Mistborn vs Else

[Tglassy]

Vin didn't have all the metals available to a Mistborn, we've never seen a Mistborn with access to all the metals.  We can only speculate as to how those metals could interact.  And just as we can't really know what a Radiant is capable at lvl 5, we also don't know what abilities a Mistborn would get burning the other god metals and their alloys.  They could even burn a freaking Shardblade, if they could get a piece off one big enough.  Or maybe just by being pierced by it.  

 

If Vin had access to the other metals, the two temporal and the other two enhancement, then I think she'd be able to take on a Knight Radiant.  I think Elend would, too, at the time of his death, because his strength is so high.  

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

15 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Vin didn't have all the metals available to a Mistborn, we've never seen a Mistborn with access to all the metals.  We can only speculate as to how those metals could interact.  And just as we can't really know what a Radiant is capable at lvl 5, we also don't know what abilities a Mistborn would get burning the other god metals and their alloys.  They could even burn a freaking Shardblade, if they could get a piece off one big enough.  Or maybe just by being pierced by it.  

 

If Vin had access to the other metals, the two temporal and the other two enhancement, then I think she'd be able to take on a Knight Radiant.  I think Elend would, too, at the time of his death, because his strength is so high.  

 

What Godmetals are available to Vin? Atium and Lerasium are functionally extinct and no other Shards have an investment in Scadrial so that they'd provide a burnable metal. About the only Godmetel that anyone could get ahold of currently is Trellium and who knows what it can do (can't burn Harmonium and it will not distill into Lerasium/ Atium).  As for the Temporal metals,  Vin had Atium and electrum already. For combat they are far superior to Bendalloy and Cadmium.  Nicrosil may be of some use but I am not sure how much. In short,  Vin's natural arsenal cannot be improved upon imo. 

[agrabes]

11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Vin didn't have all the metals available to a Mistborn, we've never seen a Mistborn with access to all the metals.  We can only speculate as to how those metals could interact.  And just as we can't really know what a Radiant is capable at lvl 5, we also don't know what abilities a Mistborn would get burning the other god metals and their alloys.  They could even burn a freaking Shardblade, if they could get a piece off one big enough.  Or maybe just by being pierced by it.  

 

If Vin had access to the other metals, the two temporal and the other two enhancement, then I think she'd be able to take on a Knight Radiant.  I think Elend would, too, at the time of his death, because his strength is so high.  

 

This is the kind of speculation I'm talking about.  You can argue that the Mistborn could theoretically have access to all the metals shown in the Mistborn novels, though we've never seen a Mistborn with access to all of them at once.  There appear to be in world reasons why you just couldn't have access to all the metals at the same time, so I think it makes more sense to go off a Mistborn using powers the way they have actually been used in the books.  I don't necessarily like giving them all metals because it's never been shown that a Mistborn would have access to all metals at once (Vin, Kelsier, and Elend never did), but I would accept that a Mistborn could have a small amount of any metal shown in the books, using it in a way shown in the books or at least described in officially published material.

What I won't buy is that a Mistborn could burn a shardblade.  It may be that there's even a WoB out there saying that a Mistborn could theoretically burn a shardblade, but let's be realistic.  That would require the Mistborn to know that they could burn the shardblade and they wouldn't.  It would require them to grind it up into a small piece that could be digested/enter their bloodstream.  We've never seen (that I remember) an allomancer burning a metal without swallowing it.  All this has to happen on the battlefield, while actively fighting a powerful enemy who knows that they have the ability to burn metals and has the ability to make that metal disappear.  So, if the Mistborn starts to prepare the shardblade/shardmetal to be burned, the Radiant would just dismiss it.

If we're going in that kind of direction, you had might as well assume the Radiant could draw in all the investure in the allomantic metals like they could with Stormlight, leaving the Mistborn powerless or at least without any reserves beyond what was in their stomach.  But we shouldn't go in that direction.  It's a fight straight up between two opponents that have prepared for battle with the resources they would normally have on hand and fighting using abilities and methods that have been demonstrated in the books.

[Tglassy]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:07 AM, agrabes said:

This is the kind of speculation I'm talking about.  You can argue that the Mistborn could theoretically have access to all the metals shown in the Mistborn novels, though we've never seen a Mistborn with access to all of them at once.  There appear to be in world reasons why you just couldn't have access to all the metals at the same time, so I think it makes more sense to go off a Mistborn using powers the way they have actually been used in the books.  I don't necessarily like giving them all metals because it's never been shown that a Mistborn would have access to all metals at once (Vin, Kelsier, and Elend never did), but I would accept that a Mistborn could have a small amount of any metal shown in the books, using it in a way shown in the books or at least described in officially published material.

What I won't buy is that a Mistborn could burn a shardblade.  It may be that there's even a WoB out there saying that a Mistborn could theoretically burn a shardblade, but let's be realistic.  That would require the Mistborn to know that they could burn the shardblade and they wouldn't.  It would require them to grind it up into a small piece that could be digested/enter their bloodstream.  We've never seen (that I remember) an allomancer burning a metal without swallowing it.  All this has to happen on the battlefield, while actively fighting a powerful enemy who knows that they have the ability to burn metals and has the ability to make that metal disappear.  So, if the Mistborn starts to prepare the shardblade/shardmetal to be burned, the Radiant would just dismiss it.

If we're going in that kind of direction, you had might as well assume the Radiant could draw in all the investure in the allomantic metals like they could with Stormlight, leaving the Mistborn powerless or at least without any reserves beyond what was in their stomach.  But we shouldn't go in that direction.  It's a fight straight up between two opponents that have prepared for battle with the resources they would normally have on hand and fighting using abilities and methods that have been demonstrated in the books.

Well, first, there's no reason to think that a Mistborn could NOT burn all sixteen metals.  if you're going to factor in Lvl 5 Radiants, which have not been seen in the books beyond Nale, then you should factor in a Mistborn being able to burn all the available metals, including Atium.  

 

Second, you don't need to ingest a metal to burn it, it just has to be in your body.  We have WOB's that state a piercing could be burned.  So if we're going to assume that the Mistborn doesn't know that the Shardblade is a God Metal, which it is, then we're assuming the Mistborn doesn't know his opponent or their abilities, and then we have to assume the same about the Radiant.  Even then, if the Mistborn knows he can burn piercings (which, granted, isn't showing the books that anyone knows that), then if he gets stabbed by the Shardblade, why WOULDN"T he try to burn it?  If I were a Mistborn, that's the first thing I would do if someone stabbed me: try to burn the metal.  At that point, you're basically dead anyway, so who cares if the metal isn't allomantically sound?  I don't think it would actually happen and we don't know what would happen if you burned Honor or Cultivation's God metal, so it shouldn't be factored in, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

 

But what IS possible is to be able to burn Atium and its alloys with the sixteen other metals, granting not sixteen powers, but 32.  We know one, Malatium, as the alloy with Gold.  All we know about them are they "grant various temporal abilities".  We also don't know what a Windrunner can do at lvl 5, or what a Skybreaker can do with the Surge of Division, but we're putting them in as if they can use it anyway.  And as I've said before, an Atium Misting could kill anyone, period.  Knife through the visor.  No, it won't kill them right away, but it would hinder them, likely making them black out, and the Atium Misting could hold the knife in until the Stormlight runs out.  I know Shallan survived an arrow through the head, but she was seriously messed up and unable to think straight, and when they pulled it out, she blacked out.  The Stormlight Healed her, but she likely would not have been able to attack or do much of anything during the process, especially if the arrow had hit a portion of the brain that dealt with staying conscious.  You give a MIstborn Atium, even just 30 seconds of it, and the Radiant dies.  Knife to the face, and hold him down and drain the Stormlight with Chromium, you have a dead Radiant.  

 

Third, there is no special Investiture in Allomantic Metals.  The Metals act as a catalyst in the Mistborn's spirit web, not as a source of Investiture.  The power comes from Preservation, it is just filtered through the metal as to what power comes out.  So no, a Radiant could not just draw in the investiture in the metals, because there isn't any.  

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

8 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Well, first, there's no reason to think that a Mistborn could NOT burn all sixteen metals.  if you're going to factor in Lvl 5 Radiants, which have not been seen in the books beyond Nale, then you should factor in a Mistborn being able to burn all the available metals, including Atium.  

 

Second, you don't need to ingest a metal to burn it, it just has to be in your body.  We have WOB's that state a piercing could be burned.  So if we're going to assume that the Mistborn doesn't know that the Shardblade is a God Metal, which it is, then we're assuming the Mistborn doesn't know his opponent or their abilities, and then we have to assume the same about the Radiant.  Even then, if the Mistborn knows he can burn piercings (which, granted, isn't showing the books that anyone knows that), then if he gets stabbed by the Shardblade, why WOULDN"T he try to burn it?  If I were a Mistborn, that's the first thing I would do if someone stabbed me: try to burn the metal.  At that point, you're basically dead anyway, so who cares if the metal isn't allomantically sound?  I don't think it would actually happen and we don't know what would happen if you burned Honor or Cultivation's God metal, so it shouldn't be factored in, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

 

But what IS possible is to be able to burn Atium and its alloys with the sixteen other metals, granting not sixteen powers, but 32.  We know one, Malatium, as the alloy with Gold.  All we know about them are they "grant various temporal abilities".  We also don't know what a Windrunner can do at lvl 5, or what a Skybreaker can do with the Surge of Division, but we're putting them in as if they can use it anyway.  And as I've said before, an Atium Misting could kill anyone, period.  Knife through the visor.  No, it won't kill them right away, but it would hinder them, likely making them black out, and the Atium Misting could hold the knife in until the Stormlight runs out.  I know Shallan survived an arrow through the head, but she was seriously messed up and unable to think straight, and when they pulled it out, she blacked out.  The Stormlight Healed her, but she likely would not have been able to attack or do much of anything during the process, especially if the arrow had hit a portion of the brain that dealt with staying conscious.  You give a MIstborn Atium, even just 30 seconds of it, and the Radiant dies.  Knife to the face, and hold him down and drain the Stormlight with Chromium, you have a dead Radiant.  

 

Third, there is no special Investiture in Allomantic Metals.  The Metals act as a catalyst in the Mistborn's spirit web, not as a source of Investiture.  The power comes from Preservation, it is just filtered through the metal as to what power comes out.  So no, a Radiant could not just draw in the investiture in the metals, because there isn't any.  

Addressing the Shardblade issue 

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

So the Mistborn could try it but, well,  his eyes are smoke. 

For the Atium alloys:

In a thousand years people have only come up with one alloy. The metal is too expensive and rare for people to experiment with.  And now it's completely unavailable, Marsh has the only stash left (good luck taking it from him). So if we're doing a fair fight we can do it one of two ways.  Either the Mistborn gets Atium like an Era 1 guy, or he gets medallions guns and primer cubes like era 2. Having both is unrealistic without Shardic intervention,  ie Sazed puts the Pits of Hathsen back into production. 

On the dominance of Atium: 

Atium is great but I can think of several ways to checkmate it were I a Knight of 4 or 5 Oath. Soulcast their metals into smoke, Transport to a realm they cannot enter, turn their weapons to rubber, throw something big enough so that they cannot dodge, make them decay at a touch. I'm not saying a Radiant cannot be killed by someone burning Atium, but their margins for error are nearly nonexistent.  But I respect your opinion as well as everyone else who believes as you do. We can agree to disagree. 

[Tglassy]

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For the Atium alloys:

In a thousand years people have only come up with one alloy. The metal is too expensive and rare for people to experiment with.  And now it's completely unavailable, Marsh has the only stash left (good luck taking it from him). So if we're doing a fair fight we can do it one of two ways.  Either the Mistborn gets Atium like an Era 1 guy, or he gets medallions guns and primer cubes like era 2. Having both is unrealistic without Shardic intervention,  ie Sazed puts the Pits of Hathsen back into production. 

That's not unreasonable, my only point was that Mistborn HAVE those powers, even if they don't have access to them in the books yet.  If we limit this to what is in the books, then we can't factor in lvl 4 and 5 for most Orders because we haven't seen them, yet.  

 

An Era 1 Mistborn with a good stock of Atium can take on an army of monsters, just as a Knight Radiant can, especially if those monsters use metal weapons.  Even if they don't, a coin is all they need to kill an entire army.  I think they'd be evenly matched, with location and other factors giving one side or the other the upper hand.

 

An Era 2 Mistborn (which we haven't seen, which is why I haven't brought it up), or even a simple Twinborn, with a full set of Medallions is, essentially, a Fullborn.  He just doesn't have access to all the powers at once.  Three at a time, I think, but switching Medallions is quick.  Give him some time to compound strength, speed and health, and the fight is over.  Give him some steel plate armor, invest it with Feruchemical Speed so the Shardblade can't cut through it as easily.   I think guns would render Plate obsolete.  Even if they can't penetrate, they'd weaken, crack and shatter them.  And it wouldn't take much to invest each bullet with a Feruchemical Charge.  And Primer Cubes would end the fight.  Just toss a few Leacher cubes, or a Cadmium bubble.  Or both. So yeah.  Anyone with the right set of Medallions can pretty much take on anyone, a Mistborn would just need fewer Medallions.  Thank you, Compounding.

 

I didn't include those in the initial post because that's using things other than what a Mistborn comes with, and this was to see what a Mistborn could take on by himself.  Having metal and weapons is common enough, but anyone, including Knights Radiant, can have Medallions and Primer Cubes.  I didn't bring up Era 2 because there aren't any Mistborn that we are aware of in Era 2.  If we're going to allow for Medallions and Primer Cubes, we have to allow for Fabrials, which can mimic all of the Surges.  Then it just gets ridiculous.  

[agrabes]

On 1/4/2020 at 11:16 AM, Tglassy said:

Well, first, there's no reason to think that a Mistborn could NOT burn all sixteen metals.  if you're going to factor in Lvl 5 Radiants, which have not been seen in the books beyond Nale, then you should factor in a Mistborn being able to burn all the available metals, including Atium.  

 

Second, you don't need to ingest a metal to burn it, it just has to be in your body.  We have WOB's that state a piercing could be burned.  So if we're going to assume that the Mistborn doesn't know that the Shardblade is a God Metal, which it is, then we're assuming the Mistborn doesn't know his opponent or their abilities, and then we have to assume the same about the Radiant.  Even then, if the Mistborn knows he can burn piercings (which, granted, isn't showing the books that anyone knows that), then if he gets stabbed by the Shardblade, why WOULDN"T he try to burn it?  If I were a Mistborn, that's the first thing I would do if someone stabbed me: try to burn the metal.  At that point, you're basically dead anyway, so who cares if the metal isn't allomantically sound?  I don't think it would actually happen and we don't know what would happen if you burned Honor or Cultivation's God metal, so it shouldn't be factored in, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

 

But what IS possible is to be able to burn Atium and its alloys with the sixteen other metals, granting not sixteen powers, but 32.  We know one, Malatium, as the alloy with Gold.  All we know about them are they "grant various temporal abilities".  We also don't know what a Windrunner can do at lvl 5, or what a Skybreaker can do with the Surge of Division, but we're putting them in as if they can use it anyway.  And as I've said before, an Atium Misting could kill anyone, period.  Knife through the visor.  No, it won't kill them right away, but it would hinder them, likely making them black out, and the Atium Misting could hold the knife in until the Stormlight runs out.  I know Shallan survived an arrow through the head, but she was seriously messed up and unable to think straight, and when they pulled it out, she blacked out.  The Stormlight Healed her, but she likely would not have been able to attack or do much of anything during the process, especially if the arrow had hit a portion of the brain that dealt with staying conscious.  You give a MIstborn Atium, even just 30 seconds of it, and the Radiant dies.  Knife to the face, and hold him down and drain the Stormlight with Chromium, you have a dead Radiant.  

 

Third, there is no special Investiture in Allomantic Metals.  The Metals act as a catalyst in the Mistborn's spirit web, not as a source of Investiture.  The power comes from Preservation, it is just filtered through the metal as to what power comes out.  So no, a Radiant could not just draw in the investiture in the metals, because there isn't any.  

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make here - we should be looking at this as a Mistborn fighting the way we have seen them fight in the books vs. a Radiant as we have seen them fight in the books.  We shouldn't bring in WoBs that discuss theoretical possibilities, because those are just Sanderson humoring the fans with explanations of how the powers work.  They aren't "cannon" in the same way as what's written in the books.  We shouldn't be looking up the allomantic table of elements and speculating about what alloy combinations might be possible and what they might do because we just have no idea what those might be and how they might be used even if there's a one sentence official explanation of how they work.  We can come up with ideas, but until they're written down in the books we don't know how they actually work.

I'm saying the setup should be something like this for a fight of Kaladin vs. Vin: Kaladin gets to talk to an experienced mistborn contemporary with Vin for a week to learn all the capabilities of a mistborn as the mistborn themselves know them at that time.  Vin gets to talk to Teft or Lopin to learn the abilities of a Windrunner as they know them at that time.  They learn the standard tactics used in world to face a mistborn or radiant when you don't have the same powers they do.  No one gets to know cosmere secrets - Vin doesn't know what "God metals" are.  Nor does she know about any of the special alloys, etc.  She only knows what she knows about her own powers.  Same for Kaladin.  We're not talking about a theoretical maximum power level here, because that's just total speculation on our parts.  I don't think you can really speculate on the abilities of the 5th level radiants either and only can extrapolate the living plate from Dalinar's dream sequence and what we know about dead plate.

I don't think atium is a good offensive weapon against someone who knows what it is.  It can only show you the future, it can't help you close the gap or get in range for an attack.  If a wide area attack comes in that you can't dodge in time, it also does you no good.  For example, the knife to the eye doesn't prevent the radiant from pulling it out.  The knife is in one place and is not controlled by the mistborn.  The radiant can grab the knife itself and pull it out so long as they are conscious.  There's also no guarantee you could close the gap.  An atium misting could almost certainly not get in stabbing range of a Windrunner who knows the power of atium.   All the Windrunner has to do is use the power of their plate to outrun the misting.  Or simply put their arm in front of their visor for 30-60 seconds until the atium runs out.  If no opening exists, you can't exploit it even if you know the future.  Atium is a really good weapon against someone who wants to fight you in close combat, or feels they have to fight you in close combat because you'll kill them with ranged attacks if you don't.  That power dynamic doesn't exist when fighting other mistborn, and it wouldn't work when fighting a radiant either.  The radiant would just stay back and out of range.  They would have a lot of trouble hitting the mistborn until the atium runs out.  So it would come down to who runs out of atium/stormlight first.  If the atium lasts longer than the stormlight, the mistborn wins.  If not, they lose.

Anyway, sorry dont' mean to be a fun killer or anything like that.  To me, bringing in speculation of how things would work based on random WoBs or brief descriptions in tables, etc is not fun.  It sort of becomes a "my dad is stronger than your dad" kind of argument.  For others, imagining what certain powers might be like is a ton of fun so I should probably just let this thread be and let you all have your fun.

[Tglassy]

The only real thing in all that that I disagree with is the limits of Atium.  If you can see a few seconds in the future, then you can close the gap.  Vin couldn't escape Zane when he was burning Atium and she wasn't.  Zane would see how she was trying to escape, and counter it.  Holding your hand over your face for 30-60 seconds leaves you tremendously vulnerable in every other sense.  And if you remove your hand for a peak, the Mistborn will know it, and that's when the dagger will hit.  

 

And the Mistborn doesn't have to be close to hit with that dagger.  Or coin, for that matter.  They just need to be burning Atium.  They can throw the dagger, or steel push the coin.  With Atium, if you don't have atrium, you're dead.  

 

Now, if the dagger doesn't drop the Radiant unconscious, then yeah, that's a problem.  But unless you're Vin, you can't hit someone who knows where you're going to be, but they can hit you all day long.  If we're going with just what's in the books, with Kaladin vs Vin, then Kaladin loses simply because Vin can burn Steel and throw coins around.  Kaladin doesn't have Plate.  He can turn Syl into a shield, but coins whipping through the air will hit him.  Every hit will drain stormlight to heal it.  And if Vin has Atium, she'd know exactly where to hit and would hit every single weak spot every time.  Kaladin is better in the air, but Vin isn't helpless.  Once the Atium runs out, if Kaladin is still standing, then it would be harder, but I still think Vin would have a good chance until her Steel runs out.  It really would depend on how ran out first, and I think it would be fairly close in that regard.  

[NameIess]

47 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And the Mistborn doesn't have to be close to hit with that dagger.  Or coin, for that matter.  They just need to be burning Atium.  They can throw the dagger, or steel push the coin.  With Atium, if you don't have atrium, you're dead.

At long range, the Mistborn could throw a dagger, but the Radiant has more time to dodge and react to the Mistborn's attack, even if the Mistborn see which way they are going to dodge. 

47 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Now, if the dagger doesn't drop the Radiant unconscious, then yeah, that's a problem.  But unless you're Vin, you can't hit someone who knows where you're going to be, but they can hit you all day long.  If we're going with just what's in the books, with Kaladin vs Vin, then Kaladin loses simply because Vin can burn Steel and throw coins around.  Kaladin doesn't have Plate.  He can turn Syl into a shield, but coins whipping through the air will hit him.  Every hit will drain stormlight to heal it.  And if Vin has Atium, she'd know exactly where to hit and would hit every single weak spot every time.  Kaladin is better in the air, but Vin isn't helpless.  Once the Atium runs out, if Kaladin is still standing, then it would be harder, but I still think Vin would have a good chance until her Steel runs out.  It really would depend on how ran out first, and I think it would be fairly close in that regard.

Which Kaladin could draw to his Syl-shield, using a reverse-lashing. Anyways, Kaladin could also just go higher into the air with lashings than Vin could with steel, then wait for her Atium to run out.

[Tglassy]

I doubt she'd continue burning Atium while he's hiding in the clouds.  He'd be spending investiture while she wasn't. 

 

And the point about knowing which way the Radiant will dodge is that you always hit your mark.  It doesn't matter how much time he has to react.  

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

The purpose of the OP was to illustrate the Mistborn combat mastery over any other being in the Cosmere.  We came up with several examples of those that could beat a Mistborn in all their glory, but of all these the Radiant is the one that comes into question the most.  The entire post is about speculation because some of these groups have never been seen let loose in combat against equivalent opposition.  The Mistborn is the only group that we've seen fight at the height of their power.  

Vin is, in my opinion,  not a good baseline for the average Mistborn.  She killed a Fullborn,  something that should have been impossible.  She took on 13 Steel Inquisitors at the top of Kredik Shaw, Inquisitors who were as close to Fullborn as Ruin was willing to make them, and broke them all. So could she beat Kaladin,  someone who currently has no Shardplate and isn't at full power?  Of course she could.  Then again,  with his importance to the storyline,  he has a fair chance to become atypical as well.

Really what we should be looking at is what the average Mistborn could accomplish given all Era 1 knowledge (no Mistborn in Era 2 so far). So let's say Shan Elarial has to take on the best and brightest the Cosmere has to offer.  Could she perhaps beat a Radiant without Shardplate?  Not sure, it's probably close. Is Shan beating a Radiant with Plate and super efficient with Stormlight?  To me that's a hard no.  So if we're talking average,  who wins in a fight, Shan or Teft? Kelsier's old teacher or the Lopen? Elend or Malata?

[Gisaku75]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Vin is, in my opinion,  not a good baseline for the average Mistborn.  She killed a Fullborn,  something that should have been impossible.  She took on 13 Steel Inquisitors at the top of Kredik Shaw, Inquisitors who were as close to Fullborn as Ruin was willing to make them, and broke them all. So could she beat Kaladin,  someone who currently has no Shardplate and isn't at full power?  Of course she could.  Then again,  with his importance to the storyline,  he has a fair chance to become atypical as well.

In those moments Vim was powered directly by Preservation, so her power was equal to or greater than that of a herald or fullborn. Normally the winning card of a Mistborn is the atium that does not just show the future but, as explained by Kleiser to Vim, sharpens the mind, allows you to manage new information and react more quickly and in a controlled way . It practically guarantees the mistborn F-Zinc as long as it burns atium.

Kelsier then clarifies further "while burning atium nothing can surprise you, You can vibrate a dagger knowing that your enemies will surely be pierced. You can dodge attacks with ease because you are able to see where each single shot will fall. The atium makes you almost invincible, Improve your mind, enabling you to take advantage of all the new information.

In close combat, the Shardplate also offers no real protection. The Mistborn obsidian dagger will always strike the Radiant's eye. And at that very moment the misrborn will know that the Radiant will remove the knife from his eye. It will be enough for him to break the handle of the dagger to make the operation impossible. At that point either the radiant tries to retreat or decides to fight with a blind spot while the Stormlight continues to try to heal him.

Most of the powers of the radiant are useless against the atium simply because they are visible. On coppermind is also said that the atium allows you to dodge attacks from behind. So it offers 360 degree protection.

Even remote soulcasting could be impossible. When Jashan soulcast the two thieves, two light trails start from his fingers. It can be deduced that it is necessary to aim and hit to get some effect.

[Agent34]

2 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

Even remote soulcasting could be impossible. When Jashan soulcast the two thieves, two light trails start from his fingers. It can be deduced that it is necessary to aim and hit to get some effect.

Considering soulcasting works by targeting the cognitive aspect of something, typically by finding it within the Cognitive Realm, it seems unlikely that aiming in the Physical Realm would be required.

[Krios]

Whoa. This threat is something else. So naturally I am going to add my two cents.

First of you need to define, what metals the Mistborn has access to, how strong his allomancy is, how skilled he is and what equipment he has. Lets assume he has access to all 16 metals + atium in reasonable amounts, while being of a comparable strength and skill to Vin and Kelsier. This would give us the most options, when referencing feats from the books.

The problem is the equipment. Here you can significantly alter the balance of any fight. Put a Mistborn in the classical "Final-Empire-Get-Up" and he will have a harder time, compared to being in full aluminium armour, while being armed with aluminium weaponry and guns, which would be expensive, but possible by the second era. Or give him knowledge of hemalurgy, a revolver with aluminium bullets and boom every fight is trivial. I think the most fair, would be two aluminium knives and a gambeson or something similar plus a reasonable amount of coins and extra vials. Good compromise between defense, offense, ressources and mobility. And quite comparable to what was used in the books.

You can broadly put the mistborns opponents into 4 categories.

1. easy prey

2. challenging, but still favourably for the Mistborn

3. victor is determined by skill, terrain, luck, etc

4. You will first finish Bloodborne playing on bananas blindfolded, before you win here

Number 1 would be everyone, who doesn't have somekind of healing ability. Mistborns just have to much damage potential to be defeated by someone without healing properties. So here I would place normal humans, most mistings and ferrings including f-gold, all awakeners including the Godking and Returned, sandmasters, koloss, pretty much everyone with sellish investiture excluding Elantrians and Dakhor monks, soulcasters, aviar users, aetherwielders and most forms of singers.

Number 2 would be everyone, who either has healiing powers or is naturally resilient. This would be shardbearers, Radiants up to the third ideal as their major advantage is the plate, Fused, Dakhor monks, lifeless, Kandra and some Twinborns. These beings can either heal from the inflicted damage like radiants, resist it quite effectivly like Dakhor monks or the Fused. I placed Twinborns here, because they can have quite a challenging power set for a mistborn, but aren't as dangerous as the people in category 3.

Number 3 here the victor of the fight is still determined by skill, terrain, luck, etc, although the mistborn is either at a advantage or disadvantage. Here I would place Radiants of the fourth and fifth ideals, heralds (after Honors death with their blades), twinborns with hemalurgic spikes, inquisitors equivalent to the ones in the final empire and during Ruins reign, Elantrians, Shades, Feruchemists, other mistborns and medallion users. These users have either extremely similar powers to Mistborns or are on a comparable power level or slightly stronger or weaker.

Spoiler

Especially the Mistborn vs Radiant matchup has to many variants to be accurately judged. Radiants can heal extremely well as seen, when Shallan heals from a headshot, which drained a lot of stormlight or when Renarin survives being crushed, but I think, that this is about the highest level of healing they can achieve, with Shallan being already on the fourth Ideal and Renarin having access to near unlimited stormlight from Thaylen gemstone reserve, being spilled allover the place. Just from a storytelling perspective I don't believe, that they can be much stronger in healing themselves or the books would just get to boring or to crazy.

If we assume a top healing level similar to Shallan for all order, who don't have the surge of Progression and that radiant plate is just as strong as normal plate, which seems reasonable given the fact, that Radiant blades aren't stronger than dead shardblades, and take into account possible interactions of the allomancy with the radiants equipment and powers, the fight isn't quite so one sided.

In my opinion the only difference between radiantplate and shardplate is probably, that it can be dismissed and resummoned. In Dalinars visions it doesn't seem to be any stronger then regular shardplate. I also don't think that you could instantly resummon the armor, if it is damaged or the knights would have just refreshed it in Dalinars visions. Radiant blades don't cut better, then shardblades, they can just shapeshift and can be summoned faster. If we apply a similiar pattern to radiantplate, it would be just as strong and resilient as shardplate, but able to be summoned and dismissed. Which would make it a huge, but not impossible, obstacle to a Mistborn.

Number 4 is a hopeless fight for every Mistborn. Here I would place hemalurgicly enhanced mistborn and feruchemists, steelcompounders, nicrosilcompounders, Inquisitors similiar to Marsh, Marsh, Kelsier in his current form, Fullborn, Unmade, Shards, Splinters, Dragons, Hoid. Just not worth discussing.

TL,DR: Mistborn have a pretty good chance against almost everything in the cosmere, a lot of fights come down to skill, terrain, luck, etc. Some beings just wreck Mistborns. A fight against a Radiant of the fifth Ideal is not as clear cut as most people seem to think.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Krios

[Quantus he/him]

8 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Considering soulcasting works by targeting the cognitive aspect of something, typically by finding it within the Cognitive Realm, it seems unlikely that aiming in the Physical Realm would be required.

Agreed, she got a lot better at non-contact Soulcasting during the battle in OB, and she said at the time it was because the realmic barriers were thinner at the time.  Combine this with the mentioned but unexplained ability of Elsecallers to locate a person in the Physical Realm by using the Cogntive somehow, and it's possible that Elsecaller are (at the upper limits of power, presumably) able to soulcast anyone from anywhere by summoning their Congnitve aspect through Shadesmar, since the location of an object and it's bead/flame do not usually have to match or need to, though they tend to drift toward each other.  

Edited January 6, 2020 by Quantus

[Elanmorin]

17 hours ago, Tglassy said:

And the point about knowing which way the Radiant will dodge is that you always hit your mark.  It doesn't matter how much time he has to react.  

No. 

It's not enough to simply know which way the Radiant will dodge, it's knowing which sequence of events will eventually lead to a vulnerable opening. Against Radiants, Kaladin in particular, Atium wont let the you throw a dagger at range and "always hit your mark". We know Windrunners at least get a considerable speedboost from Stormlight. That's likely true for some or all of the other orders. In order for the Mistborn to use Atium to perform one attack successfully against a Radiant that action needs to occur faster than the Radiant can react, "checkmate" the Radiant, or overwhelm the Radiant. 

Option 1: Atium will show the Mistborn that a future where they throw their dagger and hit the Radiant's eye doesn't exist so the Mistborn wouldn't waste their dagger in the first place.

Option 2: Atium would show the Mistborn the series of events that they would need to do in addition to throwing the dagger to hit their mark. 

Option 3: They're in a metal scrapyard and that's one place the Mistborn probably wins without even needing Atium.

I think the combat oriented Radiants at least are fast enough that Atium will only be useful to show the Mistborn how to keep themselves alive. The Mistborn might be able to see a few moves ahead but the Radiant gets two moves to their one. 

I'd give an Era 2 Steel/Steel Twinborn much better odds against a Radiant than an Era 1 Mistborn. 

 
 

[StanLemon]

In a fight between Vin and Kaladin, I would bet on Vin for one very very important reason. She is significantly better at thinking outside the box and coming up with atypical solutions to deal with her enemies than Kaladin is. Kaladin is an excellent combatant for sure and is capable of decent adaptability as his fight with Amaram shows bit Vin is very experienced at fighting people above her weight class and win.

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

In a fight between Vin and Kaladin, I would bet on Vin for one very very important reason. She is significantly better at thinking outside the box and coming up with atypical solutions to deal with her enemies than Kaladin is. Kaladin is an excellent combatant for sure and is capable of decent adaptability as his fight with Amaram shows bit Vin is very experienced at fighting people above her weight class and win.

I would bet on Kaladin:

Quote

Questioner

Who would win in a fight? Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you convince Vin the need to *inaudible*. Kaladin's a soldier. He wins on the battlefield. He does not win if you sneak up on him at night.

 

[StanLemon]

@Llstml I've seen that WoB before, and I have doubts that he put much consideration into it. Based on their feats shown in the books, I would argue that Vin has shown more. Sure Kaladin is a soldier but compare both of their fights against large groups, Vin was the one who killed hundreds in mere minutes. Now admittedly this was before Kaladin got control of his Surges or had a Shardblade but his fights we've seen since don't argue much of an overwhelming boost. For example, Vin fought against nearly a dozen Feruchemy enhanced Inquisitors and held her own fairly well, while Kaladin barely could outmatch Amaram. Sure Amaram had two Shardblades, Surges (which he clearly wasn't skilled with), and Kaladin had to distract some Fuzed, but Vin fought against so many Inquisitors (each about as strong as any Radiant we have seen except perhaps Szeth) for quite a decent amount of time before she fell. While what Kaladin had to face was definitely a challenge, I consider not as big of one as Vin went up against and Kaladin still was on the losing end of that fight.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Let us note that at the time Kaladin fought Amaram he'd already been fighting for hours on very little Stormlight.  He got refilled when Dalinar went God mode but he was still fatigued,  fighting against a fresh opponent,  and unfamiliar with Surges other than his own. I dare say the fight is different if he'd come at Amaram at the start of the day rather than at the end. 

[NameIess]

6 hours ago, StanLemon said:

@Llstml I've seen that WoB before, and I have doubts that he put much consideration into it. Based on their feats shown in the books, I would argue that Vin has shown more. Sure Kaladin is a soldier but compare both of their fights against large groups, Vin was the one who killed hundreds in mere minutes. Now admittedly this was before Kaladin got control of his Surges or had a Shardblade but his fights we've seen since don't argue much of an overwhelming boost. For example, Vin fought against nearly a dozen Feruchemy enhanced Inquisitors and held her own fairly well, while Kaladin barely could outmatch Amaram. Sure Amaram had two Shardblades, Surges (which he clearly wasn't skilled with), and Kaladin had to distract some Fuzed, but Vin fought against so many Inquisitors (each about as strong as any Radiant we have seen except perhaps Szeth) for quite a decent amount of time before she fell. While what Kaladin had to face was definitely a challenge, I consider not as big of one as Vin went up against and Kaladin still was on the losing end of that fight.

There have been at least two WoBs about Vin Vs Kaladin:

Quote

Questioner

Who’d win, Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

On a battlefield Kaladin, off a battlefield probably Vin.

 

Questioner

Who would win in a fight? Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on if you convince Vin the need to *inaudible*. Kaladin's a soldier. He wins on the battlefield. He does not win if you sneak up on him at night.

And another one with Kelsier:

Quote

Questioner

Kelsier vs. Kaladin, who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is meaner. Kelsier is sneakier. Raw power - I'm not sure, but I'm gonna go with Kelsier. If its on a battlefield, Kelsier doesn't win. If its off the battlefield, Kelsier wins. Kaladin is a soldier. He can fight a war and fight with a team and he can win a battle. Kelsier can sneak into someones house and stab them.

And then another one with Windrunners and Mistborn in general:

Quote

Questioner

We've been wondering who would win in a fight, a Mistborn or...a Windrunner.

Brandon Sanderson

It really depends on the situation. I would say the Windrunner will win on a battlefield and the Mistborn will win at sneaking around and slitting people's throats.

Brandon has said two times that Kaladin would beat Vin in a straight up fight, once that Kaladin would beat Kelsier, one time that Windrunners in general will beat Mistborn in general in a direct fight, and zero times that a Mistborn would beat a Windrunner in a straight up fight. Brandon has considered this, and even if he hadn't, he is the author, and we have nothing in the books that contradicts this directly, meaning this is the canonical answer, and the only thing that can be argued about is what a "battelfield" is.

[Honorless he/him]

On 12/30/2019 at 11:26 PM, Pathfinder said:

There is a debate on this, so being fully upfront, but in Oathbringer, from Renarin's perspective, Jasnah soulcasts three people in succession (soulcasts the first person, pushing them back, that person hits the second person, that soulcasts that person throwing them back, then another person), then she soulcasts a wall to smoke, and then while running soulcasts air to steps that she then shortly after runs up. Then after all that, and only after all that, does Renarin feel the surge of stormlight. So I maintain that Jasnah was capable of all of that prior to Dalinar bringing the realms together. 

 

So now the mistborn is scrambling with a file to find allomantically burnable metals to file and ingest? Remember they require certain percentages in order not to be poisoned. 

Hmph, I have a few thoughts on that but I don't have access to the book right now so you might have to wait a bit longer on that end.

If the Radiants are getting spheres then the Mistborn are getting metals. If the Radiants are maintaining the infrastructure in place to harvest gemstones then the Mistborn also retain their metallurgic infrastructure. I don't see any of the two sides curbstomping the other so I'm assuming both sides would be able to maintain their respective infrastructure.

 

I believe I have said this to you before but let me repeat this again: please don't be so confrontational. Debates are debates, of course but maintain decorum.

[Gisaku75]

2 hours ago, Llstml said:

Brandon has said two times that Kaladin would beat Vin in a straight up fight, once that Kaladin would beat Kelsier, one time that Windrunners in general will beat Mistborn in general in a direct fight, and zero times that a Mistborn would beat a Windrunner in a straight up fight. Brandon has considered this, and even if he hadn't, he is the author, and we have nothing in the books that contradicts this directly, meaning this is the canonical answer, and the only thing that can be argued about is what a "battelfield" is.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
#82 Share  Copy

 

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

I think Brandon is also unable to give a precise answer on this matter. Basically in the books both Kelsier that Vin often face face-to-face fights with good opponents and they come out winners. Kelsier vs Hazekiller, Kelsier Vs Inquisitor, Vin vs Mistborn, Vin vs Hazekillers, Vin vs Koloss etc. Kaladin is a soldier, this means that he knows how to fight better in formation, Vin is an assassin and therefore specializes in stealthy and solitary actions. But in terms of training and combat talent they are equal.

[Elanmorin]

10 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

I think Brandon is also unable to give a precise answer on this matter. 

Because I'd say the answer depends on the precise amount of Atium and Stormlight are in play. Do they have enough Atium to dodge the insta-win shardblade while dealing enough damage to deplete Kal's Stormlight reserve so he can't recover from a fatal wound?

Yes - Atium user wins
No - Kal wins
 

 

 

 

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hmph, I have a few thoughts on that but I don't have access to the book right now so you might have to wait a bit longer on that end.

No problem, I will be happy to quote the section and provide the page reference if you like. 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

If the Radiants are getting spheres then the Mistborn are getting metals. If the Radiants are maintaining the infrastructure in place to harvest gemstones then the Mistborn also retain their metallurgic infrastructure. I don't see any of the two sides curbstomping the other so I'm assuming both sides would be able to maintain their respective infrastructure.

I think there was a misunderstanding here. Maybe if I break it down this way it will help

1. You are asserting if Radiants have access to stormlight, then mistborn should have access to metal. I never disagreed with with

2. Combat starts with both Radiant and mistborn having metal. The elsecaller soulcasts all the vials of metal into smoke. The mistborn now only possesses the metals he or she swallowed. If the mistborn could take the gemstones away from the radiant during combat, and destroy the stormlight preventing the radiant from using that resource, it would equate to the same thing. Metals are a gateway for the mistborn's powers. Remove the metals, you remove the access. Mistborn do not have any inherent powers that would do that. Potentially chromium could be argued, but again as has been stated numerous times, that requires getting up close and personal. Getting through shardplate, which is invested metal, when using chromium on invested jewerly takes seconds, a full set of armor I would imagine would take significantly longer. 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

I believe I have said this to you before but let me repeat this again: please don't be so confrontational. Debates are debates, of course but maintain decorum.

If you take issue with the way I speak, please report my posts to the forum moderators. They will then review the posts for any inflammatory speech against the rules they presented. If they feel it applies, they will then reach out to me and discuss what the issue is, and how to resolve it. I do not see the moderator title on your profile. Are you in the process of becoming one? If not, then please follow the procedure in the site rules and report the posts you take issue with. Thank you.