[Theory] Taravangian's real way of saving mankind

[Aleksiel]

Last I checked she only gives you what she thinks you deserve to get.

 

 

Didn't Av say that she gives what she thinks the supplicant deserves, not necessarily what they ask for?

 

 

While that's what Av said, the whole quote goes like this:

 

 

“Doesn’t work that way,” Av said. “It’s not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.”

 

So the suggestion T needs to find a way to balance/make work together his high compassion and high intelligence would be tricking him/ twisting his words. If you believe the latter part of the quote, you should also consider the former credible as well.

 

 

He could, for example, make a heart-guided revision to the Diagram in his compassionate, empathetic state that fixes a flaw his intellect couldn't see. Rules established during his high intellect states have, however, stopped him from making any important decisions while stupid.

 

And how would he did that since he's a drooling moron when he's very compassionate? On a day when his intelligence is high enough to consider the Diagram, he's neither intelligent enough to fix it, not (probably) compassionate enough to want to fix it.

 

 

From this angle, the split doesn't really prevent the boon from working, only makes it take longer. The prohibitions that keep him from doing things while compassionate are his own storming fault, not Nightwatcher's. They could even work in his favor, preventing his compassionate self from burning the Diagram in horror until it was too far underway to stop, allowing human feeling to enter the picture only after it becomes useful.

 

If the whole intelligence/compassion system work as a boon, what is the curse and how come he never noticed he has a different curse going on?

 

 

 

Honestly, I like some of the other ideas more than my own, particularly Pathfinder's. I just think that continuing to debate the idea is a good way to find its strengths and weaknesses--information that can be used to form more accurate theories later.

 

I don't agree with that theory, but it's an interesting one. It's always fun to discuss how things might work out 

[kaellok he/him]

I'm not a fan of this theory, because it undermines the boon. If that was the case and he couldn't make both sides of him work together, then he would not have the capacity to save the world. But the Nightwatcher always gives you what you ask for, so there shouldn't be any twist like the one you suggest.

I thought she always gave you what she felt you needed, with little or no regard to what you asked for. There's that whole bit about how it doesn't matter how carefully you phrase your request, etc.

[Moogle]

I feel it's necessary at this point to point out that on Mr. T's smartest days he's not allowed to write laws or make major decisions until his dumber self has been allowed to approve them, BUT THIS NEVER HAPPENED WITH THE DIAGRAM.

 

I don't see this as a problem. The issue is that while he's above-average intelligence but not Diagram-level smart is that he doesn't understand people. He thought people would listen to his arguments and commit suicide for the good of the city, for example. Because of this, any laws or anything else he does while intelligent are going to turn out awful.

 

It's clear that the Diagram was capable of understanding people, however. It correctly predicted the path of numerous wars, for example. At some point, it seems that his intelligence becomes capable of substituting for his natural empathy (his day of the Diagram), allowing him to predict and understand people, but there's a stage where it is not (his regular above-average intelligence days).

[natc]

Basically after a certain threshold of genius is reached you basically have enough of a grasp on psychology that you can predict people as if they were chess pieces.

It's a bit scary.

[Dankworth he/him]

Alright, Aleksiel, I think that theory is pretty much done. I might be able to split hairs for a while if I had really been set on the idea, but the hair splitting wouldn't get anywhere and would be a huge waste of time.

[dyring]

Anyone considered that Odium may not want to destroy mankind? Hes not Ruin.

 

He might be quite happy with what Mr T did in Jah Keved for example. Perhaps Mr T in his smart state is after saving mankind by transforming Roshar into a world wich Odium will like, filled with hate and suffering, thus it will be saved(thou a horrid place to live for most)

Edited May 6, 2015 by dyring

[Moogle]

Anyone considered that Odium may not want to destroy mankind? Hes not Ruin.

 

He might be quite happy with what Mr T did in Jah Keved for example. Perhaps Mr T in his smart state is after saving mankind by transforming Roshar into a world wich Odium will like, filled with hate and suffering, thus it will be saved(thou a horrid place to live for most)

 

I don't think that is Odium's motive. Odium doesn't seem to care about leaving worlds filled with hate, he just wants dead Shards. I think in the case of Roshar, though, that he's going to destroy everything in order to regain whatever power he Invested in the planet. WoB is that a Shard can only leave its planet if they are willing to leave behind a chunk of their power.

 

Taravangian's actions also don't speak to me as encouraging hate in basically any form. There's maybe a bit of self-loathing, though? But that isn't transforming the world into a hate machine.

[Iarwainiel I she/her]

Surprised not to see any references to Jezrien in this thread.

(Not saying I think Mr. T is him, but the "drooling" part is cause for pondering... )

Edited May 7, 2015 by old aggie

[CabbageHead he/him]

Personally, I thought that the capacity he needed was both his extreme intellect and extreme compassion, the accompanying curse being that they never happen at the same time. That would  be a really vicious curse, much worse than seeing upside down--possibly worse than not remembering your dead wife, although that is still likely to turn out to be more important than it seems.

 

Upvote for you sir, I was thinking exactly the same thing. If Mr. T does somehow manage to save the world, he will do it as the completely average man, combining plans made in his different mind states into a greater whole.

[dvoraen]

I don't think that is Odium's motive. Odium doesn't seem to care about leaving worlds filled with hate, he just wants dead Shards. I think in the case of Roshar, though, that he's going to destroy everything in order to regain whatever power he Invested in the planet. WoB is that a Shard can only leave its planet if they are willing to leave behind a chunk of their power.

 

Taravangian's actions also don't speak to me as encouraging hate in basically any form. There's maybe a bit of self-loathing, though? But that isn't transforming the world into a hate machine.

What is hatred, then, if not a lack of compassion for what is hated?  (Yes, I deliberately worded it this way.  I'm insinuating that somebody was heavily nudged on the 'Day of the Diagram' because he was completely vulnerable due to his complete absence of compassion and empathy for... anything.  The Diagram has way too much privileged information, for starters, in addition to how the tone of its instructions varies, as if multiple sapient entities had a hand in it.)

Edited May 17, 2015 by dvoraen

[Moogle]

What is hatred, then, if not a lack of compassion for what is hated? 

 

There is a great deal of difference between indifference and hatred. Some of the effects may look the same - an alien race indifferent to us who wants to turn the universe into paperclips would kill us as readily as an alien race who just wanted to destroy us - but they are not the same thing. A gardener cultivating an orchard and removing weeds does not necessarily lust to purge all weeds from the earth.

 

I am not trying to argue against the idea that Taravangian was influenced by outside entities (though I don't think it's too likely, there's not enough evidence to make an iron-clad argument), only that the Diagram does not seem to me to be promoting hatred. Odium's hand may well be at work, but if so the only thing really seeming odious to me is the self-loathing Taravangian feels. Little about the Diagram seems to overtly encourage hatred, at least in my view.

[natc]

That's just apathy. You couldn't give a storming damnation about the people.

It's different from hate, where you actively have an urge to make their lives miserable.

[Fatel28]

I'm not a fan of this theory, because it undermines the boon. If that was the case and he couldn't make both sides of him work together, then he would not have the capacity to save the world. But the Nightwatcher always gives you what you ask for, so there shouldn't be any twist like the one you suggest.

But if his boon was intelligence, and his curse being how it fluctuates by the day, wouldn't that also be a twist? If he can ask for extreme intelligence and also get extreme stupidity, can he not ask for intelligence and compassion, but the curse being never at the same time? I feel like this is extremely possible. The Nightwatcher would be giving him exactly what he asked for, just using the boon as a basis for the curse, as the Nightwatcher would have with fluctuating intelligence.. Right?

[AerionBFII he/him]

I always thought the Nightwatcher gave Mr.T the key to save the world, the high intelligence and compassion as his boon but the curse is the inability to use it.

 

Mr.T has incredible flaws and the things he does are evil but what if he did save Roshar?? Would he be evil then or more a pragmatist?

[kaellok he/him]

I always thought the Nightwatcher gave Mr.T the key to save the world, the high intelligence and compassion as his boon but the curse is the inability to use it.

 

Mr.T has incredible flaws and the things he does are evil but what if he did save Roshar?? Would he be evil then or more a pragmatist?

A good deed done in the name or pursuit of evil is still a good deed. Similarly, an evil deed done in the name or pursuit of good is still an evil deed. Deliberately starting a bloody civil war and causing global destabilization of all governments is evil... and even if it saves the world, it doesn't change that the perpetrator of such massive atrocities is also evil.

(It should be noted that i feel it is possible for both action and inaction to be evil. I believe taking a human life is always evil, but to NOT do so is, at times, more evil. Ie, killing a serial killer before they can kill again is less evil than letting them go. So, killing millions may be less evil than allowing the world to end and having everyone die, but you are still evil for doing it.)

[ProfChesterTQ]

The nightwatcher gives what you ASK for; just not always in the manner YOU expect it to be.

Taravangian asked for "the capacity to save the world"... by this Taravangian ASSUMED that would come in the form of Intelligence and/or Strength... The reality is that as the old saying goes... one often can find themselves their own worst enemy, and sometimes the best course of action is to do NOTHING...

So you see the drooling idiot was both what Taravangian DESERVED and it was the ONLY capacity in which HE would be able to contribute in saving the world.

The Intelligence is the TOTAL CURSE!

As Socrates discovered... it is the wisest of men that admits that he knows NOTHING. If Travangian wanted to save the world; he should have stayed locked in his room drooling to his feebleminded contentment. With compassion and humility the cure, and arrogance the poison.

Edited April 18, 2017 by ProfChesterTQ

[Farnsworth]

I think it's something completely different. As Av said, the Nightwatcher just gives you what she wants to give you. She doesn't even give you a boon if she doesn't want to! So whatever Mr. T has is what Cultivation wanted him to have. Every curse or boon the Nightwatcher has given is simply a way of furthering the goals of Cultivation. Taravangian has simply been used more than others. 

[Argent he/him]

17 hours ago, ProfChesterTQ said:

The nightwatcher gives what you ASK for; just not always in the manner YOU expect it to be.

How do you know this? The one thing we know for certain is that she gives you a curse and a boon. The only discussion on how she makes her decision comes from Baxil's interlude in The Way of Kings, and the takeaway from that chapter is that you can ask for whatever you want, but she'll give you whatever she feels you deserve.

[Left he/him]

55 minutes ago, Argent said:

How do you know this? The one thing we know for certain is that she gives you a curse and a boon. The only discussion on how she makes her decision comes from Baxil's interlude in The Way of Kings, and the takeaway from that chapter is that you can ask for whatever you want, but she'll give you whatever she feels you deserve.

Actually, Dalinar mentions the NightWatcher as well, but what he says only seems to confirm what Baxil says. 

[Argent he/him]

3 hours ago, Left said:

Actually, Dalinar mentions the NightWatcher as well, but what he says only seems to confirm what Baxil says. 

Several people mention her, but only Baxil and his... cousin? accomplice? colleague? friend? discuss the mechanics behind the boon and the curse. Dalinar says he knows what his boon and curse are, but doesn't discuss whether he got what he asked for. It is strongly suggested that Lift asked to never change (or something similar), and nothing we've seen from her points to her getting this wish (as either boon or curse). 

This being said, I seem to be the only person who insists that we don't know how the Nightwatcher works, so I'd be interested in finding out what it is that I've been missing all this time.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

6 minutes ago, Argent said:

This being said, I seem to be the only person who insists that we don't know how the Nightwatcher works, so I'd be interested in finding out what it is that I've been missing all this time.

I think you have cleverly avoided the "Boon/Bane Game" thread and as such you don't have preconceptions built subconsciously around things in there.

[Argent he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

I think you have cleverly avoided the "Boon/Bane Game" thread and as such you don't have preconceptions built subconsciously around things in there.

I went there once, I think, and got upset because people (in my eyes) were misinterpreting how the Nightwatcher works

[Rasha]

The thread is more of a cool casual game between sharders than an actual reconstruction of how the Nightwatcher works. A kind of challenge to invent the most witty curses that correspond to the boon asked, and a challenge to ask a boon that will not recieve a (too) bad curse.

[Spoolofwhool]

11 minutes ago, Rasha said:

The thread is more of a cool casual game between sharders than an actual reconstruction of how the Nightwatcher works. A kind of challenge to invent the most witty curses that correspond to the boon asked, and a challenge to ask a boon that will not recieve a (too) bad curse.

Yes, but there still exists the premise that people think they know how the boon/bane system works. It may not be explicit, but chances are that most people posting have an opinion on how it works.

 

[dyring]

Also, that Baxil explanation. Thats inworld.

Inworld characters arent always right. Even if its Pov, they might be wrong.  

 

But also yeah, Mr T asked for the capacity to save the world. We dont know if he got it.

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by dyring