Power Level Reform

[Kidpen he/him]

44 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

I personally believe this accounts for the issues @Ookla the NotVoidus @Ark1002 and @Darth Woodrack propose, as the numbers still only matter if they become a problem.

Hmm. I'm OK with this, with the understanding that sometimes there will be exceptions if they provide sufficient reasoning. 

Edit: I'm also OK with using it as an analysis tool. And of course I'm significantly outnumbered here, so we can just implement it as people want. It's difficult to make everyone happuly. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Ookla the NotVoidus

[Furamirionind]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the NotVoidus said:

Hmm. I'm OK with this, with the understanding that sometimes there will be exceptions if they provide sufficient reasoning. 

Edit: I'm also OK with using it as an analysis tool. And of course I'm significantly outnumbered here, so we can just implement it as people want. It's difficult to make everyone happuly. 

You feel like your view is outnumbered? I also feel like my view is outnumbered. lol : ).  Perhaps that means we both have around the same support for each of our opinions? (partly I don't value my own opinion much because I am not active in this community yet, the more active people are, generally the more valued their opinion probably will be)

I also 100% agree with the exceptions part.

Points also cannot factor in most weaknesses either (we could create some generic ones, but it will be different for each character...). So if I made an OP character, but then said they run around in circles screaming at the slightest hint of a challenge... that is a pretty severe weakness, and might balance out pretty well. : )

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

I've been on the edge about joining this for awhile now, but I'm now pretty sure I want to, and I want to give my two cents.

First off, the Fox Laws (kenod's suggested rules for building and growing characters. I call them that for clarity, and because it sounds good) are something I can get behind one-hundred percent. I'm all about community accountability, especially since the other RPers are the one's who will have to deal with power increases or random Shardblades that they don't remember from their last run-in. I mean, the characters wouldn't know about new stuff anyways, but that has been an unspoken rule in the Reckoners RP for awhile, and it has been really helpful for me to remember that I need to check my new tech (Karabiner's power is really fun) off with the others.

Second, Hellbent Syndrome has been one of my worst nightmares ever since I started reading little bits of this RP over the summer. (I think that's when it was, anyway)

Third, I really like the point system proposed by Ookla the Meme-Theif, and will personally design my characters to follow it as building rules, but I can see that other are staunchly opposed to it, so I feel that we should only use it as a quantifier across the board, and only invoke it against ourselves and those who's characters start breaking the game. The reason for this is that, even if I was certain I was in the majority on this one, I know that angry RPers are worse for a story than gamebreaking characters, and so would rather err on the side of diplomacy.

Also, I am saddened that I am too late to have the first - and therefor most plausible - Zinc Compounder. Because tha power is really cool, but also really limited, and I love it. I will be a useless Iron Compounder instead...

[Voidus]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the NotVoidus said:

Hmm. I'm OK with this, with the understanding that sometimes there will be exceptions if they provide sufficient reasoning. 

Edit: I'm also OK with using it as an analysis tool. And of course I'm significantly outnumbered here, so we can just implement it as people want. It's difficult to make everyone happuly. 

There will always be leeway, it's just a way to make the process a bit easier and more objective. For me the decision is ultimately with Archer, though I'll occasionally provide input, but if he wants to accept a character that's a little outside of the listed limit then I'd trust it was for a good reason.
 

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Palindrome said:

I've been on the edge about joining this for awhile now, but I'm now pretty sure I want to, and I want to give my two cents..

Can I interest you in a welcome-to-the-RP cookie? 

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

5 minutes ago, Voidus said:

There will always be leeway, it's just a way to make the process a bit easier and more objective. For me the decision is ultimately with Archer, though I'll occasionally provide input, but if he wants to accept a character that's a little outside of the listed limit then I'd trust it was for a good reason.
 

Can I interest you in a welcome-to-the-RP cookie? 

You're kind of DA, so... I'm somewhat hesitant to eat this cookie. See, last time I accidentally burned an Iron Spike ABD ended up with a big, blue physique and a splitting headache.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Ookla the Palindrome
posted too soon.

[Voidus]

We've worked out the kinks I swear, definitely no blue skin this time.

Cookie may instill eternal loyalty to the DA in its consumer, but the DA is awesome so you should be eternally loyal to the DA anyway and also free superpowers so this cookie has only beneficial effects with the possible exception of the loss of your soul.

[Ataraxian Wist she/her]

4 minutes ago, Voidus said:

We've worked out the kinks I swear, definitely no blue skin this time.

Cookie may instill eternal loyalty to the DA in its consumer, but the DA is awesome so you should be eternally loyal to the DA anyway and also free superpowers so this cookie has only beneficial effects with the possible exception of the loss of your soul.

It was actually mac last time. But I'll pass. I just remembered the DA Disclaimer, and I don't think I'd end up with the legal high ground if things turned bad.

[Voidus]

Unless you join the DA, then you definitely end up with the legal high ground. 

[Furamirionind]

1 minute ago, Voidus said:

Unless you join the DA, then you definitely end up with the legal high ground. 

Umm, I think the gov may have some issues with people willingly accepting DA baked goods... : P

Edited December 13, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Voidus]

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

Umm, I think the gov may have some issues with people willingly accepting DA baked goods... : P

Fortunately for the DA, all lawyers are either DA experiments or members so we still have the legal high ground even if the gov disagrees
(But as a note, this is the kind of reason I think the government is unlikely to function, the DA isn't going to give up spiking people so they're either not going to accept a governmental position or the other guilds are going to need to legalize spiking people)

[Silva]

Better just to accept cookies from TUBA. Less trouble. 

Anyone want? We're always offering.

[Furamirionind]

Just now, Voidus said:

Fortunately for the DA, all lawyers are either DA experiments or members so we still have the legal high ground even if the gov disagrees
(But as a note, this is the kind of reason I think the government is unlikely to function, the DA isn't going to give up spiking people so they're either not going to accept a governmental position or the other guilds are going to need to legalize spiking people)

What about me? I am not in the DA, yet am a lawyer! (source: LawyersRUs inc.)

The my proposal for gov isn't flushed out, but according to what I have (the 3 rep idea), only the Chancellor can draft laws, so if a member of the DA is Chancellor, then they have no risk of a law like that being passed, because it will never be created. Assuming TUBA's rep is Chancellor, a law like that will likely be drafted, but the DA just needs to convince the BG to vote against it. How do they convince GB of that? Diplomacy, sacrifices, trade-offs and compromises. 

Remember to look at what each guild gains from this in addition to what they lose:
TUBA - gains a non-combative way to try to restrain the DA
DA - gains significant additional power over other guilds, due to currently having (I think) the most might. This allows them complete their goals with greater ease.

[Voidus]

Well then you're not a real lawyer, after all lawyers have no souls, the DA steals souls, therefore lawyers = DA.
My logic is infallible.

The issue there is that the DA is rather insanely OP, so they don't really need to cooperate with other people, but also they don't get involved with other guilds affairs or act other than in self defense. (Because otherwise the RP wouldn't be very interesting). So while it's possible that they might participate in a government if other people tried to set one up, but they'd just ignore any decisions they didn't like because there's no way anyone could enforce them.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

54 minutes ago, Ookla the Palindrome said:

Second, Hellbent Syndrome has been one of my worst nightmares ever since I started reading little bits of this RP over the summer. (I think that's when it was, anyway)

 

It's catching on!

17 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

DA - gains significant additional power over other guilds, due to currently having (I think) the most might. This allows them complete their goals with greater ease.

I find this is a problem, not a solution. The DA's limitless power makes it annoying to RP in any sort of opposition to them, and them having even more power over use, would just make that worse.

EDIT: I saw voidus emojis and immediately thought that he was agreeing with the additional power.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Darth Woodrack

[Voidus]

2 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

It's catching on!

I find this is a problem, not a solution. The DA's limitless power makes it annoying to RP in any sort of opposition to them, and them having even more power over use, would just make that worse.

EDIT: I saw voidus emojis and immediately thought that he was agreeing with the additional power.

The organisation wouldn't turn down additional power but yeah this is one of the things I was getting at, the DA would either form a dictatorship or completely ignore any sections of government that they disagreed with because there's no way anyone could force them into compliance.

There are some plans for limiting the DA a little more next era but that's more intended for personal interactions not intra-guild affairs so I'm not sure if it'd solve the problem.

[Archer he/him]

1 hour ago, Voidus said:

For me the decision is ultimately with Archer, though I'll occasionally provide input, but if he wants to accept a character that's a little outside of the listed limit then I'd trust it was for a good reason.

Remind me to talk to you about that. ^ 

I judge characters the way I judge duels. Anyone who has ever had me as a mediator for one of those can attest that to ensure fairness, I like to quantify things. That's how I roll. The optimist in me wants to believe that every new RPer takes my advice and compares their character to the power level of other characters and tries to make theirs average, but I realize that doesn't always happen. 

I would like a solid rule like a points list to fall back on when making decisions. I don't like telling people their character is OP, but not being able to give them a good reason. As a result, I often let more powerful characters than I'd like to be approved. 

I wouldn't want such a list to be completely hidden. I understand that people might be tempted to use it to make the most powerful character possible, but I want to maintain public faith in the system as well. So, I recommend tucking it away somewhere obscure, but accessible, like the wiki. 

To comment on the discussion about new members having trouble joining, I agree with the suggestion of making a thread for that, and writing some steps. Just today I got a PM from someone who said they were confused about how this whole thing works. They knew enough to PM me, but all the unwritten rules and assumptions confused them. So I believe there's a need. 

[Voidus]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Paragon said:

Remind me to talk to you about that. ^ 

Ok: Talk to me about that.

[+Ark1002]

At that point I agree, I just want to make sure it is not too restrictive, such as saying nothing else is allowed. Someone will bring in something that doesn't it the point system, that's just the sort of thing we do.

My problem is I was comparing Hellbent to Kane when I made it

Edited December 14, 2018 by Ark1002

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Personally I definately support using the number system as a form of analysis as opposed to a form of construction. 

I don’t have much to add, just that we should make sure that the system is as accurate as possible, and tries to capture as many eventualities even if it doesn’t capture them all. Finally, we need to remember that it’s often how players are RPed that makes them OP or not. Not just their powers. 

[+Ark1002]

Yes, we have Mace, a Fullborn, and he has never been OP.

[Karnatheon he/him]

59 minutes ago, Voidus said:

The organisation wouldn't turn down additional power but yeah this is one of the things I was getting at, the DA would either form a dictatorship or completely ignore any sections of government that they disagreed with because there's no way anyone could force them into compliance.

There are some plans for limiting the DA a little more next era but that's more intended for personal interactions not intra-guild affairs so I'm not sure if it'd solve the problem.

Well, regardless of what government type is decided upon, if the DA isn't going to hold themselves accountable to follow any decisions they don't like, regardless of what it is, then no inter-guild government is feasible. As many people have said, the DA, or at least the higher ups, can pretty much do whatever they want and no one will have the power to stop them, so even if the rest of the Alleyverse tried to force them into something they wouldn't budge. (This isn't something I know from personal experience, but based off Ark's comment about the 7 Day War and other things in other places, this is the conclusion I've come to.) I think the only way this would work is if, for whatever reason, the DA agreed to abide by decisions made by the government. Whether that be the higher ups, like Voidus, forcing the rest of them in line or something else. I guess I don't really see this happening, based off what other people have said. If that's the case, and the DA won't willingly go along with things they don't like here, then honestly the whole idea of a government is useless because you can't create a system like this where the most powerful people it would potentially affect aren't going to go along with it, because they could just wipe out or resist any enforcement that anyone tries to place on them. Basically, if not all parties are willing to go along with the groups consensus, regardless of who it benefits, then no one can be expected to go along with it because there is only downside to it. So, if the DA isn't willing to participate and follow whatever happens, then discussion about this should just end here because there's no point in continuing.

[Voidus]

I suppose the alternative is that the DA becomes the defacto underground for the Alleyverse where lawless people can have some kind of a safe haven.
Another point would be that while the guild itself is virtually immune to any attempt to impose authority upon it, normal character restrictions will apply to any PCs from the DA. So if they want to interact with the rest of the Alleyverse they'd either have to still adhere to the law or risk getting captured as soon as they leave DA territory. Might be a nice societal divide.

[Kidpen he/him]

4 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I suppose the alternative is that the DA becomes the defacto underground for the Alleyverse where lawless people can have some kind of a safe haven.
Another point would be that while the guild itself is virtually immune to any attempt to impose authority upon it, normal character restrictions will apply to any PCs from the DA. So if they want to interact with the rest of the Alleyverse they'd either have to still adhere to the law or risk getting captured as soon as they leave DA territory. Might be a nice societal divide.

Or an eventual main plot/new era (not 3, obviously) is the DA decides to just take over the Alleyverse and it's basically a dystopia.

 

[Karnatheon he/him]

So the DA wouldn't just immediately wipe out anyone that attempted to enforce the rules on individual members of the DA? I think that could be enough, though if the DA as a guild won't abide by their decisions, then maybe the DA shouldn't be allowed to have a voice in the government. Along the lines of your proposal Voidus. 

Edit: As long as your territory wasn't threatened.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Ookla the Ring

[Furamirionind]

42 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I suppose the alternative is that the DA becomes the defacto underground for the Alleyverse where lawless people can have some kind of a safe haven.
Another point would be that while the guild itself is virtually immune to any attempt to impose authority upon it, normal character restrictions will apply to any PCs from the DA. So if they want to interact with the rest of the Alleyverse they'd either have to still adhere to the law or risk getting captured as soon as they leave DA territory. Might be a nice societal divide.

This is what I thought the DA was... With the GBs being like a middle ground between the DA and TUBA...

Quote

Well then you're not a real lawyer, after all lawyers have no souls, the DA steals souls, therefore lawyers = DA.
My logic is infallible.

...

Quote

The issue there is that the DA is rather insanely OP, so they don't really need to cooperate with other people, but also they don't get involved with other guilds affairs or act other than in self defense. (Because otherwise the RP wouldn't be very interesting). So while it's possible that they might participate in a government if other people tried to set one up, but they'd just ignore any decisions they didn't like because there's no way anyone could enforce them.

 

59 minutes ago, Ookla the Ring said:

Well, regardless of what government type is decided upon, if the DA isn't going to hold themselves accountable to follow any decisions they don't like, regardless of what it is, then no inter-guild government is feasible. As many people have said, the DA, or at least the higher ups, can pretty much do whatever they want and no one will have the power to stop them, so even if the rest of the Alleyverse tried to force them into something they wouldn't budge. (This isn't something I know from personal experience, but based off Ark's comment about the 7 Day War and other things in other places, this is the conclusion I've come to.) I think the only way this would work is if, for whatever reason, the DA agreed to abide by decisions made by the government. Whether that be the higher ups, like Voidus, forcing the rest of them in line or something else. I guess I don't really see this happening, based off what other people have said. If that's the case, and the DA won't willingly go along with things they don't like here, then honestly the whole idea of a government is useless because you can't create a system like this where the most powerful people it would potentially affect aren't going to go along with it, because they could just wipe out or resist any enforcement that anyone tries to place on them. Basically, if not all parties are willing to go along with the groups consensus, regardless of who it benefits, then no one can be expected to go along with it because there is only downside to it. So, if the DA isn't willing to participate and follow whatever happens, then discussion about this should just end here because there's no point in continuing.

Well... I don't know how to respond to this. This sounds to me like a problem with the allyverse that this was allowed to happen.  If we are saying that the DA has basically unlimited power, what is the point of RPing against them? What is even the point of having a non-DA opinion about anything? why try? this removes a LOT of RP possibilities... And fun in general. It is one thing to try to have an over powered group that will be hard to control, but could take a lot of unlikely events happening (like the entire allyverse uniting against them), but it is completely another to say they are practically unstoppable.

This seriously discourages me with the potential future of the Allyverse. If you have a group that can only gain power, they may as well already rule world.

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Ring said:

So the DA wouldn't just immediately wipe out anyone that attempted to enforce the rules on individual members of the DA? I think that could be enough, though if the DA as a guild won't abide by their decisions, then maybe the DA shouldn't be allowed to have a voice in the government. Along the lines of your proposal Voidus. 

Edit: As long as your territory wasn't threatened.

I appreciate you trying to work in the overpowered DA AND have a gov and compromise, this could potentially work... but why are we leaving a 100% abuse-able system in this world? Will it anger that many people that we can't just say after the time skip they are now equal power to the rest of the world or something.  This seriously ticks me off, as I don't see much point of RPing if an entire group of people have infinite power, and being ok with using it. 1-2 people maybe.

If the DA has infinite power, there should be NO PCs in it. It should be 100% NPCs. This just... This just... i don't know.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind