If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[marianmi]

wow such a long thread with some good points...

let me add a few of my own

 

1. 

Quote

If all it took was urgency, then every shardbearer in battle would have summoned them under the limit numerous times.

No, they instinctively expect the blade after 10 hb, so they won't have summoned them under 10. Just like Shallan summoned Pattern after 10 hb even as a KR.

2.

As I see, spren are cognitive beings, but they would need a spiritual aspect as well. They don't have a physical aspect tho` - some spren have a reflection on physical when strong emotion is present. To form a Nahel bond, an intelligent spren needs to move its body from cognitive to physical, process in which they "lose their minds" - and they get some of that back after the nahel bond is formed. I see this as Nahel bond bridging physical to spiritual - when travelling to physical, the spren lose their connection to spiritual, and they piggy-back on the surgebinder for a connection to their own spiritual aspect. The stronger the bond, the higher the "bandwidth" the spren has to the spiritual, the more "whole" they become, the more powerful the KR becomes. Through the Nahel bond, stormlight goes (back) to the spiritual and surges are expressed in the physical (as an effect of what happens in the spiritual?).

When being struck by a shardblade, people die because their spiritual connection is severed. Dead spren have their eyes scratched out - so I think it's then pretty clear that Deadeyes have lost their spiritual connection. They are not dead as humans die because they don't have a physical "body" - their body somehow got back to cognitive. They can't provide surges anymore, since those need a spiritual connection. They also don't consume stormlight, since that is supposed to go to the spiritual. But they do travel from cognitive to physical and back. KR blades manifest instantly because the spren already are in the physical realm. Dead blades need to cross realms. They can exist in the physical as shardblades, or in the cognitive as Deadeyes, but in both states they are missing the spiritual connection. They have no "soul". They can create a connection to the soul of the blade owner through the gemstone tho`.

Thus, in order to get a dead spren/blade back, it would need to have its spiritual connection re-established. This could be done the KR they originally bonded, but I think it's impossible to be done with a new owner. 

a. Doing it without external influence is as possible as getting the original KR resurrected. So we won't get the "spren" in cognitive back.

b. Doing it with external influence, by Adolin only, also seems impossible to me. To echo what others have said, I also believe Dalinar is required for access the spiritual realm, to find Adolin's and Maya's "souls" (like we've seen he found Evi's) and create the connection/bond. Also probably this is possible only if both "souls" "want" this (he can't force the bond), and Dalinar would need to touch both. (EDIT: or maybe just another KR is required, not a Bondsmith, as we've seen that a KR touching someone with a dead blade would "connect" them? In any case, from all KR, Dalinar is the one best manipulating the spiritual...)

c. In theory, a God could resurrect a dead spren easily, destroying the connection to the owner (via the gemstone), and then searching the spiritual for its soul and creating "manually" the connection to the Deadeye.

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by marianmi

[CrazyRioter she/her]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

As I see, spren are cognitive beings, but they would need a spiritual aspect as well. They don't have a physical aspect tho` - some spren have a reflection on physical when strong emotion is present. To form a Nahel bond, an intelligent spren needs to move its body from cognitive to physical, process in which they "lose their minds" - and they get some of that back after the nahel bond is formed. I see this as Nahel bond bridging physical to spiritual - when travelling to physical, the spren lose their connection to spiritual, and they piggy-back on the surgebinder for a connection to their own spiritual aspect. The stronger the bond, the higher the "bandwidth" the spren has to the spiritual, the more "whole" they become, the more powerful the KR becomes. Through the Nahel bond, stormlight goes (back) to the spiritual and surges are expressed in the physical (as an effect of what happens in the spiritual?).

 

I don't think it's possible to lose connection to the SR in the manner you are suggesting, and I think the issue that the spren have is that they lack a significant Physical aspect, which impairs their functioning in the PR unless they can "borrow" a Physical aspect from a natively Physical being via the bond.

In the case of the deadeyes they were bound by the oaths that their Radiant swore, which the Radiant then broke, but the spren are still bound and that's why they still manifest as Blades

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

When spren die, they kind of become part of everything, so why did, when the Knights broke their oaths, why did they stay as Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They had been bound into that form by those oaths. The oaths are broken, but it's like they’re cracked. Does that make sense? Like, there's still something holding those spren and that's what made them *inaudible* It would have been better if they had actually died, does that make sense? But they couldn't-- they're bound in that form.

Questioner (paraphrased)

But their consciousness is still, like, gone?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They still have a consciousness, some of them. To an extent.

Questioner (paraphrased)

That's why the screaming happens.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Footnote: The first part of this was transcribed from a separate recording, so it should be close to verbatim. However, the audio file has been taken down, so it cannot be verified exactly.
Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

But they don't have access to a normal Physical aspect in the way that they 'should' so they are messed up and the energy they need to be able to manifest physically is being taken from their minds. At least that's the theory that @Calderis came up with and I agree with as it fits the evidence, including the above WoB.

What they need ts to get access to a proper Physical aspect through a new Radiant, and I think the fact that Maya has been able to communicate with Adolin, even in a very limited form shows that that process is beginning between them.

Edited June 18, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[marianmi]

@CrazyRioter

I disagree.

Spren after passing over, can stay in the physical - e.g. Syl becomes similar to a windspren. They don't "disappear", they just "lose their mind" - that doesn't seem like a "physical" thing to me.

I don't see why they need "energy" to manifest "physically" - manifest from where? What is that "energy"? Investiture? A deadeye has the same amount of investiture as a living spren. My understanding is that upon leaving Shadesmar, spren "disappear" completely from cognitive, they don't have a representation/manifestation in Shadesmar (as humans do).

Also dead spren with scratched eyes implies to me a severing of the spiritual connection, just like people killed with a shardblade have burned eyes.

 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

they need a Physical aspect to manifest physically. They don't have enough of one on their own. So they get it from their bonded human. But when the humans broke the bond the spren were bound in a state where they required a Physical aspect but didn't have a proper one. So the Investiture that makes up the rest of them got redirected. That's why they can't think.

The same thing is actually happening to a lesser extent when they transition to the PR without a bond, they can't both exist in the physical realm and think properly without a physical aspect to piggyback on.

At least that's theory, and I do think the evidence supports it.

[Calderis he/him]

@marianmi

I think it is exactly the same thing. 

Syl is stupid when she crosses over because she's in the Physical, with no bond, and her mind returns as the bond deepens... 

But she is not able to become truly physical. That doesn't happen until the third oath, when she becomes a blade. Jasnah says as much about Ivory. 

Quote

The spren had a noble air about him, stiff-backed and commanding. He could change his size at will, but not his shape, except when fully in this realm, manifesting as a Shardblade. He had taken the name Ivory as a symbol of defiance. He was not what his kin said he was, and would not suffer what fate proclaimed.

If they're stupid just from being in the Physical without a corporeal form, being in the Physical as an actual corporeal blade ramps that up in the extreme. 

And this is a Spiritual change. The distribution of a being between the realms is going to be something written into the Spiritual of a being. The fact that they are supposed to have a Physical aspect because of the way they were severed with the bond, when they were never built to support one naturally is the basis of the problem. 

[marianmi]

@CrazyRioter spren are not in both physical and cognitive at the same time.

Syl was in cognitive, then crossed in physical => there was nothing left in cognitive. She got back to cognitive with Kaladin (and the rest), but this means she was stuck in there (like Kaladin and the rest), and there was no more "physical" part of her - she "got out" with Dalinar's help => there was nothing of her left in cognitive. When she was in Shadesmar, she didn't magically "remember everything" before she crossed over - which means that what she lost when she crossed over, cannot be gained by simply going back to shadesmar - which means there's a spiritual change when doing the first transition.

Also note that Maya had her "real" body back in Shadesmar (like Syl BEFORE she crossed to go to Kaladin). When all were brought back by Dalinar, Maya was not included - because her "real" aspect is now cognitive again, not physical. The shardblade is something that she is stuck with because of her oaths (e.g. the KR broke their, but spren did not/ cannot break theirs). So she crosses back and forth each time (taking 10hb time) (this also means that when a shardblade needs to be resurrected, it needs to be pulled in the physical realm as a shardblade first).

So the point is that she doesn't "need" a physical aspect, because currently she is a cognitive being atm. Just like e.g. Captain Ico.

In conclusion, I maintain that it's the Spiritual that is affected, and that is the one that needs to be "fixed"  (where fixed means being re-connected to the deadeye pulled in the physical as a shardblade, and that connection being then maintained via a nahel bond [this also means i think the Nahel bond is a connection between the physical and the spiritual]). 

 

[Calderis he/him]

@marianmi

"Returning" to shadesmar would only restore the mind of an Unbounded spren precisely because of the Spiritual nature of things. 

For a human in Shadesmar Physically, their body may not be present in the Physical Realm, but their Physical aspect still exists. That's why they still need food, water, and sleep. That's why they can cross back to the Physical through a perpendicularity. 

For a spren that is bonded, or has been unnaturally altered to have a Physical aspect they can't handle, being in the Cognitive does not change the state they are in. Because again, this distribution is written into their Spiritual Aspect.

And they can be in both realms simultaneously and to different degrees. Windspren are not corporeal, but they are rarely seen in the Cognitive. Spren are drawn to emotions and begin to partially show themselves in the Physical even though we see that they are mainly in the Cognitive and what is seen in the Physical is only a part of them.

And this isn't limited to spren. Wyndle himself says that lift can touch him because She must be partly in the Cognitive. Why would that make a difference if Wyndle were completely in the Physical? 

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, marianmi said:

@CrazyRioter spren are not in both physical and cognitive at the same time.

Syl was in cognitive, then crossed in physical => there was nothing left in cognitive. She got back to cognitive with Kaladin (and the rest), but this means she was stuck in there (like Kaladin and the rest), and there was no more "physical" part of her - she "got out" with Dalinar's help => there was nothing of her left in cognitive. When she was in Shadesmar, she didn't magically "remember everything" before she crossed over - which means that what she lost when she crossed over, cannot be gained by simply going back to shadesmar - which means there's a spiritual change when doing the first transition.

Also note that Maya had her "real" body back in Shadesmar (like Syl BEFORE she crossed to go to Kaladin). When all were brought back by Dalinar, Maya was not included - because her "real" aspect is now cognitive again, not physical. The shardblade is something that she is stuck with because of her oaths (e.g. the KR broke their, but spren did not/ cannot break theirs). So she crosses back and forth each time (taking 10hb time) (this also means that when a shardblade needs to be resurrected, it needs to be pulled in the physical realm as a shardblade first).

So the point is that she doesn't "need" a physical aspect, because currently she is a cognitive being atm. Just like e.g. Captain Ico.

In conclusion, I maintain that it's the Spiritual that is affected, and that is the one that needs to be "fixed"  (where fixed means being re-connected to the deadeye pulled in the physical as a shardblade, and that connection being then maintained via a nahel bond [this also means i think the Nahel bond is a connection between the physical and the spiritual]). 

 

Interesting theory! There is a lot we do not know nor understand about the spiritual realm, so that would be a very interesting development. I wish you luck with your theory!

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@marianmi

"Returning" to shadesmar would only restore the mind of an Unbounded spren precisely because of the Spiritual nature of things. 

For a human in Shadesmar Physically, their body may not be present in the Physical Realm, but their Physical aspect still exists. That's why they still need food, water, and sleep. That's why they can cross back to the Physical through a perpendicularity. 

For a spren that is bonded, or has been unnaturally altered to have a Physical aspect they can't handle, being in the Cognitive does not change the state they are in. Because again, this distribution is written into their Spiritual Aspect.

And they can be in both realms simultaneously and to different degrees. Windspren are not corporeal, but they are rarely seen in the Cognitive. Spren are drawn to emotions and begin to partially show themselves in the Physical even though we see that they are mainly in the Cognitive and what is seen in the Physical is only a part of them.

And this isn't limited to spren. Wyndle himself says that lift can touch him because She must be partly in the Cognitive. Why would that make a difference if Wyndle were completely in the Physical? 

Interesting theory! There is still a whole lot we do not know about spren transitioning to the physical so that could be. I wish you luck with your theory!

 

I still like my own theory about Dalinar healing what was torn out with investiture and using Adolin's connection to Maya as scaffolding to guide it with Dalinar's connection powers shoring it all up. 

Guess at the end of the day we will all have to RAFO, because nothing is concrete nor certain yet. Till Rhythm of War!

[Sunbringer he/him]

There is a WoB that I saw once upon a time that I don't want to go search for that says spren ARE in both the physical and cognitive realm most of the time. The only time they go all the way into the physical is when they are summoned as a shardblade. I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff and oversimplifying it, so if anyone finds it just post it here!  

[Aggravatione]

On 6/17/2019 at 11:03 PM, marianmi said:

 

No, they instinctively expect the blade after 10 hb, so they won't have summoned them under 10. Just like Shallan summoned Pattern after 10 hb even as a KR.

 

 

Shallan and Pattern had connected and then Pattern was locked away, and thus with that Shallan's memories of pattern and how the bond worked were locked away. Shallan has also been lying to herself trying to keep those thoughts out, she refuses to think of PatternBlade as anything but a simple shardblade and thus her intent is to summon him like a normal shardblade, and therefore, using the heartbeat rule.