Kaladin's relationship

[WitSpren he/him]

@Aether

• Adolin seems to be very much physically attracted to Shallan, and she finds her to be of a refreshingly different temperament than the girls/women he is used to. But I doubt he has developed any deep seated feelings for her at this point. He seems to be more in awe of her at this point than anything else.

I'm not sure how accurate this is - he still looks at every skirt that passes.     He seems more attracted to the idea of having a permanent relationship, where he does not have to figure out what he is doing wrong, than specifically Shallan.

 

Then at the end - just before he kills Sadeas - he is specifically thinking about how he actually feels about being the "lesser partner" in the relationship.     I am sure that inner turmoil is part of why he went off the deep end there.     Extremely small part as Sadeas certainly gave him the majority of the provocation. 

 

 

 

 

There are some hints that Shallan is developing a physical attraction to Kaladin, as at one point she breaks off contemplating Adolin to think about how attractive Kaladin is in a strong, dark, brooding sort of way. I think it has more significance that she is thinking about this long after she first saw him, when his attractiveness doesn't even seem to have registered with her, as opposed to her attraction to Adolin which starts out really strong.

 

I agree, and there were other instances as well.      Also, it should be noted that Kaladin is clearly thinking thinking a lot about her.

 

 

 

That said, they all three are hardly at the point that they appear to be "locked" into a certain path.    The next book will probably add another person in the mix, but I doubt that it will be Jasna.     She - hopefully will be there but I do not consider her to be a part of this triangle. 

 

She will clearly go after Guz.   ;/

[Shaggai]

I interpreted that as her really just grasping at straws. At this point in the series, she is still in the process of discovering who she is/wants to be, and she seems to be really unsure of what she wants in a man. The whole love triangle isn't as much "oh, I can't decide who I love the most" as "I can't decide what I want in life", which is a huge difference. Kind of. Well, not really. An important nuance, though, which makes it more interesting. And even if it doesn't, it's still a better love story than Twilight.

Even World War I was a better love story than Twilight.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Shaggai

[Ketek]

On an unrelated tangent to the thread (but related to WW1), Franz Ferdinand died on the same day I happened to be born.

[Aether he/him]

Even World War I was a better love story than Twilight.

"France and Germany, after having been apart for so long, threw themselves at each-other with a furious passion not seen since Sparta fought Troy"

 

EDIT: @ketek, you seem pretty internet savvy for a 100-year-old. You're title as Shipfather just got really creepy, though.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Aether

[Ketek]

"France and Germany, after having been apart for so long, threw themselves at each-other with a furious passion not seen since Sparta fought Troy"

 

EDIT: @ketek, you seem pretty internet savvy for a 100-year-old. You're title as Shipfather just got really creepy, though.

 

I did say day, not year

 

Psst, look outside your window...

[FeatherWriter she/her]

The Internet would collapse from boredom if everybody agreed about stuff like this  :-)

 

Phew.  If anything I'd say Shallan pretty much ignored (or at least failed to significantly notice) Renarin, rather than treating him particularly badly.   Which was understandably disappointing to those who had hoped for more, but I think not really fair to hold a grudge against Shallan for!  She was pretty distracted with other goings on, and Renarin didn't exactly put himself out there or try to initiate anything.

This is the catch-22 with getting to know introverted people: no matter how great someone is once you break through their walls, the signs of that potential can be pretty subtle prior to putting in enough relationship building effort, and if you miss those signs, how to know that it's going to be worth your while to put in the effort in the first place?

I'm looking forward to the moment (I fear several books down the line) when Renarin's awesome finally becomes evident for all to see, but in the meantime I don't think we can blame everyone who fails to notice him.

 

Yeaaaaah... I'm guessing you kinda forgot how she treated him at the end of the book? Because it was kind of... abysmal. It's not that she didn't notice him. She definitely noticed him. And then proceded to be far meaner that I would have ever thought Shallan to be capable of. Like, distressing to me to the point where I couldn't think about her without suppressing the urge to growl.

 

“I . . .” He looked to her and wiped the water from his eyes, gauntlet hanging from his waist. “I should be with my father. I should be able to fight. Only I’m useless.”

Great. He was creepy and whiny. “Well, your father ordered you to help me, so deal with your issues."

 

“We’re dead . . .” Renarin muttered.

“Someone shut him up,” Shallan snapped. “Gag him if you have to.” She pointedly turned around, ignoring the raving prince.

 

(Bold mine) I mean, I realize, she was under quite a bit of stress... but still. She told people around her out loud, where he could hear to gag him. That's really not okay to say to anyone under any circumstances, especially not someone who is obviously in distress. I was so livid with her. She's better than that. And also let's not ignore the fact that he was completely right about all of the storms coming and what was going to happen and she ignored him until Pattern told her exactly the same thing.

 

Now, like I said, I've... started to forgive her and maybe not outright hate her for what she did but... it was pretty bad. A lot of that comes from friends helping me to come to give her some benefit of the doubt, but I still think she needs to apologize to him for the way she acted. I'm hoping she will at least. Of course, until then I will content myself with Kogiopsis' wonderfully kind version of a Shallan apology.

 

(Have I mentioned that I have wonderful friends who will write me cute things to help me when I'm upset? Because I have the best friends. Kogi doesn't even ship Shallarin -- and yeah, it's not actually a shippy fic -- but it's so sweet and cute and kind and it's more the Shallan that I loved and not this mean, short-tempered person that she was in the climax.)

 

Interesting.   Yeah...   I don't agree but can see where you are coming from.

In a book with a more explicit romance focus I would totally agree that the metastructure of this pairing is too obvious, but what makes this work for me is that it ISN'T the focus of Stormlight.  Neither Kaladin or Shallan is looking for a relationship at all  (well, Shallon kinda was with Adolin, but really she just wanted a way to save her brothers).   They spend relatively little screen time talking or thinking about each other (in the context of a VERY long book no less) and the main thrust of the story is about their personal, inward looking character development.  I guess what I would find cloying as a main entree works for me as seasoning on top of a story that's primarily about something else.

And leaving aside the meta aspect to look at specific interactions, what can I say, the chasm scene just felt right to me.  Real people acting like grownups, opening up to each other, starting to trust.  I found it touching and real.

Versus the Shallan/Adolin interactions, which I thought were also real and cute but more like a fun teenage crush than foundation of something that could actually last.

 

I think the others in this thread have argued that Shallan's reciprocating the crush quite a bit too, so I won't go into that, but yeah, the way I'm reading it now, is that they're both... falling for each other. (I'm going to try not to cringe as I type that.) I'm glad it felt good and right to you and that this is a relationship that you're interested in. I'm glad there's people out there who liked those scenes I guess... because I really didn't. If Chaos ever gets back to uploading Splintercast you'll be able to hear my thoughts on those passages as they happen, but.. I wasn't fond of them. 

 

*aggressively pokes the Lord Ruler to keep uploading Splintercasts*

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Yeaaaaah... I'm guessing you kinda forgot how she treated him at the end of the book?

 

 

I just finished my re-read so it's fresh in my memory, but I didn't have a problem with her behavior.  She was in a crisis situation, trying to do something about it, being distracted by someone she didn't know and who did not appear to be acting helpfully.  You have to admit Renarin was not communicating particularly effectively at this point!  Not to mention he had not build up much trust as someone to be relied on in this kind of crisis  (those of us paying attention realize how amazing what he did holding his Shardblade during that final duel was, but nobody in-world yet understands what that was about).

 

I've certainly snapped at people during a crisis before, and had to apologize later.   I do agree an apology from Shallan would be in order, but I think you're holding her to an unreasonably high standard here.

[Aether he/him]

I am rather frightened of contradicting Feather too much, lest she unleashes the Feathertips and -blades upon us, but I'll have to agree with shawnhargreaves here. Had I been in her shoes, I'd probably have told someone to gag him as well. Knowing who and what Renarin is, it's not hard to understand why he panicked as he did, but since most of the people present did not, he was only sowing chaos and panic by freaking out as he did. I doubt Shallan wasn't trying to be mean,  but I understand why she needed him to calm down. I agree that she does owe him an apology, but I honestly would not hold it against her if she didn't. Her reaction to Renarin was just as understandable as his actions were.

[maxal she/her]

I am rather frightened of contradicting Feather too much, lest she unleashes the Feathertips and -blades upon us, but I'll have to agree with shawnhargreaves here. Had I been in her shoes, I'd probably have told someone to gag him as well. Knowing who and what Renarin is, it's not hard to understand why he panicked as he did, but since most of the people present did not, he was only sowing chaos and panic by freaking out as he did. I doubt Shallan wasn't trying to be mean,  but I understand why she needed him to calm down. I agree that she does owe him an apology, but I honestly would not hold it against her if she didn't. Her reaction to Renarin was just as understandable as his actions were.

 

Agree. Renarin was not being very usefull. In fact, he was not usefull at all during WoR. To think I had hopes for him after his father gave him his plate. Now, I do hope this will change in the next book because Renarin took a leap for the worst in WoK. I rather liked him in WoR, but in WoK. Really. As for a Shallan/Renarin love story, no, no and no. They don't fit, at all.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

*whistles* Well then. Agree to disagree, I suppose. I agree that Shallan's actions are understandable, but I would still very much argue that they're not okay. Is she in a stressful situation? Yes. Are there reasons she made the mistakes that she did? Yes. But I would still argue that, understandable though they are, they're mistakes. She did something wrong because she was under pressure and it got to her and the situation is revealing some of her character flaws.

 

A friend of mine ended up talking about this with me, and I loved the way she said it: 

 

 

I think a lot of it is that her reaction to stress situations is to start shutting down in a lot of ways - rejecting/blocking the memories of her mother's death is one of the biggest ones but I realized ... Shallan-without-Jasnah gets progressively more focused. I don't think I'd say that she loses her academic curiosity entirely, but she subordinates it to other things, which means that her stress reaction is essentially to shut down a lot of her strengths to focus on survival-related stuff. She doesn't cope with problems; she compartmentalizes them, which I think is part of why she actually has a less complete arc than almost every other major character int he book - because arcs are about dealing with things and Shallan doesn't deal.

 

Part of the reason I was so shocked by Shallan was that I considered her empathy and kindness to be one of her strong points, looking at scenes like Jasnah killing the attackers in Kharbranth (Shallan is horrified, even though they're terrible people and even decides that Jasnah is in the wrong) and especially after seeing the way that she interacts with her brothers, putting their needs before her own and actively seeking to do things to make them happy. To see her like this, snapping orders, writing off someone who is obviously suffering and distressed simply because they're not useful? It's so very un-Shallan, and the fact that that's what she defaults to when she's stressed is... heartbreaking.

 

As for Renarin's usefulness, I'm... not going to go into all the reasons why I disagree here, mostly because this isn't the topic for it, and also I get very emotional about all of the wonderful things Renarin does and goes through in WoR and I'm in class, so crying would be pretty embarrassing and would probably get me some strange looks. 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Agree. Renarin was not being very usefull. In fact, he was not usefull at all during WoR.

 

Dude!  Now the wrath of Feather will be upon us for sure :-)

 

You're flat out wrong here, though.  Adolin would have died during WoR (and lost all the Kholin shards to boot) if not for Renarin.  Do you forget what he did during that last duel?

 

I just love the way Brandon wrote this.   Renarin jumps into the ring, so ok, we know he's brave and cares about his brother, but then he just sorta stands around not doing much while Adolin and later Kaladin are leaping around doing virtuosic duel-y stuff.  Everyone in world, plus at that point in the book most readers, think here we go again, Renarin is trying to fight but panics and ends up being useless...

 

BUT!

1. He keeps the attention of a fully armored shardbearer, without which Adolin would have been in serious trouble.
2. It's not entirely clear from the text what happened between them  (Renarin certainly wasn't fighting effectively with his blade)  but somehow his opponent ends up losing it and running out of the arena.
3. Later on we learn Renarin is a Truthwatcher (and was already bonded at this point, as he'd previously healed his eyesight) so I start thinking hmm, I bet something Truthwatcher-y (whatever that turns out to be) was going on in the arena here beyond what we could see.
4. And then we learn about the screaming of dead shardblades when held by bonded Radiants, and realize that Renarin was hearing this all the time...

I call that both useful and heroic.  I love how Brandon left it so understated (in line with the inward focused nature of Truthwatchers) that Adolin and Kaladin come away with all the praise.  And I love how he structured the book in such a way that first time readers know nothing about Truthwatchers or screaming shardblades during this scene.  It's only when you revisit it in the light of revelations from the end of the book that you can piece together more about what Renarin was experiencing here and realize how amazing he truly was.

[maxal she/her]

It is true. I have forgotten about the duel. It was indeed quite brave for Renarin to jump in and try to help his brother. Althought I do think Renarin knew he couldn't really get hurt. However, Adolin wanted to yield and was forced to continu to protect Renarin. Now we could argue as to if he would have really been able to quit knowing the judge was bought.

 

Personnally, I was convinced while reading WoR that Adolin would bite the dust and loose all of his family's shards. When the duel started, I thought for sure he was going to end up crippled or something. It would have serve for a dramatic edge, but hey Kal saving the day was awesome too, albeit a bit predictible. I was also convinced Adolin would put himself into danger, somehow, and that the only person to really have his back would turn out being Kal. These two were just meant to be best pals.

[Greywatch she/her]

I voted Other, since there are no male options here. Absolutely Kaladin with Adolin. Has the most chemistry, platonic, romantic, or otherwise.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Dude!  Now the wrath of Feather will be upon us for sure :-)

 

You're flat out wrong here, though.  Adolin would have died during WoR (and lost all the Kholin shards to boot) if not for Renarin.  Do you forget what he did during that last duel?

 

I just love the way Brandon wrote this.   Renarin jumps into the ring, so ok, we know he's brave and cares about his brother, but then he just sorta stands around not doing much while Adolin and later Kaladin are leaping around doing virtuosic duel-y stuff.  Everyone in world, plus at that point in the book most readers, think here we go again, Renarin is trying to fight but panics and ends up being useless...

 

BUT!

1. He keeps the attention of a fully armored shardbearer, without which Adolin would have been in serious trouble.
2. It's not entirely clear from the text what happened between them  (Renarin certainly wasn't fighting effectively with his blade)  but somehow his opponent ends up losing it and running out of the arena.
3. Later on we learn Renarin is a Truthwatcher (and was already bonded at this point, as he'd previously healed his eyesight) so I start thinking hmm, I bet something Truthwatcher-y (whatever that turns out to be) was going on in the arena here beyond what we could see.
4. And then we learn about the screaming of dead shardblades when held by bonded Radiants, and realize that Renarin was hearing this all the time...

I call that both useful and heroic.  I love how Brandon left it so understated (in line with the inward focused nature of Truthwatchers) that Adolin and Kaladin come away with all the praise.  And I love how he structured the book in such a way that first time readers know nothing about Truthwatchers or screaming shardblades during this scene.  It's only when you revisit it in the light of revelations from the end of the book that you can piece together more about what Renarin was experiencing here and realize how amazing he truly was.

 

*applause* Everything I wanted to say and more! When we found out the reveal at the end of the book that Renarin's had a screaming shardblade and has been thinking he was insane the whole book, I just broke down in sobs. He did so amazingly in this book and my heart just broke for everything he went through.

 

It is true. I have forgotten about the duel. It was indeed quite brave for Renarin to jump in and try to help his brother. Althought I do think Renarin knew he couldn't really get hurt. However, Adolin wanted to yield and was forced to continu to protect Renarin. Now we could argue as to if he would have really been able to quit knowing the judge was bought.

 

Personnally, I was convinced while reading WoR that Adolin would bite the dust and loose all of his family's shards. When the duel started, I thought for sure he was going to end up crippled or something. It would have serve for a dramatic edge, but hey Kal saving the day was awesome too, albeit a bit predictible. I was also convinced Adolin would put himself into danger, somehow, and that the only person to really have his back would turn out being Kal. These two were just meant to be best pals.

 

I'm just kinda... whaaaa? Renarin knew he couldn't really get hurt? What gives you that idea? Because the Renarin I saw was terrified of what he was doing and did it anyway. I mean, this is a rigged fight where Renarin has probably already seen that Adolin is unable to concede. It's a shardblade fight and Renarin went in without his plate. The only reason they didn't hurt him at first was that they were using him against Adolin. If Adolin hadn't cooperated, I have no doubt that they would have tried to maim Renarin in order to force him to stay in the fight.

 

(Bold, as usual, is mine)

 

“Now,” Relis said, stepping closer to Adolin, “Abrobadar there is fond of young Renarin, and doesn’t want to hurt him. So he’ll just keep the young man engaged, make a good fight of it. So long as you’re willing to keep up what you promised, and have a good duel with us. Surrender like a coward, or get the king to end the bout, and Abrobadar’s sword might just slip.”

 

And Renarin is well aware of how dangerous this is. I mean, he has a seizure in the middle of the fight, he's so overwhelmed and scared.

 

Dalinar ground his teeth together, then looked back at the arena. Renarin fought one of the men. The lad had barely any training in the sword. In fact, as Dalinar watched, Renarin’s shoulder began to twitch, pulling up toward his head violently. One of his fits.

 

He gets so overstimulated that he can hardly move afterwards or during that part in the middle when the Shardbearers go to focus on Adolin.

 

Renarin sat on the ground, head bowed, Shardblade stuck into the ground before him. Had he been defeated? Kaladin had heard no announcement

from the judge.

 

Not to mention that crushing little line where he definitely thinks he's about to die and thinks there's nothing he can do to stop it, which causes Kaladin to rush across the arena to save him. 

 

Relis turned and dashed across the sands toward Renarin.

 

Kaladin cursed, scrambling after him and tossing the helm aside. His body felt sluggish without the Stormlight to help.

“Renarin!” Kaladin yelled. “Yield!”

The boy looked up. Storms, he’d been crying. Was he hurt? He didn’t look it.

 

“Surrender!” Kaladin said, trying to run faster, summoning every drop of energy from muscles that felt drained, exhausted from being inflated by Stormlight.

 

The lad focused on Relis, who was bearing down on him, but said nothing. Instead, Renarin dismissed his Blade.

 

Relis skidded to a stop, raising his Blade high over his head toward the defenseless prince. Renarin closed his eyes, looking upward, as if exposing his throat.

 

(Be still my Kalarin-shipping heart. Also a noteworthy callback to the moment in practice when, while sparring with Kaladin, Zahel turns and rushes Renarin to throw Kaladin off. And Kaladin reveals that he's instinctually willing to die to save him. This ship sails itself, I swear to Harmony.)

 

ANYWAY, back on topic, heay, there's... definitely no way that you could really say that Renarin knew he was safe or not going to be hurt. I'd say any fight in which you resign yourself to die is one with an aspect of danger to it, wouldn't you?

[Aether he/him]

Agree. Renarin was not being very usefull. In fact, he was not usefull at all during WoR. To think I had hopes for him after his father gave him his plate. Now, I do hope this will change in the next book because Renarin took a leap for the worst in WoK. I rather liked him in WoR, but in WoK. Really. As for a Shallan/Renarin love story, no, no and no. They don't fit, at all.

Woah! I never claimed Renarin was useless, just that his actions in that very last scene was rather... unhelpful.

 

As for Renarin's usefulness, I'm... not going to go into all the reasons why I disagree here, mostly because this isn't the topic for it, and also I get very emotional about all of the wonderful things Renarin does and goes through in WoR and I'm in class, so crying would be pretty embarrassing and would probably get me some strange looks. 

I wouldn't really have noticed how cool Renarin really is (and how subtle his portrayal and character arc is) if it wasn't for your numerous and lengthy essays on it, Feather, so thank you for that! But as you point out yourself, we are going to have to disagree on this last point. No matter how wonderful and (somewhat surprisingly, given how subtle it is) strong Renarin really is, his breakdown during the arrival of the Everstorm really did make matters worse.

 

Also, I'm not sure I agree that Shallan has lost her empathy to some extent. She really went above and beyond for Gaz & Co., she went out of her way to ensure that the girl she impersonated at Amaram's mansion didn't suffer any consequences, and she was devastated by the death of her coach-man after one her Ghostbloods meetings, even though she acknowledged that there was little that could have been done differently. She might be becoming more and more like Jasnah in many ways, but it looks like she will be clinging on to her compassion for at least a little while longer.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I wouldn't really have noticed how cool Renarin really is (and how subtle his portrayal and character arc is) if it wasn't for your numerous and lengthy essays on it, Feather, so thank you for that! But as you point out yourself, we are going to have to disagree on this last point. No matter how wonderful and (somewhat surprisingly, given how subtle it is) strong Renarin really is, his breakdown during the arrival of the Everstorm really did make matters worse.

 

Also, I'm not sure I agree that Shallan has lost her empathy to some extent. She really went above and beyond for Gaz & Co., she went out of her way to ensure that the girl she impersonated at Amaram's mansion didn't suffer any consequences, and she was devastated by the death of her coach-man after one her Ghostbloods meetings, even though she acknowledged that there was little that could have been done differently. She might be becoming more and more like Jasnah in many ways, but it looks like she will be clinging on to her compassion for at least a little while longer.

 

If I have swayed even one person to realizing how amazing Renarin is than all of these essays have been worth it. Though lbr, I'd write them even if you all thought I was crazy. (Well, crazier than you already think I am. ) I live a Renarin Kholin appreciation LIFE.

 

I actually am in agreement with you on all of those points! It's not that Shallan isn't empathetic, because, like we both said, there's lots and lots of evidence that she's a very empathetic person who really cares about the people around her! All of those points are super vaild. Like I said, I've always considered Shallan's kindness and empathy to be one of her strongest characteristics.

 

Which... is what makes her interaction at the end so interesting (and heartbreaking). Because she is in a situation where she's so overwhelmed that even this excellent positive character trait of hers, something she does so instinctively with everyone else, has disappeared. It's very revealing about her character when we see what changes about her when she's under pressure. And, like we said above, she compartmentalizes and drops into absolute survival mode. Shallan stops acting like Shallan. And that says something about her.

 

Also, you can't really hold the breakdown against Renarin. I mean... he's not in control of himself when the writing-thing takes over. It's not like he's writing those things of his own volition. Honestly, the fact that he goes with her and tries to complete his mission, knowing that at any moment the storm might hit and he could lose control around other people who will see what he is, is incredible. He does try to get out of it, to get away and hide like he's done before, and he tries to warn her but she doesn't let him leave and she doesn't listen, so he sticks with it and tries to push through. 

 

Like dang. I just... Renarin.

[BeneathSilverStars she/her]

I vote for Renarin! I'm quite the multishipper and I'll probably be okay with whatever Brandon chooses, but Renarin/Kaladin is my favorite by far.

 

Part of it is Tien parallels. I think Renarin could really be the kind of gentle, hopeful influence that Kaladin needs, someone to cheer him up during the weepings. He's not quite the boundlessly optimistic, carefree Tien, of course, but he could definitely fill some of the same role. Unlike Kaladin's bantering and bickering with Adolin and Shallan, his relationship with Renarin would be a lot more... soft and earnest. I'm all for witty conversations and volatile feelings, but I think that what Kaladin (and Renarin) really needs is someone steady to fall back on. Of course any good relationship would end up that way, with deeper trust and understanding and security, with unguarded moments and broken-down walls, but I can see it more readily and permanently with Renarin than the others.

 

The scene where Renarin joined Bridge Four was amazing, and I think it's the strongest support that the relationship I see for them is possible. Kaladin knew exactly what was going on and had just the right things to say. He understood immediately that Renarin was doing something he found extremely difficult and uncomfortable. Kaladin wasn't patronizing or condescending, he was straight-forward and appreciative, and that was what Renarin needed. He's had too many people misunderstand, judge, and dismiss him. I can really see Kaladin helping him become more confident and accepting of himself, because Kaladin actually has an idea of what's going on. As a surgeon's son and a Knight Radiant, he's perfectly suited to be Renarin's support.

 

I think Kaladin and Renarin would really compliment each other, building each other up in just the right ways. As Renarin learns to be more confident in who he is, he can help Kaladin more, and as Kaladin learns to trust and share his burdens and responsibilities, he can help Renarin more. It's all a big circle of helping and healing and undoing society's dumb problems. They both know what it's like, to be looked down on and dismissed by the world, to feel like they're not and will never be good enough. Kaladin can say, it's okay, you're not broken, you are useful and important, and here's why. Renarin can say, it's okay, it's not your fault, you can make it, and you don't have to make it alone.

 

I don't have proof this will happen, we're only in the second book, no end-game theories here. Looking at their characters, though, I really think it could. I think if it did, it would be beautiful.

[leinton]

As usual, Kadolin is my ship.  There is more chemistry there than any other pairing (except possibly Shasnah but we've only seen one side of that).

 

Also guys, please stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters. This isn't even because I think Brandon will or won't do something, but when you ignore that and just say "Kaladin isn't gay" you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay. 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Also guys, please stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters.

 

Good point.

 

We haven't seen anything explicit about Rosharan attitudes to same sex relationships, but based on other characteristics of their society (most importantly the rigidly segregated gender roles) I can't imagine it would be accepted.  In which case people who are gay are not going to talk about it in public, and many who are bisexual will find it easier to ignore half of their sexuality and concentrate on the other part that society encourages.  So it's likely we've already seen bi characters without any externally visible signs,

Also, if I'm right that Roshar is not down with same sex anything, I think that argues for Kalarin over Kadolin.  Where better than Bridge 4 to find acceptance of something a little different?

[WitSpren he/him]

As usual, Kadolin is my ship.  There is more chemistry there than any other pairing (except possibly Shasnah but we've only seen one side of that).

 

Also guys, please stop ignoring the possibility of bisexuality in characters. This isn't even because I think Brandon will or won't do something, but when you ignore that and just say "Kaladin isn't gay" you also are ignoring those of us who are neither straight or gay. 

By the same token, there is no need to inject such things into the story that add nothing to it and that there is no textual evidence to support it.      Quite the contrary, we have a multitude of Kal POVs.     Most with assorted men, but also a few with females.      The only ones that showed any "interest" were with Shallan.     A few of those POVs, near the end of WoR, showed a noticable amount of positive interest on Kal part.

 

I doubt that he will persue the relationship right away, as he seems to be developing a friendship with Adolin & Shallan seems intent on trying to make that work as well.    Besides, they are all somewhat preoccupied now as well.

 

If someone comes up more Adolin compatable, I think that Adolin might have to break it off with Shallan.   (New experience as the females always broke it off before (I think)).     Or Adolin may be caught up with not only having to play the lesser partner to Shallan (we saw some of this before he killed Sadeas), and that was before his own brother and dad became KRs.    So he may have a significant amount of time "adjusting" to being the lesser figure to many people.    A new area for him, we will have to see what all that does to him.     If  Renerin "sees" the truth, Adolin might have to spend some time being "protected" by his little brother. 

 

BS has lots of room to make Adolin situation very interesting in the next book.

[maxal she/her]

*applause* Everything I wanted to say and more! When we found out the reveal at the end of the book that Renarin's had a screaming shardblade and has been thinking he was insane the whole book, I just broke down in sobs. He did so amazingly in this book and my heart just broke for everything he went through.

 

 

I'm just kinda... whaaaa? Renarin knew he couldn't really get hurt? What gives you that idea? Because the Renarin I saw was terrified of what he was doing and did it anyway. I mean, this is a rigged fight where Renarin has probably already seen that Adolin is unable to concede. It's a shardblade fight and Renarin went in without his plate. The only reason they didn't hurt him at first was that they were using him against Adolin. If Adolin hadn't cooperated, I have no doubt that they would have tried to maim Renarin in order to force him to stay in the fight.

 

(Bold, as usual, is mine)

 

 

At the time of the duel, Renarin already had lost his spectacles, meaning his vision was healed. This means he was surgebinding. He may not have been very good at it or confident with it, but the truth is he was surgebinding. He healed his eyes. He went in the arena with the probable knowledge he could heal himself up if he got hit. Now, of course he was scared: Renarin has never been in a fight before, he has little skill with a sword, his brother is about to be hack down alive and his only means of defense is screaming at him. That enought is sufficient to be scared. However, I believe he did know he could heal himself up at that point. His act of bravoure was not as foolhardy as it seemed at the time.

[Greywatch she/her]

There is no evidence he knew he could heal himself like that. He was expecting to die at that point in the fight. That's pretty clear.

[maxal she/her]

There is no evidence he knew he could heal himself like that. He was expecting to die at that point in the fight. That's pretty clear.

 

Well, he already healed himself up once. He must have known.

[WitSpren he/him]

At the time of the duel, Renarin already had lost his spectacles, meaning his vision was healed. This means he was surgebinding. He may not have been very good at it or confident with it, but the truth is he was surgebinding. He healed his eyes. He went in the arena with the probable knowledge he could heal himself up if he got hit. Now, of course he was scared: Renarin has never been in a fight before, he has little skill with a sword, his brother is about to be hack down alive and his only means of defense is screaming at him. That enought is sufficient to be scared. However, I believe he did know he could heal himself up at that point. His act of bravoure was not as foolhardy as it seemed at the time.

I disagree.    Kal, Shallan and Delinar all did significant "healing" before they figured out what was going on.

 

I really doubt that Renarin was at the point that he was conciously healing  or  could conciously "interpret" his visions.     At the dual point he clearly was not focusing on the benefits, but mostly on his " Voidbringer Curse".     Even from the Delinar POV at the very end, he just then accepts it.     It might be a day or so before that, but not much earlier. 

[Greywatch she/her]

There is no reason he would have known. A one-time healing, for all Renarin knows, might be it; he's never had the opportunity to heal from something else in a battle situation, and we know even with the benefit of being on the outside looking in that Stormlight healing isn't infallible anyway. I don't think anyone could say that Renarin knew beyond the shadow of a doubt he would walk away. Having his eyesight healed >>> "I can walk away from any injury in a fight" is a /bit/ of a stretch. In the text, Renarin expects to die. I'm not sure how else to phrase this.