Truthless of Shinovar

[Hoid the Former Drifter he/him]

How did Szeth get Vasher's sword, how did Vivenna get to Roshar, and why doesn't Szeth have a normal Shardblade?

[Darkfinder she/her]

Nale gave him Nightblood it is unknown how Nale got Nightblood. It is unknown how Vivienna got to Roshar. Szeth doesn't have a normal shard blade yet but he will presumably get one.

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

How did Szeth get Vasher's sword

At the end of WoR Nale gives Szeth Nightblood as either a test, a trap, an opportunity to learn or IMO as a counterbalence to the Heralds(Nightblood can permanently kill almost anything).

13 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

how did Vivenna get to Roshar

She Worldhopps.  The CR(cognitive realm) is flat as opposed to round and only exists where beings can think.  If no thinking organisms(even bacteria) exist(like in space) then no cognitive realm will exist over that area.  This allows a large number of people to cross interstellar distances just by WALKING.  If Adolin during OB for example had chosen a different direction to go and just kept going that way he would eventually find himself in the CR of a different planet.

16 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

and why doesn't Szeth have a normal Shardblade?

He probably does as of swearing the third idea at the battle of Theylen field.  He did not before because he was only second ideal.  All radiants we have seen so far get their blades at third.

[Hoid the Former Drifter he/him]

Wouldn't walking to a different planet take forever?

[Darkfinder she/her]

Using shadesmar it doesn't take that long. There are also various caravan trails and other ways to travel through shadesmar apart from walking.

[+Invocation]

23 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

Wouldn't walking to a different planet take forever?

Space compresses in the CR where there's no people, so not as long as you think it would.

[Hoid the Former Drifter he/him]

Oh, makes sense.

[Karger he/him]

34 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

Oh, makes sense.

35 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Space compresses in the CR where there's no people, so not as long as you think it would.

It does not compress exactly.  As I explained if there are no thinking beings in that part of space then that part of space will not have a corresponding area in shadesmar.  However if you walk(or sail) across an inhabited area it will take the same amount of time(potentially more as Shadesmar can be rough).

Edited July 19, 2020 by Karger

[+Invocation]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

As I explained if there are no thinking beings in that part of space then that part of space will not have a corresponding area in shadesmar.

It doesn't go away entirely, it just becomes very small. Hence compression.(I bolded part of the WOB in the spoiler)

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. So when Kelsier is in Shadesmar, he meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrians. How far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into, kind of, the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's still in the Scadrian system, just not--just edging a bit there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point him in that <a map>. It gets really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like, he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it. If people are thinking about it - like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware of its presence, would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause-- but thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hokey, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

 

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

I always get so confused whenever I see this thread...

[Honorless he/him]

Szeth got Vasher's sword from Nale. In the OB flashbacks we see The Nightwatcher offer Dalinar "a sword that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated". We don't know how Nale came to have the sword, nor how The Nightwatcher got it nor how Vasher lost it.

Vivenna was presumably taught about Worldhopping from Vasher, who's been to Roshar before and in fact Nightblood was intended to emulate the Shardblades. We do know that she used Cultivation's Perpendicularity. A Perpendicularity is a hole, linking the Spiritual, Cognitive & Physical Realms, they are formed naturally when a high enough concentration of Investiture accumulates in one place.

Szeth doesn't have a normal Shardblade because he didn't complete the third Ideal till he reached Thaylen City. He was already using Nightblood & knew the sword was powerful, so probably chose to use that sword at that critical juncture. His Highspren might be a little frightened of Nightblood, I imagine. It's also possible that Szeth's third Ideal wasn't complete in a sense without Dalinar accepting it.

[dgreene196]

On 7/15/2020 at 8:41 PM, Karger said:

He probably does as of swearing the third idea at the battle of Theylen field.  He did not before because he was only second ideal.  All radiants we have seen so far get their blades at third.

Do we know this for certain?  We know that Kaladin, Lift, and Teft receive their Blades after their 3rd Ideals, but do we really know that for anyone else?  Szeth definitely doesn't have a Shardblade prior to swearing his Third Ideal.  But aren't Malata, Shallan, and Renarin mysteries, for the time being?  Do we have any other key Radiants we know. about their Blade status?

And Dalinar hadn't swore his Third Ideal yet, but did manage to travel via Oathgate somehow, but, of course, the Stormfather insists that Dalinar won't have Shards, and his power is beyond those that do (which seems to hold true).

If we do know this (via WOB or something else), I'm eager to add it to my brain!  But I've had it in my head as not clear-cut, but mysterious.

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Do we know this for certain?  We know that Kaladin, Lift, and Teft receive their Blades after their 3rd Ideals, but do we really know that for anyone else?  Szeth definitely doesn't have a Shardblade prior to swearing his Third Ideal.  But aren't Malata, Shallan, and Renarin mysteries, for the time being?  Do we have any other key Radiants we know. about their Blade status?

Squires don't have blades.  Until a third ideal is sworn a skybreaker is a squire.  They get their plate at oath four(same as windrunners).  Edgedancers also get blades at oath three.  That gives us three very different orders who all get blades at the same time.  Lightweavers are a bit odd because of their truths and bondsmiths don't get blades. 
Something might present itself(although I seriously doubt it) but in the meantime I don't really think it necessary to look for more proof.

9 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

And Dalinar hadn't swore his Third Ideal yet, but did manage to travel via Oathgate somehow, but, of course, the Stormfather insists that Dalinar won't have Shards, and his power is beyond those that do (which seems to hold true).

He swore it at the end of OB.  Still no blade.

[Weltall]

14 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Do we know this for certain?  We know that Kaladin, Lift, and Teft receive their Blades after their 3rd Ideals, but do we really know that for anyone else?  Szeth definitely doesn't have a Shardblade prior to swearing his Third Ideal.  But aren't Malata, Shallan, and Renarin mysteries, for the time being?

Shallan is a step ahead of Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance. She's able to summon Pattern as a blade before saying her latest truth, ergo she was at the equivalent of the third Ideal at the time. We don't know about Renarin, Jasnah and Malata to know how many Ideals they've sworn but there are distinct hints that Jasnah is far enough along to be able to manifest Plate and the one order where we know for certain when they get Plate (the Windrunners) get theirs at the Fourth Ideal.

Also on Szeth, the fact that we're told that the Third Ideal is what makes you a full Skybreaker makes it reasonably clear that their spren can manifest as blades at that point. Brandon has even explicitly stated that the Third Ideal is when most Radiants get the blade.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Weltall

[Brgst13]

14 hours ago, Weltall said:

Shallan is a step ahead of Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance. She's able to summon Pattern as a blade before saying her latest truth, ergo she was at the equivalent of the third Ideal at the time. We don't know about Renarin, Jasnah and Malata to know how many Ideals they've sworn but there are distinct hints that Jasnah is far enough along to be able to manifest Plate and the one order where we know for certain when they get Plate (the Windrunners) get theirs at the Fourth Ideal.

Also on Szeth, the fact that we're told that the Third Ideal is what makes you a full Skybreaker makes it reasonably clear that their spren can manifest as blades at that point. Brandon has even explicitly stated that the Third Ideal is when most Radiants get the blade.

Shallan used her blade when she was 10 to kill her mother.  I highly doubt she was Third Ideal at that point.

[Dancer]

25 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

Shallan used her blade when she was 10 to kill her mother.  I highly doubt she was Third Ideal at that point.

It's not that hard to believe. Lightweavers only have to speak truths. As long as the truth is something about yourself that you don't want to admit it should count. All she would have to do is confess to her parents something about herself. If her parents where at all competent at being parents before the whole incident they could coax that out of her. 

[Dracnor he/him]

4 hours ago, Dancer said:

It's not that hard to believe. Lightweavers only have to speak truths. As long as the truth is something about yourself that you don't want to admit it should count. All she would have to do is confess to her parents something about herself. If her parents where at all competent at being parents before the whole incident they could coax that out of her. 

Specifically, powerfull Truths about yourself : "I stole candies" isn't enough. From Shallan's story, it looks like it's about coming in terms with you who really are, opposed to who you thought to be (or wished to be) and who the others think you are - and that's not easy at all, that's a part of therapy.

But yeah, given her supposed toxic childhood environment she could very well have been subject to such Truths (maybe "Mother hates Father" could be one ? or that she's not loved by one of her parents ?). Childs are absolutely not as sane and balanced as we think they are.

[Brgst13]

My point is, though, we saw her speak two Truths onscreen.  If she already had spoken the third, then she would now be at the fifth, but we have WoB confirmation that she is at the 4th.  Therefore, she could not be beyond the second prior to the series starting.  Therefore, she had a Shardblade at less than the Third Ideal.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

16 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

My point is, though, we saw her speak two Truths onscreen.  If she already had spoken the third, then she would now be at the fifth, but we have WoB confirmation that she is at the 4th.  Therefore, she could not be beyond the second prior to the series starting.  Therefore, she had a Shardblade at less than the Third Ideal.

But she dont grow constant - she bury memories, what is equivalent of breaking the oath.

[dgreene196]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

But she dont grow constant - she bury memories, what is equivalent of breaking the oath.

But, in the only example we have of a proto-Radiant breaking an oath (that doesn’t leave a dead Spren trapped as a Blade), Kaladin didn’t have to go back through the Oaths, he had to commit to the next one.

I believe Pattern says something to the effect that he’s always been with Shallan, so she’s always had access to her Blade, even if she doesn’t want to remember she has Pattern for a long time.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

My point is, though, we saw her speak two Truths onscreen.  If she already had spoken the third, then she would now be at the fifth, but we have WoB confirmation that she is at the 4th.  Therefore, she could not be beyond the second prior to the series starting.  Therefore, she had a Shardblade at less than the Third Ideal.

I am terrified, I am a murderer, I killed my mother.  Three truths on screen.  She rebooted her progression with the trauma.

7 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

But, in the only example we have of a proto-Radiant breaking an oath (that doesn’t leave a dead Spren trapped as a Blade), Kaladin didn’t have to go back through the Oaths, he had to commit to the next one.

Lightweavers are weird.  Shallan is one of the weirdest.  As I see it the reason Shallan has to re progress is that she effectively erased her earlier oaths by becoming a different person.  The oaths are not broken they are just no longer valid.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Karger

[+Child of Hodor]

On Nightblood's chain of custody. Vasher had it and brought it to Roshar. Presumably he gave it to the Nightwatcher in exchange for being able to use stormlight as a substitute for breath. 

That's partial speculation, but the Nightwatcher had the blade when Dalinar visited her. She offers him "A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you". OB Ch. 114

From there somehow Nale got it. Unknown if he went himself to the Nightwatcher or if he sent another Skybreaker. Or if someone unrelated got it who Nale then killed and took the blade. 

Kind if silly of Nale went for the blade himself. Nale, buddy, you already have two magic swords, you only have two hands. You don't need to get a bane in exchange for yet another sword. What are you in Ryiria now?

Edited July 20, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[dgreene196]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I am terrified, I am a murderer, I killed my mother.  Three truths on screen.  She rebooted her progression with the trauma.

Lightweavers are weird.  Shallan is one of the weirdest.  As I see it the reason Shallan has to re progress is that she effectively erased her earlier oaths by becoming a different person.  The oaths are not broken they are just no longer valid.

I guess my presumption of Lightweaver weirdness is that they receive their Blades after the first Oath.  So, Shallan said the first Oath as a young girl, but failed to advance beyond that until we see her in TWOK because of her trauma.  So, minus the Immortal Words, we've seen all her oaths.

I guess we won't know for sure until we see another Lightweaver say their first Oath.  Somehow, even if Hoid has a Blade already, I wouldn't expect him to use it.  Well, unless he can create a Shardflute...

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's partial speculation, but the Nightwatcher had the blade when Dalinar visited her. She offers him "A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. I can give it to you". OB Ch. 114

That does not necessarily mean she had it.  Perhaps she just new where it was.

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

On Nightblood's chain of custody. Vasher had it and brought it to Roshar. Presumably he gave it to the Nightwatcher in exchange for being able to use stormlight as a substitute for breath. 

We also don't know that.  Vivenna was tracking a criminal who she said had it.

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Kind if silly of Nale went for the blade himself. Nale, buddy, you already have two magic swords, you only have two hands. You don't need to get a bane in exchange for yet another sword. What are you in Ryiria now?

Thank you for that reference.  Nale might have wanted an out.  A way to permanently kill himself or another Herald.

27 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

I guess my presumption of Lightweaver weirdness is that they receive their Blades after the first Oath.  So, Shallan said the first Oath as a young girl, but failed to advance beyond that until we see her in TWOK because of her trauma.  So, minus the Immortal Words, we've seen all her oaths.

Interesting theory but that implies that Elhokar could have summoned another blade.  I personally doubt that.  It also does not jive with other theories but to each.

28 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Somehow, even if Hoid has a Blade already, I wouldn't expect him to use it.  Well, unless he can create a Shardflute...

He also might be at fifth oath by now having sworn off screen.  I don't think truths are a problem for him.  As he said he "knows some juicy ones."

[dgreene196]

On 7/20/2020 at 6:51 PM, Karger said:

Interesting theory but that implies that Elhokar could have summoned another blade.  I personally doubt that.  It also does not jive with other theories but to each.

Maybe Elhokar could have if he'd finished the first oath?  Although one of those blades would have caused some significant discomfort.  Unfortunately, Moash did him in just before he got it out (and I don't recall if he had spheres available to heal with even if he'd finished saying the Words; or if he'd been instinctive enough to do it).

As for Hoid, it may be a long, long time before we learn how far he progresses in his Truths - he certainly is more than capable of reaching the highest level quickly.  But he may have reasons to not do that, as well.  What happens to your spren when you worldhop?  But he seems interested in pursuing Investiture from as many Shardworlds as possible (I look forward to Mistborn Era 4 [hopefully sooner] to learn what he plans to do with those abilities).

Edited July 22, 2020 by dgreene196