Spren, Awakening, and Metalminds in the Cognitive realm

[Ixthos he/him]

Using the more invested type of spren as an example - which is a rather broad term, as on Roshar a stick is just as much a spren as a santhid, which is just as much a spren as Syl, who is just as much a spren as the Stormfather, who is just as much a spren as Cultivation, who is just as much a spren as a little flame in Shadesmar - I think that Awakened objects, such as lifeless and Nightblood, count as artificial spren, of the type just below a santhid, or between a santhid and Syl, or in extreme cases, the Stormfather. Now, we already know that Nightblood is a robot spren, but what I mean is, anything Awakened is an artificial cognitive construct, rather than the more natural spren that form from general ideas coalescing, and the more breaths an Awakened object has the higher up the chain it moves.

A rope invested with a few breaths might manifest in the Cognitive realm - either on Nalthis or where ever else it could be produced - would begin to appear less like a "glass bead" (or whatever the local equivalent is) and more as an organism in the Cognitive realm, either aware of the Cognitive realm like a spren / spren not fully in the physical realm, or even the flame that corresponds to life in the physical. Lifeless, with only a single needed breath, might also appear as a flame. The more breaths involved in something, or the more organic it was, the more the Cognitive component would transform, and so anything Awakened would begin to appear as a native creature of the Cognitive realm, or at least more alive. The result, when seen in the Cognitive realm, would be rather striking, the bead of the object either blazing to life, or transforming into a creature able to sense the Cognitive realm, or completely blind, and able to communicate even more than stick - a more complex idea simply than stating what it is, or remembering what it used to be (which seems to be useful in soulcasting), but able to express the command it was given.

 

This now brings up Metalminds. I think that the key part to remember is that they have the term minds in them. Like Awakening, I think metalminds have a cognitive component also, that the investiture might not be just stored in the Spiritual realm, with a link to it, but rather at least in part in the Cognitive realm, and so likewise an invested metalmind would begin to appear as a creature, and possibly able to communicate likewise, so a coppermind might be able to tell you its contents without loosing them ... or maybe it would lose them ... and maybe it wouldn't appear initially, but would be more likely to form into a type of spren over a period.

 

Either way, what do you think? Do you think Awakening and Metalminds form artificial spren?

[tmnsquirtle]

Maybe if left in one place for a very, very long time. Otherwise, I doubt it - metalminds seem to store a portion of one's spiritweb, which I imagine wouldn't be conducive to creating an entirely new cognitive aspect. 

From another point of view, do you think that the stormlight stored in gems becomes a spren? Or is it just pure investiture that will slowly leak out and transfer back into the ecosystem? I definitely fall on the side of the latter. From everything that we've seen and been told, developing an entire mind seems to take a very long time.

[+Invocation]

If you left one with enough power alone for long enough, sure, it would generate Cognitive effects like that. We're talking a very long time, though. Thousands of years for your average, non-Compounder's metalmind. Compounding would still make it take longer than you could probably feasibly hope for, which led some people a while ago to combine that and layering speed bubbles to see the effects faster than you possibly could otherwise, which was a neat thread (I'd link it, but I can't find it). The Cognitive being would probably be related to you in some way, shape, or form due to the Identity aspect of the metalminds, as well as probably relate to what is stored therein.

[Ixthos he/him]

For the moment, lets ignore metalminds. Just for this paragraph at least. On Roshar, stick could communicate to Shallan, through her use of Soulcasting and Pattern, that it was a stick. It had an idea of what a stick is, due to the spiritual connections, and it had been a stick for a while, so it thought of itself as a stick. If someone were to Awaken stick - and that doesn't involve arguing with it, just placing in Breaths and a command - do you think that stick would still be thinking of itself as just a stick, or would say it is a stick with a mission?

 

Now, metalminds - if a metalmind were to be seen on Roshar - or anywhere - with a soucaster, it would also have an identity - "I store health" for example, or "I remember this memory" - and would also have more investiture. A metalmind likely has a more complex presence due both to its link to a magic like Feruchemy, and also due to the stored investiture.

 

Now, the key point is this: Nightblood is very specifically not described in the Cognitive realm yet. It is very invested, yes - but also consider that many Awakened objects can also be very invested - not as much usually, but they are large amounts of investiture, with a more complex identity than most normal objects, placing them between normal objects and spren or people, or at the same type as simpler types of lesser spren.

 

@tmnsquirtle I agree with you on that - it does leak out and become part of the ecosystem again, but I think there is a key difference between stormlight leaking and an Awakened object and a metalmind. Spren find pools of investiture and transform them into more spren, much like any living organism absorbs neutrients and reproduces, though in this case more like an ice sculpture finding ice and carving a new copy. Awakening is similar, as it places investiture into a structure and then shapes it, while stormlight is just a pool of power unshaped.

 

@Invocation If you can find it I'd like to see it :-) I think that a metalmind's identity - as in, the identity of the material that became the storage container, not the identity that links it to the Feruchemist - is independent of the identity of its contents, or rather, distinct. I think it would develop as a separate thing, just with that identity as a link to the Feruchemist, rather than its own identity.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Ixthos

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

@Invocation If you can find it I'd like to see it :-) I think that a metalmind's identity - as in, the identity of the material that became the storage container, not the identity that links it to the Feruchemist - is independent of the identity of its contents, or rather, distinct. I think it would develop as a separate thing, just with that identity as a link to the Feruchemist, rather than its own identity.

I think I found it.

 

[tmnsquirtle]

On 1/1/2019 at 2:35 PM, Ixthos said:

Now, metalminds - if a metalmind were to be seen on Roshar - or anywhere - with a soucaster, it would also have an identity - "I store health" for example, or "I remember this memory"

The reason for my disagreement comes down, in part, to this statement, which to me seems like conjecture.

As a side note, on the scale of things-gaining-sentience, metalminds change constantly. Even one that is only touched once a week probably changes too often for the effect to take hold.

 

Also, I had another thought. Stick's cognitive aspect came from the collective unconsciousness, not necessarily from being invested. I would propose that this type of sapience, and the kind that comes about from investiture pooling in one place and being left alone, are actually separate.

[Quantus he/him]

26 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

The reason for my disagreement comes down, in part, to this statement, which to me seems like conjecture.

As a side note, on the scale of things-gaining-sentience, metalminds change constantly. Even one that is only touched once a week probably changes too often for the effect to take hold.

 

Also, I had another thought. Stick's cognitive aspect came from the collective unconsciousness, not necessarily from being invested. I would propose that this type of sapience, and the kind that comes about from investiture pooling in one place and being left alone, are actually separate.

I agree they are separate, though if a Ship can know it is a ship and even have some amount of attachment to it's crew, I think a metalmind would be at least as self-aware, at least in the context of a Soulcaster.  It might not be able to tell you anything specific about what's stored in it (the memory, the sense, etc) but Id think it would know it is a Metalmind in Function on top of knowing it's form.  And to a skilled Soulcaster they might be able to get more out of it like a general sense of whose Identity is in it (or at least if there is no Identity present).

[Lidolas he/him]

20 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

As a side note, on the scale of things-gaining-sentience, metalminds change constantly. Even one that is only touched once a week probably changes too often for the effect to take hold.

Just to play devil's advocate:

Does a cup's identity change depending on how much water it holds?

[Quantus he/him]

58 minutes ago, Lidolas said:

Just to play devil's advocate:

Does a cup's identity change depending on how much water it holds?

I wouldnt think so, any more than a person's identity changes with their cloths.  It might be aware of its contents though, on some level. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Interesting conjecture @Ixthos, but we have seen an awakened object in the Cognitive Realm, namely Azure's awakened Sword. I believe it looked the same as it did in the Physical Realm (it's been a while since I've read OB, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Dead shardblades manifest as deadeyes in Shadesmar, but then again they are caught between two worlds not permanently existing in either. An awakened object, I think is an object first, so it's primarily a physical construct.

The only other time we've seen into another shard world's cognitive realm was Scadrial's sub-astral in MB secret History. We saw raw investiture from the Dor being piped to the Ire compound to make the physical realm manifested items (bricks, etc) more durable and solid (though Kelsier could still will himself through them), but there was no hint that these manifested bricks were gaining sentience though they were literally being pumped full of Investiture. It would have been interesting to see a Seon, but I don't think we did (maybe somebody who's doing a reread of MBSH could look for signs that one of the people in the Ire compound is in fact a Seon??).

I think that awakened Objects and metalminds are both physical objects that have been combined with Investiture, and the investure becomes part of the physical structure of the item, just like water becomes part of the organism that drank it. Spren are different because they developed solely from investiture their self-conception is distinct from the object that the Nahel bond allows them to transform into, namely a sword (or whatever weapon their radiant is envisioning within limits). And even in this altered state, they are still composed of Investiture. So I think it would be counter intuitive to think that metalminds and awakened objects would somehow have a different apparent manifestation in the Cognitive Realm (though most Investiture is described as luminous, so perhaps they would have a tendency to glow a bit?)

I think there is a large gulf between an awakened object and a sentient awakened object, and I think this gulf in sentience is similar to the gulf between a sentient awakened object and a self created sapient manifestation of investiture (i.e. a spren or a seon). I think Nightbloods frozen development (i.e. still talking about Shashara) is a clue that an awakened objects sentience is limited to some upper bound. Nightblood has a functional limit to how much experience he can get, as he spends most of his time in an aluminum sheath, and really only gains knowledge of the outside world through telepathic communication. Also when he is unsheathed and consuming investiture he seems to black out (like a person who has had too much alcohol). So his two states are functionally blind living vicariously, and an insensate state caused from overconsumption.

I asked Brandon at the Portland signing for OB what would happen if Nightblood stabbed a bead that represented a castle in the Cognitive Realm, and he said "If you can get Nightblood into the cognitive Realm, then it would destroy the castle", but this implies that it's difficult for NB to transition to the CR. We know Azure's sword made it, and we know that to transition to the CR physical matter is converted to Investiture, so would this inability to transition be because of Investiture's innate tendency to resist other investiture? And if this is true, how the heck did Nightblood  (one of the most heavily invested non-shards in the Cosmere) get to Roshar. I suspect Nightblood was only able to do that with direct Shardic involvement (Edgli most likely but possibly Cultivation (kind of suspicious that the NightWatcher offers to give Dalinar Nightblood)).

Sorry for all of the parenthetical asides (but sometimes it's nice formatting, right?)

Edited January 4, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Cleaned up the post substantially, made it make more sense (and added some more parentheses)

[tmnsquirtle]

22 hours ago, Lidolas said:

Just to play devil's advocate:

Does a cup's identity change depending on how much water it holds?

The difference is that OP's argument is constructed partially on the relationship between the metalmind and the investiture itself. So, to your point, I assume the cup doesn't care about the water in it. But it's apples and oranges.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevineI think it's important to distinguish between things that are in the cognitive realm (having travelled there from the physical, using perps or other methods) and things that exist in the cognitive realm (by nature of realmatic theory). Azure's sword was in the CR by the first method; beads are there by the second.

[Ixthos he/him]

Sorry for the delay in responding everyone.

 

@Invocation Thanks :-) I'll give the topic a look, though off hand I actually don't think Scadrial will develop shardblades per se - I think they will make invested weapons, but probably ranged, just as others will start to develop ranged weapon.

 

@tmnsquirtle A Feruchemist sees their metalmind as more than just metal. If soulcast, it wouldn't say "I am tin", it would say "I store senses", or even "I store senses for Saze". It would have extra investiture, and extra investiture increases its cognitive presence. Even if regularly depleted, it would still think of itself as a container, just, as @Lidolas notes, as a cup would.

 

@Quantus Agreed on the ship count. And agreed with your agreement with Lidolas ;-)

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I think the key difference is, like you noted, the spren and deadeyes are part of both worlds, or at least are more cognitive than normal matter. When they transitioned over - their cloths didn't turn into beads. Spren, even those that bonded a knight, are from the Cognitive Realm and are still partially present in it in a more intimate way than the cognitive component of a physical object, so the accident that sent them there is probably going to affect them differently than it affects objects which exist mainly in the physical. The link in my first post actually is to a topic I made about the differences between subastrals or regions of the cognitive realm.

Nightblood is an interesting case - I think whatever it looks like in the cognitive realm would either prove or disprove this theory. I think Nightblood can actually grow the more investiture it has metabolised, but while absorbing investiture it is overwhelmed by the command, not letting anything it has learnt deter it from its goal.

 I am going to make a slightly stretchy conjecture: Awakening is like an inverse of the spren transitioning into the physical realm. Spren - when transitioning into the physical realm - look a little like their cognitive component - as they are entirely cognitive component - and seem to mainly lose parts of themselves when becoming physical, needing an anchor to regrow themselves, but obviously still maintaining some physical form. I think Awakening an object has a similar result - an increased presence in another realm, only without loosing the physical component due to the Breath forming that link. Or, to put it in other words, it depends on if Breath is more like a spren or more like a spike - does it exist mainly physically or mainly in the cognitive? If cognitive, then it would manifest as something in the cognitive realm, and would be shaped by the command into an artificial spren.

 

Basically, I think for Awakening, if you tried to soulcast it, it would tell you its command in addition to what it is, and the more complex the command, the more like a spren it would be. And a metalmind would behave more like a mind than something which isn't storing investiture would.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

8 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I think it's important to distinguish between things that are in the cognitive realm (having travelled there from the physical, using perps or other methods) and things that exist in the cognitive realm (by nature of realmatic theory). Azure's sword was in the CR by the first method; beads are there by the second.

and

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

 I think the key difference is, like you noted, the spren and deadeyes are part of both worlds, or at least are more cognitive than normal matter. When they transitioned over - their cloths didn't turn into beads. Spren, even those that bonded a knight, are from the Cognitive Realm and are still partially present in it in a more intimate way than the cognitive component of a physical object, so the accident that sent them there is probably going to affect them differently than it affects objects which exist mainly in the physical. The link in my first post actually is to a topic I made about the differences between subastrals or regions of the cognitive realm.

I think there may be a fundamental aspect of this that you're missing. Say there is, for example, a stick on Roshar. It exists simultaneously in the Phsical realm as the collection of matter that we would recognize as a particular stick and as a cognitive entity that is the abstract collection of all of the qualities and attributes of that particular physical object as it has been perceived. On Roshar's sub-astral this cognitive entity would be a glass bead, on Scadrial's sub-astral this cognitive entity would be a misty insubstantial stick. Cognitive entities are created by sentient thought, they are abstractions based on material reality and they are linked to the items that they have been abstracted from. Transitioning to the Shadesmar while holding this stick would not have any effect on the bead that represents that stick. 

Spren are interesting cases because they are sentient pieces of investiture. They started out as investiture and were created in the Cognitive Realm, so they are basically living abstractions. It's been one of my long running theories that the reason Spren form Nahel bonds with Humans is to gain more access to the Phyiscal Realm.

This is just my own understanding of realmatics, so take it for what it's worth, but here goes. I think that there are basically 4 classes of objects/beings in the cosmere, Physical Objects, Sentient Objects/Beings, Living Ideas, and Spiritual Entities.

• Physical Objects are matter and primarily exist in the physical realm. They can become associated with or develop a cognitive apsect based on perceptions or thoughts that have been thought about them or directed to them.
• Sentient Objects/Beings are entities capable of forming perceptions about the material world. These thoughts are in a sense bits of god's power to create, these thoughts and perceptions collectively have the power to create in the realm of Abstract thought, the Cognitive realm. Thought requires energy, energy does work, and because matter is convertible to energy, and energy is convertible to Investiture, these collective poolings of thought energy have a creative force, similar to how Shards and Adonalsium create and shape Physical reality, except that these thoughts and perceptions create/alter cognitive reality.
• Living Ideas are beings that started out as ideas or as self perceiving condensations of investiture (Seons, sprens). They exist in the cognitive realm and occasionally manifest in the Physical realm (when a collection of thought energy exists in strong enough magnitude that is inline with the nature of their abstraction (like pain spren drawn to a battelfield)). Their other route to the physical realm is to form a connection with a sentient being (like KR spren and Seons). By attaching to the spirit web of a physical realm being they are granted a better purchase in the PR and a route to increased self-awareness by increased opportunity to have novel experiences.
• Spiritual Entities are entities that exist primarily in the Spiritual Realm, these are the Shards, and possibly Living Ideas when they are forming a conduit to allow the sentient being that they are linked to to channel investiture to do work (not sure on this part, but this is my working theory at least).

 

This is from a post that you can find in my signature about the Nature of the Cognitive Realm, and I think this a reasonable explanation for why the different sub-astrals look as differently as they do:

On 1/8/2018 at 3:35 AM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I think that how sapient life primarily interacts with the Investiture of a given Shardworld dictates how that given Shardworld's sub-astral presents. We saw in MB:SH that everything was composed of translucent mist, Kelsier was able to will himself to walk through the misty walls. Preservation heavily invested himself in the mists to help humans out, this was the major Physical Realm manifestation of Investiture. Because the sapient life primarily interacted with this form of Investiture, the Cognitive Realm mirrors this manifestation but is further altered by collective beliefs in general. Scadrial is a special case, it was created out of whole cloth by Ruin and Preservation, all sapient life was created at the same time that all of the PR of Scadrial was created. From the beginning of life on Scadrial Preservation was manifest in the PR as the Mist, which was essentially his way of touching the world. Because all sapient life experienced this Mist, the Scadrian sub-astral was built of this mist.

On Roshar, things are different. This world existed with sapient life pre-shattering. The primary interaction with Investiture on this planet has always been stormlight, the original inhabitants have hearts made of gems. I think we are 6,000 years in from the Shattering of Adonalsium, so that is plenty of time for the collective ideas of sapient life to have transformed this sub-astral so that it is more in line with how they interact with investiture, but I think the holdover for viewing this subastral is gems (though I do wonder what Shadesmar would have looked like when just the Singers were living there). So how do Rosharan's interact with Investiture on their planet? What is their money, what do they use to light their houses and keeps? They use glass spheres with stormlight infused gems, so this is how their CR presents. I think the further reason for this presentation of Cognitive souls in Shadesmar is that this is like a visualization of Spinoza's monadology. Each thing is represented as a singular entity. It is complete without the possibility of extension or division. Every idea that can be thought about a composite thing is broken apart into a singular bead that represents the soul of a particular idea. Like in Jasnah's interlude when she grabs the bead that is the soul of the idea of the castle, because it exists as a singular whole idea, it has it's own bead, even though it is composed of multiple hallways, rooms, tapestries, chairs etc. Every idea is incarnate as a singular bead. I think this is freaking rad, but the reason every soul of an idea is encapsulated in a glass bead is because that is how the sapient life on Roshar primarily interacts with the manifest Investiture on Roshar.

Also, I read your Sphere and Mist post @Ixthos and it was really good, if you are interested there's some great discussion about similar topics about the Cognitive Realm on this thread:

 

All of this does lead to some very interesting thought experiments which would be fun to ask Brandon at a signing.

• What would have happened if Adolin had been transitioned into Shadesmar while his shard blade had been summoned? Would Maya have retained the shape of a shard blade, or would he have been holding Maya by her feet?
• Nightblood is a pretty terrifying sword, once it's widely know what kind destruction he is capable of, and therefore becomes widely known and thought about on Roshar, would a glass bead of Nightblood appear in Shadesmar? If so, what would happen if Nightblood stabbed the bead that represented his cognitive aspect?
• What would happen if you transitioned to shadesmar with a stick, found the bead that corresponding to that particular stick and used stormlight to make the cognitive aspect or bead "manifest" in Shadesmar? Would there be anything perceptually different about the physical stick that you brought into Shadesmar? Could you soulcast the Manifested stick? If yes, what would that do to the physical stick?

 

Here are some interesting WoBs on the subject, spoilered below for length:
 

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

You know how the whole group goes into Shadesmar. What would happen if they accidentally eat a bead, and then leave Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That would not be good for them.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Would they just explode with whatever the object was?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's not exactly how it works. Fortunately. But I wouldn't recommend ingesting any beads.

source

Quote

Jess [PENDING REVIEW]

The black glass beads in Shadesmar on Roshar. If you could somehow get that material into the Physical Realm, would it hold stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, that's a RAFO. Because getting stuff out of the Cognitive Realm into the Physical Realm is a different matter from taking stuff from the Physical Realm to the Cognitive.

Jess [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, you don't have to weigh in on whether they could get it to the Physical Realm...!

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Still a RAFO!

source

Quote

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

If Nightblood were in the cognitive realm and was used to stab a bead that was the cognitive representation of a castle, would the castle be destroyed in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

If you could get Nightblood into the Cognitive Realm, then yes. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

What would happen to people who were in the castle at the time? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

They wouldn't be affected (other than possibly plummeting to their death).

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

How about a carpet that had been in the castle for 50 years? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

No, 50 years most likely wouldn't be enough time. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Is this like the "Ship of Theseus?" 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Yes

source

Quote

Snipexe [PENDING REVIEW]

On Roshar, if there was an AI would it appear as a soul or a bead? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In Shadesmar assuming there is an AI, would it appear as the soul of an object or a being? Most likely as a being, depending on various things going on.

source

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos, always typos

[Ixthos he/him]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Thanks :-) I'll give a more full response later, but thanks for the link! I need to gather my thoughts a bit before responding.

[Calderis he/him]

Alright, I waited a while to respond to this thread, because I didn't quite understand why I disagreed, but knew that I did. After a bit of thought, I have one main issue. 

Identity. 

Metalminds, awakened objects, anything of the sort, all have an Identity that is keyed to their creator. The Investiture is not an entity of its own, but an extension of someone else. That's why the breath in Awakened objects can be retrieved, but the breath in a Lifeless can't. 

For an awakened object, a command is imprinted on the breath, and it works to fulfill that command, but it is not a sentient object. It's just a simulacrum.

In the event that anything of this sort became "sprenlike" it should develop an Identity of its own, right up to the point that metalminds used to create it wouldn't be fully accessible to it... 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If someone were to create a human shape, with full articulations, made out of the four Feruchemical Spiritual metals and copper and do like a full dump into them, would it be able to... I mean, Investiture attains sapience on its own. If those were mixed with the memories in the copper would it be able to effectively become [an] android of the person who created it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So we got a couple of issues you have to overcome in creating this. Number one, the memories are not going to attune to the Investiture itself, they're going to be attuned to you. The Investiture as it attains sapience is gonna create its own Identity, which is then going to be a mismatch for those memories. So you would have to find a way to get those memories to work for that creation.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

It wouldn't tie with the Identity that was *inaudible* aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, it would not. The other thing you were getting at there though, is that just Investing it alone, you would have to leave it alone for a long time, naturally, for it to start developing anything. And so we're looking at thousands of years, probably. There are ways to speed that process along, but just doing that and leaving it, it's gonna take a while.

source

So no, I don't think that any of these things are akin to spren. 

[Ixthos he/him]

@Calderis What about Nightblood the robot spren? Or someone with a hemalurgic spike, which would increase their investiture with added investiture from another source with its own identity, and would allow them to last longer in the cogntive realm after dying before fading away (I think that is the quote)? Lifeless, which Brandon has said are more self-aware than anyone suspects?

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Ixthos said:

@Calderis What about Nightblood the robot spren? Or someone with a hemalurgic spike, which would increase their investiture with added investiture from another source with its own identity, and would allow them to last longer in the cogntive realm after dying before fading away (I think that is the quote)? Lifeless, which Brandon has said are more self-aware than anyone suspects?

Nightblood, or any other sentient/Sapient awakened object will have been created in a fundamentally different way. It has its own Identity, and is like a spren in that regard. That is very different than a standard Awakened object. 

Lifeless are much closer to this category, in my opinion.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the spikes. Yes they contain Identity, and they also must be placed precisely and permanently anchored in the body as a consequence of that. I'm not sure what that has to do with the current discussion though? 

[Ixthos he/him]

@Calderis Ahhh sorry for the ambiguity. What I was getting at was your issue with items with identity from a source preventing them from becoming independent or associated with a new identity or someone else's identity.

Breaths, hemalurgy, and spren bonds all involve tying investiture with its own identity into something else, and it then becomes a part of that something else, despite still having its own identity. Your argument seems to be that Breaths still retain the identity of the person who used them, even though three of the four types of BioChromatic types either have sentience or can't have their Breaths forcibly removed - which probably means even those which aren't considered sentient actually are, or are sufficiently alive to count. And that quote isn't actually addressing my argument for metalminds - more on that at the end of this post.

 

Nightblood also drains Breath from someone, which is something that shouldn't be possible. I think that much like with the rules of Allomancy, that you can't push on someone else's metals if they are in the person's body, or sense through copper. I think that enough Breaths - and that is a vague term, but my point remains, as the more Breaths needed, the more complex the command, the more complex and invested the Awakened object. Indeed, for the Breaths example, I think what I am proposing is the exact same thing as what has been shown: enough Breaths in an object, and then given a complex command, resulted in something aware. The only question than is does it have to be in metal? Basically, Nightblood, Lifeless, and to a lesser extent Returned, are all BioChromatic manifestations with unique prescences in the cognitive realm, and account for three of the four types of Awakened types, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the a complex command with a large amount of Breaths would cause something which can still have the Breath removed from it to begin to appear more like a non-sapient spren in the cognitive realm than like a non-invested piece of material, up to and including becoming fully sapient, and thus like Nightblood, and immune to having its Breath removed.

... Actually, do you know of any quote from Brandon which says Nightblood can't have his Breath removed? I mean, aside form the fact that the person who made it is dead? Also, when passing Breaths to someone, what makes the Breath lose the identity of the person passing it, as that same command is also used to simply place Breath into an item? The fact that the person targeted already has an identity?

 

Spikes have the identity of the person they came from, yet can become part of someone else. Spren also have a seperate identity to the knight, but they are bonded - something I want to talk about later is the idea of Identity being a type of connection (basically, identity and connection are both links, just in different directions, with identity touching things that are you, and connection touching things that are related to you). I think that identity can become connection if the item which is tied to the identity becomes sentient - and the recent chart of Hemalurgy supports that, with a spike that can steal both connection and identity. I think connection and identity can be interchanged - identity a line "down", everything in the column a part of the person, and connection a line "across", everything it touches is something related to the person. A metalmind could be seen to be part of the person, and then become something distinct yet related. A spren bonded to a person ties the two of them together. Having a seperate identity does not mean you can't become part of something else's identity, and coming from someone elses identity doesn't mean you can't gain your own.

 

Also, my point wasn't that an awakened object or metalmind would become a sapient spren, any more than stick is sapient, but rather would gain a degree of sentience, a capacity to communicate to a cogintive traveller or other entity things about itself, including arguing with them or being persuaded to perform a different task, or able to have memory and interact with cognitive objects - i.e. more like a Santhid than like Syl, or like a robot Santhid, or like a Lifeless. Something that looks like a lifeform, and can act like a lifeform, but might not actually be as organic in its mind as a lifeform, though spren are also potentially rigid in their thinking. The Awakened object, and to a lesser extent a metalmind having a type of mind, but bot a full mind, being a full cognitive creature like a machine. Basically, and this is the reason I listed the types of spren initially, I think that Breaths, and metal minds have a more promonent presence in the cogntivie realm than the material they were made from originally had, and especially for Breaths, that can manifest as a cognitive entity, with Nightblood, explicitly called a robot spren, and Lifeless, which Brandon has said are more aware than people think, as the supports for that claim.

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Nightblood also drains Breath from someone, which is something that shouldn't be possible

Your overcomplicating something that is actually simple, in my opinion. 

Nightblood, Larkin, and Leechers can all drain breath that is Identity locked. But not in a usable form. The Breaths are either consumed, or if retained (Nightblood) altered In a way that they are no longer accessible for Awakening. 

For an awakened object to respond to the "your breath to mine" command, it is going to be Identity free. 

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Actually, do you know of any quote from Brandon which says Nightblood can't have his Breath removed? I mean, aside form the fact that the person who made it is dead? Also, when passing Breaths to someone, what makes the Breath lose the identity of the person passing it, as that same command is also used to simply place Breath into an item? The fact that the person targeted already has an identity?

Nightblood can't even give his Breath away. There's no way it's retrievable. 

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Questioner

Nightblood, being a sentient object, could he give away his Breath? 

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, Nightblood...could not give away his Breath. It's a good question. It's because that Breath is making him...like something weird has happened to him where the metal is Invested almost to a Hemalurgic or Feruchemical way, right? Like it's no longer just an object with a bunch of Breath. It's become permeating the whole thing. So it's more like the soul of a person, the part of the Breath they can't give away. Like when you give away your Breath, you retain some of your Investiture, you can't give that part away. It's the same thing. 

Questioner

Cuz I imagine it would be kind of like a Lifeless where that Breath is probably stuck so close that it would not be removable by an Awakener at least.?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, Yep. It's stuck in there, yep. I mean there are ways to get the Investiture out, but it's not the simple "We give it away" thing. Yeah, he can't just give it away. 

Questioner

<inaudible> corrupted or? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is part of it, that is part of what that means. 

source

All in all, I think that you are trying to lump things together here that are not the same phenomenon. 

Spikes do contain the Identity of the victim (I refuse to call it a "donor" unless it was voluntary). As I said in my previous post, I think this is precisely why bind points are important and the spike must remain in. The piece of Spiritweb must remain anchored in place, and be placed precisely. I think this is entirely because that piece has a foreign Identity which would be rejected outright if it weren't anchored in place, and as such it must be placed perfectly just to function as intended. 

The Nahel bond is not one thing becoming part of another. It is a symbiotic bond. There should be an Identity merger, but it's on both parts. Less a change of one to fit another, and more that two differing Identities intermingle and both become available to each other. It is a merger of two souls, not one taking over another. 

And Breath... Breath has no Identity of its own. At least not beyond that of any inanimate thing. It's built entirely to rekey itself as its passed along. If what it is given to is, or was, a sentient or sapient being then the breath keys itself to that thing. If it is placed in, or used to animate, an object it retains the last imprint and can be recalled. 

Of Course there is a Cognitive part of to Awakening. That's what a Command is. A Cognitive program. But I think it's just that. A program. Just as a computer program isn't truly intelligent, an awakened object is not. It can do exactly what it has been programed (commanded) to do. Nothing more, nothing less. The better the program, the more intelligent it seems. 

For a sentient/sapient object, the process for Awakening may be similar, but I think the underlying mechanics are very very different. In standard awakening, your just telling an object to move in certain ways under certain parameters. With a Type IV, you creating an actual soul and mind that function independently and are capable of growth. For the record, I think that this is exactly what happens with Lifeless as well. It's just much much easier in a once living host, and the small amount of Investiture leaves them somewhat stunted (even if they are more intelligent than people give them credit for). 

(Side tangent here: as much as Vasher placed them as a part of Awakening, the direct involvement of Endowment, the endowment of Sliver, and the fact that the Returned are actually the CS of a person and not a creation of Breath makes me think that they should not actually be included as a part of Awakening. They are something completely unto themselves. Awakening is a relatively young art, and as much as Vasher and the scholars knew, they are still capable of mistakes. They fit their understanding of the Returned into the system as they saw it... But I think they got this part wrong.)

[Quantus he/him]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Spikes do contain the Identity of the victim (I refuse to call it a "donor" unless it was voluntary).

Excellent point, Im a little ashamed that I didnt key to the distinction earlier.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

As I said in my previous post, I think this is precisely why bind points are important and the spike must remain in. The piece of Spiritweb must remain anchored in place, and be placed precisely. I think this is entirely because that piece has a foreign Identity which would be rejected outright if it weren't anchored in place, and as such it must be placed perfectly just to function as intended. 

If the Victim were a Ferring filling Identity to make an unkeyed spike, how do you see this changing their functional behavior? You touched on this in your Medallion creation Write-up, but Im still struggling to wrap my head around that piece.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Nahel bond is not one thing becoming part of another. It is a symbiotic bond. There should be an Identity merger, but it's on both parts. Less a change of one to fit another, and more that two differing Identities intermingle and both become available to each other. It is a merger of two souls, not one taking over another. 

And Breath... Breath has no Identity of its own. At least not beyond that of any inanimate thing. It's built entirely to rekey itself as its passed along. If what it is given to is, or was, a sentient or sapient being then the breath keys itself to that thing. If it is placed in, or used to animate, an object it retains the last imprint and can be recalled. 

Of Course there is a Cognitive part of to Awakening. That's what a Command is. A Cognitive program. But I think it's just that. A program. Just as a computer program isn't truly intelligent, an awakened object is not. It can do exactly what it has been programed (commanded) to do. Nothing more, nothing less. The better the program, the more intelligent it seems. 

For a sentient/sapient object, the process for Awakening may be similar, but I think the underlying mechanics are very very different. In standard awakening, your just telling an object to move in certain ways under certain parameters. With a Type IV, you creating an actual soul and mind that function independently and are capable of growth. For the record, I think that this is exactly what happens with Lifeless as well. It's just much much easier in a once living host, and the small amount of Investiture leaves them somewhat stunted (even if they are more intelligent than people give them credit for). 

(Side tangent here: as much as Vasher placed them as a part of Awakening, the direct involvement of Endowment, the endowment of Sliver, and the fact that the Returned are actually the CS of a person and not a creation of Breath makes me think that they should not actually be included as a part of Awakening. They are something completely unto themselves. Awakening is a relatively young art, and as much as Vasher and the scholars knew, they are still capable of mistakes. They fit their understanding of the Returned into the system as they saw it... But I think they got this part wrong.)

I agree with all of this, and think a lot of it comes down to the nature of Breaths being specifically to grant a faux-spiritweb to objects, being Investiture that was (for lack of a better term) grown by permeating an existing Nalthian's spiritweb, and is why Awakened things tend to manifest with Human traits (grasping things shape themselves as hands, etc). Though that could always be more of a result of the functional image that comes with Awakener's Command.  For what it's worth, I tend to see Harmonium as working in a very similar way, in that it takes an Imprint the activating Misting's web and then model's itself into a more temporary Spiritweb that can act as an allomatic emitter independent of the rest of the required web pieces and/or anchoring Physical form. 

 

In the case of Lifeless, evidence suggests that they'd retain more that usual of their past self if they receive their own original Breathe back.  If it were returned to them by somebody with Blanked Identity (and presumably a more specific Command) do you think you'd be able to get a more functioning sentience?  At least to the limits of whatever effect the loss of "soul" that goes Beyond is, anyway.

 

Also, that WOB you posted mentions seems to imply that while it's not simple, there are ways to get Investiture out of Nightblood, and I noticed in OB that Szeth got a temporary sensory increase similar to Heightenings when he drew Nightblood. Any thoughts on what was happening there? 

 

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

If the Victim were a Ferring filling Identity to make an unkeyed spike, how do you see this changing their functional behavior? You touched on this in your Medallion creation Write-up, but Im still struggling to wrap my head around that piece.

For a spike being placed, not much. The anchoring mechanism is going to make it function pretty much the same by being forced into a specific portion of the spiritweb. I just don't think it would be necessary any longer, and when combined with Connection shenanigans allows for medallions. 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

In the case of Lifeless, evidence suggests that they'd retain more that usual of their past self if they receive their own original Breathe back.  If it were returned to them by somebody with Blanked Identity (and presumably a more specific Command) do you think you'd be able to get a more functioning sentience?  At least to the limits of whatever effect the loss of "soul" that goes Beyond is, anyway.

I assume you're referring to Clod here, and while I agree, I think that in most cases they would need to die with their Breath and be Awakened before it can disapate. If it were a ferring dumbing Identity, I think they'd have to forego the o e breath lifeless command, because I think clod has more to do ith the amount of Breath that Arsteel died with that was keyed to him than just that it was keyed to him. Vasher beat him in the same manner as Denth. 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Also, that WOB you posted mentions seems to imply that while it's not simple, there are ways to get Investiture out of Nightblood, and I noticed in OB that Szeth got a temporary sensory increase similar to Heightenings when he drew Nightblood. Any thoughts on what was happening there? 

I'm not sure how you'd get Investiture out of Nightblood, or even why you'd want to, but I don't think it's necessarily like the Heightenings. He has his own weird color aura, and being inside that is going to have some of the effects that I think Szeth perceives, and additionally we know that to some extent Nightblood enhances his wielder. There's really no other way to explain shoving a blunt aluminum sheath through your own chest. 

[Ixthos he/him]

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you - been rather busy, and also need to address these points in a formal manner.

 

On 1/7/2019 at 6:32 PM, Calderis said:

Your overcomplicating something that is actually simple, in my opinion. 

Nightblood, Larkin, and Leechers can all drain breath that is Identity locked. But not in a usable form. The Breaths are either consumed, or if retained (Nightblood) altered In a way that they are no longer accessible for Awakening. 

For an awakened object to respond to the "your breath to mine" command, it is going to be Identity free. 

Nightblood can't even give his Breath away. There's no way it's retrievable. 

All in all, I think that you are trying to lump things together here that are not the same phenomenon. 

That is my point - they are different things, all using identity or associated with investiture, but not interfering with it. Breath or metalminds having identity doesn't mean it prevents them gaining a new identity. And the main point was that they characters have assumptions, but they are shown to be wrong - just because they don't think Breath can be taken doesn't mean it can't. Also, that quote notes that you can get the Breath back out of Nightblood, it just can't give it.

Investiture can be drained by different methods, but my point with Nightblood is it can drain things even though it was from Endowment, and Azure's sword can likewise drain investiture - the rules are not what the characters think.

 

Quote

Spikes do contain the Identity of the victim (I refuse to call it a "donor" unless it was voluntary). As I said in my previous post, I think this is precisely why bind points are important and the spike must remain in. The piece of Spiritweb must remain anchored in place, and be placed precisely. I think this is entirely because that piece has a foreign Identity which would be rejected outright if it weren't anchored in place, and as such it must be placed perfectly just to function as intended. 

Good - I hate the term donor for a spike's source. I see it less like identity being an issue and more like protein folding - after all, the placement is not just about identity, but also the power granted and how it can attaches, and interacts with the person who gets a spike. Different spikes steal different attributes, but the place for Feruchemical healing is not the same as the place for Allomantic tin. The identity is irrelevant - all spikes get around it, but if you spikes Rashek for his human strength, you wouldn't place it in the same place for his Feruchemy, even though the identity is the same.

 

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The Nahel bond is not one thing becoming part of another. It is a symbiotic bond. There should be an Identity merger, but it's on both parts. Less a change of one to fit another, and more that two differing Identities intermingle and both become available to each other. It is a merger of two souls, not one taking over another. 

I don't see the issue with this. My point is that it is two identities interacting without issue. It was an example of identity not being a barrier for sharing investiture.

 

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And Breath... Breath has no Identity of its own. At least not beyond that of any inanimate thing. It's built entirely to rekey itself as its passed along. If what it is given to is, or was, a sentient or sapient being then the breath keys itself to that thing. If it is placed in, or used to animate, an object it retains the last imprint and can be recalled. 

Giving Breath an identity seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I repeat my point from before, that identity and connection are related, and one can become the other, with identity being a line down, and connection a line across. I agree Breath can have identity quickly added or quickly removed, but that just reinforces that identity for Breath is not an issue with something gaining a mind, that it can be easily discarded from Breath, or transformed into connection - and I repeat part of my post later down, that the more Breaths something has - and more Breaths are required for more complex commands - can lead to a stronger Cognitive presence. I elaborate more on how much Awakening uses the cognitive realm at the end of this post.

 

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Of Course there is a Cognitive part of to Awakening. That's what a Command is. A Cognitive program. But I think it's just that. A program. Just as a computer program isn't truly intelligent, an awakened object is not. It can do exactly what it has been programed (commanded) to do. Nothing more, nothing less. The better the program, the more intelligent it seems. 

For a sentient/sapient object, the process for Awakening may be similar, but I think the underlying mechanics are very very different. In standard awakening, your just telling an object to move in certain ways under certain parameters. With a Type IV, you creating an actual soul and mind that function independently and are capable of growth. For the record, I think that this is exactly what happens with Lifeless as well. It's just much much easier in a once living host, and the small amount of Investiture leaves them somewhat stunted (even if they are more intelligent than people give them credit for). 

I think you need to look more into programming - there are entire fields of engineering involving making code able to self-modify, from the value of constants used to the actual commands implemented - as an example, look up back propagation in Neural networks, where weighted values change to train the network, and many more complex examples which actually change the instructions executed. And again, Nightblood is still an Awakened object and is growing, but Vashar isn't letting himself see it, and it is very slow. My initial post is about how a sufficiently complex command and enough Breath would make something into a cognitive entity - this is exactly my point, it is just that Type IV's are able to fully manifest as something, rather than normal Awakening just letting something simply able to sense the cognitive realm, but potentially interact with it as well, or simply appear as a life in it. To quote my first post: "A rope invested with a few breaths might manifest in the Cognitive realm - either on Nalthis or where ever else it could be produced - would begin to appear less like a "glass bead" (or whatever the local equivalent is) and more as an organism in the Cognitive realm, either aware of the Cognitive realm like a spren / spren not fully in the physical realm, or even the flame that corresponds to life in the physical. Lifeless, with only a single needed breath, might also appear as a flame. The more breaths involved in something, or the more organic it was, the more the Cognitive component would transform, and so anything Awakened would begin to appear as a native creature of the Cognitive realm, or at least more alive."

 

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(Side tangent here: as much as Vasher placed them as a part of Awakening, the direct involvement of Endowment, the endowment of Sliver, and the fact that the Returned are actually the CS of a person and not a creation of Breath makes me think that they should not actually be included as a part of Awakening. They are something completely unto themselves. Awakening is a relatively young art, and as much as Vasher and the scholars knew, they are still capable of mistakes. They fit their understanding of the Returned into the system as they saw it... But I think they got this part wrong.)

I fully agree with this statement, and it a point that needs to be made - that the characters can make mistakes, and apply rules incorrectly. This is part of my argument as well.

 

Lets consider Nightblood to be an investiture black hole - something in how it was made made it able to consume investiture - this seems to be something common to Type IV's, as Azure's blade shows, and might work on similar principles to Larken or Chromium, or might be completely unrelated. What is shown is Nightblood consumes it more rapidly, and completely, than the others do. But if Nightblood is an investiture black hole, it might be that one can still make an investiture neutron star. Azure's blade seems to be one. Also, Azure's blade's interactions with the Honourspren also shows that it has a mind more complex than what one would typically associate with non-aware investiture - it scanned it and displayed some traits of a mind. Therefore, I argue it is a mind, and thus a creature or life in the cognitive realm. And any identity the Breath might have had (if we assume Breath automatically associates itself with the identity of whatever it is placed in, and if that thing has no identity it uses its connection to the person placing it as a substitute, identity and connection can be changed from one to the other).

 

And again, my point is further reinforced by Nightblood, which - like Azure's blade - proves that an Awakened object can become the equivalent of a spren - I repeat this point because you didn't seem to address it. It is explicitly called a robot spren, and is - unless there is a statement otherwise - something that can be repeated with Awakening normally. Perhaps Nightblood is a mixture of different systems working together, but I repeat, if Nightblood is an investiture. An artificial organism in the cognitive realm is still a creature, whether or not it is fully alive. Just like Vashar's little straw men.

 

Lets us focus in on them then. Two questions, which I will answer, and I would like to know how you see this. The first is how did Vashar's little men know how to find keys if they didn't have any eyes in the physical world, let alone anything given a command to act on the environment given certain conditions? The second is, what do you think would happen is someone tried to soulcast a rope which had been given the command to search out keys (like the straw Vashar gave the command to) if they are blue, and if they are blue to go around a building and try them in every lock, opening it if it works, and then return to the person who Awakened it and coil around there arm the number of times corresponding to the floor the door it openned is on?

 

The answer to the first question is, I think, it senses through the Cognitive realm, or the cognitive and spiritual. This implies it has a capacity to sense and interact with Cognitive entities. The second, is the rope wouldn't just say "I am a rope", but rather "I am a rope which is to seek out blue keys, test them on doors, and report back which door a key opened."

 

So, in conclusion:

• Awakening an object so that it can have investiture removed from it is the exception, not the rule, likely due to identity and connection being interchangeable
• Nightblood is an investiture black hole, but Azure's blade could be an investiture neutron star - similar properties, but distinct
• Azure's blade reinforced the idea of type IV's as having minds
• Awakened objects seem to be able to sense using the Cognitive realm - which seems to me to be a far more plausible idea than them making the equivalent of eyes to see the physical realm
• An Awakened object has a more complex identity than a non-Awakened object, and likely would be able to communicate this fact
• ... technically, I didn't mention this in the main part of this, but metal minds are called metal minds because they have a stronger presence in the cognitive realm - Brandon has so far been very consistent in names being significant to the magic systems (e.g. allomancy using metal to see the future, hemalurgy using blood and metal to make a new substance, etc.)

[Calderis he/him]

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Investiture can be drained by different methods, but my point with Nightblood is it can drain things even though it was from Endowment, and Azure's sword can likewise drain investiture - the rules are not what the characters think.

As to Nightblood... It's not only of Endowment. 

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

source

As to Azure's blade... It kills differently than a sprenblade, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it drains anything. 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Good - I hate the term donor for a spike's source. I see it less like identity being an issue and more like protein folding - after all, the placement is not just about identity, but also the power granted and how it can attaches, and interacts with the person who gets a spike. Different spikes steal different attributes, but the place for Feruchemical healing is not the same as the place for Allomantic tin. The identity is irrelevant - all spikes get around it, but if you spikes Rashek for his human strength, you wouldn't place it in the same place for his Feruchemy, even though the identity is the same.

Yes, the placement has everything to do with the fact that the piece of spiritweb is contained in the spike and as such must be placed in the correct position to integrate properly... But I think that the anchoring is both what circumvent rejection due to Identity conflict, and what makes that placement need to be so precise. As I've stated at length, if you remove the Identity conflict and create an alternate means of Connecting the spiritweb to the piece, I think this issue dissappears and is how medallions function. 

 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Giving Breath an identity seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I repeat my point from before, that identity and connection are related, and one can become the other, with identity being a line down, and connection a line across. I agree Breath can have identity quickly added or quickly removed, but that just reinforces that identity for Breath is not an issue with something gaining a mind, that it can be easily discarded from Breath, or transformed into connection - and I repeat part of my post later down, that the more Breaths something has - and more Breaths are required for more complex commands - can lead to a stronger Cognitive presence. I elaborate more on how much Awakening uses the cognitive realm at the end of this post.

I absolutely disagree as far as Identity and Connection are concerned. They are "related" jn that their both Spiritual functions but one cannot become the other. They are distinct. 

All evidence in books shows us that Identity is a marker that suffused Investiture that says "this is me/mine."

Connection on the other hand isn't Investiture in itself. It's a Spiritual force that acts upon Investiture similar to Gravity in the Physical. 

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Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

source

Identity can create Connection, such as between a Feruchemists and their metalmind. Likewise, Connection can effect Identity such as with the Nahel bond, but they do not become each other. 

And Breath gains the Identity of whoever holds it and is precisely why it can be retrieved. It is not an exception. 

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Questioner

What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity.

Footnote: followed-up by this
source

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Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

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Breath is specifically built to rekey itself when passed between people. 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I think you need to look more into programming

Perhaps... But self altering code and a truly Sapient AI are two vastly different things. I don't think this is any different. 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Also, Azure's blade's interactions with the Honourspren also shows that it has a mind more complex than what one would typically associate with non-aware investiture - it scanned it and displayed some traits of a mind. Therefore, I argue it is a mind, and thus a creature or life in the cognitive realm. And any identity the Breath might have had (if we assume Breath automatically associates itself with the identity of whatever it is placed in, and if that thing has no identity it uses its connection to the person placing it as a substitute, identity and connection can be changed from one to the other).

Azure's blade is a type IV. It's the AI equivalent. It's what Nightblood should have been if Ruin's Investiture (in my opinion) hadn't got thrown into the mix. 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

And again, my point is further reinforced by Nightblood, which - like Azure's blade - proves that an Awakened object can become the equivalent of a spren - I repeat this point because you didn't seem to address it. It is explicitly called a robot spren, and is - unless there is a statement otherwise - something that can be repeated with Awakening normally. Perhaps Nightblood is a mixture of different systems working together, but I repeat, if Nightblood is an investiture. An artificial organism in the cognitive realm is still a creature, whether or not it is fully alive. Just like Vashar's little straw men.

It is like a Spren, I didn't address it because I had no qualms with that. I didn't say it was a different system, just a different mechanism than awakening an object. It is doing to an object wat is normally done to a corpse. Same system, different mechanic. 

Creating an entity like Nightblood or Azure's blade is less like Awakening an object in the Spiritual aspect than it is like having a child. Just like creating sentient machine would be. 

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DrogaKrolow

Sentient machines, artificial intelligence. Would they be able to use Investiture? Or not? How would that work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, define "use Investiture". Like, there's a lot of different ways to quote-unquote use Investiture.

DrogaKrolow

OK, I don't mean the medallions but like if I go and peek into the Spiritual Realm and I look at the machine, do I see Investiture inside it? The Connections to the Shards and so on?

Brandon Sanderson

Chances are good that you will. But I have to add a big asterisk to that, it's gonna depend on so many factors. But consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture. And creating a machine in many ways cosmerelogically is not that different from creating a child.

DrogaKrolow

Okay... Interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I'll just leave it there.

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13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The first is how did Vashar's little men know how to find keys if they didn't have any eyes in the physical world, let alone anything given a command to act on the environment given certain conditions?

The same way any awakened object does. The same way that life sense grants the ability to sense living things nearby without having to look at them. It may very well be Cognitive, and that still has no bearing on that object as a living, thinking, Cognitive flame. 

The straw man is easily the most complicated command given in the book, and learning about Awakening further into the book and looking back that should be apparent. The words of the command are not the most important part. The visualization is. It was shown what to do in the command Vasher imprinted onto the Breath when speaking the command. Everything it was capable he was envisioning. 

13 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The second is, what do you think would happen is someone tried to soulcast a rope which had been given the command to search out keys (like the straw Vashar gave the command to) if they are blue, and if they are blue to go around a building and try them in every lock, opening it if it works, and then return to the person who Awakened it and coil around there arm the number of times corresponding to the floor the door it openned is on?

I think it would function like any other rope with a proportionate level of Investiture based resistance. That's it. 

14 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Awakening an object so that it can have investiture removed from it is the exception, not the rule, likely due to identity and connection being interchangeable

Very much disagree. 

14 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Nightblood is an investiture black hole, but Azure's blade could be an investiture neutron star - similar properties, but distinct

Similar methods of creation, with vastly different circumstances that turned Nightblood into something that should never have existed in the first place. 

14 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Azure's blade reinforced the idea of type IV's as having minds

This was never in question. That's what a type IV is. 

14 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Awakened objects seem to be able to sense using the Cognitive realm - which seems to me to be a far more plausible idea than them making the equivalent of eyes to see the physical realm

Not sure where this came from. I have no issue here. Investiture functioning without eyes is normal.

14 hours ago, Ixthos said:

An Awakened object has a more complex identity than a non-Awakened object, and likely would be able to communicate this fact

Disagree. The object, and the Investiture are two separate things in an awakened object in my opinion. The object is completely unchanged, the Investiture just acts like a musculoskeletal system to move it. 

 

[Ixthos he/him]

On 1/12/2019 at 6:25 AM, Calderis said:

As to Nightblood... It's not only of Endowment. 

As to Azure's blade... It kills differently than a sprenblade, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it drains anything. 

The only issue is it isn't actually clear what the person meant. Was Nightblood made using part of Ruin, specifically? Was Nightblood made using Endowment, but the Ruin present in the blade has come from consuming things which have Ruin in them? It isn't clear. But either way, Nightblood was still made with Awakening, and Allomancy still is Preservation's magic even when being fuelled by Ruin's metal.

Even if we rule out Nightblood, it drains colour, and colour is significant on Roshar for gems, but on Nalthis it is the fuel for Awakening, and also drained by Nightblood as a byproduct of consuming its host, which is likely ties to its origins with Endowment.

 

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Yes, the placement has everything to do with the fact that the piece of spiritweb is contained in the spike and as such must be placed in the correct position to integrate properly... But I think that the anchoring is both what circumvent rejection due to Identity conflict, and what makes that placement need to be so precise. As I've stated at length, if you remove the Identity conflict and create an alternate means of Connecting the spiritweb to the piece, I think this issue dissappears and is how medallions function. 

I see it less as about the identity, and more along making sure there is a control point it can mount onto - it you are mounting something onto a structure, you need to do so at a point which can take the weight, and allow it to perform its function - identity is irrelevant for that part, only what the part does - its like wiring something into an existing power supply and control system - you have a limited length of cable, so you mount it at or close to a point where you can connect it in. Or if performing surgery, you need to place an organ into a spot where it would fit - i.e. you place a replacement kidney where the kidney's go.

Incidentally, interesting topic :-) I don't know if I fully agree with it, but I like where you are going with it.

 

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I absolutely disagree as far as Identity and Connection are concerned. They are "related" jn that their both Spiritual functions but one cannot become the other. They are distinct. 

All evidence in books shows us that Identity is a marker that suffused Investiture that says "this is me/mine."

Connection on the other hand isn't Investiture in itself. It's a Spiritual force that acts upon Investiture similar to Gravity in the Physical. 

Identity can create Connection, such as between a Feruchemists and their metalmind. Likewise, Connection can effect Identity such as with the Nahel bond, but they do not become each other. 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this for now at least - I would like to make a topic latter on which will address what I think identity is - namely, the connection that connects across realms, and so binds the atoms of the physical to the cognitive component, giving them a single reflection, and ties them to the connections to other things. I will say I think identity and connection are the same in that sight and hearing are the same - both can be stored in a tin mind - or water to drink and food to eat are the same, as those can be stored. I think they are both connections, but like the symbol grounding problem, how do you define something as you without a distinct and unique connection to it, a line that says "everything this line touches is me". A unique type of connection, and something which can be stolen from the same spike that steals connection.

 

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And Breath gains the Identity of whoever holds it and is precisely why it can be retrieved. It is not an exception. 

Breath is specifically built to rekey itself when passed between people. 

I didn't say it isn't keyed, only that a single type of use of Breath for Awakening or related actions keeps the identity of the person who placed it on the Breath, and all the others make it lose that. And my main point was that Breath can easily gain or lose that keying.

 

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Azure's blade is a type IV. It's the AI equivalent. It's what Nightblood should have been if Ruin's Investiture (in my opinion) hadn't got thrown into the mix. 

It is like a Spren, I didn't address it because I had no qualms with that. I didn't say it was a different system, just a different mechanism than awakening an object. It is doing to an object wat is normally done to a corpse. Same system, different mechanic. 

Creating an entity like Nightblood or Azure's blade is less like Awakening an object in the Spiritual aspect than it is like having a child. Just like creating sentient machine would be.

And my point is that it is still using those same mechanisms - the only change is the complexity of the mind and spiritual component, not the cognitive "body" it would have, any more than Syl has a more complex body than a Santhid, but clearly has a more complex mind and range of things she can think and do.

 

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The same way any awakened object does. The same way that life sense grants the ability to sense living things nearby without having to look at them. It may very well be Cognitive, and that still has no bearing on that object as a living, thinking, Cognitive flame. 

The straw man is easily the most complicated command given in the book, and learning about Awakening further into the book and looking back that should be apparent. The words of the command are not the most important part. The visualization is. It was shown what to do in the command Vasher imprinted onto the Breath when speaking the command. Everything it was capable he was envisioning. 

I think it would function like any other rope with a proportionate level of Investiture based resistance. That's it. 

My point was not that it becomes a flame - that was originally for Lifeless - but that it becomes something which can sense and interact with the Cognitive realm - basically, you agree that Breath makes something into a creature in the cognitive realm, because it can sense the cognitive realm, which a typical object can't do. 

Also, you agree - the straw man is a complex command, and Vashar's skill and use of part of his body let him make it with fewer breaths than it needed - therefore, a complex command and a lot of Breath made something which could see in the cognitive realm, and thus was something which is creature in the cognitive realm, much like a mobile robot is a creature in the physical world, able to sense and interact with it. This has been the core of my argument.

 

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Very much disagree. 

Which part to you disagree with?

 

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This was never in question. That's what a type IV is. 

Just as you think Returned are not truly part of Awakening, I think that the catagories are more fluid than supposed - there is little difference between Awakened objects, and the mechanism which makes something Awakened as a Lifeless or type IV or lesser type is interchangable - it is just that the command and Breaths present in a typical object are less complex, and so it is like the distinction between a bacteria and a cat - both are alive, but one is more complex and able to perform more complex actions. That Awakening can make something into a fully functional spren for a type IV and Lifeless supports that it can make lesser things - that 2 out of the 3 have this property means the mechanism is part of Awakening.

 

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Not sure where this came from. I have no issue here. Investiture functioning without eyes is normal.

To sense something you need to have a presence there - I can see because my eyes can react to light, hear because of ears that pick up sounds. A regular object doesn't have the capacity to sense in the cognitive realm - the Breath gives it senses, and the ability to sense in the cognitive realm. It really sounds like you are agreeing with me on this - the Breath gives it eyes and ears in another realm, therefore they make the object more a part of that realm.

 

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Disagree. The object, and the Investiture are two separate things in an awakened object in my opinion. The object is completely unchanged, the Investiture just acts like a musculoskeletal system to move it. 

I take it you think a flame in the cognitive realm - the presence of a mind - is distinct from a bead then, and when the flame dies there was already a bead? I see the flame as replacing the bead, and when someone dies the flame becomes a bead, the corpse. Breath when in an object would be that flame, transforming the bead into a flame, or a creature, and thus into something which is more alive, and possibly into a full spren, though artificial. Invested things glow in the cognitive realm - someone with more Breath would glow more brightly than someone without it - where does that glow go when they Awaken something? Into the bead - or whatever it manifests as on different planets - to make it alive, to have a command, and a command is an idea, like a spren. Breath is a part of the soul of those from Nalthis - it would continue to function as a part of the soul in something else.

 

A robot is a creature in the physical world - for several reasons, this is something I believe. Not "alive", not necessarily, but a creature that can sense and interact with it. An Awakened object is just as much a robot in the cognitive realm, and thus has a structure there. Nightblood and Azure's blade are sapient A.I. with powerful actuators and complex sensors, and an Awakened rope is a BEAM robot with a simple motor and an LDR or touch switch. Both are creatures, but one is more readily recognised as a mind.