Unpopular Brandon Sanderson Opinions

[Treamayne]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:44 AM, Ookla the Magician said:

Unpopular RoW opinion:

Lirrin was a much more aggravating character to read about than Moash could ever dream of being. I literally hate him so much, probably on an irrational level.

(I know Moash murdered people but this has nothing to do with characters morals/ crimes, reading about Lirrin just filled me with a pure rage when Moash was just kinda . . . there).

  Hide contents

and I know Lirrin and Kaladin make up at the end of the book but . . .

I don't know, what he said in that scene in the surgery room will haunt me

I actually don't even hate Moash, I find him kind of boring if I'm being honest. He is essential to RoW's plot though, so I don't think it's bad writing or anything, he's just not the kind of villain I love to hate.

Having grown up with a mentally and emotionally abusive father, I too find Lirin to be one of the worst villains characters in the series. I've hated him since WoK and the feeling only grew with each scene he appears. What's worse is that nobody (including Kaladin - though it should not fall to him) calls him on it.

I would not be surprised to find the events at the climax of RoW to be a step forward that only leads to two steps backward in SA5.

My own father is 20 years dead, and my mother is still working through the trauma he caused her. So, while I think many of the traumas and neuro-divergencies are well portrayed in the series - I find the representation of this kind of trauma to be largely ignored or written off as Kaladin's depression (and while the trauma likely reinforces the depression - they are different things requiring different coping skills and mechanisms).

Edited December 1, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Lord Spirit he/him]

Unpopular opinion: Frugal was better than Yumi. 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Frugal spoilers

Spoiler

People complain about the representation of suicidal tendencies, however, it's actually accurate to some peoples experiences with depression, etc.

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Lego Mistborn

[Mason Wheeler]

After reading the previews the newsletter sent out, I thought Frugal Wizard was going to be the one I liked the second-most, after Sunlit Man.  Instead it turned out to be the one I enjoyed the least out of the four.  The

Spoiler

main character we thought was a good guy turns out to be a bad guy who ends up finding an estoteric redemption in a different world

plot felt to me like a retread of

Spoiler

Snapshot

more than anything.  On Writing Excuses, Brandon & co. talk a lot about narrative promises.  Well, the promise we got was "Jason Bourne in a medieval parallel dimension," and I really wanted to read that story.  But it wasn't what we got.

[Dunkum he/him]

3 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Well, the promise we got was "Jason Bourne in a medieval parallel dimension," and I really wanted to read that story.  But it wasn't what we got.

Is that the promise we got? I certainly never had that impression, but I also never read any promo material or the like. from just the book itself I never thought we were getting Jason Bourne.

[J. Magi she/her]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:16 PM, Treamayne said:

Having grown up with a mentally and emotionally abusive father, I too find Lirin to be one of the worst villains characters in the series. I've hated him since WoK and the feeling only grew with each scene he appears. What's worse is that nobody (including Kaladin - though it should not fall to him) calls him on it.

I would not be surprised to find the events at the climax of RoW to be a step forward that only leads to two steps backward in SA5.

My own father is 20 years dead, and my mother is still working through the trauma he caused her. So, while I think many of the traumas and neuro-divergencies are well portrayed in the series - I find the representation of this kind of trauma to be largely ignored or written off as Kaladin's depression (and while the trauma likely reinforces the depression - they are different things requiring different coping skills and mechanisms).

I'm so sorry about your experiences, and I can totally understand how that could relate to Lirrin and Kaladin's relationship. 

For me, I've struggles with lots of (un-diagnosed) depression and anxiety, and the idea of someone treating me the way Lirrin does to Kaladin is mortifying (Especially since I find my depression is very similar to his). I agree that the books really haven't touched enough on how awful he is, and I'm hoping for some of that in SA5 (like you said). 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Ookla the Magician

[Mason Wheeler]

2 hours ago, Dunkum said:

Is that the promise we got? I certainly never had that impression, but I also never read any promo material or the like. from just the book itself I never thought we were getting Jason Bourne.

"I just woke up in an unfamiliar place.  I don't know where I am or even who I am, but I'm able to do cool things that the normal people around me can't do.  And there are people hunting me."  Sure sounds like a Bourne story to me...

[Dunkum he/him]

44 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

"I just woke up in an unfamiliar place.  I don't know where I am or even who I am, but I'm able to do cool things that the normal people around me can't do.  And there are people hunting me."  Sure sounds like a Bourne story to me...

Sure, if you phrase it like that. but if you phrase things vaguely enough, you can make Mistborn sound like Little Orphan Annie. the question is, where did that come from? its not directly from the book that I can see. Is it from any pre-release material or interviews or some such? and to be clear that's an honest question - I went into all 4 secret project books blind. the only thing I knew going in is that 1 of them was non-cosmere - so if that quote is from Brandon, or someone affiliated with him, I agree it would be at least a little misleading

[Mason Wheeler]

50 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Sure, if you phrase it like that. but if you phrase things vaguely enough, you can make Mistborn sound like Little Orphan Annie. the question is, where did that come from? its not directly from the book that I can see. Is it from any pre-release material or interviews or some such? and to be clear that's an honest question - I went into all 4 secret project books blind. the only thing I knew going in is that 1 of them was non-cosmere - so if that quote is from Brandon, or someone affiliated with him, I agree it would be at least a little misleading

Yeah, that's not a direct quotation, but don't you agree that it's a pretty accurate overview of the "feel" of the first few chapters?

[Dunkum he/him]

1 hour ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Yeah, that's not a direct quotation, but don't you agree that it's a pretty accurate overview of the "feel" of the first few chapters?

kind of, but I wouldn't put it that way, personally. I got more "unreliable narrator - cyberpunk edition" vibes than "secret agent with amnesia". Like I said, my read of the book wasn't going in a Jason Bourne direction. I don't really recall exactly what I was thinking at the time, but it was definitely closer to what we actually got. I can sort of see how you'd arrive there but it definitely wasn't how I saw it.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

"I just woke up in an unfamiliar place.  I don't know where I am or even who I am, but I'm able to do cool things that the normal people around me can't do.  And there are people hunting me."  Sure sounds like a Bourne story to me...

5 hours ago, Dunkum said:

Sure, if you phrase it like that. but if you phrase things vaguely enough, you can make Mistborn sound like Little Orphan Annie. the question is, where did that come from? its not directly from the book that I can see. Is it from any pre-release material or interviews or some such? and to be clear that's an honest question - I went into all 4 secret project books blind. the only thing I knew going in is that 1 of them was non-cosmere - so if that quote is from Brandon, or someone affiliated with him, I agree it would be at least a little misleading

Here's the WoB (I also went into SP2 blind, and only found this after-the-fact):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Generally, books form when multiple ideas stewing in the back of my brain combine in interesting ways. The most obvious idea for this one [The Frugal Wizard's Handbook for Surviving Medieval England] is my desire to do a Jason Bourne type story. I know it’s a little tropey, but there’s something about me that genuinely loves the type of story where you find out about the characters as they remember who they are.  I think it’s because I love books structured in such a way that the reader and the character feel the same things at the same times.

There’s this beautiful sense of discovery to a book, and though it could (obviously) get old, I personally enjoy the occasional story where you get to enhance that feeling by starting with a blank slate character. (When I’d GM role-playing games, I loved to have all the characters start with no memory and the players discover and develop them as they went.)  So, I hope you’ll forgive me for using a trope that can sometimes be a little eye-rolly (amnesia). I promise I do some interesting things with it.

The other big idea that led to this was one I’ve had for years about “time-travel tourism.” A lot of time travel stories focus on changing (or not changing) the present. I wanted to throw that worry out the window and play with the idea of “past as playground.” You can hear Dan and I discuss this concept (though I’d already written this book in secret by then) on episode 18 of our Intentionally Blank podcast: “Time Travel Disaster Tourism.” As these two ideas melded into “Time Traveling Jason Bourne,” I knew I had something that would be fun.

The final element that connected here was me realizing—as I started working on this—the uncomfortable nature of the topic. Playing with the past meant playing with people’s lives, and there were some parts of this that I felt I needed to hang a lantern on. That’s when I decided to use interjections from the Frugal Wizard’s handbook. (I’d actually had this idea as a title with no context years before.) I figured I could highlight the inherent ridiculous—and somewhat immoral—nature of the basic premise with some satire, making it okay to laugh at the situation all while we talked about human nature. Because I think this is really something we’d do if we had the chance to travel to the past without consequences in the future. So it’s worth talking about it in narrative. That’s part of what SF/F is for—exploring the impossible now so that when some impossible things become reality, we as a society have already had a chance to investigate how we feel about the subject.

Anyway, those three things combined into this story. While Secret Project #1 has a fairy-tale tone, I intend this one (when in the protagonist’s viewpoint) to be more action/adventure. The Frugal Wizard inserts are comedic, but the main text is not a comedy, save for the occasional sarcastic or amusing comment by the narrator.

Secret Project #2 Reveal and Livestream (March 10, 2022)

 

[Ookla she/her]

May I interject with a comment? You're welcome to take it or leave it as you please.

As an author, I may have ideas stewing in my head for a long while, and may even decide to do something that's technically been done before--however, by the time I actually finish the project, it's been through so many iterations and been changed so many times that upon the reread, there's hardly anything left of the original prompt. My brain just likes to make stories evolve. I can't say for sure, but I think it's possible something similar might be what happened with Frugal Wizard. (Shrug) As I said, take it or leave it.

To be fair, though, Frugal Wizard is my least favorite of the Secret Projects. I didn't like it nearly as much as I enjoyed the other three.

As for my own unpopular opinions: I think Shallan is one of the best characters and the most fun to read. (It's possible this isn't as unpopular as it seems to me, but I feel like a lot of people complain about Shallan.) Meanwhile, I actually don't really enjoy the majority of Kaladin's chapters, and I think Lift is awesome (and not just when she's had plenty of food, either ). And while I don't like Moash, I feel like it would be characteristic of Sanderson to give the guy a redemption arc.

[Dunkum he/him]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Here's the WoB (I also went into SP2 blind, and only found this after-the-fact):

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Generally, books form when multiple ideas stewing in the back of my brain combine in interesting ways. The most obvious idea for this one [The Frugal Wizard's Handbook for Surviving Medieval England] is my desire to do a Jason Bourne type story. I know it’s a little tropey, but there’s something about me that genuinely loves the type of story where you find out about the characters as they remember who they are.  I think it’s because I love books structured in such a way that the reader and the character feel the same things at the same times.

There’s this beautiful sense of discovery to a book, and though it could (obviously) get old, I personally enjoy the occasional story where you get to enhance that feeling by starting with a blank slate character. (When I’d GM role-playing games, I loved to have all the characters start with no memory and the players discover and develop them as they went.)  So, I hope you’ll forgive me for using a trope that can sometimes be a little eye-rolly (amnesia). I promise I do some interesting things with it.

The other big idea that led to this was one I’ve had for years about “time-travel tourism.” A lot of time travel stories focus on changing (or not changing) the present. I wanted to throw that worry out the window and play with the idea of “past as playground.” You can hear Dan and I discuss this concept (though I’d already written this book in secret by then) on episode 18 of our Intentionally Blank podcast: “Time Travel Disaster Tourism.” As these two ideas melded into “Time Traveling Jason Bourne,” I knew I had something that would be fun.

The final element that connected here was me realizing—as I started working on this—the uncomfortable nature of the topic. Playing with the past meant playing with people’s lives, and there were some parts of this that I felt I needed to hang a lantern on. That’s when I decided to use interjections from the Frugal Wizard’s handbook. (I’d actually had this idea as a title with no context years before.) I figured I could highlight the inherent ridiculous—and somewhat immoral—nature of the basic premise with some satire, making it okay to laugh at the situation all while we talked about human nature. Because I think this is really something we’d do if we had the chance to travel to the past without consequences in the future. So it’s worth talking about it in narrative. That’s part of what SF/F is for—exploring the impossible now so that when some impossible things become reality, we as a society have already had a chance to investigate how we feel about the subject.

Anyway, those three things combined into this story. While Secret Project #1 has a fairy-tale tone, I intend this one (when in the protagonist’s viewpoint) to be more action/adventure. The Frugal Wizard inserts are comedic, but the main text is not a comedy, save for the occasional sarcastic or amusing comment by the narrator.

Secret Project #2 Reveal and Livestream (March 10, 2022)

 

yea, something like that would definitely put a different spin on it. if i'd been going in expecting that, i might have been a bit disappointed too. it would have flavored the read a bit differently at least

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, Dunkum said:

kind of, but I wouldn't put it that way, personally. I got more "unreliable narrator - cyberpunk edition" vibes than "secret agent with amnesia". Like I said, my read of the book wasn't going in a Jason Bourne direction. I don't really recall exactly what I was thinking at the time, but it was definitely closer to what we actually got. I can sort of see how you'd arrive there but it definitely wasn't how I saw it.

1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

yea, something like that would definitely put a different spin on it. if i'd been going in expecting that, i might have been a bit disappointed too. it would have flavored the read a bit differently at least

I think the key take-away for that WoB is not the "secret agent with amnesia" trope - just the "Character discovers themselves with the reader" facet that Sanderson discussed. (Un)Fortunately, Bourne happens to be the currently most recognizable example of this trope (though I prefer the Novels - which have almost nothing in common with the movies), and I think that is why he referenced Bourne. For example, he could have referenced Corwin (Chronicles in Amber), but I doubt as many people would make the connection. 

 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Male]

I don’t like Renarin. He is eager, but also, self pitying.

[J. Magi she/her]

9 hours ago, OokIa the Believer said:

I don’t like Renarin. He is eager, but also, self pitying.

hmmm . . . I've always kind of been on the fence about him. One the one hand, I relate to him a lot for a few reasons. I think he makes a pretty good contrast with Adolin, in a story structure sense, and I think he's a really good character. He does a good job of showing us that all the Alethi nobility aren't the same, from the very beginning of the story. He does have some really good moments too, like when he comforted drunk Dalinor in the OB flashbacks. 

But on the other hand, like you said, it seems he never steps up to his problems or has any major character development. I could completely understand how he acted and even the self pitying thing in the first book, but I feel like he hasn't changed at all since then when he had every opportunity and reason to get 'stronger' or maybe more independent. I'm not saying he should change as a person, or loose any of his quirks, that's not right (and I believe he's meant to have Autism, which is super cool on the representation side of things). But I do think he could maybe try and make more decisions for himself. It kind of feels like everyone is dragging him around from place to place, and he never decides to do anything. The lack of character development makes him seem repetitive and boring in the later books, imo.

Perhaps SA5 will fix things, or give him some time to shine.

So . . . I can't really decide if I like him or not. He's certainly an integral part of the story, and I'm glad he's there. I think Brandon could have done more with his character development, but considering how many characters he juggles with this series, it's understandable for someone to get sidelined. I don't think Renarin is a bad character, but he isn't going on my list of favorite characters anytime soon.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Ookla the Magician

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

I think the Well of Ascension is the worst Mistborn book. Vin & Elend are the least interesting characters and the whole book all they do is refuse to think their worthy of each other. All the plots and adventures of the first book felt a lot more real.

Also, I love Steris's character, shes awesome

On a different note, I dislike the Cytoverse. Not only is it distracting from books I actually want, but I also dislike Spensa. She has this amazing cast of much more interesting side characters in each book that i want to see more of, but the next book gets rid of all of them and we get a new cast! I haven't read Defiant yet, but Spensa frustrates me to no end, And I just want a Rithmatist sequel

Edited January 4 by Pineap-spider

[J. Magi she/her]

3 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

I think the Well of Ascension is the worst Mistborn book. Vin & Elend are the least interesting characters and the whole book all they do is refuse to think their worthy of each other. All the plots and adventures of the first book felt a lot more real.

I agree with this, WoA is definitly pretty slow. That being said, it does have some good points, and it makes the revelations in HoA have a really cool impact. I disagree that it didn't feel as 'real' I would argue the events of WoA takes a more realistic turn, showing the complexity and loss of war, whereas the first book glorifies combat (I'm not saying this is a negative thing, it's just a different tone). Sazed and Elend's character arcs are set up in this book, and I really like the follow through in HoA, so I think it deserves some credit for that. 

Overall though, it definitely suffers from being in the middle of the 'action packed beginning that sets up all the mysteries' book and the 'epic finale that answers all your questions' book. It's building on the story and characters but it takes a while to get there, and so it ends up being pretty slow. 

Spoiler

I do however love how sanderson handled the almost love triangle

 

Edited January 4 by justice magician

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

4 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

I think the Well of Ascension is the worst Mistborn book. Vin & Elend are the least interesting characters and the whole book all they do is refuse to think their worthy of each other. All the plots and adventures of the first book felt a lot more real.

Also, I love Steris's character, shes awesome

Yeah, WoA is definitely the worst of the trilogy. However, I feel like the last bit was so storming good and there are just some moments in that book I will praise. Imo, TLM and Alloy are worse than this one. Alloy is a really fun book that doesn't really contribute anything while TLM barely adds anything to the characters and eradicates the proper sanderlanch. TLM, I would argue, is not a Mistborn book. It's a Cosmere story set in the Mistborn world.

STERIS IS AWESOME. I love Steris.

[Mason Wheeler]

12 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

STERIS IS AWESOME. I love Steris.

Post-Alloy of Law Steris is awesome.  In the first book she was just painful.  I think Brandon heard the complaints from a lot of fans about just how bad she was (and how wrong it felt for Wax to end up with her) and retooled the character for later books, because by Shadows of Self she feels like a completely different character.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

1 minute ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Post-Alloy of Law Steris is awesome.  In the first book she was just painful.  I think Brandon heard the complaints from a lot of fans about just how bad she was (and how wrong it felt for Wax to end up with her) and retooled the character for later books, because by Shadows of Self she feels like a completely different character.

Yeah, I can see that. The last three really helped Steris. One of the things I actually liked on reread in TLM.

[J. Magi she/her]

1 hour ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Yeah, WoA is definitely the worst of the trilogy. However, I feel like the last bit was so storming good and there are just some moments in that book I will praise. Imo, TLM and Alloy are worse than this one. Alloy is a really fun book that doesn't really contribute anything while TLM barely adds anything to the characters and eradicates the proper sanderlanch. TLM, I would argue, is not a Mistborn book. It's a Cosmere story set in the Mistborn world.

STERIS IS AWESOME. I love Steris.

hmmm I would disagree with Alloy and TLM being out of place and/or not working super well in the series  . . .

I feel like the point of era 2 was to transition Mistborn from not being Cosmere involved to being fully Cosmere involved. It works like a scale, slowly becoming more and more Cosmere-y so that era 3 is less jarring from the perspective of someone who's only read era 1 and 2 (but not the other cosmere stuff). I feel like Brandon pulled it off fairly well considering it wasn't the planned course of action. Alloy doesn't have anything to do with the Cosmere, but it does set up characters that eventually will, so I wouldn't say it contributes nothing (also . . . Alloy is one of my favorite Brandon books ever so I might be biased). I really do think it helps give era 2 a base before things get more intense and complicated. 

As for the TLM I can see where your coming from, but I personally think it did add to the characters pretty well. I agree with you about the sanderlanche being just kinda 'eh' though. I try to think of TLM as less of a finale for era 2, and more as a bridge from era 2 to era 3. It was, imo, a good ending for era 2, but the focus of that book was a big finale or ending for era 2. It needed to prepare the reader for era 3, and so that extra purpose to the book makes the ending feel a little bit odd. 

As for TLM not being a mistborn book I would agree. But. . . it's my opinion that non of era 2 is a true mistborn story. Because . . . well . . . there's no mistborn in it (no, wax using the bands does not count). Not that that is a bad thing though, I truly love era 2! I just feel like mistborn isn't the best brand name for the (allow me to coin a term) Scadrial Saga. Era 2 and the story going forward won't really focus on mistborn themselves, allomancy maybe, but that's different. I'm not entirely convinced we won't ever see a fully fledged mistborn ever again, but I just don't think it will be a focus the way it was in era 1.

TL;DR: I kinda agree with you but kinda not and I rambled about it alot whoops

[The Stick77]

10 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

I think the Well of Ascension is the worst Mistborn book. Vin & Elend are the least interesting characters and the whole book all they do is refuse to think their worthy of each other. All the plots and adventures of the first book felt a lot more real.

Also, I love Steris's character, shes awesome

On a different note, I dislike the Cytoverse. Not only is it distracting from books I actually want, but I also dislike Spensa. She has this amazing cast of much more interesting side characters in each book that i want to see more of, but the next book gets rid of all of them and we get a new cast! I haven't read Defiant yet, but Spensa frustrates me to no end, And I just want a Rithmatist sequel

I don’t think those are particularly unpopular opinions apart from the cytoverse one. WoA is definitely well known to be the weakest of the original trilogy at least just because of its slower pacing. And everyone loves Steris. As for the Cytoverse there’s so much there I loved and some I didn’t. Have you read the Skyward Flight Novellas. I started them recently doing my reread before starting Defiant and its changed my opinion on the series as a whole since it gives a lot of screen time to the overlooked side cast which you’d probably like especially if you disliked Cytonic like I did.

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

2 hours ago, The Stick77 said:

I don’t think those are particularly unpopular opinions apart from the cytoverse one. WoA is definitely well known to be the weakest of the original trilogy at least just because of its slower pacing. And everyone loves Steris. As for the Cytoverse there’s so much there I loved and some I didn’t. Have you read the Skyward Flight Novellas. I started them recently doing my reread before starting Defiant and its changed my opinion on the series as a whole since it gives a lot of screen time to the overlooked side cast which you’d probably like especially if you disliked Cytonic like I did.

My main problem with WoA is how Vin and Elend interact, and I know a lot of people like those to characters. I've also heard a lot of people dislike Steris in my circles of human friends, but maybe I just have weird friends.

Again, I haven't read Defiant but I did read the novellas, And while Jorgen and FM's sections were pretty good, ReDawn was not my favorite. I'll be honest, I have no attachment to Alanik, And I struggle to care about her. The first book is so good and then we abandon all the good things just to add mediocre things, and then it happens again. Also the fact that this book is getting so much attention while Rithmatist is over ten years old and hasn't gotten anything is an injustice.

[Mason Wheeler]

7 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

I've also heard a lot of people dislike Steris in my circles of human friends, but maybe I just have weird friends.

Again, is this Alloy of Law Steris, or later Steris?  They really do seem like two distinct characters, and the latter is far more likeable than the former.