The Chat Thread

[+Ark1002]

I really believe we should keep Warhammer, it's been a long time part of the Alleyverse, and has had large impacts, and unlike Halo, isn't OP.

Other than Warhammer and Skyward, yes, no on Sci-fi.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Ookla the Ookla

[whattheHoid she/her]

For the record I am totally ok with Lovecraftian elements, it meshes well with Brandon's.

[Gancho Libre he/him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ookla said:

I really believe we should keep Warhammer, it's been a long time part of the Alleyverse, and has had large impacts, and unlike Halo, isn't OP.

Other than Warhammer and Skyward, yes, no on Sci-fi.

This being for Era 3?

What about the other Earths, like Alcatraz or Reckoners technology?

[+Ark1002]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Libre said:

This being for Era 3?

What about the other Earths, like Alcatraz or Reckoners technology?

We've already used those lots, we are keeping those.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Ookla said:

I really believe we should keep Warhammer, it's been a long time part of the Alleyverse, and has had large impacts, and unlike Halo, isn't OP.

 

Warhammer is the most powerful Sci-Fi universe in existence, to my knowledge. Halo follows actual physics. They are even keeled. If we remove one, we have to remove the other, because if we don't it is a bias.

I don't actually see any real space operas. or the other stuff. I promise to limit the Precursors involvement, and by the nature of the guild, if someone doesn't want them involved to a thread, they will stay out of it. Sci-Fi adds enjoyment to some people, and doesn't majorly subtract from the enjoyment of others. It's removal just subtracts from enjoyment, and again if people want us to stay out of events, we will stay out of events. I believe that I speak for the Black Crusade when I say that we will not force ourselves into things. If we can use our technology and exist where people want us to, and sell it, among all of the things that we have permission to do, we will stay out of everything else. It can still go with all of the other stuff, but the universe would still include these things. 

Perhaps the Sci-Fi things could go to a different planet? They would still be able to be involved on the events of the Alleyplanet, and would still exist, and could still sell our stuff. Halo and Warhammer combined could teraform a planet to fit our needs, and Slip space travel, means that it can be light years away. I would just stop arguing right now, if we can just go to our own planet and be our own thing, doing what we want and having fun in our way, and only getting involved if invited. Is this accepted? Because if it is I can make a thread for it right now.

[Gancho Libre he/him]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Ookla said:

We've already used those lots, we are keeping those.

*Sighes in releif*

Whew, that was close!

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

So, @Ookla the Lurker, @AdOokla, @Ookla the Paragon, and whatever the other moderators name is right now, is the planet allowed?

I put a poll for what should happen to my new guild in our thread, if anyone wants to vote in it. If I don't get any new votes for a while, I'll just take it out.

 

[Voidus]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Clueless said:

But there are also the characters from the thieve's guild around, most of them with no investiture at all.

I would prefer to have none, to maybe a small (1 year) time jump to make the start less awkward. And we simply need to trust each other to keep the op characters out of the rp/ have them die at the end of the era. Which characters count as op - that we have to discuss among ourselves.

Characters who fit within the guidelines would be ok obviously, and I do think that another timeskip isn't necessary, but if we come up with some rules that characters don't fit within, then we shouldn't keep those characters.
 

5 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

Warhammer is the most powerful Sci-Fi universe in existence, to my knowledge. Halo follows actual physics. They are even keeled. If we remove one, we have to remove the other, because if we don't it is a bias.

It would be bias, but the bias would be founded upon something, in this case the fact that warhammer has already been integrated for a while and also is pretty rare that it actually comes up.

 

5 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

I don't actually see any real space operas. or the other stuff

Because up until now we've only had one source of sci-fi so they had to engage with other guilds on the ground. If we open up a bunch of sci-fi guilds then it's pretty inevitable that things will start moving to space.

5 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

I promise to limit the Precursors involvement, and by the nature of the guild, if someone doesn't want them involved to a thread, they will stay out of it. Sci-Fi adds enjoyment to some people, and doesn't majorly subtract from the enjoyment of others. It's removal just subtracts from enjoyment, and again if people want us to stay out of events, we will stay out of events. I believe that I speak for the Black Crusade when I say that we will not force ourselves into things.

Many people have said it would subtract from their enjoyment, that's what this entire discussion is about. And part of the objection is around the worldbuilding itself and effect on story theme so simply staying out of the way isn't necessarily a solution.
And as I mentioned in the PM, if the goal is to stay out of the way of the rest of the Alleyverse and limit involvement then at that point it's essentially a separate RP.
 

5 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

If we can use our technology and exist where people want us to, and sell it, among all of the things that we have permission to do, we will stay out of everything else. It can still go with all of the other stuff, but the universe would still include these things. 

Selling technology is going to cause an influence on other threads, characters and stories.

5 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

Perhaps the Sci-Fi things could go to a different planet? They would still be able to be involved on the events of the Alleyplanet, and would still exist, and could still sell our stuff. Halo and Warhammer combined could teraform a planet to fit our needs, and Slip space travel, means that it can be light years away. I would just stop arguing right now, if we can just go to our own planet and be our own thing, doing what we want and having fun in our way, and only getting involved if invited. Is this accepted? Because if it is I can make a thread for it right now.

Either it's still going to affect the rest of the Alleyverse in at least some ways (In which case previous objections still stand) or it's not involved at all in which case it may as well be a separate RP.

[+Ark1002]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

7 hours ago, Darth Ookla said:

 

It would be bias, but the bias would be founded upon something, in this case the fact that warhammer has already been integrated for a while and also is pretty rare that it actually comes up.

 

Yes, and I have explained to him, the only minorly OP use we've had is the thermonuking of Alleycity, and that was agreed on by the entire Alleyverse. Other then that it's jsut Space Marines, and a force we can all agree is a force of evil, the Chaos Marines, adding a nice conflict.

So, Warhammer is great, and a long time part of the Alleyverse, I don't think we need other sci-fi.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I really want only a few things things from this: Covenant and UNSC weapons, banshees, scorpions, warthogs, mantises, ghosts, 1 scarab, seraphs, the species, the flood, and the spartan 2 process, as well as the armor. I will stay out of space, and the weapons aren't even that more useful. I will make it that the Seraphs and the banshees can't go into space, and I'll up the price of the Mjolnir armor, so peusudo shardplate isn't commonly acquirable.

The scarab is a last ditch effort to make them notable, and actually Scarabs aren't that powerful. It would be remarkably easy for a couple GB, or Sentinels to get aboard and get an explosive device in the core.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Darth Ookla

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

No energy or plasma rifles. Anything that defies the laws of physics is not fair; while everybody else is in melee, you could snipe them with overpowered, ridiculous weapons. It’s annoying in duels.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

The Sentinels. Also, energy, and magnetically contained plasma, are physically possible. I just need to say something: The only covenant weapon that is actually more powerful than it's human equivalent, is the energy sword, which has the counterpart of a sword. Those need to have a replaceable power cell, because they can only hit something 10 times, and EMPs knock out all the ones not powered of investiture. Thel is has the only exception to that rule, and he is pretty much a knights radiant, if all of the left over investiture was put into a thug. Essentially, if someone has a carbine and says that it shoots straight through your armor, 1. It doesn't, 2. Bring me in to set them straight. Sniper rifles are the only exception to the power limit, and how are they going to whip out a beam rifle, and get a accurate hit on a moving target, in the middle of a duel?

Also something else I just thought of: can I have smaller unsc ships, but have them be modified to be submarines? They would be for shipping, and would fall in nicely with the Jackal pirates I have planned.

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

Also, this is a Sanderson website. I don’t want to have to do more than is necessary to understand the principles. Even Warhammer 40K confuses me greatly.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Check your inbox.

I do see what you mean. I remember being annoyed at how I didn't get how Arks armor worked in our duel. How about this: before anytime they come in, they have to post the things the armor can do, and not exceed those limits, and if there's a dispute, just call me in.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Darth Ookla

[Voidus]

Regardless of how the information is disseminated, introducing something that isn't widely known is going to cause issues and potentially confuse or slow down the RP. Then there's also the questions that have no clear answer.
Could a Needler penetrate Shardplate?
An Energy sword?
What would happen if a Shardblade tried to block an energy sword?
etc.

Now at some point someone's going to have to make a ruling on that, which is going to mean a relatively large amount of deliberation, discussion and research.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

Could a Needler penetrate Shardplate?

There is no way in Damnation that a needler could do more than scratch shardplate.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

An Energy sword?

I don't know what you mean by this. 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Lurker said:

What would happen if a Shardblade tried to block an energy sword?

It would. It might get scratched and would probably pop a gem, if it hard enough, but the plate would be fine.

[Voidus]

Just now, Darth Ookla said:

There is no way in Damnation that a needler could do more than scratch shardplate.

Crossbows can break Shardplate if used enough, if a crossbow can then a Needler probably can. And this is kind of case in point, they don't exist in the same universe so it's impossible to prove one way or the other and going to be difficult to convince someone.

1 minute ago, Darth Ookla said:

I don't know what you mean by this. 

Could an energy sword break Shardplate was the question.

2 minutes ago, Darth Ookla said:

It would. It might get scratched and would probably pop a gem, if it hard enough, but the plate would be fine.

This one in particular is borderline impossible to judge, and I think you may have misread because this was about a Shardblade not a Shardplate
 

But here's the other issue, you're issuing absolute statements on these which is impossible to state because different universes. The answer is fundamentally unknowable, the best we can do is guess. And not everyone's guess is going to align.

Also just a note but these weren't actual questions. I know how I would rule each of them, but they were meant to illustrate the type of thing that is going to come up. The fact that the way I would rule it is different from how you are is essentially my point.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

What I always do is find the cross universe equivalent. So, a needler is a equivalent of a high powered crossbow, and the best equivalent I can find for an energy sword is Walkers katana, which is 60% the strength of a shardblade. I can post an entire guide about this in the Precursors thread, and I can be the definitive judge. If it is me arguing about someone else, that is what mods are for. It is not hard to judge how Halo weapons actually work, as they do follow physics, unlike other sci-fi, so then it's only, how powerful are they compared to the fantasy stuff, which this entire fansite theories about their strength.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Darth Ookla

[Voidus]

That's a personal approach. It's not one I have objections to but it assumes that everyone will make the same assumption. And yes, we could do a listing somewhere but whether people have to do research on a thread in the Alleyverse or whether they have to go to a halo wikia, the point is still that people are unfamiliar with it. It essentially forces something that's not of interest to everyone onto the RP, meaning they have to know about it.

At this point I don't think I have anything further to add to the conversation and I don't want to sound like I'm the arbitrator of whether or not this happens so I'll leave it to the poll. 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Just to recap the arguments for voters:

Pro Sci-Fi

It adds enjoyment to the shard for some and can be controlled. The Precursors will stay out of space as according to the following suggestion: Covenant and UNSC weapons, banshees, scorpions, warthogs, mantises, ghosts, 1 scarab, seraphs, the species, the flood, and the spartan 2 process, as well as the armor. I will stay out of space, and the weapons aren't even that more useful. I will make it that the Seraphs and the banshees can't go into space, and I'll up the price of the Mjolnir armor, so peusudo shardplate isn't commonly acquirable.

The only covenant weapon that is actually more powerful than it's human equivalent, is the energy sword, which has the counterpart of a sword. Those need to have a replaceable power cell, because they can only hit something 10 times, and EMPs knock out all the ones not powered of investiture. Thel is has the only exception to that rule, and he is pretty much a knights radiant, if all of the left over investiture was put into a thug. Essentially, if someone has a carbine and says that it shoots straight through your armor, 1. It doesn't, 2. Bring me in to set them straight. Sniper rifles are the only exception to the power limit, and how are they going to whip out a beam rifle, and get a accurate hit on a moving target, in the middle of a duel?

What the Precorsor would actually have: Covenant and UNSC weapons, banshees, scorpions, warthogs, mantises, ghosts, 1 scarab, seraphs, the species, the flood, and the spartan 2 process, as well as the armor, and small UNSC ships that are made to function as submarines.

Anti Sci-Fi(All that aren't qoutes come from @Ookla the Lurker

Regardless of how the information is disseminated, introducing something that isn't widely known is going to cause issues and potentially confuse or slow down the RP. Then there's also the questions that have no clear answer.
Could a Needler penetrate Shardplate?
An Energy sword?
What would happen if a Shardblade tried to block an energy sword?
etc.

I'm not opposed to technology (Technology is SCIENCE after all). But when space ships, fleets and armadas get involved it makes things a bit awkward.
It's a whole different scale of story, and I think it's definitely likely to create three things that multiple people have mentioned they want less of:
Power creep, armies and PvP.

On 11/29/2018 at 8:05 PM, Ookla the Paragon said:

It's more a question of non-Sanderson scifi, and how the general power level tends to be higher than that of Sanderson tech and characters. 

To sum up what I see as the main arguments from the con side:

-Sci fi leads to space opera which is of an entirely different scale to what the Alleyverse focuses on, this can minimize and draw attention from other plots.
-Sci fi leads to armies, which people have expressed concerns about
- Sci fi requires vast resources and power, which people have expressed concerns about.
- Sci fi technology tends to be on a power level that's higher than what people want in the Alleyverse.
- Thematically it doesn't match most of Brandons works which make up the base of the Alleyverse.

And some from me personally:
- Sci fi as a genre usually tells different stories, this would create radically different stories within the RP and might derail or spoil stories that are started with a more traditional fantasy element in mind.
- Technology can be acquired by anyone so adding technology into the Alleyverse means potential issues with making magic based characters even more powerful.
- It seems likely that this would lead to an arms race, power creep, scope creep and increased PvP (Almost all sci fi elements that people have introduced have been combat based in nature)

[+Sorana she/her]

Thanks for the summary.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

How did the yes portion of the cookies question get 109 votes?

[Snipexe he/him]

the powers of Cookies are great and unknowable

[Voidus]

Because only a crazy person would vote for hating cookies.
*Glares intently at the 7 crazy people*

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

*wonders why mod misspelled intently*