What you don't want from the next book?

[Karger he/him]

16 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I'll second that one.  For all the talk about her positive attributes--her intelligence, her beauty, her charisma, etc--when you look at her actual character, at what she does rather than what other people say about her, what you see is a really horrible human being.  She's cruel to others around her, she plays mind games with people, she's horrible to Kaladin, and her first instinctual response to any problem always seems to involve killing somebody.  (The alley thugs, Kabsal, a Herald, Renarin, the entire Parshman race, etc.)  To be quite honest, she comes across as a psychopath of the charismatic, prosocial variety.

This is by no means somebody who is going to make a good monarch, and I'll be very disappointed if she magically metamorphoses into one without really earning it!

Edited 5 minutes ago by Mason Wheeler

I would not say that she is a horrible human being she is just Taravangianish.  She likes logical, practical, final solutions to her problems but her intentions are always good.  As for killing the entire race her goals are actually to avoid having to do that which is why she suggests killing a herald.  I would like to see her admitting some incompetence and being forced to rely on Kaladin or Dalinar for advice on leadership and I think she will make mistakes but Jasnah does admit her flaws and is trying to do the right thing.

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

In my mind, Amaram POV-chapters would have made his arc clearer and maybe allow readers to feel symphaty for him. That would have made for a stronger ending. Now his final scenes were basically Mario vs Bowser or something of that sort. A cool fight scene, but with less emotional impact than it could have. Giving Amaram POVs in OB would also have made sense because he is the anti-Dalinar. He would have worked brilliantly as a foil. Amaram kinda went down as a boring and plain bad guy for most people, while he could have gone down as an interesting antagonist who helped flesh out the story more. 

So I preface this knowing we are both on very opposite ends of our interpretations of Jasnah and Amaram. I also acknowledge our views on each are purely our own opinions at the end of the day. So please do not take this as me being critical of your opinion that you are perfectly entitled to, but as me expressing my disagreement and expressing why. I personally do not feel we need to see Amaram with more sympathy. Brandon has commented himself on how he sees Amaram in a very negative light, so it seems to me that was the authors intention. Any additional PoV time I think would have just enforced this further, so I personally do not see it as necessary. 

48 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I'll second that one.  For all the talk about her positive attributes--her intelligence, her beauty, her charisma, etc--when you look at her actual character, at what she does rather than what other people say about her, what you see is a really horrible human being.  She's cruel to others around her, she plays mind games with people, she's horrible to Kaladin, and her first instinctual response to any problem always seems to involve killing somebody.  (The alley thugs, Kabsal, a Herald, Renarin, the entire Parshman race, etc.)  To be quite honest, she comes across as a psychopath of the charismatic, prosocial variety, the kind that ends up leading cults. (Or Fortune 500 companies.)

This is by no means somebody who is going to make a good monarch, and I'll be very disappointed if she magically metamorphoses into one without really earning it!

I respect that that is your reading of Jasnah, but honestly i feel completely the opposite. I feel the scenes where we really get to see what is going on in Jasnah's mind, and how she really feels shows a deeply emotional, loving, uncertain, and fearful person. She drove herself to exhaustion to research the desolations deeply scared of what she knew was coming and feeling powerless to stop it and protect her family. We have WoB that show she deeply loves her family. We have from her own PoV how much she loves her family. We see her love for Shallan when she thought she committed suicide. You are perfectly entitled to see her however you wish, but I think the peeks we have in her head show a very very different Jasnah than you posit. 

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would not say that she is a horrible human being she is just Taravangianish.  She likes logical, practical, final solutions to her problems but her intentions are always good.  As for killing the entire race her goals are actually to avoid having to do that which is why she suggests killing a herald.  I would like to see her admitting some incompetence and being forced to rely on Kaladin or Dalinar for advice on leadership and I think she will make mistakes but Jasnah does admit her flaws and is trying to do the right thing.

I have said it countless times, and I will say it again, I maintain in my opinion that the scene regarding discussing the parshendi is grossly taken out of context and paints Jasnah in a light that does not apply. I also feel there are numerous examples of her making mistakes, admitting her mistakes, learning from them, and endeavoring to do better. 

But at the end of the day we all come to these books with different backgrounds, different biases, and different interpretations. At the end of the day I guess all we can do is RAFO

[Mason Wheeler]

41 minutes ago, Karger said:

As for killing the entire race her goals are actually to avoid having to do that which is why she suggests killing a herald.

I wasn't even referring to that; I was talking about the end of book 1, when she's talking with Shallan about the identity of the Voidbringers, and she laments that past humanity didn't do the right thing and genocide every last one of them, preferring instead to "not throw away something useful."  That was disturbing enough to read when it first came out; the context we got later from the Eila Stelae (sp?) about them being the original inhabitants of Roshar makes it full-on horrific in hindsight!  And now she's in charge of a major nation renowned for its military might and warrior ethos.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Mason Wheeler

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I wasn't even referring to that; I was talking about the end of book 1, when she's talking with Shallan about the identity of the Voidbringers, and she laments that past humanity didn't do the right thing and genocide every last one of them, preferring instead to "not throw away something useful."  That was disturbing enough to read when it first came out; the context we got later from the Eila Stelae (sp?) about them being the original inhabitants of Roshar makes it full-on horrific in hindsight!  And now she's in charge of a major nation renowned for its military might and warrior ethos.

Way of Kings page 979

"...but the legends lie about one thing" Jasnah continued. "They claim we chased the Voidbringers off the face of Roshar or destroyed them. But that's not how humans work. We don't throw away something we can use."

"We didn't destroy the voidbringers" Jasnah said from behind, her voice haunted "We enslaved them"

I don't really see how it could be said that Jasnah lamented that they didn't wipe out every single one. To me she is horrified by the realization that by enslaving the parshmen, humanity has effectively signed their own death warrant by the voidbringers who had nearly wiped out humanity constantly in the past, now outnumber them 10 to 1. That the voidbringers are not an absent threat but a very real one that can happen at any time and she has no idea how to stop it. I didn't really take it as an "aw shucks that they didn't kill em all" but more a "dear god, nukes that will wipe out the planet are right beneath our feet and can be set off at anytime". But i respect that is your own interpretation. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Mason Wheeler]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

But that's not how humans work. We don't throw away something we can use.

I may be reading something into this that's not intended, but I can't see those words as being spoken any other way than positively dripping with bitterness and cynicism.

Quote

voidbringers who had nearly wiped out humanity constantly in the past, now outnumber them 10 to 1

Really?  Do we have a quote for that?  I was under the impression that they were (somewhat) rare, as they made for expensive slaves.  If they were that common, every darkeyed peasant could afford a Parshman servant or three.

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I may be reading something into this that's not intended, but I can't see those words as being spoken any other way than positively dripping with bitterness and cynicism.

Really?  Do we have a quote for that?  I was under the impression that they were (somewhat) rare, as they made for expensive slaves.  If they were that common, every darkeyed peasant could afford a Parshman servant or three.

I also read that as bitterness, but for me I read it as "of course humans would find a way to take something and pervert it, or take advantage of it". there are plenty of things in the world today that I abhor but I go "of course it would happen like that. why would people actually want to help instead of hurt? naturally dont try and stop a fight, record it instead"  (the emoji is about my comment, not towards you. i would be rolling my eyes as I said that)

Yep really. Got the scene up, just need to type it up for reference. Will update my post to include it soon. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

39 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I may be reading something into this that's not intended, but I can't see those words as being spoken any other way than positively dripping with bitterness and cynicism.

Of course she is is cynical!  She just found decisive proof that her society incorporated beings who (she belives) want to kill them and has been breeding them in large numbers for profit!

[Pathfinder]

47 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I may be reading something into this that's not intended, but I can't see those words as being spoken any other way than positively dripping with bitterness and cynicism.

Really?  Do we have a quote for that?  I was under the impression that they were (somewhat) rare, as they made for expensive slaves.  If they were that common, every darkeyed peasant could afford a Parshman servant or three.

So making a new post because I have something more to add

 

(First the reference where the parshmen far outnumber the humans:)

 

Way of Kings page 990

"The serve our food" Jasnah continued "They work our storehouses. They tend our children. There isn't a village in Roshar that doesn't have some parshmen. We ignore them; we just expect them to be there, doing as they do. Working without complaint"

 

(Next another quote regarding how Jasnah intends to "handle" the parshmen)

 

Words of Radiance page 113

"And then, there are stories - ones I dare to believe - claiming that Urithiru was holy and protected from the Voidbringers. Maybe that was wishful fancy, but I am not too much a scholar to hope that something like that might be true"

"And the parshmen?"

"We will try to persuade the Alethi to rid themselves of those"

 

(So we see Jasnah seeking a safe harbor from the potential attack of the voidbringers in Urithiru and a means to convince the highprinces of "getting rid" of the parshmen. Ah getting rid of! She must be talking about killing them all! Except....)

 

"Convincing everyone of what I say is beyond us without more evidence. Even if my brother listens, he doesn't have the authority to force the highprinces to get rid of their parshmen. And, in all honesty, I fear my brother won't be brace enough to risk the collapse expelling the parshmen might cause"

 

(expelling. Definition: to force out or eject. to force someone to leave a place especially a country. She is not trying to wipe out the parshmen, she is trying to get everyone to kick them out of the cities to potentially minimize the fallout when the parshmen potentially change. A suggestion Dalinar takes and does so with his own warcamp, as well as anyone who accompanied him out to the shatteredplains. Finally a suggestion Dalinar also sent to other countries that listened to varying degrees. The suggestion was not to line them up and execute them. It was to expel them)

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Way of Kings page 990

"The serve our food" Jasnah continued "They work our storehouses. They tend our children.

She is likely speaking of wealthy lighteyes as "us".

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There isn't a village in Roshar that doesn't have some parshmen. We ignore them; we just expect them to be there, doing as they do. Working without complaint"

A village is dozens of people at least.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

(expelling. Definition: to force out or eject. to force someone to leave a place especially a country. She is not trying to wipe out the parshmen, she is trying to get everyone to kick them out of the cities to potentially minimize the fallout when the parshmen potentially change. A suggestion Dalinar takes and does so with his own warcamp, as well as anyone who accompanied him out to the shatteredplains. Finally a suggestion Dalinar also sent to other countries that listened to varying degrees. The suggestion was not to line them up and execute them. It was to expel them)

Jasnah is pragmatic. If she knows that outright killing them is not an option many would implement, she will settle for expulsion. Better than nothing.
Wanting is a category that fits Jasnah imperfectly. She wants to protect her family and kill Amaram. The rest of her actions are not guided by wishes. She operates on calm necessity.

[Pagliacci he/him]

I just realised the relationship between Roshar and the Parshendi is kind of like Sparta and its slaves.

 

Also no more dead people being revived please.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

She is likely speaking of wealthy lighteyes as "us".

A village is dozens of people at least.

Jasnah is pragmatic. If she knows that outright killing them is not an option many would implement, she will settle for expulsion. Better than nothing.
Wanting is a category that fits Jasnah imperfectly. She wants to protect her family and kill Amaram. The rest of her actions are not guided by wishes. She operates on calm necessity.

I mean I guess you could interpret that but to me when you say villages across all of Roshar and when you imply even places as small as villages have parshmen, that says to me they are prevalent at every level of the world. But I guess on this point to each their own

Again, I guess you can interpret it that way, though personally I think the text is pretty explicit. Honestly I disagree with your reading of Jasnah, but at the end of the day to each their own. We have already talked about this before and I have already referenced other spots in the books that say to me that that is not Jasnah, but I guess we will just have to RAFO

[+Oltux72 he/him]

30 minutes ago, Pagliacci said:

I just realised the relationship between Roshar and the Parshendi is kind of like Sparta and its slaves.

No, that is too broad a generalisation. As far as we know the Shin and the Reshi Isles have few, if any Parshmen.
And the armies were operational without Parshendi. The camp followers are human. Washer women are human. Human slaves are common and cheap. And the majority even in Alethkar are farmers. Roshar is not Sparta.

30 minutes ago, Pagliacci said:

Also no more dead people being revived please.

With the Everstorm blowing?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Pathfinder Hah, I know that I am very alone in my Amaram-fondness. So no worries. I would love to ask Brandon a bit about Amaram if he ever makes it to Sweden. But I think every villain is improved if you can feel for them, or at least understand why they do what they do. POVs from Amaram would at the very least make his character and motives more clear, even if they didn’t provide more sympathy. 

Also, I kinda agree with both you and @Mason Wheeler regarding Jasnah. She is defenitely no psychopath. I do think that she is kinda brutal and cold in her solutions (her first solution to Renarins problem was to kill him as well, even though she changed her mind there). I feel that the line between her and Mr T for example, is rather blurry at times. But neither one is a psychopath I think (I am not doctor though, so I can’t say for sure). I defenitely feel like Jasnah gets away with stuff more often than anyone but Hoid and  maybe Kelsier, and I’m not too happy with that. 

 

[Pathfinder]

20 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@Pathfinder Hah, I know that I am very alone in my Amaram-fondness. So no worries. I would love to ask Brandon a bit about Amaram if he ever makes it to Sweden. But I think every villain is improved if you can feel for them, or at least understand why they do what they do. POVs from Amaram would at the very least make his character and motives more clear, even if they didn’t provide more sympathy. 

Also, I kinda agree with both you and @Mason Wheeler regarding Jasnah. She is defenitely no psychopath. I do think that she is kinda brutal and cold in her solutions (her first solution to Renarins problem was to kill him as well, even though she changed her mind there). I feel that the line between her and Mr T for example, is rather blurry at times. But neither one is a psychopath I think (I am not doctor though, so I can’t say for sure). I defenitely feel like Jasnah gets away with stuff more often than anyone but Hoid and  maybe Kelsier, and I’m not too happy with that. 

 

No worries. So this is just my own theory regarding Amaram, and why he received the treatment he did. Most of it is conjecture so obviously take it with a grain of salt. I think we all agree Brandon is rather religious. He calls himself a theist and is passionate regarding the religion he is a member of. I have read WoB and interviews with him about how he views his religion and interacting with that religion with others. At the end of the day (not to get political) my line of thinking is you are more than welcome to hold your own faith and I wish you well with it, as long as you respect that i myself do not share that faith and hope you wish me just as much well. My impression is Brandon does not view zealotry in a positive light. I think that is because he may think a zealot makes people of genuine faith look bad. It becomes a confrontation instead of a discussion, and it shuts down meeting in the middle and respecting each other. I would have to dig to find the exact interviews and WoB I am thinking of, but i got the impression that Brandon views Amaram in that light. As a zealot that is trying to force others to follow his beliefs rather than trying to convince them through a compelling argument and letting the person decide for themselves. That is why i feel any further development of Amaram would in my opinion play out the same way. Now this is also colored as my interpretation of Amaram I will be honest is rather negative so I am going to view his actions in a negative light. Just like how I am responding about Jasnah. Ironically enough I think we are both technically waiting for the same thing. You wanted PoV's of Amaram that can better explain, and dare I say justify his actions by showing who he is deep down. I look forward to more PoVs for Jasnah because I feel they will show more of her humanity and who I feel she is deep down. Maybe Brandon will release some PoVs of Amaram posthumous. I just think you will not get the answers you seek. Guess at the end of the day all we can do is RAFO lol. 

 

edit: @Toaster Retribution i did want to add an amendment to this post. Brandon has said when representing an opposing opinion, one should do their best to represent it well so it does not appear to be disregarding another view out of hand. it is why he researched atheism and did his best to represent it well despite himself being a theist. So just because Brandon may not view Amaram in a favorable light, does not necessarily mean he would not give him due treatment. Again at the end of the day guess we will RAFO. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Eluvianii he/him]

When I started WoK I didn't really like the idea of flashbacks and ended up loving them. I didn't like the idea of interludes interrupting the story and now I look forward to them as much as any other POV. Dalinar bored me a little in the beggining and now he's my favorite character.

At this point it doesn't matter what I would or wouldn't like to see in the next book, I know I'll love it anyway.

[Messydesk]

I don't want to see a redemption arc for Moash either since I think he's a good antagonist. Though I can't help but think he would make an acceptable casualty for Kaladin's Fourth Ideal (if we go with the assumption he needs to admit and accept that he can't save everyone).

No more love-triangles either, I was so happy the one we had got solved in Oathbringer. Sure there could and should be bumps in the relationships but let's not go back to something that has been solved.

Also, I don't want to see a random female character becoming Kaladin's love interest. If he finds his love eventually I want it to be a character we know before they get together, like we did with Shallan and Adolin (Dalinar and Navani were a special case since they knew each other from the past and Dalinar was very against the idea of him courting her). I don't mean it has to be a character that has been introduced to us already in books 1-3, but I do want to learn to know the character at least few chapters before Kaladin falls head over heels for them...

I also agree with the solo missions, I love the character interactions and would hate to see them going on their own ways or spend the whole book in the same little groups.

I would also hate to not see Zahel/Vasher's reaction when Szeth brings Nightblood near him. The one year skip kinda makes me fear we'll miss that kind of small but important events.

And I don't want Adolin to get killed yet. I have this irrational fear of Adolin getting killed off suddenly like some characters have in the past (outside Stormlight Archive). 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Messydesk said:

And I don't want Adolin to get killed yet. I have this irrational fear of Adolin getting killed off suddenly like some characters have in the past (outside Stormlight Archive). 

I don't think it's that irrational.

There are some arguments, that can be made, that he outlived his usefulness.

[Messydesk]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I don't think it's that irrational.

There are some arguments, that can be made, that he outlived his usefulness.

I guess the irrational part is mostly that it'll be sudden and with no explanation (like just killing him randomly in a highstorm like he was supposed to die in the early drafts of WoK), which I know won't happen since I trust his death will have some kind of meaning in another character's arc (probably all the main ones). From what I've read from WoBs and theories, I personally believe there will be 50/50 chance of him living through book 5. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

On 2019-02-21 at 9:33 PM, Pathfinder said:

No worries. So this is just my own theory regarding Amaram, and why he received the treatment he did. Most of it is conjecture so obviously take it with a grain of salt. I think we all agree Brandon is rather religious. He calls himself a theist and is passionate regarding the religion he is a member of. I have read WoB and interviews with him about how he views his religion and interacting with that religion with others. At the end of the day (not to get political) my line of thinking is you are more than welcome to hold your own faith and I wish you well with it, as long as you respect that i myself do not share that faith and hope you wish me just as much well. My impression is Brandon does not view zealotry in a positive light. I think that is because he may think a zealot makes people of genuine faith look bad. It becomes a confrontation instead of a discussion, and it shuts down meeting in the middle and respecting each other. I would have to dig to find the exact interviews and WoB I am thinking of, but i got the impression that Brandon views Amaram in that light. As a zealot that is trying to force others to follow his beliefs rather than trying to convince them through a compelling argument and letting the person decide for themselves. That is why i feel any further development of Amaram would in my opinion play out the same way. Now this is also colored as my interpretation of Amaram I will be honest is rather negative so I am going to view his actions in a negative light. Just like how I am responding about Jasnah. Ironically enough I think we are both technically waiting for the same thing. You wanted PoV's of Amaram that can better explain, and dare I say justify his actions by showing who he is deep down. I look forward to more PoVs for Jasnah because I feel they will show more of her humanity and who I feel she is deep down. Maybe Brandon will release some PoVs of Amaram posthumous. I just think you will not get the answers you seek. Guess at the end of the day all we can do is RAFO lol. 

 

edit: @Toaster Retribution i did want to add an amendment to this post. Brandon has said when representing an opposing opinion, one should do their best to represent it well so it does not appear to be disregarding another view out of hand. it is why he researched atheism and did his best to represent it well despite himself being a theist. So just because Brandon may not view Amaram in a favorable light, does not necessarily mean he would not give him due treatment. Again at the end of the day guess we will RAFO. 

I defenitely agree that Brandon means to portray Amaram as a zealot and I also think that zealotry is bad (I think most people agree about that :-) What I mean regarding Amaram is (like you say) that the driving force behind his zealotry should be exposed. In my mind that should help make him more symphatetic. I could be wrong though. But there are defenitely things in the books that point toward Amaram wanting to be good.

And I would defenitely not say no to POVs that deepens Jasnahs character either. My main problem with her though is that I feel that she is too perfect. No matter what the problem is, Jasnah can solve it. That kind of bugs me a bit. 

But yeah, I will most likely not get what I want in terms of Amaram. Thats fine though, since Stormlight is an amazing series both with and without him. 

[Kelsier'sGodComplex she/her]

I just want Shallan and Adolin to stay together. And I want more Knights Radiant. I'm quite simple.

 

I don't want my favorite characters to die. I think everyone wants that, also.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

10 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And I would defenitely not say no to POVs that deepens Jasnahs character either. My main problem with her though is that I feel that she is too perfect. No matter what the problem is, Jasnah can solve it. That kind of bugs me a bit.

The thing about Jasnah is that most of what we know of her character comes from Shallan's POV. Shallan thinks Jasnah is perfection personified. She's overwhelming, intimidating, brilliant, beautiful and always correct. Shallan is the head priestess in the Church of Jasnah. But in the limited time we get to spend in Jasnah's head we see that the face she presents to the world isn't a mirror to how she perceives herself. She armors herself in logical and upright behaviour. It causes people to misunderstand her, both in-world and in real life.

I have spent so much time derailing this thread responding to everyone I never said what I don't want to see. I don't wanna see the Oathpact restored in any shape or form. It was a bad idea to start though it had a good run. The advent of the Everstorm has robbed it of the limited effectiveness it already had. So kill it dead and find another solution.

[Mason Wheeler]

3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I don't wanna see the Oathpact restored in any shape or form. It was a bad idea to start though it had a good run. The advent of the Everstorm has robbed it of the limited effectiveness it already had. So kill it dead and find another solution.

The thing I wonder is, instead of setting up the Oathpact as--let's face it--a delaying action, why didn't they try and actually strike at the root of the problem?  Figure out what it is that's keeping the souls of the Fused from passing into the Beyond and undo that!

That's what I want to see happen further on in the series.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

25 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The thing I wonder is, instead of setting up the Oathpact as--let's face it--a delaying action, why didn't they try and actually strike at the root of the problem?  Figure out what it is that's keeping the souls of the Fused from passing into the Beyond and undo that!

That's what I want to see happen further on in the series.

Who says they didn't? Though I argued that the Oathpact was a bad idea it may have been the best of a bad lot at the time, at least as they saw it. But the experiment failed as we all can see; Honor was shattered upon that failure. But the conditions are different than they were in the Shadowdays, and new conditions present new opportunities. Trying to fit an unsuitable Oathpact into this situation would be an even worse move than it was before. If they try it it will make me want to throw things.

[Mason Wheeler]

13 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Trying to fit an unsuitable Oathpact into this situation would be an even worse move than it was before. If they try it it will make me want to throw things.

I agree, that would be wrong and very frustrating.  But I don't think that that's what's going to happen, because Brandon's books tend to be, at their core, about fixing problems.  I think that either The Stormlight Archive will end up being the story of how they fix the problem of the Fused and the cycle of Desolations, or that the "front half" (first 5 books) will be, and then the "back half" will be the story of how they fix some other problem, perhaps something that springs up as a result of fixing the problem of the Fused and the Desolations.

[Pathfinder]

On 2/23/2019 at 4:54 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I defenitely agree that Brandon means to portray Amaram as a zealot and I also think that zealotry is bad (I think most people agree about that :-) What I mean regarding Amaram is (like you say) that the driving force behind his zealotry should be exposed. In my mind that should help make him more symphatetic. I could be wrong though. But there are defenitely things in the books that point toward Amaram wanting to be good.

And I would defenitely not say no to POVs that deepens Jasnahs character either. My main problem with her though is that I feel that she is too perfect. No matter what the problem is, Jasnah can solve it. That kind of bugs me a bit. 

But yeah, I will most likely not get what I want in terms of Amaram. Thats fine though, since Stormlight is an amazing series both with and without him. 

The thing with Jasnah is, in my opinion, all her character development and issues were in her past. She has the role of mentor at this time. I believe her character cannot yet be delved into till the back five when we get to see her flashbacks where her conflicts originate, and we can see how she became the woman she is "today". Jasnah makes mistakes and admits to them, just to me, since she is still in the background and not the forefront yet, those mistakes are not narrative altering. 

On 2/23/2019 at 3:40 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

The thing about Jasnah is that most of what we know of her character comes from Shallan's POV. Shallan thinks Jasnah is perfection personified. She's overwhelming, intimidating, brilliant, beautiful and always correct. Shallan is the head priestess in the Church of Jasnah. But in the limited time we get to spend in Jasnah's head we see that the face she presents to the world isn't a mirror to how she perceives herself. She armors herself in logical and upright behaviour. It causes people to misunderstand her, both in-world and in real life.

I have spent so much time derailing this thread responding to everyone I never said what I don't want to see. I don't wanna see the Oathpact restored in any shape or form. It was a bad idea to start though it had a good run. The advent of the Everstorm has robbed it of the limited effectiveness it already had. So kill it dead and find another solution.

Yeah, it is going to be a lot of work and I don't know if I will ever finish it, but I have been putting together every book quote about Jasnah to put together what I feel is a better understand of the character. The times we see the genuine Jasnah are brief, but the moments are many and they are poignant. I hope by calling attention to these moments, people who start to see what I feel is the "real" Jasnah.

On 2/23/2019 at 7:40 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

The thing I wonder is, instead of setting up the Oathpact as--let's face it--a delaying action, why didn't they try and actually strike at the root of the problem?  Figure out what it is that's keeping the souls of the Fused from passing into the Beyond and undo that!

That's what I want to see happen further on in the series.

Because frankly they didn't have enough information, which Jasnah was pushing for them to research, partially via finding the heralds. We don't even fully know what is keeping the fused continually returning. 

On 2/23/2019 at 8:13 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Who says they didn't? Though I argued that the Oathpact was a bad idea it may have been the best of a bad lot at the time, at least as they saw it. But the experiment failed as we all can see; Honor was shattered upon that failure. But the conditions are different than they were in the Shadowdays, and new conditions present new opportunities. Trying to fit an unsuitable Oathpact into this situation would be an even worse move than it was before. If they try it it will make me want to throw things.

Lol I understand. I think Jasnah's suggestion with the oathpact was a delaying action, to try something with what little info they have. I think in book 4, given all that occurred in oathbringer, their tactics will change.