WindrunnerRadiant he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) (Some Spoilers from Stormlight Archive and Mistborn ahead) I'll start off by saying that the entity comprised of the unity of Rayse and the Shard he holds can best be described as Odium. However, the actual nature of the Shard itself isn't. I believe it would be best to describe it instead as Passion. I have been thinking for a long time that Odium seemed an odd intent for a piece of God. It never made sense to me. Then we get to see Sazed as Harmony and I realized the intention of the being could be different based on who the holder is. For inatance, if the Lord Ruled had obtained Preservation and Ruin, he would likely have been a far more strict balance of intentions whereas Sazed is a balance promoting growth, leaning more toward Preservation. The next hint we had before we even see Odium's name printed in WoK. Vorinism preaches the "Passions" as the source of sin. This coupled with Vorinism being the result of casting aside Odium and taking up Honor as their Almighty serves as an extra piece of evidence to me. My last clue was the Unmade. Most likely Slivers of Odium, they should directly portray aspects of the Shard. However, instead of being entirely hate filled beings as you would expect of Odium's strongest servants, you instead see beings representing different passions. Because they don't represent Odium, they represent the Shared Rayse holds, Passion. *edit* I should have clarified this in my initial posting, this is not a fully fledged theory. It's an idea that's been rumbling around in my head that I would love input on. Edited January 10, 2019 by WindrunnerRadiant 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Quote yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinic. It doesn't fit the pattern. Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] I don't really look as something as Latinic or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually. yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, there's more regular English. Why? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor. yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better." yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Hewould claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is. yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] His own perception of himself, can that influence? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Yes, it can influence. yulerule[PENDING REVIEW] So the Shard's intent can... Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes. source Quote Questioner[PENDING REVIEW] In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less we went around the names more like this is just what it is. And various shards are resisting that, but the others are all like this is what you represent. Billy Todd, Moderator[PENDING REVIEW] Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. Billy Todd, Moderator[PENDING REVIEW] So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Part of him does. Billy Todd, Moderator[PENDING REVIEW] Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Yes. source By these WoBs I think you're trusting what Odium says about himself maybe a little too much. Not only that, but Frost describes Odium in his response to The Letter: Quote He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become. Odium the Shard is Odium. As to whether Rayse is trying to steer it towards being something more than that... maybe? Even when Odium showed Dalinar his true self in that first vision, the core of it was hatred. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Ok, so I have to say I fully disagree with the whole "Passion" argument, even when Rayse tried to make it in OB. It seems to me to be an example of limited perspective, in the same way that Cynics always like to describe themselves as "Realists" because a core part of the Cynic's viewpoint is that they are unwilling or unable to knowledge an optimistic or altruistic side of reality. "Destructive Passion", maybe, based on the Changes it wrought to the Rhythms, or maybe simply Wrath. Though I tend to think English simply lacks a single word to express it properly. That being said, I entirely agree that the nature of the Shards themselves are heavily influenced by their Vessel's perspective and interpretation of it. The Odium shard is "God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context" per Frost. Ruin is not necessarily wanton Destruction so much as the natural Entropy of the physical world, part of the need for things to have both a Beginning and an End, but in Ati's hands it became Dangerous. Harmony could have manifested as Discord in other circumstances. And there are strong arguments to be made the Honor can (and maybe even will) become Unity if the Vessel were to take a more inclusive, Community view of the same concept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) I agree fully with the two previous posters. Odium is not passion, darn it. We have Frost, Syl, and the Stormfather all considering Odium as Hatred. We know that Devotion is a synonym for Love. So if Odium were Passion, it would be Passion minus Love? We know the Passions are a religion with no magical component. We know some of the Unmade and they do not reflect passionate emotions--Moelach piggybacks on death to see the future, Ashertmann removes inhibitions and drives people to self-destruction, Nerghaoul drives people to bloodlust and berserker kill frenzies, Sja-anat infects/corrupts spren, Re-Shephir tries to imitate but is driven by violence. These are all manifestations of hatred, in my mind, not passion. All of the Rhythms that the Stormform and Regalform Listeners can attune to are tinged with hatred--Spite, Ridicule, Derision, etc. That is, the Listeners' normal Rhythms are turned toward hatred and despite. All of these things point toward Odium, not Passion. Edited January 10, 2019 by RShara 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Quote Valhalla[PENDING REVIEW] Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passionin that same italicized way? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Yes they would. Valhalla[PENDING REVIEW] Would any of them nottalk about it that way? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] Yes they would. Excellent, good questions. source Another potentially relevant WoB, though this one is more mysterious than the others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Lets back up a little bit. The OP clearly states that Rayse+the shard=Odium. However if someone else were to get that shard they may be able to steer the shard to Passion instead. (I don't really think love and passion are as intertwined as some seem to think. and more than that Brandon chose Devotion not Love as the name. still linked? YES. but not the same thing.) Many of the Unmade aren't just hateful beings. Re-Shephir for instance: Yes she kills and tries to imitate violence but she also has a driving curiosity to understand humans. one could say she is passionate about it. Little pressed for time but will think of more examples later. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalakaar he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just to add another log to this fire, with no horse in this race; Thaylen's worship the Passions which after Odium's "I'm BatmPassion" has me thinking. (About what I don't know I just woke up after some weird dreams, but thinking I shall.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) RShara above references yet another WoB where Brandon says the Passions are not magical in origin, but do relate to Odium distantly. I don't want to drown the thread in WoBs but its pretty clear to me that Brandon's intent in naming Odium Odium is that the Shard represents Odium, not Passion Edited January 10, 2019 by Kon-Tiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakei Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 I'd say it's more the opposite, that Odium is the shard, the literal "Divine Hatred of God" and with Rayse it's become confused or tainted to feel like it should be passion. Like Rayse took up this shard willingly and surely it was because it was considered the most powerful of the shards, but also because Rayse believed that maybe it could be directed in a sense and that sense could be instead of hatred maybe it could present itself more like a drive, a lust for something a passion as they claim. perhaps Passion is a deep mix of feelings in a sense something hatred definitely could be a part of. I have to imagine that Divine Hatred is a different beast that mortal hatred, but perhaps when the shards were all as one it functioned as a driving force for ambition, honor, preservation survival and ruin etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Inquisitive he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Rayse is Odium. Odium is not Rayse. I guess that's where were disagreeing. I firmly believe that Rayse is Odium not Passion. But I also firmly believe that the shard currently known as Odium is more than just hate. I think all the shards represent more than a single word. If someone else were to get their hands on the shard I believe there are a number of different ways they could interpret the shard. Passion being one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalakaar he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said: RShara above references yet another WoB where Brandon says the Passions are not magical in origin, but do relate to Odium distantly. I don't want to drown the thread in WoBs but its pretty clear to me that Brandon's intent in naming Odium Odium is that the Shard represents Odium, not Passion I did a wordsearch in this thread for "thaylen" but missed Rsharas comment. (Off to hunt that WoB) I'm more curious about Odium's reasoning. Goes back to the old adage, "every villain is the hero of their own story". Odium trying to be Passion is as interesting to me as Odium being Passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 It's this one. Quote Questioner Navani’s emotion fabrial, are those correspondent to the Thaylen Passions in any way? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but the Thaylen Passions would’ve come second to some of this. Questioner So through a cultural filter? Brandon Sanderson Yes. There is no magic to the Thaylen Passions, they are a religion but with no magical component. Sometimes a religion is just a religion. source 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon-Tiki he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) Quote Questioner[PENDING REVIEW] About the Passions. Are they related to Odium, or is there something bigger cosmere-wide? Brandon Sanderson[PENDING REVIEW] They are related to traditions from the past that were Odium-influenced. So, they are technically related to Odium in that sort of method. More in a roundabout way, though. source Quote Botanica We know that the Passions are a religion or a set of superstitions from Thaylenah. But what are the "Passions" exactly? Are they a group of Gods who represent various kinds of "Passion" worshipped by the Thaylen people? If not, are those "Passions" simply a set of ideals believed by the Thaylen people? Are there any connections between Thaylen Passions and Alethi Thrill? Brandon Sanderson The Passions could be called a religion, but there are those among the Thaylens (and to a lesser extent, other peoples) who would argue that it's more a philosophy. Or a companion religion. Much like Shinto and/or Confucianism co-exist in some places with Buddhism. However, there is not formalized theology, despite various thinkers and gurus expressing their thoughts on the matter. The central idea is that Passion equates to Action, and the cosmic belief that wanting something draws it to you. This idea is reinforced by the spren, obviously. Phantine Ah, so basically some people treat it as a fundamental way of life, and some people just treat it as The Secret? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you can see it as a Rosharan version of the Law of Attraction, though some people have taken it further into a more religious fundamental. source @Dalakaar Honestly at this point we should just copy-paste the entirety of what comes up when you search the words "odium" and "passion" in the Arcanum Edited January 10, 2019 by Kon-Tiki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalakaar he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said: @Dalakaar Honestly at this point we should just copy-paste the entirety of what comes up when you search the words "odium" and "passion" in the Arcanum Heh. Also a talented artist should conceptualize that whole "drowning in WoBs" thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant he/him Posted January 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 I want to thank everyone for their input. I don't have anyone outside this forum to share my thoughts with so this is where I get my outside input to help clarify my ideas. THIS IS NOT A THEORY. I should have clarified that in my initial post. It's a thought I have had that I would like input on. I don't think Rayse is anything besides Odium. Whatever he may claim or portray himself as, he is too hate filled. As far as quotes from individuals in the books, I find them too unreliable. We are misdirected by honest but flawed points of view too often by characters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixthos he/him Posted January 14, 2019 Report Share Posted January 14, 2019 To note: Passion can also mean suffering, and suffering can either be a source of love or hate, or be caused by love or hate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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