Unpopular Brandon Sanderson Opinions

[J. Magi she/her]

On 3/16/2024 at 5:01 PM, The Stormfather said:

Adolin = Crem stained Highstorm-eaten storming garbage.

631st POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But Adolin is such a Good Boy!!!

He's one of my favorite cosmere characters, why do you dislike him?

[Treamayne]

Unpopular Opinions. . . 

. . . Too many "streams." 

It used to be that each communication (blog, newsletter, Q&A or stream) was special. Now, it just seems like there are too many to keep track of, and no way to know what is safe and what is spoilery - not to mention the lack of text-based transcripts for the video events (which effectively says "if you can't stream, we don't care about keeping you informed").

[J. Magi she/her]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Unpopular Opinions. . . 

. . . Too many "streams." 

It used to be that each communication (blog, newsletter, Q&A or stream) was special. Now, it just seems like there are too many to keep track of, and no way to know what is safe and what is spoilery - not to mention the lack of text-based transcripts for the video events (which effectively says "if you can't stream, we don't care about keeping you informed").

 

Spoiler

Me, who has never watched an announcement stream, read a newsletter, or Q&A in my life, and gets all my info through the grapevine that is the Shard: 

It does sound frustrating, having to track everything down. Especially if different announcements are shared in different places, and you don't have access to some. I guess my thought is, if it's important I'll hear about it eventually lol.

I can understand wanting to be better informed though.

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, justice magician said:

It does sound frustrating, having to track everything down. Especially if different announcements are shared in different places, and you don't have access to some. I guess my thought is, if it's important I'll hear about it eventually lol.

I can understand wanting to be better informed though.

It's not so much about wanting to be "better informed" (I do think there are too many "streams") as it is that information should have more than one vehicle, and should be up-front about if the content is spoilery or not. 

In my "happy place" there would be less total "announcements" but each would have multiple methods of access to reach a greater audience per item. . .

[J. Magi she/her]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

It's not so much about wanting to be "better informed" (I do think there are too many "streams") as it is that information should have more than one vehicle, and should be up-front about if the content is spoilery or not. 

In my "happy place" there would be less total "announcements" but each would have multiple methods of access to reach a greater audience per item. . .

Ah, I see. I'll agree that that does seem overly complicated. Perhaps they'll streamline the system in the future? It seems odd they wouldn't mention spoilers at all, seeing as the majority (but not all) of the branderfans I see online haven't read everything yet.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, justice magician said:

Ah, I see. I'll agree that that does seem overly complicated. Perhaps they'll streamline the system in the future? It seems odd they wouldn't mention spoilers at all, seeing as the majority (but not all) of the branderfans I see online haven't read everything yet.

Not only that, but some of us are avoiding preview material (SA5 previews/SP5 previews) because we do not want spoilers before publication. It makes me very wary of checking out any communications, just in case. 

[J. Magi she/her]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Not only that, but some of us are avoiding preview material (SA5 previews/SP5 previews) because we do not want spoilers before publication. It makes me very wary of checking out any communications, just in case. 

True true, I've avoided reading what's out for SA5 entirely, just because I know I'd rather read it with the whole book. You'd think he'd put warnings up for that sort of stuff.

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

5 hours ago, justice magician said:

True true, I've avoided reading what's out for SA5 entirely, just because I know I'd rather read it with the whole book. You'd think he'd put warnings up for that sort of stuff.

I feel like he does though. All the videos and streams are clearly labeled if that's the topic and if he's going to read something spoilery he gives warning at that point in the video (or speech at the con) so you can bail out then.

Not to mention all the readings and wobs do end up transcribed, either via Brandon and staff or the Arcanum.

I can get feeling like there are too many streams, though people like me would absolutely prefer more. It certainly could feel overwhelming to people.

[J. Magi she/her]

Ah man . . . I miss debating in this thread . . .

Alright, here's some opinions to hopefully revive things:

-Hrathen is annoying at worst, and just okay at best. His chapters were boring to read, and I had a hard time caring about his character. The reveal that he had fallen in love with Sarene at the end felt . . . weird to me.

-Susebron is extremely underrated, I love him lol.

-I liked Steris in Alloy of Law . . . so . . .

-Adolin is my favorite Cosmere character (Honestly don't know if that one is unpopular or not lol)

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

42 minutes ago, J. Magi said:

Ah man . . . I miss debating in this thread . . .

Alright, here's some opinions to hopefully revive things:

-Hrathen is annoying at worst, and just okay at best. His chapters were boring to read, and I had a hard time caring about his character. The reveal that he had fallen in love with Sarene at the end felt . . . weird to me.

-Susebron is extremely underrated, I love him lol.

-I liked Steris in Alloy of Law . . . so . . .

-Adolin is my favorite Cosmere character (Honestly don't know if that one is unpopular or not lol)

Here, I can help you get a debate going.
That’s a pretty agreeable list, except for the first one. Hrathen is GREAT. 
Hrathen is like Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame if he chose to go on a better path, and realized that genocide is wrong. The intelligence and strength of will he has, plus his insistence that nothing is done half way makes him super fun to read. I would agree that he is the most boring POV, but I love his arc and the whole thing with his armor and the last fight. tbh, I don’t remember the “he loves Sarene” thing, and if that’s true, yeah that’s weird. Think you could provide a chapter or reference I could find that bit? One more thing, a Hrathen character pin would have been so cool looking.

[J. Magi she/her]

5 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

Here, I can help you get a debate going.
That’s a pretty agreeable list, except for the first one. Hrathen is GREAT. 
Hrathen is like Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame if he chose to go on a better path, and realized that genocide is wrong. The intelligence and strength of will he has, plus his insistence that nothing is done half way makes him super fun to read. I would agree that he is the most boring POV, but I love his arc and the whole thing with his armor and the last fight. tbh, I don’t remember the “he loves Sarene” thing, and if that’s true, yeah that’s weird. Think you could provide a chapter or reference I could find that bit? One more thing, a Hrathen character pin would have been so cool looking.

I agree that his character arc is very unique and interesting, I just felt like it wasn't written very well. There wasn't enough buildup to his change, and so when he did change it felt out of character imo. I definitely think if Brandon where to rewrite the book (which he'd never do) and smoothed out some of it's messy spots, I would really like Hrathen. To me, it feels like a redemption arc that focused too much on the before and after, but not enough on the in-between. 

I also felt like the whole 'he actually has Dakhor powers' also made his character feel weird to me. It wasn't explained enough, and wasn't hinted at enough before the reveal, so it felt out of pocket there at the end. I know Brandon has hinted at at book focusing on them, or at least explaining it, but it doesn't really work well with Elantris's current status as a stand-alone. 

You do have a point about his armor turning out to be real--I thought that was a cool addition to his character, but it just wasn't enough if you know what I mean.

Most of his chapters were just boring political fluff of him dealing with one person or another--Brandon could have used this to his advantage and built on all of the reveals at the end . . . but he just . . . didn't.

As for his crush on Sarene, he mentions it in his death scene:

Spoiler

Pg 539, "Instead his view and consciousness was filled with Sarene's worried face. The woman who had destroyed him. Because of her, he had finally rejected the lies he had believed all his life. She would never know that had come to love her. Goodbye my princess, he thought. Jaddeth be merciful to my soul. I only did the best I could."

When I went back to find it, I realized that this could be interpreted as admiration or platonic feelings, and not romantic ones. That being said, I still feel like it wasn't expanded upon enough, and on it's own it can be interpreted in a way that's a little weird. I really don't think I'd mind him having romantic feelings for her if more time had been spent on it.

Edited June 23 by J. Magi

[Treamayne]

On 6/22/2024 at 10:08 PM, J. Magi said:

As for his crush on Sarene, he mentions it in his death scene:

  Hide contents

Pg 539, "Instead his view and consciousness was filled with Sarene's worried face. The woman who had destroyed him. Because of her, he had finally rejected the lies he had believed all his life. She would never know that had come to love her. Goodbye my princess, he thought. Jaddeth be merciful to my soul. I only did the best I could."

When I went back to find it, I realized that this could be interpreted as admiration or platonic feelings, and not romantic ones. That being said, I still feel like it wasn't expanded upon enough, and on it's own it can be interpreted in a way that's a little weird. I really don't think I'd mind him having romantic feelings for her if more time had been spent on it.

It's actually foreshadowed fairly often and also discussed in the Annotations. (Spoilers)

Spoiler

Ch 9:

Quote

Atop it was the infuriating young woman who had somehow gotten the best of him this day.

“She was magnificent,” Hrathen said in spite of himself. Like any of his kind, he had an unquestioned prejudice when it came to the Teo people.

Ch 39:

Spoiler

The young JinDo baron looked as if he wanted to follow the priests and demand Sarene’s release, and the martial Count Eondel was weeping openly. Hrathen was surprised to realize that he took no joy from their sorrow. Princess Sarene’s fall was necessary, but her friends were of no concern—or at least they shouldn’t be.

Ch 45:

Quote

As he walked, Hrathen found his eyes consistently drawn toward the darkened streets of Elantris. He tried to focus his thoughts on Telrii and the impending conquest of Arelon, but another matter tickled at his mind.

Grudgingly, Hrathen admitted to himself that he had wanted to walk the wall of Elantris this night for more than one reason. He was worried about the princess. The emotion bothered him, but he didn’t deny that he felt it. Sarene had been a wonderful opponent, and he knew how dangerous Elantris could be. He had realized this when he gave the poisoning order, determining the risk to be worth the gain. After waiting three days, however, his resolve was beginning to waver. He needed her to live for more reason than one.

Ch 57:

Quote

HRATHEN watched as “Raoden” strode into the throne room. No one challenged the impostor’s claim—this man, Raoden or not, would soon be king. Sarene’s move was a brilliant stroke. 

<snip>

And how had he managed to capture Sarene, who was normally so discerning?

Regardless, she had apparently given her heart to him. Logically Hrathen knew his jealousy was foolish. Hrathen’s own relationship with the girl had been one of antagonism, not of affection. Why should he be jealous of another man? No, Hrathen needed to be levelheaded. 

Annotations to Ch 45:

Quote

So, I contrast this bit of prejudice from Hrathen with a sincere measure of humanity on his part. He’s worried about Sarene. Not worried simply because of his desire to use her, not even worried simply because of his latent affection for her–though both are motivations for his actions. He’s worried because he feels guilty for using her like he is. It’s that pesky conscience of his, messing things up again.

Annotations to Ch 57:

Quote

As I’ve mentioned before, I didn’t want Hrathen’s affection for Sarene to ever be overt in the book. He’s not a man of passions, and I think he would be very good at keeping his interest unacknowledged, even in his own thoughts. He has ‘learned to ignore’ the passions of the flesh. We only get a few small clues as to his attraction to Sarene, and this chapter is probably has the most of those.

Still, hidden though they are, I wanted it to be obvious that Hrathen is a man, and does have masculine desires. He’s found a woman whom he considers his equal–the fact that she is of a heretic religion would only make her more appealing, I think. Hrathen is attracted to challenges, and Sarene is nothing if not challenging.

Annotations to Ch 62:

Quote

SARENE AND HRATHEN (AND FJON)

Sarene doesn’t get it. She has no clue how Hrathen feels–of course, he doesn’t even really acknowledge it himself. At least, not until he’s dying in the street.

 

 

Really, I think for most readers, the problem is two-fold:

1. This is a very early Brandon Book, so his skill and ability with foreshadowing and subtle displays of emotion were definitely weaker when this was written. 
2. Most people will not know or understand what it is like to be an Aromantic person who is possibly feeling either emotional or intellectual attraction for the first time. As the annotations mention, Hrathen himself could not understand his own feelings as he had never experienced them before. As an Aro myself, I can sympathize with the inability to understand your own state of mind with regards to how you "feel" about somebody else
   • Is it attraction? Curiosity? Affection? - Don't know; don't understand. 

[J. Magi she/her]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It's actually foreshadowed fairly often and also discussed in the Annotations. (Spoilers)

 

EDIT: My computer is not loading the edit function correctly, so I can't spoiler it right now? Anyway, !! THIS POST HAS SPOILERS IN IT !!, I'll try and get it in a spoiler box asap, sorry about this.

Thank you for getting that! I honestly didn't remember that many hints, so I'm surprised to see them. That being said, I'm almost certain when I read them, I did not interpret it as hints towards a crush/possible romantic affection. Hrathen is the sort of person to feel respect and admiration even for his worst enemy, so that's all I saw it as. I see it often in other pieces of fiction as the 'the honourable adversary.' I suppose I fit him into that trope in my brain, and so assumed that any hints for his crush were just his respectful attitude. That being said, I'm not going to pretend like I'm not a fairly oblivious person lol . . . I tend to pick up on subtitles when I'm looking for them, but sometimes I miss things completely.

For me, these hints alone are not enough to hint at a crush. I need more for it to stick in my brain. It might be enough for someone else, but not for me. I understand Brandon not wanting him to address the feelings directly, because he wanted the character being a certain way (as he said in the annotations). I'm not saying Hrathen needs a monolouge about it or anything, I'm just asking for more hints I guess--and those hints to get more obvious closer to the end. Have him show his conflicting emotions through the different plays he makes against her (maybe he subconsciously 'goes easy' on her for something, and he acknowledges that his not sure why), have him act differently when she's in the room, etc.

I think Brandon could have pulled of the 'doesn't consciously acknowledge it' thing if he'd added more hints. That being said, I am partly of the mind that Hrathen could have acknowledged the feelings and wouldn't have felt out of character. I think I would've liked a monolouge, if I'm being honest, but I understand that's not what he wanted to do with the character. 

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

This is a very early Brandon Book, so his skill and ability with foreshadowing and subtle displays of emotion were definitely weaker when this was written. 

Certainly, hence my earlier comment. If he were to rewrite it today, I would probably love Hrathen. (Unrelated, but that's why Elantris is one of Brandon's stories I would really like to see adapted into another medium--it would give him the chance to re-polish things). 

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Most people will not know or understand what it is like to be an Aromantic person who is possibly feeling either emotional or intellectual attraction for the first time. As the annotations mention, Hrathen himself could not understand his own feelings as he had never experienced them before. As an Aro myself, I can sympathize with the inability to understand your own state of mind with regards to how you "feel" about somebody else

• Is it attraction? Curiosity? Affection? - Don't know; don't understand. 

That is an interesting point, but I just have to go back to what I already said. If Hrathen is experiencing confusion over how he feels, we need to be shown that. Maybe mention a past attempt at a similar relationship that he decided wasn't for him. I never once got the feeling that Hrathen was having a hard time understanding himself or what he felt. To me, it seemed like he went from 'I admire this person as an opponent,' to 'I think I have romantic feelings for this person' far too fast, and with very little questioning of what he felt/ deliberating. I could be wrong, but his comment of 'why am I jealous or Roaden?' seems to be the only time he questioned himself. Perhaps, he was questioning himself, but I as a reader don't remember because the story barely focused on it.

Is Hrathen confirmed as Aromantic, or is that speculation from his actions?

Edited June 24 by J. Magi

[Treamayne]

21 minutes ago, J. Magi said:

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

Is Hrathen confirmed as Aromantic, or is that speculation from his actions?

 

Elantris Spoilers (you should probably also spoiler tag book material as well, spoilers are only allowed untagged in the discussion area of that series (and Cosmere Discussion itself). 

Spoiler

That is my interpretation. I do not know of any confirmed WoBs on the subject.

I also did not notice the "signs" until after I had read the annotations while re-reading the book (Third or fourth reread, actually, was when I found the annotations). I doubt I found all of the foreshadowing, I just grabbed the ones I knew I could find quickly as an example of what I meant. 

That said, I think both Ch 62 (especially the "let's run away together to Hrovell" part) and the Annotations make it clear that Hrathen was oblivious himself until that point. I don't think a character like that would have had a previously failed relationship, but I doubt he would have had any previous relationship at all (child sent to Dhakor, then moved to another monestary, then straight into his career as an Arteth). I also doubt the "love" he felt woudl actually line up with most people's idea of Romantic Love - but it was a feeling new to him at the time, and that was how he interpreted it in the short span he had when he started to acknowledge he felt "something."

I don't know if he is Aromantic, and I would never have self-identified as such even a few year ago (I didn't know the term really existed, actually); but I can, in hindsight, see similarities in Hrathen to my own experiences which is why that descriptor make sense to me about Hrathen. From the other wiki:

Quote

Aromanticism is defined as "having little or no romantic feeling towards others: experiencing little or no romantic desire or attraction".^[9] The term aromantic was added to the Oxford English Dictionary in 2018.^[10]

The opposite of aromanticism is alloromanticism, defined as a romantic orientation in which one experiences romantic love or romantic attraction to others.^[11] Some individuals who fall on the aromantic spectrum of identities describe themselves as having experienced romantic love or romantic attraction at some point. Such aromantics may adopt labels for more specific identities on the aromantic spectrum, such as "grayromantic" (romantic attraction rarely experienced or only weakly experienced) or "demiromantic" (only experiencing romantic attraction after a strong emotional bond has been formed with the target).^[8][12] As the experience of romantic attraction is subjective, some aromantic people may find it difficult to determine whether they experience romantic attraction.^[13] As such, those who are aromantic may have trouble distinguishing platonic affection from romantic affection.^[14][15][16]

It's possible Sanderson would label him Grayromantic or Demi-Romantic. I'm not sure where on the line Hrathen might fall (I would not self-identify as either of those). 

Hope that helps

 

On a tangential note: I strongly recommend to friends that they do their second or third reading with the Annotations from the website for Warbreaker, Mistborn Era 1, and Elantris - at least those five as it helps undertand so much of "why is this like this."

Edited June 24 by Treamayne
SPAG/Tangent

[J. Magi she/her]

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Elantris Spoilers (you should probably also spoiler tag book material as well, spoilers are only allowed untagged in the discussion area of that series (and Cosmere Discussion itself). 

 

Ah! Thanks for the reminder! I'm tend to completely forget about spoilers that aren't for new releases (if fact I think you've had to remind me in the past before lol)

Spoiler

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

. I don't think a character like that would have had a previously failed relationship, but I doubt he would have had any previous relationship at all (child sent to Dhakor, then moved to another monestary, then straight into his career as an Arteth).

I see what you're saying here, but I didn't mean that hypothetical change to be as serious of a relationship. Just a past experience with similar feelings (maybe he met someone else on his missionary journey the way he did with Sarene). That was also just a random example I thought of to show that he needed to be more expanded upon. I'm certainly not as good as a writer as Brandon was when he wrote Elantris, I was just trying to throw out some ideas.

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know if he is Aromantic, and I would never have self-identified as such even a few year ago (I didn't know the term really existed, actually); but I can, in hindsight, see similarities in Hrathen to my own experiences which is why that descriptor make sense to me about Hrathen. From the other wiki:

Quote

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It's possible Sanderson would label him Grayromantic or Demi-Romantic. I'm not sure where on the line Hrathen might fall (I would not self-identify as either of those). 

I see, that makes a lot of sense! I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to things like this, so I really appreciating your take on things!

 

18 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

On a tangential note: I strongly recommend to friends that they do their second or third reading with the Annotations from the website for Warbreaker, Mistborn Era 1, and Elantris - at least those five as it helps undertand so much of "why is this like this."

Huh, I'll be honest I wasn't aware so many books had annotations for them, and I've never read the annotations myself. I feel like a book should be clear in it's writing without relying on author's notes for context, but I completely understand that it would be the first place to check when not understanding something. 

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, J. Magi said:

Huh, I'll be honest I wasn't aware so many books had annotations for them, and I've never read the annotations myself. I feel like a book should be clear in it's writing without relying on author's notes for context, but I completely understand that it would be the first place to check when not understanding something.

I would agree that a book that is not clear from context without annotations has somethign wrong with the story. But I also think that if there is a tool available for deeper context and understanding, and it's about a story-universe I enjoy, then it is worth the time to learn more (even if I disagree with the author's reasoning - it helps to know there was a reason for "why"). 

If I am invested enough in a series to read it more then once, I am probably invested enough the read somethign like the annotations. Honestly, I wish more stories had them. 

Note: Most annotations (at least the ones on his site that I linked) were writtenduring the final copy-edit and before final publication, so you get some great "history" stuff too. Mistborn TFE Spoilers example:

Spoiler

Annotations to The Final Empire Ch 30:

Quote

Here’s my original journal entry for this chapter, written right after I finished the chapter itself:

MBFE Thirty: Vin saves Elend at the party.

Finished 5-19-04

It’s wonderful when a chapter turns out just the way you envisioned it.

<snip>

Kliss and Shan have both come to have much larger parts in the book than I’d intended. Kliss was intended to be a throw-away character used in one chapter, but now she’s become an informant and a conspirator. In a rewrite, I think I’ll have to introduce her sooner and try and give her a more distinctive personality. As for Shan… well, I only added her a couple of chapters ago. Obviously, she’ll need more time in the rewrite as well.

Knowing that their parts were smaller in the first draft and expanded in rewrite made it much easier to see how the foreshadowing for both of those roles were interwoven when I did that re-read. 

Note: This is also the reason I so heavily recommend the Shadows Beneath version of Sixth of the Dusk (for people who like this kind of behind-the-scenes understanding of a story - described at the bottom of the linked post). 

 

 

[J. Magi she/her]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But I also think that if there is a tool available for deeper context and understanding, and it's about a story-universe I enjoy, then it is worth the time to learn more (even if I disagree with the author's reasoning - it helps to know there was a reason for "why"). 

If I am invested enough in a series to read it more then once, I am probably invested enough the read somethign like the annotations. Honestly, I wish more stories had them. 

Oh for sure! Though admittedly, my gen z attention span probably wouldn't be able to handle them . As with most things in this fandom, I tend to hear one thing or another second hand. Thanks for all the insights!

[Mason Wheeler]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Note: This is also the reason I so heavily recommend the Shadows Beneath version of Sixth of the Dusk (for people who like this kind of behind-the-scenes understanding of a story - described at the bottom of the linked post). 

Honestly, I liked the original ending to Sixth of the Dusk better than the one Brandon decided on in the final draft.  It feels like it fits the story and the characters better.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/31/2024 at 2:08 AM, Lego Mistborn said:

One last thing, and I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion, but I just don't like Jasnah. Probably it's just harder for me to connect with her than other characters, but I find her stuck up, and feel like her trying to bring democracy to Alethkar as a way of virtue signaling as opposed to with Elend, where I really felt his desire for the people's good. This whole thing may just be because I connected with so many other characters first, or it may just be that I don't like her.

Whom would she signal such virtue to?

[Aredor]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Whom would she signal such virtue to?

I assume it would be to us, the reader. It's like we're being told "Jasnah is bringing democracy to Alethkar. Democracy is good. Therefore, Jasnah is good." Where it feels like she's only doing it for herself, to be remembered, in what I call a Gavilar complex. 

 

@Lego Mistborn, care to elaborate further? 

[Ishar]

On 3/16/2024 at 7:01 PM, The Stormfather said:

Adolin = Crem stained Highstorm-eaten storming garbage.

I logged into this site for the first time in I can't remember how long, saw this thread, and thought "I could use some Adolin slander right now." Thank you for not disappointing.

Edited July 18 by Ishar

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

12 minutes ago, Ishar said:

I logged into this site for the first time in I can't remember how long, saw this thread, and thought "I could use some Adolin slander right now." Thank you for not disappointing.

I don’t understand why adolin gets so much hate. I personally find his and Shallan’s chapters some of my favorites in RoW. I like him and I’ve got to ask, why do you hate him?

[Ishar]

53 minutes ago, Pineap-spider said:

I don’t understand why adolin gets so much hate. I personally find his and Shallan’s chapters some of my favorites in RoW. I like him and I’ve got to ask, why do you hate him?

From my post on page 3 of this thread:

On 5/9/2019 at 11:50 AM, Ishar said:

I agree with this 100%. Adolin has basically no development, and unlike other underdeveloped characters in the Stormlight Archive (Jasnah), he has had significant page time, and several chapters written from his POV. The only use I have seen for him is to help develop other characters, specifically Shallan, Kaladin, and his father.

Into SA spoiler territory now: (Still about Adolin, and I know most people have probably read all the SA at this point, but just in case)

  Reveal hidden contents

I feel that having Adolin kill Sadeas was sorta pointless. Sadeas was actually (in my opinion) a great character, and killing him to then replace him with Amaram, who then died, felt a bit like a waste of not one, but two characters with huge potential. I also feel that having Adolin kill Sadeas was meant to develop character, and sure, the murder was hanging over Adolins head for a lot of Oathbringer, but it felt trivial to me, especially when after he confessed the murder to Dalinar, it was pretty much just dismissed.

To provide some update since it's been over 5 years (and Rhythm of War has since come out), [putting in spoiler for RoW out of an abundance of caution]

Spoiler

I think Adolin becomes slightly more interesting in RoW, I think the Maya arc has potential, but I still feel like Adolin's primary role in the series is for the development of other characters.

Broadly, I wouldn't say I hate him, but I just find him to be a considerably boring character. I think it's notable that you say you like his and Shallan's chapters, considering that he very much has his own chapters, and while I might be overanalyzing, that pretty much encapsulates why I think he's a bad character.

Edited July 18 by Ishar

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Ishar said:

I logged into this site for the first time in I can't remember how long, saw this thread, and thought "I could use some Adolin slander right now." Thank you for not disappointing. 

4 hours ago, Pineap-spider said:

I don’t understand why adolin gets so much hate. I personally find his and Shallan’s chapters some of my favorites in RoW. I like him and I’ve got to ask, why do you hate him?

3 hours ago, Ishar said:

Broadly, I wouldn't say I hate him, but I just find him to be a considerably boring character. I think it's notable that you say you like his and Shallan's chapters, considering that he very much has his own chapters, and while I might be overanalyzing, that pretty much encapsulates why I think he's a bad character.

I have a theory. I think many people that dislike Adolin do so because he suffers from Raoden Syndrome. From the Elantris Annotations:

Spoiler

Annotations to Ch 3:

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Regardless, Hrathen certainly has the most interesting character progression in the story. Raoden and Sarene, despite many interesting attributes, are two of the most static characters I’ve designed. This book isn’t about their growth as people, but rather their ability to overcome their desperate odds. Hrathen, on the other hand, has a real opportunity to grow, learn, and change. Perhaps this is what makes him people’s favorite. It certainly made him the critic’s favorite.

Annotations to Ch 13:

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This chapter really shows off the core of Raoden’s character–lets him be the hero that he is. I’ve never written another character like Raoden. In a way, he’s not as rounded as some other characters (characters like Hrathen.) He doesn’t have the flaws or internal battles of some of the more complex characters I’ve designed.

That doesn’t, however, make him any worse a character in this particular book. Raoden is something of a superman–he does the right thing at almost every turn, and his internal struggles only serve to make him more noble. You can’t often get away with this in fiction. However, I do think that there are really people like him in the world–I’ve known a few of them. By including him in a book with Hrathen and Sarene, each of whom have their foibles and internal problems, I think I avoid making the characters of the book feel too shallow.

And, there is a certain . . . beauty to a character who is simply noble. Often times, we as authors think that making a character ‘rounded’ or ‘realistic’ means corrupting them somehow. I think Raoden defies this concept. He probably wouldn’t be a very compelling character outside of an extreme situation like Elantris. However, confronted by the almost overwhelming problems and tasks associated with the city, his strength only serves to make him feel more realistic to me. A weaker character would have broken beneath Elantris. Raoden can struggle on.

Annotations to Ch 53:

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I wrote this book to be less of a ‘violent book than some others I’ve written or read. However, on reflection, I realize that what I intended by this was to write a novel where the protagonists didn’t rely on violence as much as they did on their wits. I didn’t mean that I wouldn’t let the bad guys be . . . well, bad.

(In addition, by the way, this is part of why Raoden and Sarene are such competent people. They don’t have swords or magic to perform flashy fight scenes–so, instead, I gave them competence in relation to their personalities. In part, this is what amuses me by complaints that Raoden and Sarene are too flat as characters. Make a man the most brilliant swordsman ever, but make him emotionally incompetent, and you have a ‘deep’ character. Make a man incapable with weaponry, but emotionally mature, and he’s flat. Go figure.)

Well, in Adolin's case, a brilliant swordsman who is also a good person and emotionally competent. . . 

So, in a Roshar filled with Character-driven arcs and lots of personal growth, we have Adolin with a Plot-driven arc (First he thinks his Father is going mad, then the Dueling plots, then the Kholinar trip and the Trial). Sure, Adolin gets minimal character progression (Killing Sadeas;  fiding his own way as Highprince, rather than being mini-Dalinar; etc.) but he does not need Character Growth as much (Maya does though). As Brandon points out, the mostly-stable hero with a Plot driven arc is rarely a fan favorite. 

[Pineap-spider Pineapple/Spider]

Spoiler

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I have a theory. I think many people that dislike Adolin do so because he suffers from Raoden Syndrome. From the Elantris Annotations:

  Hide contents

Annotations to Ch 3:

Annotations to Ch 13:

Annotations to Ch 53:

Well, in Adolin's case, a brilliant swordsman who is also a good person and emotionally competent. . . 

So, in a Roshar filled with Character-driven arcs and lots of personal growth, we have Adolin with a Plot-driven arc (First he thinks his Father is going mad, then the Dueling plots, then the Kholinar trip and the Trial). Sure, Adolin gets minimal character progression (Killing Sadeas;  fiding his own way as Highprince, rather than being mini-Dalinar; etc.) but he does not need Character Growth as much (Maya does though). As Brandon points out, the mostly-stable hero with a Plot driven arc is rarely a fan favorite. 

22 hours ago, Ishar said:

From my post on page 3 of this thread:

To provide some update since it's been over 5 years (and Rhythm of War has since come out), [putting in spoiler for RoW out of an abundance of caution]

  Hide contents

I think Adolin becomes slightly more interesting in RoW, I think the Maya arc has potential, but I still feel like Adolin's primary role in the series is for the development of other characters.

Broadly, I wouldn't say I hate him, but I just find him to be a considerably boring character. I think it's notable that you say you like his and Shallan's chapters, considering that he very much has his own chapters, and while I might be overanalyzing, that pretty much encapsulates why I think he's a bad character.

 

Spoiler tag for space^
I can understand that you don’t care for Adolin because, paraphrasing from the two people I quoted, he’s got more of a plot driven arc and he doesn’t have as much emotional development as the others surrounding him, more supporting others development than developing himself. I personally like Adolin because of his function as this supporter. He’s a character who is there to just be a good person, a buddy for kaladin, an anchor for Shallan, a right hand man for his father, and functions well like that. Granted, he definitely he isn’t very good until Oathbringer, but I love him and Maya in RoW, and the trial chapters are lovely. His arc can be flat, but he only improves the arc of others.