Adolin - Dancing on the Edge of being an Edgedancer

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

22 minutes ago, Sedside said:

It doesn't matter, was his life perfect or not.  

If this was so, why do people keep bringing up Adolin's life being perfect when bashing his character?

 

Quote

He had problems in his life, not so dramatic as Adolin supporters like to state when trying to prove his "brokenness" be enough to bond Maya

The threshold of how "broken" you need to be to be a Radiant is not as much as people think it is. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar are outliers, if they were the standard, there could never have been hundreds of Radiants. 

 

Quote

Why would you want to take a pattern by him? Or tell your children to do it?

Speaking for me, while I like Kaladin and Shallan more than Adolin, in some ways I empathize more with Adolin. Feeling like I can't live up to people's expectations, or my parents' legacy, and wondering about what my place in the world is... These are all things I've felt. Frankly, I didn't do a good job of it sometimes.

Adolin doesn't always either, but he's willing to acknowledge these issues about himself.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Can we not turn another thread into a storming Adolin war for once?

Seriously... This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs proposal. 

Thank you! Well said!

Now back to the OP's post

19 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Let it be known that Adolin will be the ultimate Edgedancer, by virtue of not being an Edgedancer. Edgedancers can stand on the finest rope, ride the thinnest cord, and metaphorically straddle the various levels and groups of society. It is only fitting then, that Adolin would fulfil this same function within the Knights, being both Knight Radiant and a normal man, an Edgedancer between Edgedancer and anathema to a spren.

 

Being fully serious now, I was actually also being serious above. Adolin will probably not swear any Oaths, for Maya can't receive them and no other spren will accept him, with him being bonded to a corpse. Maya will become more complete, but never a fully intact Radiant spren again, though more fully grounded in her mind, and more fully bonded to Adolin. He will have access to surges, but only through Maya as a blade - rather than the human using the surges, it will be the blade, so long as he touches her. She will come faster than she currently does, but never fully instantly. He will have plate, but only the plate he currently owns, and never be able to summon plate, as Maya and he cannot without Oaths being sworn. She will become more like a living spren in the cognitive realm, but never fully alive again. He will fill in her missing parts, but she will never fill any cracks in him. They will be part of one another, as any Knight and spren are part of each other, but never the same way as a Knight. He will be admired by spren for reviving her after a fashion (... Adolin and fashion ...) but also despised as anyone bonded to a dead blade would be.

 

Basically, this theory is that Adolin will be - ironically - the best example of an Edgedancer, but without being an Edgedancer, without armour his access to surges could penetrate, and only having surges when touching Maya, with them only working through her as well, healing or decreasing friction or increasing it with what touches her.

I think it would be very interesting to see how Adolin could use the powers you posit he would gain, while trying to handle the limitations you put forward that other radiants wouldn't run into. I always love Brandon's magic systems, and how the characters use what they have to accomplish goals despite limitations is what I enjoy most about it!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I would be glad to continue the triangle discussion, I love it, but I don't want to offtop more here.

Gee, I wonder, if there ever was such a thread, that was shut down. Instead the discussion is now spread onto many threads, that are tangent to it.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Gee, I wonder, if there ever was such a thread, that was shut down. Instead the discussion is now spread onto many threads, that are tangent to it.

Yeah I wish that thread hadn't bee shut down frankly.

[Pathfinder]

I thought @Chaos said @Sedside could create a new one? I do not want to get involved in that, but wouldn't starting fresh be good for all parties who do want to be involved? Start from square one without all the old pages of arguments?

[Comatose he/him]

There are several threads on this board discussing different aspects of Adolin and/or Shallan and/or Kaladin’s romantic plotlines.  Try to keep this one to the OPs topic so it doesn’t get buried and so people who are looking to talk about Adolin being a Radiant don’t get too bogged down with other stuff.  Thank-you all!

If the particular aspect of the relationship you want to discuss isn’t covered please do start a new topic!

[Chaos he/him]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Gee, I wonder, if there ever was such a thread, that was shut down. Instead the discussion is now spread onto many threads, that are tangent to it.

What was closed was a megathread that merged people wanting in depth character debates, with reactions and other things. It made people feel like the only place character discussion could occur regarding Adolin Shallan and Kaladin, and there was a LOT of heated opinions, and also conflict with people wanting to share their opinions, versus people who wanted to debate them. 

All of these things are valid (if done respectfully) but having it in a megathread was seriously not great and caused a large amount of conflict from every side, and also makes it seem like the megathread is the only place where people can discuss character things. Structurally it was not advantageous to have.

You can make threads! We have always been consistent in the aftermath of ASK's closure that making new character threads is awesome! We just want them to be more focused than "everything about Shallan Adolin and Kaladin". That's a pretty low bar. In addition, make it clear if a shipping thread is more just for fun, or for more serious discussion and debates.

There are so many threads anyone can make! Here are some example topic titles that one could use:

• Why I Don't Like Adolin
• Why I Like Adolin
• Why Kaladin is Better For Shallan
• Why Shallan and Adolin Won't Last (oh hey, we have this one!)
• Potential Conflicts with Shallan and Adolin's Marriage
• Why I'm Disappointed in the Love Triangle Resolution (I think this one has also been a thing)

There has been a lot of character discussion after the megathread was closed. There should not be one place where that's the only place where you can discuss characters. There can be fun threads, there can be discussion threads. These don't and shouldn't need to be the same. By having a bit more focus (it doesn't need to be a lot) you can have the discussions you want! Do you want to have a pro-Adolin thread that's gushing about him? Sure! Do you want a thread where you can commiserate with others about not liking Adolin? Absolutely! Those don't even need to be "debate" style topics so if that's not your jam, don't feel like you need to defend your opinions if it's a more "fun" topic, for example. If it's a topic that's more "let's talk about this aspect, why people like this or why people don't" then that's a debate thread, and that's great too! We just need to not have personal attacks (strictly prohibited) or escalation of conflict. People can have so many opinions, and it's fine for people to disagree. Please understand that. Another person having a different viewpoint doesn't mean you are being aggressed. It could, but also probably not.

(And as always, report things that you think are offensive so we can moderate them effectively, lower conflict, and make sure respectful discussion continues.)

Anyway, let's focus on to the topic, and if you'd like to discuss another aspect, you have the power to make such a thread! Character discussion is a rich area that does not need to be segregated to a single big thread, and there's so much that can be discussed. Make it happen if you want it to! 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Can we not turn another thread into a storming Adolin war for once?

Seriously... This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs proposal. 

So much this.

[Ixthos he/him]

Sorry about the delay in responding everyone. I've been sick over the past week and didn't have enough time or energy yesterday to log on. I see some tensions on an unrelated topic flared up in my absence, and I apologise if my being absent was a contributing factor. I'm just glad that cooler heads of senior members and the moderators kept things in check. I won't address any of the unrelated comments, except on a related point to note to @SLNC that this wouldn't make Adolin "special", any more than a man who has a gun attached to a chain is special. Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Under the analogy I am going for, powers aside Wax isn't any more special than another character when it comes to guns except in his skill. Any character can use a gun. And likewise any character can use a medallion. Medallions, however, are not my example, because they give the exact same powers as a Misting or Ferring etc. could otherwise have. I'm using the example of a gun for this reason.

A man with a gun can shoot, but needs the gun, and needs to reload it. A man with a hand that can turn into a gun and which converts their own mass into bullets is at an advantage there, as they have unlimited bullets and can't be disarmed. A man with a gun attached to a chain, however, is at a relative advantage to a man whose gun is simply held, but far less than a man who can change his own limbs. Adolin is the man with the gun on a chain in this example, as anyone with a fabrial has access to the surges, yet would still be an ordinary character. He isn't a Knight and so can't use the surges in the same way, nor does he need to swear Oaths, any more than someone using a fabrial does. He is in the middle, which is where an Edgedancer stands, only he isn't an Edgedancer, but almost.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 0:42 AM, Pathfinder said:

Great theory and good luck! I have my own I cling to but I am sure whatever Brandon works out, it will be great! 

And good luck to yours as well! :-) I'm actually curious about what you think it might be - if you've already posted a topic about it, please let me know :-)

 

On 2/14/2019 at 5:00 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

So Maya becomes the Edgedancer Honorblade and Adolin can still provide that human perspective when all around him is Radiant. I actually kinda like that, at least for the front 5 SA. Maybe Addie is due for a visit to the Valley eventually, maybe have a convo with NW and Culti on Maya's behalf.

Not exactly like an Honourblade, but kinda :-) I think all the Honourblades allow the user to channel the surges with their own bodies, but this would require the surges to go through Maya, in a sense similar to what Higher spren can normally do, as Syl showed with Adhesion.

Just to give an example of how I think Adolin could use a surge, the main idea I had was that Adolin would lay the flat of Maya on someone, and then the healing surge would pass through her into them, so sort of the opposite of what shardblades normally do, his would be a blade that heals as well.

I would actually like to see Adolin interceding to ask the Nightwatcher or Cultivation to help Maya, though I suspect they might not have to directly interfere to restore her, rather telling Adolin what to do.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 5:18 AM, CrazyRioter said:

I personally think it is possible to revive a dead spren by saying the oaths and living them, it's just that  it takes more effort and maybe special circumstances to get it to work.

Your theory is absolutely interesting though and I can see you've put a lot of thought into it.

I'm sure whatever Brandon comes up with it's gonna be Awesome.

Thanks :-) Maya probably can be restored by Oaths, though I don't know if Adolin would be able to do that - it might be that saying the Oaths could restore her, but there might be another route Adolin takes that isn't a complete fix, but helps her. I think parts of her are permanently gone, much like in (Emperor's Soul spoiler:)

Spoiler

The Emperor's original soul was gone, but an approximation was made which was very close.

I think that parts of her were lost when the bond was destroyed, and so they can be replaced or patched, but the scars would remain, as would the loss of whatever information was stored in them, unless the spiritual part could be read and used as a template to restore missing memories.

 

One thing that would be very interesting would be if what Adolin does fixes her enough that if he died she would be fully intact again and able to bond a Knight, or at least intact enough to form a proper Nahel bond, and that person completes healing her, but only because of Adolin starting the process. Having to give her up or dying only for that to fully heal her would be rough.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

A man with a gun can shoot, but needs the gun, and needs to reload it. A man with a hand that can turn into a gun and which converts their own mass into bullets is at an advantage there, as they have unlimited bullets and can't be disarmed. A man with a gun attached to a chain, however, is at a relative advantage to a man whose gun is simply held, but far less than a man who can change his own limbs. Adolin is the man with the gun on a chain in this example, as anyone with a fabrial has access to the surges, yet would still be an ordinary character. He isn't a Knight and so can't use the surges in the same way, nor does he need to swear Oaths, any more than someone using a fabrial does. He is in the middle, which is where an Edgedancer stands, only he isn't an Edgedancer, but almost.

That is not my point. The fact, that Adolin would be the only one like this would make him special. Like I already said, distinguished by an unusual quality.

[Ixthos he/him]

17 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That is not my point. The fact, that Adolin would be the only one like this would make him special. Like I already said, distinguished by an unusual quality.

Fair enough - I personally don't mind either way if Adolin is or isn't special, but I think he will be and I think the story would be the stronger for it, but I respect your opinion on how this would cause issues. One possible solution would be for Adolin to not be the only one, with a few other shardbearers taking the same route after seeing how Adolin has gained skills, but I think that being special in a way that is far less effective than the main series method of being special, especially if that means fighting the jealousy that it can cause in oneself could provide good character growth for Adolin, though I don't think he would need that. I've just made a thread for anyone who want to continue this discussion, though I don't think I will be taking part :-P I don't mind either way, though I think a more enjoyable story lies down one path, rather than another. The thread is over here.

 

Anyhow, I hope this can be the last of this subject on this thread at this point, as I'm curious as to what others think on this point: if Adolin does progress as I theorise he will, would Maya gain shapeshifting abilities?

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

And good luck to yours as well! :-) I'm actually curious about what you think it might be - if you've already posted a topic about it, please let me know :-)

 

Not exactly like an Honourblade, but kinda :-) I think all the Honourblades allow the user to channel the surges with their own bodies, but this would require the surges to go through Maya, in a sense similar to what Higher spren can normally do, as Syl showed with Adhesion.

Just to give an example of how I think Adolin could use a surge, the main idea I had was that Adolin would lay the flat of Maya on someone, and then the healing surge would pass through her into them, so sort of the opposite of what shardblades normally do, his would be a blade that heals as well.

I would actually like to see Adolin interceding to ask the Nightwatcher or Cultivation to help Maya, though I suspect they might not have to directly interfere to restore her, rather telling Adolin what to do.

 

Thanks :-) Maya probably can be restored by Oaths, though I don't know if Adolin would be able to do that - it might be that saying the Oaths could restore her, but there might be another route Adolin takes that isn't a complete fix, but helps her. I think parts of her are permanently gone, much like in (Emperor's Soul spoiler:)

  Reveal hidden contents

The Emperor's original soul was gone, but an approximation was made which was very close.

I think that parts of her were lost when the bond was destroyed, and so they can be replaced or patched, but the scars would remain, as would the loss of whatever information was stored in them, unless the spiritual part could be read and used as a template to restore missing memories.

 

One thing that would be very interesting would be if what Adolin does fixes her enough that if he died she would be fully intact again and able to bond a Knight, or at least intact enough to form a proper Nahel bond, and that person completes healing her, but only because of Adolin starting the process. Having to give her up or dying only for that to fully heal her would be rough.

I have posted it in another thread but I would be happy to post the gist of it here. My theory is actually sorta a combination of a few separate people's theories into one. I think that the bond a shardbearer has with a dead shardblade is a faux bond. I think the Connection you form with the dead blade is what helps the faux bond form. The faux bond then allows you to summon and desummon the dead shardblade. I think Adolin's actions have resulted in the strengthening of his connection to Maya. That is why I think he is getting a little more out of what the bond already can do (summon the blade faster, and hear Maya). I believe it is substantiated that anytime a dead shardblade is summoned, the spren is screaming. I think a radiant touching the blade helps the shardbearer hear what is already there, and Adolin's increased connection allows him to hear Maya clearer, and she begin to recognize him as a person, and not just her wielder. I think this is hinted regarding Dalinar (when fighting a chasm fiend Dalinar feels energy and eagerness from oathbringer, just like when Adolin fights the Thunderclast. When Dalinar finds Oathbringer after Sadeas dies, the stormfather says that oathbringer remembers Dalinar and hates him less than it hates others, to me just like Maya recognizing Adolin). So this leads me to the question of "then why hasn't it been done before?" For me, I think the WoB that I interpret as saying something of Maya was torn out, hints that that needs to be restored before she can be fully revived. I theorize that using the increased connection Adolin has forged with Maya as a scaffolding or blue print, Dalinar can supercharge it with investiture (like he has done with Shallan's illusions, and at the battle of thayla) repairing what was ripped out, and allowing Maya and Adolin to bond in truth. For me, this would solve the concern one sign has that Adolin would not be as strong a part of Maya's revival, while also Adolin not being singularly and overwhelming special which is the concern of the other side. To me, Adolin's hard work would be validated, it would be a unique experience to him, it would potentially be supported by foreshadowing, explain why it is so hard to be done in the past and be a process that could be replicated which could restore the other dead spren and heal the rift between the high spren and the humans, resulting in a huge boon for humanity against Odium. Lol that got longer than I intended. But that is my theory.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I don't really understand the objections to Adolin being "special". We have a lot of major characters who are "special' and unique in-world. Kaladin is the first Windrunner in centuries, and Syl is particularly important in honorspren society, Dalinar is a Bondsmith, and has displayed abilities that previous Bondsmiths have not as well as having received the personal attention of two Shards. Szeth has been treated as Nale's personal protegee, and seems to have been somebody important in Shin society before his exile, and he's currently the custodian of Nightblood. Venli is the first ever singer/listener Radiant. Renarin is bonded to a corrupted spren. Litt has a unique ability that no other character has or as far as we know has ever had.

Main characters tend to be 'special' in some way.

I know some people are attached to him as the " token normal", but I don't think he can both stay in the main cast and be a token normal. He's simply too outclassed by the dangers they are facing.

This is not a series where you're going to get away with having a token normal that maintains a prominent role in the main cast. I think Navani's role as of Oathbringer is the closest you're going to get, and Adolin isn't suited for planning/organization. The only non-direct combat role he'd be really good at is teaching Shardblade use, and that, while certainly important logistically is going to be largely a background role.