on those pillars, implying that it had always done it. But the pillars could not always have been there, so its confusing.

Also what is the effect of bumping into say a water spren? is it wet, or is it more like a ghost?

[Asha'man Logain]

One goblet, one spren. A dozen goblet pieces, one spren inside each of them, a dozen spren. Where does the spren of the goblet go when it breaks? Where do the spren of the pieces come from?

The best explanation, to me at least, is that Hesina is exactly right. The spren of the goblet breaks into pieces itself, and little bits of it become new spren inside each of the goblet's pieces.

See, here the thing though, one goblet spren, one goblet. Many pieces of broken metal, many metal spren? It's nature is now fundamentally different than it was. I doubt they'd be "broken goblet spren" but even so they are no longer a spren of a goblet, they are different. I think we have no where near enough information as of yet. For instance the many flame spren and wind spren etc, I doubt they originally were one big wind spren of the only wind in existence. There are many types of spren i think, probably more than have been hinted at.

[Asha'man Logain]

Axies the Collector, also said that he had seen other Giant Spren, like that one. I think the people called it the guardian, but the whole thing did not make sense. It would rise every morning, and put its legs on those pillars, implying that it had always done it. But the pillars could not always have been there, so its confusing.

Also what is the effect of bumping into say a water spren? is it wet, or is it more like a ghost?

I think probably someone once observed this spren doing that particular action, and wrote it down. Now that spren is stuck doing that same thing all the time. As Axies seems to be determined to go around doing now, measuring all the spren he can, and writing about them.

[Musicspren he/him]

I think probably someone once observed this spren doing that particular action, and wrote it down. Now that spren is stuck doing that same thing all the time. As Axies seems to be determined to go around doing now, measuring all the spren he can, and writing about them.

I like this idea, but it has some very significant implications. We see in the spren-measuring interlude that mentally noting the length of the spren is not enough, but writing it down is. This would go along with your idea. Now what if you saw a spren (of any sort) do something and noted down that it "acted honorably"? Would that mean that the spren, for the rest of its existence, would act honorably? Or what if you had any freely-moving spren and you wrote that it "moved upward," even though that wasn't it's normal state (any more than a certain length was the "normal" state of the spren in the interlude)? Is that spren going to have to keep moving upward indefinitely? I am inclined to agree with what Logain said (he's far more reliable than Mazrim Taim), but are we prepared to take the idea to its logical extreme?

[Asha'man Logain]

I like this idea, but it has some very significant implications. We see in the spren-measuring interlude that mentally noting the length of the spren is not enough, but writing it down is. This would go along with your idea. Now what if you saw a spren (of any sort) do something and noted down that it "acted honorably"? Would that mean that the spren, for the rest of its existence, would act honorably? Or what if you had any freely-moving spren and you wrote that it "moved upward," even though that wasn't it's normal state (any more than a certain length was the "normal" state of the spren in the interlude)? Is that spren going to have to keep moving upward indefinitely? I am inclined to agree with what Logain said (he's far more reliable than Mazrim Taim), but are we prepared to take the idea to its logical extreme?

Lol, thanks, Taim's a pain.

I say yes. IF the spren is observed only moving up, AND written that it only moves up, I think it will always only move up. That is not to say that it doesn't disappear at a certain altitude and reappear at a lower to continue it's upward journey.

I further think that the Glyphs are a very refined form of writing, that are capable of trapping spren in a specific physical form, such as Plate and perhaps Blades. I believe this theory fits well with what we know of the way Fabrials work.

[Argent he/him]

Except the original spren wasn't a "gobletspren", it was probably a "metalspren" (though I don't think we've seen those). So it breaking down into a multitude of smaller metalsprens would make sense. I don't think sprens are associated with the object they "live" in as much as the material the metal is made of. I would imagine a "chairspren" and a "tablespren" are actually just woodsprens, with perhaps slight variations in their characteristics (much like those flamesprens the scientists, whose names I forgot, were different in sizes).

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I suspect that each spren is personalized to whatever it inhabits, but they tend to be characterized by the broader elements that make up the object. So there is a table spren, but it's mostly indistinguishable from a chair spren, and both are called wood spren.