Dawnshard theory

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

So, I was thinking about the Dawnshards.  (Gee, I wonder why...)  And I came up with a thing.

Coppermind quote:

Quote

The Dawnshards are some sort of ancient magical items, powerful enough to destroy an entire planet.

 

Rhythm of War synopsis

Quote

...the enemy prepares a bold and dangerous operation.  The arms race that follows...

 

My theory is that the Dawnshards are a magnifier.  By that, I mean that a Dawnshard can amplify a Surge, in this case, Division, which is what destroyed Ashyn.  

Is that what the 'arms race' will be about?  Both sides trying to get to the planet killers?  Is that what happened to Aimia, on a smaller scale?

Am I overthinking this?

[Eternal Khol he/him]

8 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

Is that what the 'arms race' will be about?

Im pretty sure its a fabrial arms race.

we were introduced to a bunch of new fabrials last book and its been a year in-world since then so who know what they have now

[Karger he/him]

Also doesn't Brandon keep the short stories as "optional" reading?  I don't think making the Dawnshards that level of important immediately would be a good idea.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 hours ago, Spren of Kindness said:

My theory is that the Dawnshards are a magnifier.  By that, I mean that a Dawnshard can amplify a Surge, in this case, Division, which is what destroyed Ashyn.  

My thouths exactly. I think also that Dawnshards are power multiplier for Surges, or more specificly, for Spren. Dawnshard was used to destroy Ashyn (strenghten Division) but was also used to transport human refugees from Ashyn to Roshar (stenghten Transportation). It is possible that Dawnshard was used to make Oathpact (strenghten Adhesion). Also, Dawnshard was used by other side, Dai-Gonarthis multiply his strengh and destroy Aimia (probably took only one in Aimia and used), Ba-Ado-Misharam multiply her Connection and take controll of Singers.

This theory explains, why Odium and Honor think that Surges can destroy Roshar. Because they can - with power amplified by Dawnshards. According to this, Dawnshards are basicly really strong Augmenting Fabrials.

[Hen she/her]

I like the theory! I’ve personally always thought each Dawnshard was unique, like the surges.(although I honestly don’t know very much about them so that could have already been proven wrong)

8 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

Im pretty sure its a fabrial arms race.

In OB there is some talk about how fabrials are created, (which of course is trapping lesser spren) along with some hesitation of whether it’s humane. I hope that, if not in Rhythm of war, then at least a future book there will be a “spren revolution” or something along those lines where people start to realize that fabrials are wrong, and fabrials will start to dissipate. (I’m also really hoping that Rock instigates it) Although it probably won’t happen simply because all of the possibilities fabrials provide.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Hentient said:

In OB there is some talk about how fabrials are created, (which of course is trapping lesser spren) along with some hesitation of whether it’s humane. I hope that, if not in Rhythm of war, then at least a future book there will be a “spren revolution” or something along those lines where people start to realize that fabrials are wrong, and fabrials will start to dissipate. (I’m also really hoping that Rock instigates it) Although it probably won’t happen simply because all of the possibilities fabrials provide.

I don't get the Spren are enslaved thing, there, basically animals, it's no different from yoking a chull.

[Hen she/her]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I don't get the Spren are enslaved thing, there, basically animals, it's no different from yoking a chull.

True, but considering the Horneaters who worship them, Also with the increasing importance of bonded spren, and the feeling they must have toward fabrials (like the way parshendi felt about enslaved parshman) I just think the problem is going to come up eventually. 

[+robardin he/him]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't get the Spren are enslaved thing, there, basically animals, it's no different from yoking a chull.

There certainly is a gray area. For example, Taravangian tells Dalinar that the "half-shards" are fabrials created by trapping not a "dumb" spren like the flamespren or painspren, but one that "under different circumstances might have blessed a Knight Radiant" - one of the ten kinds of sentient spren that can form Nahel bonds.

Think about Syl being captured before bonding Kaladin and put into a fabrial, eh?

Or worse... What if you could still catch one in a fabrial that had already formed or begun to form a Nahel bond? What would that do to the human holding the bond?

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, robardin said:

There certainly is a gray area. For example, Taravangian tells Dalinar that the "half-shards" are fabrials created by trapping not a "dumb" spren like the flamespren or painspren, but one that "under different circumstances might have blessed a Knight Radiant" - one of the ten kinds of sentient spren that can form Nahel bonds.

Think about Syl being captured before bonding Kaladin and put into a fabrial, eh?

Or worse... What if you could still catch one in a fabrial that had already formed or begun to form a Nahel bond? What would that do to the human holding the bond?

I personally doubt that a greater Spren could be trapped, except by someone they are trying to bond. I also doubt that there where enough Spren searching for bonds among the artifabrians of Jah Kevad at that point in WoR, especially with the Skybreakers making their rounds.

[+robardin he/him]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I personally doubt that a greater Spren could be trapped, except by someone they are trying to bond. I also doubt that there where enough Spren searching for bonds among the artifabrians of Jah Kevad at that point in WoR, especially with the Skybreakers making their rounds.

So do you think Mr. T was lying in that moment to Dalinar, or simply himself misled? (Both are certainly possible)

Remember that he does know quite a bit about Nahel bonds. Not only because they managed to get a Dustbr- er, a Releaser from Kharbaranth in their ranks of the Diagram, but because he spoke at length to Adrotagia et al. about Ideals and Surgebinders of different orders when Szeth mentioned fighting Kaladin when he went to assassinate Dalinar at the "warcamp palace", and he already knew Jasnah was one.

I personally don't think he was lying. It would make sense that a "half-shard" capable of blocking a Shardblade, which is generally a dead radiant spren that had once formed a deep enough bond to manifest physically, would be an intermediate form of the same.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

So do you think Mr. T was lying in that moment to Dalinar, or simply himself misled? (Both are certainly possible)

Remember that he does know quite a bit about Nahel bonds. Not only because they managed to get a Dustbr- er, a Releaser from Kharbaranth in their ranks of the Diagram, but because he spoke at length to Adrotagia et al. about Ideals and Surgebinders of different orders when Szeth mentioned fighting Kaladin when he went to assassinate Dalinar at the "warcamp palace", and he already knew Jasnah was one.

I personally don't think he was lying. It would make sense that a "half-shard" capable of blocking a Shardblade, which is generally a dead radiant spren that had once formed a deep enough bond to manifest physically, would be an intermediate form of the same.

I personally read it like Taravangian was just throwing that out there, more giving a blanket description than it actually being a Nahel Spren.

[Hen she/her]

It’s totally possible that he could be lying, but for the sake of story telling, a lie like that wouldn’t achieve anything and most likely just confuse readers. So I don’t think that’s something Brandon Sanderson would do.

I don’t see why a Nahel spren can’t be trapped, because when they first cross over they are almost as mindless as lesser spren. To catch one all you would have to do is imitate something they like (of course this is difficult with things like “honor” but I doubt it’s impossible).

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I personally read it like Taravangian was just throwing that out there, more giving a blanket description than it actually being a Nahel Spren.

Remember that at the moment he talks to Dalinar about that, he's aware that Dalinar is a Bondsmith who has formed a Nahel bond (with the Stormfather, no less).

He specifically compared the use of flamespren in making a common heat fabrial, to how they discovered how to capture "a spren that otherwise might have blessed a Knight Radiant" in making a half-shard.

That's not a blanket description... It's a pretty specific one.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

There certainly is a gray area. For example, Taravangian tells Dalinar that the "half-shards" are fabrials created by trapping not a "dumb" spren like the flamespren or painspren, but one that "under different circumstances might have blessed a Knight Radiant" - one of the ten kinds of sentient spren that can form Nahel bonds.

Think about Syl being captured before bonding Kaladin and put into a fabrial, eh?

Or worse... What if you could still catch one in a fabrial that had already formed or begun to form a Nahel bond? What would that do to the human holding the bond?

I don't think it is as grim as that. Remember our radiants have interacted with higher spren bound to a fabrial already. The oath gate spren. They spoke of how they would have loved to function for shallan if not for the promise they made to remain closed. Although spren thinking is relatively alien to human thought, i saw no indication that those spren had any issue with being the oathgate. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+robardin he/him]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I don't think it is as grim as that. Remember our radiants have interacted with higher spren bound to a fabrial already. The oath gate spren. They spoke of how they would have loved to function for shallan if not for the promise they made to remain closed. Although spren thinking is relatively alien to human thought, i saw no indication that those spren had any issue with being the oathgate. 

Well we don't know what kind of spren those were that were bound to the gates. Odium had specifically mentioned not damaging the gems.

Also, the "binding a spren to a fabrial gem is just like harnessing a chull" sentiment was first expressed by Dalinar in his conversation with Taravangian. The Stormfather rumbles in his mind when he says that, and Mr. T replies by telling him the half-shards are made by binding radiant spren, as if to say, "oh yeah, and what about that, Bondsmith of the Knights Radiant?"

Or, since Taravangian seems to Know A Lot More Than He Lets On even to us the readers, it's possible he was alluding to a kind of cousin or auxiliary spren that form Shardplate as the kind that might "at another time, might have blessed a Knight Radiant". Many of us (myself included) suspect that windspren are involved in a Windrunner getting Plate, rather than honorspren, and hje also says that what's bound in the half-shard fabrial is "the kind of spren that gives things substance, the kind that holds the world together". That sounds like the bindspren that Kaladin saw with Syl when first consciously using the Surge of Adhesion in the chasms, which perhaps are the "auxiliary spren" to whatever the Stoneward spren is.

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well we don't know what kind of spren those were that were bound to the gates. Odium had specifically mentioned not damaging the gems.

Also, the "binding a spren to a fabrial gem is just like harnessing a chull" sentiment was first expressed by Dalinar in his conversation with Taravangian. The Stormfather rumbles in his mind when he says that, and Mr. T replies by telling him the half-shards are made by binding radiant spren, as if to say, "oh yeah, and what about that, Bondsmith of the Knights Radiant?"

Or, since Taravangian seems to Know A Lot More Than He Lets On even to us the readers, it's possible he was alluding to a kind of cousin or auxiliary spren that form Shardplate as the kind that might "at another time, might have blessed a Knight Radiant". Many of us (myself included) suspect that windspren are involved in a Windrunner getting Plate, rather than honorspren, and hje also says that what's bound in the half-shard fabrial is "the kind of spren that gives things substance, the kind that holds the world together". That sounds like the bindspren that Kaladin saw with Syl when first consciously using the Surge of Adhesion in the chasms, which perhaps are the "auxiliary spren" to whatever the Stoneward spren is.

Although we do not have explicit confirmation via the book nor WoB, I think the quotes below are pretty conclusive. They show that: (in list form because I like being OCD and organized like that):

 

1. Patten confirms the giant spren are souls of the oathgate

2. Shallan assumes and the giant spren themselves confirm that they operate the oathgate

3. Descriptions of Ivory, other ink spren, and one of the oathgate spren all match identically

4. We have an in book artwork of Shallan's depicting the oathgate spren, which matches the description of Ivory and the other Ink spren

5. The giant spren themselves apologize and say how they wish they could transfer them

6. we know inkspren provide the surges of transformation and transportation. We also know oathgates employ abilities like transportation (as per WoB)

 

All this speaks to me that the black giant spren is an inkspren. And that if that giant black spren is an inkspren, it isn't upset about being bonded to the oathgate that he causes to function. If anything he seems to miss doing it. Below are the quotes:

 

Oathbringer page 476

She leaned back in her seat and Ivory - full sized, like a human - stepped over to the table. Hands clasped behind his back, he wore his usual stiff formal suit. The spren's coloring was jet black, both clothing and features, though something prismatic swirled on his skin. It was as if pure black marble had been coated in oil that glistened with hidden color.

 

Oathbringer page 828

Hovering in the air were two enormous spren - they looked like stretched-out versions of people, and stood some thirty feet tall, like sentinels. One was pitch-black in coloring.

 

Oathbringer page 856

Pattern noted "Those spren above us are the souls of the Oathgate"

 

Oathbringer page 950

Equally common were spren with inky black skin that shone with a variety of colors when light hit them right. Their clothing seemed part of them, like that of the Cryptics and honorspren.

 

Oathbringer page 1093

image of the spren matches the description of Ivory and the other ink spren

 

Oathbringer page 1098

One mother of pearl, the other black with a variegated oily shimmer. Did they guard the Oathgate, or did they - somehow - facilitate its workings?"

 

Oathbringer page 1103

We are apologetic. We would enjoy granting passage to men again

Edited July 16, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Hen she/her]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

All this speaks to me that the black giant spren is an inkspren. And that if that giant black spren is an inkspren, it isn't upset about being bonded to the oathgate that he causes to function.

Good job putting two and two together! Although the place this falls apart is the two spren are identical save for color, and as far as we’ve seen there are no white ink spren. (Although there might be a little foreshadowing/ hint to it being possible because Ivory is literately called Ivory) 

We might want to start a new thread to continue this discussion though, so we don’t derail this topic further. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

6 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Good job putting two and two together! Although the place this falls apart is the two spren are identical save for color, and as far as we’ve seen there are no white ink spren. (Although there might be a little foreshadowing/ hint to it being possible because Ivory is literately called Ivory) 

We might want to start a new thread to continue this discussion though, so we don’t derail this topic further. 

Maybe the white spren are some type of Lightspren? I know that appearance is different, but they are Spren of WIllshapers, Radiant builders also with power of Transportation.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Hentient said:

Good job putting two and two together! Although the place this falls apart is the two spren are identical save for color, and as far as we’ve seen there are no white ink spren. (Although there might be a little foreshadowing/ hint to it being possible because Ivory is literately called Ivory) 

We might want to start a new thread to continue this discussion though, so we don’t derail this topic further. 

Wasn't really my intent to derail, nor take credit. It is a (or I thought it was) pretty prevalent theory that has been around for awhile. That the black spren is an elsecaller's inkspren and that the white one is a willshaper spren. The only kink in the theory is as you said, the white spren does not match the description of what we believe the willshaper spren look like. They are metallic while the oathgate spren is white. Though a new thought could be something was done to one of the inkspren to change it as such. Regardless it does not seem in pain to be fueling the oathgate, which was the original reason/point why I brought it up. They are spren. Oathgates are giant fabrials. They make it work. They seem happy to do so. Whether they are ultimately radiant spren or not I believe is immaterial because they are clearly sapient. They converse. Have intelligent and nuanced discourse. They are aware of changes in their environment and the passage of time. Their only regret is they cannot continue to do as they have and facilitate travel. Kaza does not get a sense of upset from the spren associated with her soulcaster either. Here are some WoB about the theory and oathgates in general

 

Questioner 1

Can you tell us about Transportation? Is it like gates from Wheel of Time? 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Elsecalling? No. But-- but yes. 

Questioner 1

*laughter* I meant, like, the whole-- Just the Surge?

Questioner 2

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, is that all it does? 

Brandon Sanderson

It is the power by which they created the Oathgates... So, there is a little more to it than that. But yes, it's basically-- yeah.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

 

Boogalyhu34

Are oathgates fabrials that mimic the transportation surge? You have said that fabrials can copy all 10.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a valid line of reasoning, but I'm not going to say yes or no.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

 

 

Questioner

The spren on the other side of the Oathgate in Shadesmar... One is an inkspren-- I am guessing, no? Because there are two spren that grant the Transportation Surge so that would make the other a Willshaper spren?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

Jofwu

In Kaza's interlude, she pulls out her Soulcaster and kind of describes, what seems like a presence of a spren that's there? Is that similar to the Oathgate spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Good job.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

[Hen she/her]

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Wasn't really my intent to derail, nor take credit. It is a (or I thought it was) pretty prevalent theory that has been around for awhile.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to accuse you of derailing the thread! I also didn’t mean to discard the theory. I just meant that, this was originally about dawnshards, so we might want to move the conversation. (It’s mostly my fault we got off topic, which is why I feel bad). 
I agree though, spren don’t seem to hate being a part of fabrials.

[Rainier]

I'll be a little disappointed if the Dawnshards are just angreal or sa'angreal, even if they're the Choden Kal itself.

[Karger he/him]

Perhaps the dawnshards were used for making surge fabrials?  We know Aimia had one and they were the place to go for soulcasting information.  We also know they "bind any creature" and that surge fabrials involve one or more bound spren.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Karger

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perhaps the dawnshards were used for making surge fabrials?  We know Aimia had one and they were the place to go for soulcasting information.  We also know they "bind any creature" and that surge fabrials involve one or more bound spren.

I definitely agree. Additionally, in her interlude, Kaza mentions that forty feet tall stone spikes surrounding Akinah seem to have been created by multiple Soulcasters working together. I believe that binding/linking fabrials together might be the mechanism of Danwshards' magnifying ability

[Innovation]

55 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Kaza mentions that forty feet tall stone spikes surrounding Akinah seem to have been created by multiple Soulcasters working together.

That could have been a Radiant, or multiple, using a large amount of Stormlight. I agree with the theory though. Alternatively, they could be something like the Honorblades, just much, much stronger. 

[Karger he/him]

59 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I definitely agree. Additionally, in her interlude, Kaza mentions that forty feet tall stone spikes surrounding Akinah seem to have been created by multiple Soulcasters working together. I believe that binding/linking fabrials together might be the mechanism of Danwshards' magnifying ability

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

That could have been a Radiant, or multiple, using a large amount of Stormlight. I agree with the theory though. Alternatively, they could be something like the Honorblades, just much, much stronger. 

This still raises the question of why Honor thought they might be of use against Odium.