Adonalsium

[Elend Venture he/him]

Could the 16 shards of Adonalsium be put back together somehow? I know it is not likley but I thought that it might be worth looking into.

[+Invocation]

There's been theories about this probably ever since Hero of Ages. General consensus is it would be difficult, but possible, though it might not turn out with direct Adonalsium itself, but more likely 16 different Intents in one vessel.

[Elend Venture he/him]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

There's been theories about this probably ever since Hero of Ages. General consensus is it would be difficult, but possible, though it might not turn out with direct Adonalsium itself, but more likely 16 different Intents in one vessel.

That would be interesting, even if detrimental.

[+Invocation]

27 minutes ago, ElendVenture said:

That would be interesting, even if detrimental.

It'd be a lot more than detrimental. You'd be stuck, essentially, unable to do anything, pulled between 16 different Intents that you can't disobey, only able to act within the small sliver of that Venn diagram that supports them all.

Issues indeed. (Spiritual Adhesion might be able to get around this, which is one of the prevailing theories on this stuff)

[Thanatos]

No because you are made of the same intents, yet are able to act. 

[+Invocation]

8 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

No because you are made of the same intents, yet are able to act. 

Yes, but they're not all-encompassing forces within me. Shardic Intents are very literally the only thing that Shard can do (under normal circumstances) and having 2 opposites creates major issues, so imagine what 16 conflicting ones would do?

Edited January 19, 2019 by Invocation

[Turtle373 he/him]

24 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

No because you are made of the same intents, yet are able to act. 

Harmony's main issue is that his intents stop him from acting

[Thanatos]

Invocation/Turtle373,

Opposites yes. But all 16 Shards in one should be ok to act with free will. Aka autonomy.

 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Thanatos said:

Opposites yes. But all 16 Shards in one should be ok to act with free will. Aka autonomy.

 

The thing about Autonomy is, that is one of the ones that is less hard-line "This Intent means exactly one thing," so different Vessels will act differently with Autonomy's interpretation. The current Autonomy thinks it means isolation from everyone else, which would be it's own issue with a 16-combo Shard, but it could also be interpreted as only listening to one will, which locks the vessel of all 16 Shards up because there's 16 different directions happening there and no real unified path.

It is possible that enough time would fix the issue of differing Intents, though that would be an absolutely absurd amount of time. Millennia, maybe longer. Spiritual Adhesion would be easier.

[Thanatos]

The intents given are only general descriptions.

Honor isn't really Honor but it's a good description.

It's like my original post. We all have these intents within us. I'm not talking the power side I'm talking just the intents themselves. 

We all have anger, which is balanced out by our other intents.

[goody153]

The splintered shards can be reassembled. Adonalsium is just basically all investiture united as one or just a super-shard

[beantheboy12 he/him]

I think that if all sixteen were assembled, they would form a single being with no intent. AKA, Adonalsium. Here's why.

It seems that all shards have an opposite. Many of those are on the same world Like this:

• Ruin + Most Likely Preservation
• Honor + Odium
• Dominion + Devotion
• (Tell me about this one) Autonomy + Endowment
• Ambition + ?? That survival shard maybe
• Cultivation + ?? Ruin maybe
• That survival shard + ?? Autonomy maybe, Endowment maybe
• ?? + ??

When someone gets a shard, they become completely changed by its intent and become like it. (Ati -> Ruin) Sazed is a special case. He is still very much himself because he has two shards of opposite intents. If this theory is correct, that all shards have an opposite, then like Sazed, their intents would neutralize into a single being. That can't only honor, but must hate. Can't only preserve, but must destroy. Can't only be devoted, but must execute dominion. A single being.

[+Invocation]

30 minutes ago, beantheboy12 said:

I think that if all sixteen were assembled, they would form a single being with no intent. AKA, Adonalsium. Here's why.

 

I would argue that just cramming them together would not do that. One person absorbing all of them is just that: one person, 16 Shards. At the very least, they wouldn't reform immediately into Adonalsium, nor would it be the same Adonalsium as there was before the Shattering. I say this because of the massive amount of time and radical changes that have happened in the interim. It was something like 6,000 years Shattering --> Final Desolation, with another 4,000 after that. The Shards really don't perceive themselves as Shards of Adonalsium anymore, but more as their separate entities. It would take time to overcome that, and active effort from the holder.. Spiritual Adhesion might be a way around that, but we haven't seen Spiritual Adhesion except for once.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I had a question regarding the sixteen Shards... If they are, or when they are reformed to Adonalsium, will it have to be one person holding all sixteen Shards?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's a RAFO. I'm gonna RAFO that partially because there's not even-- who knows if it can all be recombined.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

For all we know, Adonalsium might have had the issues that could come about from just jamming all 16 back together.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I know that with Harmony, he has difficulty interacting because he holds two Shards. Did Adonalsium, since he had all these other personality traits, also have issues directly interfering? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

A RAFO! Good question. I've never been asked that question before.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, beantheboy12 said:

Sazed is a special case. He is still very much himself because he has two shards of opposite intents. If this theory is correct, that all shards have an opposite, then like Sazed, their intents would neutralize into a single being.

Sorry to burst your bubble but no, they do not all have opposites.

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Do all Shards have a direct paired opposite intent...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

Also, Sazed is a special case but not because he has two Shards with actual opposite intents. Sazed is special because he can understand and appreciate the need for both of those intents. It's the reason his personality isn't (so far) being adversely affected by the intents in the same way that Leras and especially Ati were.

Quote

zotsandcrambles

You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kellsier

Is Harmony ([Sazed], for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 17, 2015)

If Sazed didn't have that mindset or if someone else took up Preservation and Ruin at the same time, the result could have been very different.

Quote

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

We know from another WoB that under those circumstances, the resulting Shard would have been Discord.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Weltall

[Embrisk he/him]

I would agree that ruin and cultivation are opposites, and that honour and odium are opposites.

I feel like ambition and preservation are more opposites because in English, I feel the closest word for the feeling of the desire for change in any direction would be ambition. Preservation is the desire to keep things unchanged.

I also agree that these are all not pure opposites, but each have their own aspects.

I agree with endowment being close opposites to autonomy. Autonomy is to have something on its own without outside interference. Endowment is to be that interference.

I would hazard a guess that autonomy doesn't have a magic system, but as stated by others, it really depends on his interpretation of autonomy.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Sharshiblarb

[Fezzik]

9 hours ago, Sharshiblarb said:

I would hazard a guess that autonomy doesn't have a magic system, but as stated by others, it really depends on his interpretation of autonomy.

Um, Autonomy lives on Taldain, the world in white sand, which has two magic systems that we know of. And *her* name is Bavadin.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I think a clue to how this works involves Frost's letter to Hoid when describing Rayse.  He described Rayse as one possessing God's divine hatred without the virtues that give it context.  Imagine you as an entire person. Imagine there are 16 character traits that make up your personality. Imagine you took one of those aspects and made that aspect your entire personality. That's what a Shard is essentially. The more aspects combine the more complete a person you become. The more able a Vessel is able to use their own judgement without an overwhelming imperative to interfere.

[Fezzik]

Yeah, but we can see clearly that is not the case because it isn't twice as easy for Sazed to act.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

That's because his intents are opposed.  If he held instead Preservation and Endowment for example he'd have more room to act.

[+Invocation]

38 minutes ago, John203 said:

Yeah, but we can see clearly that is not the case because it isn't twice as easy for Sazed to act.

 

1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's because his intents are opposed.  If he held instead Preservation and Endowment for example he'd have more room to act.

Like Bigmikey said, it's because he recognizes the need for both and they're direct opposites, leaving him stuck. It's been likened to being pulled between two supermassive stars and just barely being able to find the balance, but still being pulled immensely to both sides.

[Fezzik]

The fact that he is between them matters less than the fact that he is in a system with two supermassive stars, to use your example. Do you really think it is easier to navigate with 3, or even 16 stars in the system?

[+Invocation]

6 minutes ago, John203 said:

The fact that he is between them matters less than the fact that he is in a system with two supermassive stars, to use your example. Do you really think it is easier to navigate with 3, or even 16 stars in the system?

That's my point. It would be extremely difficult to find that balance with all 16 without some other ways of doing it than just cramming them all together.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I postulate that the more Shards one acquires the less conflict the Shardic mass exerts on its Vessel. A Vessel is a complete person who theoretically holds all Intents within them. Hold one Shard, that Intent is all-encompassing, no context. Hold 2 and those Intents clash to a greater or lesser degree depending on Intents. What they aren't doing is changing the Vessel which is filtering those Intents, at least not as rapidly as a Shard unopposed would. 300 years after the Catacendre and Sazed is still recognizable from the Era 1 guy. Adding more Shards allow a Vessel to hold themselves separate from the power that would change them. They add context as some actions agree with more than one Intent at a time. 

To use the Supermassive Star analog, add another factor. These masses are not static in their positions. We have with Sazed a Vessel trying to navigate between masses on the extreme opposites of the Spectrum. Add a 3rd mass and the action one takes may allign so that it's 2 Intents against one. Each action changes the alignment of the Intents the Vessel holds.  With each additional Shard gained the more those Shards interact depending on the action. Because the Shards represent the entirety of someone's personality every action contemplated will allign with at least one Shard and there are decisions that will not touch an Intent. The more Shards, the less points where a conflict can take place.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[+Invocation]

6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I postulate that the more Shards one acquires the less conflict the Shardic mass exerts on its Vessel. A Vessel is a complete person who theoretically holds all Intents within them. Hold one Shard, that Intent is all-encompassing, no context. Hold 2 and those Intents clash to a greater or lesser degree depending on Intents. What they aren't doing is changing the Vessel which is filtering those Intents, at least not as rapidly as a Shard unopposed would. 300 years after the Catacendre and Sazed is still recognizable from the Era 1 guy. Adding more Shards allow a Vessel to hold themselves separate from the power that would change them. They add context as some actions agree with more than one Intent at a time. 

The difference is, when a normal person has all those Intents, they can prioritize them within themselves and choose what to do at any given time. If each Intent is all-encompassing, they can't do that. No one person would be able to get along with each Shard enough to not be warped by that Shard, and some singular Shard holders are fighting their Intents even with just the one overpowering thing. 16 would be even worse.

Quote

zotsandcrambles

You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kellsier

Is Harmony ([Sazed], for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 17, 2015)

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Lemme put together a thought experiment that may shed light on my point.

I'm a Vessel. I'm essentially the God on Scadrial. I want Kelsier to die. If I'm holding Preservation then OK, it depends on how long I've had it. A couple days? Kel is a goner. A couple centuries? Not so much. I've become Preservation by then and won't be killing anything. It's all Stasis. 

Same scenario but now I'm holding Ruin and Preservation. It's safe to say that whatever one Intent is in favor of the other opposes. The Ruin in me is all about ending Kel, my Preservation side does not want to kill anything. Maybe I can make a trade-off. I can murder Kel today but must save Vin tomorrow. Or I can get Lessee to kill him. Whatever but I gotta negotiate. 

Ok. I want Kel dead only now I'm holding Honor too. Now I gotta ask myself why I want him dead. Which side will Honor gravitate towards? Since Honor can both kill and protect nothing in it will intrinsically cause conflict for me in this action. It may be involved if he broke an Oath but context matters. How many more conflicts between Intents will there be if I'm also holding Dominian and Cultivation? Because what I know is that these Intents aren't just pushing me, they're pushing against each other too. The Intents are equal in strength so the more they conflict each other the less influence they can exert on me the Vessel. And of course some Vessels will agree more with killing Kel then others, leaving me a window to act that becomes ever wider the more Shards are involved. Hell, unless killing Kel is an act that nearly all the Shards I hold are alligned against I am going to have that room.