worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[xinoehp512 he/him]

You know, I always considered the ASL to be primarily Ritual-based, because of the Natural/Ritual dichotomy. That doesn't fit in well with your idea, though...

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Here's an idea if we want to split up the innate magic in a way that is more evenly divided.

One half of the Innate's can see the ritual side of things, the other can see the natural side. The ritual side works as explained. But the natural side can see belief. It can look at people and see what they believe and see how they view the world. It can also show you what would make them change their mind. If the ritual side is viewing the spiritwebs and translating that into symbols, the natural side is looking at the cognitive aspects (how they see and perceive the world) and translating that into language. 

We could easily divide this across gender lines, which would pose interesting things with one gender being much more ritual oriented and the other more natural oriented. It would also have the added affect of women being highly valued as speakers and stateswomen.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

8 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Here's an idea if we want to split up the innate magic in a way that is more evenly divided.

One half of the Innate's can see the ritual side of things, the other can see the natural side. The ritual side works as explained. But the natural side can see belief. It can look at people and see what they believe and see how they view the world. It can also show you what would make them change their mind. If the ritual side is viewing the spiritwebs and translating that into symbols, the natural side is looking at the cognitive aspects (how they see and perceive the world) and translating that into language. 

We could easily divide this across gender lines, which would pose interesting things with one gender being much more ritual oriented and the other more natural oriented. It would also have the added affect of women being highly valued as speakers and stateswomen.

I think that's a cool idea!

But again, let's not do gender divides. If we divide it by gender one side will be very scholarly while the other will be more wishy-washy.  I would rather a person was able to pursue whatever life they want.... not what their gender dictates.

We could make the split based on personality types.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

I think the initial reason behind doing some gender divide was in order to provide some reason why women wouldn't be inferior to men without using a lot of handwavium. Otherwise the gender divide would be pretty clear, men would be adventuring and women in the house. This isn't a modern society, and the fighting style is such that women are in a severe disadvantage biologically.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

1 minute ago, MacThorstenson said:

I think the initial reason behind doing some gender divide was in order to provide some reason why women wouldn't be inferior to men without using a lot of handwavium. Otherwise the gender divide would be pretty clear, men would be adventuring and women in the house. This isn't a modern society, and the fighting style is such that women are in a severe disadvantage biologically.

This is also not our society of the medieval ages. It is a different world altogether. With Natural magic..... Anyone can do anything..... What does it matter if you're 50lb heavier than a woman if she has the strength of a thousand men? With Natural magic these sorta things would fade rather fast. 

Also, I know this isn't what you mean, but there is no reason woman are inferior to men. No handwavium required.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

31 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

This is also not our society of the medieval ages. It is a different world altogether. With Natural magic..... Anyone can do anything..... What does it matter if you're 50lb heavier than a woman if she has the strength of a thousand men? With Natural magic these sorta things would fade rather fast. 

Also, I know this isn't what you mean, but there is no reason woman are inferior to men. No handwavium required.

Before I say anything else, please understand that its not my intention to say anything offensive or sexist. Lets all keep cool heads while discussing this as it is a touchy subject in the real world and all of us are coming from different backgrounds with this. 

That said, I would like to respectfully disagree, and I would like to note that what I was saying was trying to refer to the culture as a whole and not what our characters can do.

Because like you said, we can use natural magic for our characters. My concern with using natural magic on a large scale is that it would result in a few extraordinary people, and not necessarily equality between the genders.

We have a few notable examples of strong women in our history as a world, and I think that natural magic would result in something similar. 

Those extraordinary people would most likely be our characters, but they would still live in a world where women are physically weaker than men. Which means that they would need to be fighting that judgement and persecution every time they enter a place with people.

And while it is definitely true that this is not our medieval world, there are a lot of similarities. Namely that physical strength is likely going to be one of the most valued traits for a person. People are still farming via plows and horses, they are loading crates onto ships by hand. They are still fighting hand to hand. Unfortunately this is the one area where women tend to fall behind men. So if we intend to men and women to be equal in the society, we would need someway to counter the fact that the strength of women tends to be lower than the strength of men.

I would point out that intellectually men and women would easily be equals. They both have equal capacity for ritual magic and thus would be considered equal in magical circles.

EDIT: I would also like to say, like others had, that due to the fact that Kuria is a trade kingdom, it would tend to be more egalitarian. And I don't think that we need to take any artistic licence to say that women in shops or in magic or politics are equal. 

But I do think that due to the logical magic system, people would tend to approach things like this logically. Women aren't any worse then men in politics, or in science, finance, or education. But when it comes to fighting a war, or the physical labor of farming, there would be difference in ability logically.

Edited March 14, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[+Sorana she/her]

As I kind of started this discussion, I'm sorry. I didn't want it to end in a larger fundamental discussion.

I like the idea with the two sides of magic. A lot actually. For me that's two sides of the same coin and I like something like that. Maybe we could also state, that the largest things need both of them.

As it's a fantasy setting, you can always claim that everybody is equal, but I personally like it, when not everybody can do the same, when there are differences. It makes it more interesting and you need others to achieve the best possible result, which is really important for me in a rp. If I can do anything on my own, I can start a game on my computer.

But I can see that it is a difficult topic, and maybe it would be wise to set it as a typical everybody is equal setting. Yes it's not really logical when it comes to brute strength, but if more people feel comfortable with it, then that would be the way to go, imo.

Feel free to ignore this, I haven't been part of the worldbuilding team so far and I don't want to intrude. I simply felt a bit responsible for the whole topic.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

I'm sorry for the above post. upon rereading it, it's a lot more aggressive then I had intended.

I honestly think the gender divides would be a lot weaker in this setting then on our own world, but seriously, I don't mind it going either way. I was wanting to avoid giving anyone the grounds to say anything nasty about us. (I have some....... Interesting family members.) I'm okay with however you guys want to play this. As previously stated, it won't affect players that much no matter how we do it. And again, sorry for the aggressive post.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

@Steel Inquisitive @MacThorstenson 

I have a proposal! I personally like the gender divide, I think it makes the system unique and gives people a need/reason to work together. However, perhaps the divide could be slightly more fluid. Maybe (roughly) 3/4's of all women Innates are more naturally (or ritually, whatever we choose) inclined, and the other quarter are an "outlier" group, switching into the opposite inclination. This would also go for the men. Then, you'd have some overlap in society with the groups mingling, but still have a majority dominance in one field or another. This might be too complicated though. I don't much care how we do it, but for the record I like the divide.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

1 hour ago, ZincAboutIt said:

@Steel Inquisitive @MacThorstenson 

I have a proposal! I personally like the gender divide, I think it makes the system unique and gives people a need/reason to work together. However, perhaps the divide could be slightly more fluid. Maybe (roughly) 3/4's of all women Innates are more naturally (or ritually, whatever we choose) inclined, and the other quarter are an "outlier" group, switching into the opposite inclination. This would also go for the men. Then, you'd have some overlap in society with the groups mingling, but still have a majority dominance in one field or another. This might be too complicated though. I don't much care how we do it, but for the record I like the divide.

Something similar occurs naturally in the real world- men are more specially minded than women 3/4's of the time, and women are more socially/facially minded 3/4's of the time. If it's tied to that kind of thing, then it actually makes sense. 

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just now, ShadowLord_Lith said:

Something similar occurs naturally in the real world- men are more specially minded than women 3/4's of the time, and women are more socially/facially minded 3/4's of the time. If it's tied to that kind of thing, then it actually makes sense. 

Wooo accidentally factual! 

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

Also accidentally fascial.

[kenod]

16 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

Here's an idea if we want to split up the innate magic in a way that is more evenly divided.

One half of the Innate's can see the ritual side of things, the other can see the natural side. The ritual side works as explained. But the natural side can see belief. It can look at people and see what they believe and see how they view the world. It can also show you what would make them change their mind. If the ritual side is viewing the spiritwebs and translating that into symbols, the natural side is looking at the cognitive aspects (how they see and perceive the world) and translating that into language. 

We could easily divide this across gender lines, which would pose interesting things with one gender being much more ritual oriented and the other more natural oriented. It would also have the added affect of women being highly valued as speakers and stateswomen.

I'm not really sure about this form of the natural side of Innate magic. It doesn't really seem that magical to me, more like a form of enhanced social skills. To me, it would make more sense if they could see more than just this, also seeing things like a person's health, or where magic concentrates, probably like seeing auras. These auras would allow you get an idea of a person's emotions and feelings, but they would also tell you additional things about them, like their health, or if they are Innates or people affected by Natural magic. They'd probably also be able to see where energy concentrates, such as spotting haunted locations, objects with a magical nature, Investure crystals, hot spots, etc.

1 hour ago, ZincAboutIt said:

@Steel Inquisitive @MacThorstenson 

I have a proposal! I personally like the gender divide, I think it makes the system unique and gives people a need/reason to work together. However, perhaps the divide could be slightly more fluid. Maybe (roughly) 3/4's of all women Innates are more naturally (or ritually, whatever we choose) inclined, and the other quarter are an "outlier" group, switching into the opposite inclination. This would also go for the men. Then, you'd have some overlap in society with the groups mingling, but still have a majority dominance in one field or another. This might be too complicated though. I don't much care how we do it, but for the record I like the divide.

Seems interesting. That makes me wonder though, if we have a gender divide (even an incomplete one), how would this work with transgender people, or people who use magic to do gender reassignments?

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

4 minutes ago, kenod said:

I'm not really sure about this form of the natural side of Innate magic. It doesn't really seem that magical to me, more like a form of enhanced social skills. To me, it would make more sense if they could see more than just this, also seeing things like a person's health, or where magic concentrates, probably like seeing auras. These auras would allow you get an idea of a person's emotions and feelings, but they would also tell you additional things about them, like their health, or if they are Innates or people affected by Natural magic. They'd probably also be able to see where energy concentrates, such as spotting haunted locations, objects with a magical nature, Investure crystals, hot spots, etc.

Seems interesting. That makes me wonder though, if we have a gender divide (even an incomplete one), how would this work with transgender people, or people who use magic to do gender reassignments?

1. I agree with you, I like your ideas about innate natural magic. It feels almost oriental. 

2. I've been wondering about that. And what about genderfluid people? What should the stance if the world be? And what's the stance of the people and culture?

[Sherlock Holmes he/him]

I’m assuming that this is based on biology, not psychology...

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

3 minutes ago, kenod said:

I'm not really sure about this form of the natural side of Innate magic. It doesn't really seem that magical to me, more like a form of enhanced social skills. To me, it would make more sense if they could see more than just this, also seeing things like a person's health, or where magic concentrates, probably like seeing auras. These auras would allow you get an idea of a person's emotions and feelings, but they would also tell you additional things about them, like their health, or if they are Innates or people affected by Natural magic. They'd probably also be able to see where energy concentrates, such as spotting haunted locations, objects with a magical nature, Investure crystals, hot spots, etc.

Seems interesting. That makes me wonder though, if we have a gender divide (even an incomplete one), how would this work with transgender people, or people who use magic to do gender reassignments?

In this first point, your elaboration is what I would definitely prefer.

In the second point, I think that the line would fuzz in that regard. We are discussing "gender" here but I was thinking Innate magic would usually follow biological sex, irrespective of gender. I also think that perhaps the Innate magic would respond to a transgender person in kind, flipping someone into the "outlier" portion of their sex. With Natural magic being fueled by belief, I imagine that you could also explain it this way, that the Innate's self-perception has channeled their magic into the opposite expression. I also think that due to Natural magic making both the landscape and humanity itself somewhat "fluid," the idea of gender fluidity would be far less controversial in most societies in this world than one might think for a "medieval" landscape. I think that it would probably be uncommon in relation to the general population, and outside the expected norm, but not abhorrent or taboo. 

[kenod]

7 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

I’m assuming that this is based on biology, not psychology...

 

3 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

In this first point, your elaboration is what I would definitely prefer.

In the second point, I think that the line would fuzz in that regard. We are discussing "gender" here but I was thinking Innate magic would usually follow biological sex, irrespective of gender. I also think that perhaps the Innate magic would respond to a transgender person in kind, flipping someone into the "outlier" portion of their sex. With Natural magic being fueled by belief, I imagine that you could also explain it this way, that the Innate's self-perception has channeled their magic into the opposite expression. I also think that due to Natural magic making both the landscape and humanity itself somewhat "fluid," the idea of gender fluidity would be far less controversial in most societies in this world than one might think for a "medieval" landscape. I think that it would probably be uncommon in relation to the general population, and outside the expected norm, but not abhorrent or taboo. 

The thing is that using biological sex would create it's own problems, since it would (I think) be possible to use magic to switch gender, or in rare cases create a new one (I can even see this being the mages' version of having experimented in collage). You also have to consider intersex people (though this would probably just be a tossup, especially if Innate magic doesn't strictly follow gender lines).

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just now, kenod said:

 

The thing is that using biological sex would create it's own problems, since it would (I think) be possible to use magic to switch gender, or in rare cases create a new one (I can even see this being the mages' version of having experimented in collage). You also have to consider intersex people (though this would probably just be a tossup, especially if Innate magic doesn't strictly follow gender lines).

Yeah that is a sticking point, and I'm not sure if I have a way to sew this up as neatly as I'd probably like to. I think that if you were to begin altering your own gender or creating a new one, you could possibly run the risk of messing with your own Innate magic (and this is just Innate magic we're talking about - if a non-Innate ritual mage were to do this it might work out just fine). It could simply be a risk that some consider worth it, others not. If you're re-writing enough of yourself with Ritual magic, maybe the Innate gift could get suppressed, or edited out? I'm just throwing stuff out here.

I do think intersex people would be a tossup on this one, perhaps the Innate magic would just pick one and be done with it?

[kenod]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

Yeah that is a sticking point, and I'm not sure if I have a way to sew this up as neatly as I'd probably like to. I think that if you were to begin altering your own gender or creating a new one, you could possibly run the risk of messing with your own Innate magic (and this is just Innate magic we're talking about - if a non-Innate ritual mage were to do this it might work out just fine). It could simply be a risk that some consider worth it, others not. If you're re-writing enough of yourself with Ritual magic, maybe the Innate gift could get suppressed, or edited out? I'm just throwing stuff out here.

I do think intersex people would be a tossup on this one, perhaps the Innate magic would just pick one and be done with it?

My personal take on it, if magic isn't perfectly divided across gender lines: The type of Innate magic a person has doesn't change if their physical gender changes, since it's part of their spiritweb, not their body. People who are trans, gender neutral or intersex will have their type of Innate magic decided at birth, but because this doesn't strictly follow gender lines both types of Innate magic will be possible, so nobody knows if they get the Innate magic fitting with their physical gender or mental gender, so anyone who creates a character or NPC who is not cisgender can decide for themselves.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just now, kenod said:

My personal take on it, if magic isn't perfectly divided across gender lines: The type of Innate magic a person has doesn't change if their physical gender changes, since it's part of their spiritweb, not their body. People who are trans, gender neutral or intersex will have their type of Innate magic decided at birth, but because this doesn't strictly follow gender lines both types of Innate magic will be possible, so nobody knows if they get the Innate magic fitting with their physical gender or mental gender, so anyone who creates a character or NPC who is not cisgender can decide for themselves.

This seems fine. I think the allowance for the "outlier" group within the divide would accommodate for this nicely. That way, anyone can technically be anywhere. I think that those whose Innate ability does not follow physical gender would face - not stigma, more like the slight discomfort of being a minority group. Not a terrible discomfort, or some kind of true oppression, because it's a common enough thing. But the slight feeling of being outside the majority would certainly happen in these circles, even if it's not supposed to happen officially. The outlier group would clump together and the majority would also, with cooperation between them but also a preference for someone more familiar. I say this mostly for character development purposes than any kind of real RP scenario, especially since the plotline won't revolve solely around the academy. I also think that Innate ritualists would probably act elitist towards non-Innate ritualists. The internal politics of the academy could be an entire RP all to itself...

[kenod]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

The internal politics of the academy could be an entire RP all to itself...

...

Now I'm wondering about the weird college hi-jinks mages would get up to.

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just now, kenod said:

Now I'm wondering about the weird college hi-jinks mages would get up to.

With that extended lifespan but endless youth... gosh the depravity  

[kenod]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

With that extended lifespan but endless youth... gosh the depravity  

I think I said it before, but I expect gender reassignment spells to become the local version of experimenting in college. They'd probably also use magic to alter their brain chemistry to get high, or cultivate weed and shrooms in the greenhouses with magical plants (magic mushroom pun fully intended).

[+ZincAboutIt she/her]

Just now, kenod said:

I think I said it before, but I expect gender reassignment spells to become the local version of experimenting in college. They'd probably also use magic to alter their brain chemistry to get high, or cultivate weed and shrooms in the greenhouses with magical plants (magic mushroom pun fully intended).

You'd have professors finding out and being supremely disappointed that they used the incorrect enchantment for getting high.

"Foolish acolytes, I will show you the true path to getting lit as hecc."

[kenod]

4 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

You'd have professors finding out and being supremely disappointed that they used the incorrect enchantment for getting high.

"Foolish acolytes, I will show you the true path to getting lit as hecc."

*Casts anti-gravity spell*

Edit:
Spells that alter someone's brain chemistry might be heavily restricted though, since you could do some really dark things that way.

Edited March 14, 2019 by kenod