Guild Reform

[Voidus]

Going back to the topic of people being in multiple guilds, one issue that I think it causes is that everyone becomes involved in every plot. Having too many characters in a scene makes it incredibly confusing and fast paced and some players who aren't on as frequently have little to no time to actually react to something which causes the same issue that godmodding does, someone is unable to react in a way appropriate to their character in a given circumstance.
If people are in multiple guilds then there's a higher chance that they'll want their character to be involved with anything to do with those guilds, which leads to the above issues and the problem of teleporting all around the Alleyverse 300 times a day and calling into question just who is selling Tia cards that teleport right into Solace's bedchamber. (Not meant to be a real example, I'm not sure if anyone's actually used a Tia card to get into Solace's bedchamber).

Which now that I think about it is another thing I'd like to have addressed: over usage of teleportation. It's probably the most ubiquitous power in the Alleyverse and it can really cause a lot of problems. Now usage of the CR to worldhop or having some Aonic teleportation circles between cities is understandable, but a majority of characters having the ability to personally teleport at will becomes a bit of a problem.
It's a handy mechanic for moving scenes rapidly but that also means that we're deprived from the RP opportunities inherent in travel scenes. Some of the most amusing scenes in the Reckoners RP just happened because people were in transit and came across something they didn't expect. It's a great way to get characters to meet each other or stumble upon someone else's plot and a great hurdle for characters to overcome.

[+Sorana she/her]

8 hours ago, Ookla the [REDACTED] said:

So what you are saying is that if your character dies you don't need to work your way all they way back up, but you can't lead the guild until you have a character in that spot again?

I could get behind this so long as there is a reasonable waiting period from when your character dies till you can create a new one to insert it in. I said that you should have to work your way back up as a waiting period, but if this period is long enough I think that it would accomplish the same thing.

Yes, that's what I meant. Because it still leads to destabilization, and the need for someone else to step in, but ooc the player doesn't loose his/ her position.

And a righthand may give you your power back? I only step in while TFA is away, but once he's back, he's back. So why shouldn't that work for my character as well?

 

Apart from that I agree with Meta, and the other two posts above.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Sorana

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I was not saying that you should only follow the rules if you want, but I was saying is that you cannot change how a guild functions, just because it is annoying to you. TUBA and the DA have barely any ranks at all, and GB is incredibly organized, but trying to either make DA and TUBA more organized, or GB less organized, or some combination of the two, is just not right. It is not something that we should be doing. Remember, I am the one trying to make a centralized code of laws.

My point about the guilds is that there are several different types of guilds. Their are guilds, like the thieves guild, that doesn't need NPCs, but then their are guilds like the precursors, or Sentinels, or GUESS, or Black crusade, which do need NPCs, because of their mission. Whatever the mission of the Black Crusade is. You are just saying that new guilds have to function in a certain way, which just says, 'the point of your existence can be none of these thing,' and even though that would stop some of the chaos, which really should continue in my opinion, it just means that guilds will have to get enough members to be a great guild, before they do anything about the things.

Have you ever heard, and I mean ever, of a militant body where when one leader dies, and someone takes over their position, and then their heir shows up, that there wasn't a power struggle? The same thing happened with the GB, but it was with actual people. Mraize went inactive, TFA took over, and then Mraize came back, and a power struggle commenced. In more laid back guilds, or if this is a plot point, which would be awesome, I admit, it could work, but to be a stable, governing body, it just doesn't seem practical.

If we do go with the great guild idea, which I am against, but still, I think the requirements should be as follows, they have at least 7 members, they are active in the Alleyverse, and they have a city, which TUBA, GB, and DA all fall into, with GB having oasis, DA having Alleycity, and TUBA having the citadel. Kind've. It is led by a TUBA member...

[MetaTerminal he/him]

That’s a fair assessment. We’re only trying to improve how guilds function, and not limit the creative space that there is to be explored. Although I do disagree with you on how much the proposed ideas would limit people (I do, for example, believe that there are too many NPC armies currently, and there would be nothing preventing new guilds from hiring mercenaries like the Sentinels), it is something to be aware of. And we’re not necessarily trying to make guilds more/less organised - just that we’re trying to make them more involved in the Alleyverse and goal-oriented. It achieves the same purpose no matter how they go about it.

In terms of rules, I think this is just something we fundamentally disagree on. In my eyes, we’re not preventing chaos - we’re just trying to make more effective chaos. Improving the state of guilds opens up realms of possibilities in guild wars (both intra and inter) and politics, faction instability, etc.

I think those are excellent requirements; especially the city idea. Maybe we could have the citadel being the result of becoming a great guild (a privilege granted by their activity and numbers). I’d probably decrease the number of members to five, though, to make it less difficult for guilds to achieve that status.

Corollary: whether or not you have an army should not depend on your guild status. In fact, the way I’d do it is that I’d probably put a hard limit on large armies (small militant groups are fine) going forwards. If troops are needed to achieve that guilds’ mission, then they can be hired. This works both to decrease power level and increase RP opportunity, and given the number of existing armies shouldn’t hinder new guilds too much.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I agree with most of that, and the Precursors are going to hire soldiers, but I'm saying that guilds should be allowed to start with NPCs. Nothing crazy, and we should limit the number of NPC based guilds. My problem with the Great Guild idea is manly this: To continue, both the Black Crusade, and Precursor would have to be assimilated. The Black crusade is a strictly sovereign body, and the Precursors whole gist, is that they work for everyone who has a city, so them join TUBA(which is what would happen) just doesn't work. If the lower guild levels can have NPCs, but need a logical reason why they have them, because they are required for their mission, this would be okay with me.

I'm going back to an earlier mentioned idea, but I think that guildless characters are actually fun. They are free to do whatever they want, but at the same time, have no support. It works well with our current dynamic, and it doesn't seem like a problem.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I am not anti planning. I like planning. I am against strict rules on what people can, or can't do. The laws that I am proposing, only apply to people who agree to them. This allows for some criminal plot lines, while not stopping people from doing stuff. If we plan everything, then we aren't RPGrs, we're a committee of book writers. We do plan the basics, but let people respond how they wish, and then respond how you want. Don't do something that someone has explicitly said that they don't want, because it is just rude, but at he same time, don't use that privilege to do whatever you want. I don't want it to sound like I'm anti limits, because I think that their should be lot's of limits, such as how powerful a character can be. As a person who as fought Hellbent, and mac, to a lesser extent, I can tell you, It is incredibly annoying, and at least Hellbent needs to leave. Going off on a tangent here, but Mac is okay, as long as, and only as, he is a scientist, not a fighter. Like Dusk, if he completely focuses everything he has on scientific exploration, he's fine. Hellbent can't do that by nature of his character, and Hellbent needs to fanish into a poof of balefire, and Mac could, maybe have some severe brain damage  that stops him from being able to commit violence. Tangent over.

*NOTE* Coming into the citadel is agreeing to it's laws.

[Furamirionind]

I am not going to be super helpful with this post, but I like the idea of making guilds more goal oriented/RP encouraging.

I have been trying to enter the allyverse for a while now, but I have been struggling to join a story line.  I think that having guilds be more involved and structured will help new/inactive players start posting.  

When I first joined 17S, the first place i went were allyverse guilds.  I applied for... 4 or 5 of them, but generally they were all either inactive, or they were just a group of people making fun of each other.  This is a huge opportunity wasted in my opinion.  Having goal/objective focused guilds, rp in guild pms, and requiring characters to have a "primary" guild, or requiring charecters in said guild to show their support of it (in some way) I think will help make the allyverse community not feel quite so secluded. Much of this would be on a guild by guild basis, but it should be encouraged by the community.  Perhaps instead if making hard and fast rules, guilds that follow what we want to encourage get benifits?

There are obvious pros and cons to everything. But I don't think I have seen a new player perspective yet (though I was just skimming), so I thought I would post. Make of it what you will.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

What guilds did you apply for, that were making fun of each other?

[Furamirionind]

I Didnt mean that in a bad way, just that you are all a bunch of friends, and it is hard to butt in.  Perhaps I should have done anyway, but my point was that if I feel this way, others are bound to as well.

It was a while ago... the only guild I really remember is the Feruchemists... as that was my favorite.  But they are inactive now.

I really like the idea of only "counting" as a member of a primary guild, and trying to turn a smaller guild into a larger one.  That encourages recruiting new homeless from the new player section, and would be really fulfilling to achieve.

[MetaTerminal he/him]

I have no problem with people breaking ‘laws’. These rules are more designed to make guilds more effective as a form of RP. They aren’t really limits on what the characters can do, but rather what their avatars can do. (Much like how spamming doesn’t affect the characters but affects the avatars.) As long as we strive to keep on one side of that line, I think that we’ll be on the same page.

(The other note is that nothing should prevent criminals from being punished - in that way, someone can commit arson in the Citadel. It just won’t end well for them.)

And I think Fura’s response is quite a reasonable one. Many (most) of our guilds never got off the ground or had a major impact in the RP. These rules are designed to make guilds more active and forge stronger relationships between their members and the system.

Later, I’ll edit in a summary of what everyone has said so far, and what rules we have basically agreed we should implement.

[+Ark1002]

1 hour ago, Furamirionind said:

It was a while ago... the only guild I really remember is the Feruchemists... as that was my favorite.  But they are inactive now.

Yeah, Keepers are great. I remember the good old days...

Hey, wanna join the GBs? I'm head of recruitment, so I can get you in, and we are the most active guild.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Ish.............................................

[+Ark1002]

No, we are.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

ish..................................................................

[+Sorana she/her]

1 hour ago, Furamirionind said:

I am not going to be super helpful with this post, but I like the idea of making guilds more goal oriented/RP encouraging.

I have been trying to enter the allyverse for a while now, but I have been struggling to join a story line.  I think that having guilds be more involved and structured will help new/inactive players start posting.  

When I first joined 17S, the first place i went were allyverse guilds.  I applied for... 4 or 5 of them, but generally they were all either inactive, or they were just a group of people making fun of each other.  This is a huge opportunity wasted in my opinion.  Having goal/objective focused guilds, rp in guild pms, and requiring characters to have a "primary" guild, or requiring charecters in said guild to show their support of it (in some way) I think will help make the allyverse community not feel quite so secluded. Much of this would be on a guild by guild basis, but it should be encouraged by the community.  Perhaps instead if making hard and fast rules, guilds that follow what we want to encourage get benifits?

There are obvious pros and cons to everything. But I don't think I have seen a new player perspective yet (though I was just skimming), so I thought I would post. Make of it what you will.

Thank you for stating that. It offers a new point of view, at least didn't really think of until now.

You are right, fitting in as a new member can be hard, with the history, the guilds and the complicated structure we have at the moment. It is possible, but I can see what you are talking of, experienced it myself.

So thank you, gave me something to think over for a while!

[Archer he/him]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Cited said:

Later, I’ll edit in a summary of what everyone has said so far, and what rules we have basically agreed we should implement.

 

I'll put up a poll based on this, including questions like whether or not people want to continue out of character spying. 

[Voidus]

4 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I am against strict rules on what people can, or can't do.

This is unfortunately in the nature of RP,. without any rules we essentially just have 50 different RPs, each taking place in the mind of only one person. Having a ruleset means we establish a shared understanding about how the world functions which allows our imaginations to overlap with each other and create a shared world. If everything was defined by rules then we're essentially playing a video game but if we don't establish any rules then we have no overlap in our views of the world and we just become a bunch of different novelists each writing our own mental book.

We already have a large number of rules, both implicit and explicit. Some are obvious and assumed, like 'getting punched in the face hurts' others we've explicitly stated 'No Godmodding, where godmodding is defined as...'
Rules are a trade off, yes it limits your freedom, but so does the rule that says you can't kill other peoples characters without their permission. That rule however actually improves player enjoyment, so saying that restrictions decrease player enjoyment isn't necessarily true. Having too many or too few rules can reduce player enjoyment. So I don't think that generically claiming that rules are a bad idea is necessarily a good defense against the creation of new rules. Arguments should be made against specific rules, not rules in general.

[Silva]

3 hours ago, Kidpen said:

Yeah, Keepers are great. I remember the good old days...

 

*remembers hitting Ark with a broom*

Yep. Those were good old days...

4 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

I Didnt mean that in a bad way, just that you are all a bunch of friends, and it is hard to butt in.  Perhaps I should have done anyway, but my point was that if I feel this way, others are bound to as well.

I feel like this is a whole seperate thing as well - that the only way to really integrate these days, correct me if I'm wrong, is to be annoying and loud. It's not necessariliy a bad thing, but I've definitely been noticing that as a trend.

5 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

If we do go with the great guild idea, which I am against, but still, I think the requirements should be as follows, they have at least 7 members, they are active in the Alleyverse, and they have a city, which TUBA, GB, and DA all fall into, with GB having oasis, DA having Alleycity, and TUBA having the citadel. Kind've. It is led by a TUBA member...

TUBA also has a developing colony on the other side of the planet. Just saying.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Silva

[Kidpen he/him]

Liebrarians technically have a city, for the record, but that may go away if some of these are implemented. We don't have many members.

[+Ark1002]

14 minutes ago, Ookla the NotVoidus said:

Liebrarians technically have a city, for the record, but that may go away if some of these are implemented. We don't have many members.

Actually, how many do we have?

I know at least two, you and me.

54 minutes ago, Silva said:

*remembers hitting Ark with a broom*

Yep. Those were good old days...

I got assassinated by the GBs 'cause they didn't know I was a memer...

 

[Kidpen he/him]

7 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

Actually, how many do we have?

I know at least two, you and me.

Woodrack is a member, I think?

[+Ark1002]

He said he isn't.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I could be, I guess. Sure. I'm now a Liebrarian, I guess. Cool.

[MetaTerminal he/him]

That sort of thing is what we’re trying to avoid by implementing a guild limit: just joining a guild to bump up its numbers without actually caring about it and devoting time to it. If you really want to be a Liebrarian, then you should properly join and devote time to it: otherwise you’d run out of space for guilds you actually care about it.

[Archer he/him]

Ene and Tesh joined the Liebrary as well. It's a coincidence that they signed up with a few minutes of each other immediately after a discussion in the TUBA PM about developing our spy network to infiltrate more guilds. Why, I expect they've been very diligent and productive members. Not that I would know, of course. I definitely haven't received reports on their progress. No, sir. Not me. 

[Kidpen he/him]

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Paragon said:

Ene and Tesh joined the Liebrary as well. It's a coincidence that they signed up with a few minutes of each other immediately after a discussion in the TUBA PM about developing our spy network to infiltrate more guilds. Why, I expect they've been very diligent and productive members. Not that I would know, of course. I definitely haven't received reports on their progress. No, sir. Not me. 

I vaguely remember them joining in the same day and me being like "You guys are obviously spies, but whatever come on in" 

This was the 100th post in this topic 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Ookla the NotVoidus