Certified Gay Disasters

[Kaymyth she/her]

9 minutes ago, AonEne said:

They aren't two separate genders, that's simply not how gender works. I don't need to give it thought because the answer is easy. I don't see a single merit (if you're thinking of "superstraight", that isn't a thing, it's an excuse for people to be transphobic; happy to explain more if needed). In addition to being factually incorrect, it's rhetoric used to harm trans people, and there is nothing good about it.

I'm going to add on a bit to this and point out very clearly to everyone reading that there is no functional difference between saying "cis women and trans women are different genders" and "trans women aren't real women." They mean exactly the same extremely transphobic thing, and neither are acceptable.

 

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

13 minutes ago, AonEne said:

They aren't two separate genders, that's simply not how gender works. I don't need to give it thought because the answer is easy. I don't see a single merit (if you're thinking of "superstraight", that isn't a thing, it's an excuse for people to be transphobic; happy to explain more if needed). In addition to being factually incorrect, it's rhetoric used to harm trans people, and there is nothing good about it. 

Ben Shapiro is, in my opinion, not a good person; he spreads misinformation and hate. Many of the things he says would get him moderated or outright banned on our platforms.

Please don't endorse his beliefs on this website; even the ones that aren't outright political (we discourage politics on the Shard) are often very harmful and against our Code of Conduct in other ways. 

 

1 minute ago, Kaymyth said:

I'm going to add on a bit to this and point out very clearly to everyone reading that there is no functional difference between saying "cis women and trans women are different genders" and "trans women aren't real women." They mean exactly the same extremely transphobic thing, and neither are acceptable.

 

(just so noone's confused, I mean "no, I won't respond, I sense I've made a mistake of some kind.")

[Kaymyth she/her]

11 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

 

(just so noone's confused, I mean "no, I won't respond, I sense I've made a mistake of some kind.")

I'm not gonna lie, you are testing boundaries that really ought not to be tested.

I recommend being more mindful in the future.

[Cataclysm he/him]

I actually am somewhat curious about that. Do you consider cis and trans women to be the same gender but not sex, or something like that?

[Kaymyth she/her]

7 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

I actually am somewhat curious about that. Do you consider cis and trans women to be the same gender but not sex, or something like that?

I consider a trans woman to know who and what she is better than anyone else who isn't her, and when she tells me, I listen and accept.

Beyond that, as a cis woman, I don't really think it's appropriate for me to sit down and try to categorize people whose day-to-day existence I do not -- and cannot -- have firsthand experience with. These are discussions for trans people to have amongst themselves, not for people like me to speculate on.

[Cataclysm he/him]

1 minute ago, Kaymyth said:

I consider a trans woman to know who and what she is better than anyone else who isn't her, and when she tells me, I listen and accept.

Beyond that, as a cis woman, I don't really think it's appropriate for me to sit down and try to categorize people whose day-to-day existence I do not -- and cannot -- have firsthand experience with. These are discussions for trans people to have amongst themselves, not for people like me to speculate on.

Thank you for your perspective. I personally think that some speculation can be healthy in this ever-changing world, as we try to understand those around us, but I respect your position that we should listen to credible and involved sources for deeper understanding when possible. 

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

23 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

I actually am somewhat curious about that. Do you consider cis and trans women to be the same gender but not sex, or something like that?

Cis and trans women are the same gender, regardless of what anyone considers.

In terms of biological sex, it gets complicated, because 1. physical transitions of varying levels and 2. sex is not black and white in the first place, intersex people exist. I have found that it's often better to speak directly about what you mean - instead of "trans men can't get prostate cancer because they're biologically female/their sex isn't male", "trans men can't get prostate cancer because they don't have a prostate gland". "Biologically female/male" and "sex" have their place, but it's not very relevant to most non-medical conversations. The terms AFAB and AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth) can also be useful to talk about things without making it all about biological sex. 

Trans people can self-describe themselves and their personal journeys however they like, but for cis people it's generally safest to either stick to what a trans person in the conversation has already used for people like them, or use AFAB/AMAB. 

(This is my own opinion based on others I have seen and other individual trans people may disagree on the best terminology to use!) 

[Koloss17 She/They]

15 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

I actually am somewhat curious about that. Do you consider cis and trans women to be the same gender but not sex, or something like that?

Well, here’s the thing. What Is biological sex? Because sure, it can be chromosomes. Though, chromosomes are more of guidelines on how to determine what we would categorize as “sex”. The hormones, the primary and secondary sex characteristics. And frankly, you don’t even know what chromosomes you are born with until you actually check. There have been plenty of people that have xy chromosomes, yet develop female primary and secondary sex characteristics, with one of these examples being Swyer syndrome. There was also a case of a father of three children that when taking a medical test was made aware that he had a vagina (it wasn’t visible on the outside, and clearly didn’t impact his fertility, so the only way to know was to check). 

And frankly, with both hormones and surgery, trans women (or men) are practically biologically men or women. Trans women get periods because of their hormones, and naturally grow breasts. So I would generally say that that is biologically “female” in my books.

And beyond that, there have been studies that have shown that trans individuals have brains that are of their preferred gender. Here is a snippet from an old Harvard lecture on this.

So long story short, trans women are women, both in gender, and in many cases, in sex.

[Kaymyth she/her]

38 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

Thank you for your perspective. I personally think that some speculation can be healthy in this ever-changing world, as we try to understand those around us, but I respect your position that we should listen to credible and involved sources for deeper understanding when possible. 

Okay, I'm going to expound a bit more.

Gender AND sex exist on spectrums. Genetics and endocrinology are complicated.

You can have stuff like gene switching, where the X and Y chromosomes trade the gender genes out. You can have XY women whose bodies just...ignore male hormones. And there are a dozen other things that can effect how genes express.

Do all trans folk fall under these exceptions? Dunno. Does it matter? Not a whit.

And as AonEne said, intersex people exist. You can also have cisgender people with different hormone balances (i.e. I produce more testosterone than an average woman, and it does wonky things to my system. I take spironolactone to suppress it. Many trans and cis women do the same).

So, am I a cisgender woman? Yeah. Am I a textbook case of the female sex? Definitely not. Do I have an XX genotype? I mean, I think so, but I don't actually care. I am who and what I am, and if a test were to come back with XY, I'd probably just shrug and move on with my life.

Some trans people are men, and some are women. Some are nonbinary or genderfluid on a wide range of variability. The idea that anyone can say, "All A are B," are ignoring everyone and everything that is G or H or S or something else.

So I refuse to try to make those sweeping statements, because I have a bare inkling of how complex it all is. The closer you look at it, the more detail you investigate, the fuzzier it all becomes. So honestly, my recommendation to everyone is save yourselves the headache, and just accept people for who they say they are, because chances are we're never going to have all the whys and wherefores figured out. It's just too complex.

[Cataclysm he/him]

13 minutes ago, AonEne said:

Cis and trans women are the same gender, regardless of what anyone considers.

In terms of biological sex, it gets complicated, because 1. physical transitions of varying levels and 2. sex is not black and white in the first place, intersex people exist. I have found that it's often better to speak directly about what you mean - instead of "trans men can't get prostate cancer because they're biologically female/their sex isn't male", "trans men can't get prostate cancer because they don't have a prostate gland". "Biologically female/male" and "sex" have their place, but it's not very relevant to most non-medical conversations. The terms AFAB and AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth) can also be useful to talk about things without making it all about biological sex. 

Trans people can self-describe themselves and their personal journeys however they like, but for cis people it's generally safest to either stick to what a trans person in the conversation has already used for people like them, or use AFAB/AMAB. 

(This is my own opinion based on others I have seen and other individual trans people may disagree on the best terminology to use!) 

So would I be correct in saying that AMAB/AFAB is, for lack of a better term, just a PC way to describe biological sex?

3 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Well, here’s the thing. What Is biological sex? Because sure, it can be chromosomes. Though, chromosomes are more of guidelines on how to determine what we would categorize as “sex”. The hormones, the primary and secondary sex characteristics. And frankly, you don’t even know what chromosomes you are born with until you actually check. There have been plenty of people that have xy chromosomes, yet develop female primary and secondary sex characteristics, with one of these examples being Swyer syndrome. There was also a case of a father of three children that when taking a medical test was made aware that he had a vagina (it wasn’t visible on the outside, and clearly didn’t impact his fertility, so the only way to know was to check). 

And frankly, with both hormones and surgery, trans women (or men) are practically biologically men or women. Trans women get periods because of their hormones, and naturally grow breasts. So I would generally say that that is biologically “female” in my books.

And beyond that, there have been studies that have shown that trans individuals have brains that are of their preferred gender. Here is a snippet from an old Harvard lecture on this.

So long story short, trans women are women, both in gender, and in many cases, in sex.

I don’t think that when we talk about sex as a whole we should be relying to greatly on intersex cases. It’s really quite rare, and I don’t know a perfectly non-offensive way to put this without simply saying I mean no harm, but it’s kind of a physical (ugh I can’t think of a better word, I would love to use one that better describes what I mean) “defect” or “disability”. Intersex people are still beautiful children of God, but were born with a condition. Exceptions often can prove rules, and I think that can go for this case.

As for hormones and surgery, there’s no telling what these can do to a body. People have become animal looking from surgery. So yes, you can change your body, but in all honesty I don’t know if that would change a spirit.

And the brains of trans people that will look like their preferred gender, I think could appear that way due to hormone therapy and treatments. 

11 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Okay, I'm going to expound a bit more.

Gender AND sex exist on spectrums. Genetics and endocrinology are complicated.

You can have stuff like gene switching, where the X and Y chromosomes trade the gender genes out. You can have XY women whose bodies just...ignore male hormones. And there are a dozen other things that can effect how genes express.

So, am I a cisgender woman? Yeah. Am I a textbook case of the female sex? Definitely not. Do I have an XX genotype? I mean, I think so, but I don't actually care. I am who and what I am, and if a test were to come back with XY, I'd probably just shrug and move on with my life.

Do all trans folk fall under these exceptions? Dunno. Does it matter? Not a whit.

And as AonEne said, intersex people exist. You can also have cisgender people with different hormone balances (i.e. I produce more testosterone than an average woman, and it does wonky things to my system. I take spironolactone to suppress it. Many trans and cis women do the same).

Some trans people are men, and some are women. Some are nonbinary or genderfluid on a wide range of variability. The idea that anyone can say, "All A are B," are ignoring everyone and everything that is G or M or F or something else.

So I refuse to try to make those sweeping statements, because I have a bare inkling of how complex it all is. The closer you look at it, the more detail you investigate, the fuzzier it all becomes. So honestly, my recommendation to everyone is save yourselves the headache, and just accept people for who they say they are, because chances are we're never going to have all the whys and wherefores figured out. It's just too complex.

I agree that the deeper you look into it, the more confusing it gets. I only mean to learn more, and if any of my statements or questions are overstepping, or offensive, or simply just going to piss someone off, please let me know. I don’t want to offend, I just want to further my understanding. I thought this might be a good place to do that, as there is quite a bit of experience with these topics in this thread.

I also apologize for how long it took to write this, most of the time was spent trying to come up with some other word than “defect”, which does not describe my intended thought. 

[Kaymyth she/her]

6 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

I don’t think that when we talk about sex as a whole we should be relying to greatly on intersex cases. It’s really quite rare, and I don’t know a perfectly non-offensive way to put this without simply saying I mean no harm, but it’s kind of a physical (ugh I can’t think of a better word, I would love to use one that better describes what I mean) “defect” or “disability”. Intersex people are still beautiful children of God, but were born with a condition. Exceptions often can prove rules, and I think that can go for this case.

1. It doesn't matter that it's "rare." These people exist and are a natural part of humanity.
2. A difference is not a defect or a disability.
3. "The exception that proves the rule" is an absolute nonsense saying and has no place in scientific discourse.

Furthermore:

We don't actually know how common or rare intersex people are. Estimates range all over the place, depending on who's doing the estimation. The issue there is people disagree on what counts as "intersex" as there are a huge number of different conditions.

https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

The widest net cast is, "Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births."

So that's 1 in 100 people born with some sort of deviation from "standard." 1% of the population. Through the magic of large numbers, take 1% of 8 billion and you get...80 million people.

80 million people alive on this planet right now who don't perfectly fit the "standard" genitalia model. Doesn't seem like such an exception anymore, does it?

My point is, you cannot simply dismiss a portion of the population's existence because it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of what things "should" be. And if there's that many who are easily identifiable, how many other differences do we have going on that we can't see at all? Hormonal balances (hi, that's me), internal developmental differences, chimeras. There are so many things we just don't test everyone for, so we have no idea how many people like that exist! It's wild. Humanity is wild. Biology is wild.

Also, you can pry my spiro from my cold, dead fingers, because the benefits to suppressing my testosterone production are insanely fantastic. Reduced cramps! A more even temper! Virtually no PMS! Reduced acne!* When I think about what my life could've been like if I'd had access to this medication in adolescence...gods. My body might have developed a little bit differently. I might've had hips. I rusting long for wider hips.

My point is, medication and surgery is between an individual and their doctor, and you really don't get a say.

*seriously I'm 46 freakin' years old I am too old for this acne crem

26 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

So would I be correct in saying that AMAB/AFAB is, for lack of a better term, just a PC way to describe biological sex?

I'm just gonna add here, if your idea of using respectful language towards individuals is "PC" then you're already stumbling into offensive territory. It's not political correctness -- it's basic human kindness and good manners.

[Cataclysm he/him]

6 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

1. It doesn't matter that it's "rare." These people exist and are a natural part of humanity.
2. A difference is not a defect or a disability.
3. "The exception that proves the rule" is an absolute nonsense saying and has no place in scientific discourse.

Furthermore:

We don't actually know how common or rare intersex people are. Estimates range all over the place, depending on who's doing the estimation. The issue there is people disagree on what counts as "intersex" as there are a huge number of different conditions.

https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

The widest net cast is, "Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births."

So that's 1 in 100 people born with some sort of deviation from "standard." 1% of the population. Through the magic of large numbers, take 1% of 8 billion and you get...80 million people.

80 million people alive on this planet right now who don't perfectly fit the "standard" genitalia model. Doesn't seem like such an exception anymore, does it?

My point is, you cannot simply dismiss a portion of the population's existence because it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of what things "should" be. And if there's that many who are easily identifiable, how many other differences do we have going on that we can't see at all? Hormonal balances (hi, that's me), internal developmental differences, chimeras. There are so many things we just don't test everyone for, so we have no idea how many people like that exist! It's wild. Humanity is wild. Biology is wild.

Also, you can pry my spiro from my cold, dead fingers, because the benefits to suppressing my testosterone production are insanely fantastic. Reduced cramps! A more even temper! Virtually no PMS! Reduced acne!* When I think about what my life could've been like if I'd had access to this medication in adolescence...gods. My body might have developed a little bit differently. I might've had hips. I rusting long for wider hips.

My point is, medication and surgery is between an individual and their doctor, and you really don't get a say.

*seriously I'm 46 freakin' years old I am too old for this acne crem

I'm just gonna add here, if your idea of using respectful language towards individuals is "PC" then you're already stumbling into offensive territory. It's not political correctness -- it's basic human kindness and good manners.

Okay, I want to make clear first and foremost that my intention is not to argue or debate, but to learn how to navigate the world and the internet in a positive way. I thank everyone involved for their input and advice. 
I also have my beliefs, some of which differ from yours, and in some ways my vocabulary can be affected by that.

I don’t think an argument about intersex and its definition can benefit my intentions here. I have learned what a better way to express what I mean on that is, and I thank you for that.

Now, I’m quite naturally a human. I have flaws like all people. One of those is that I’m extra confrontational. Perhaps I will in the future be able to state my thoughts on topics such as this in a more good mannered way. I have received the answers and thoughts to my original question, as well as any other information I was seeking. Once again, I thank you all for your patience with such an internet novice, as I am only 14 years old (hence the awful grammar).

Til next time,

[Kaymyth she/her]

1 minute ago, Cataclysm said:

Okay, I want to make clear first and foremost that my intention is not to argue or debate, but to learn how to navigate the world and the internet in a positive way. I thank everyone involved for their input and advice. 
I also have my beliefs, some of which differ from yours, and in some ways my vocabulary can be affected by that.

I don’t think an argument about intersex and its definition can benefit my intentions here. I have learned what a better way to express what I mean on that is, and I thank you for that.

Now, I’m quite naturally a human. I have flaws like all people. One of those is that I’m extra confrontational. Perhaps I will in the future be able to state my thoughts on topics such as this in a more good mannered way. I have received the answers and thoughts to my original question, as well as any other information I was seeking. Once again, I thank you all for your patience with such an internet novice, as I am only 14 years old (hence the awful grammar).

Til next time,

Understood. And while there are a number of people on the Shard who are probably happy to have these conversations with you, this isn't really the thread for it.

This is for LGBTQ+ members to bond with and support each other, and we want them to continue to feel safe to do so. Too much challenging can compromise that. We would appreciate it if you (and anyone else of a similar mindset) were to take a step back and perhaps refrain from engaging  on this thread.

[Koloss17 She/They]

54 minutes ago, Cataclysm said:

 

And the brains of trans people that will look like their preferred gender, I think could appear that way due to hormone therapy and treatments. 

 

Have you watched the video? It explains that this is something found in both pre-hormone and post-hormone transgender people. It is frankly quite fascinating, and very much gives credence to the idea that being trans is natural.

[Cataclysm he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Understood. And while there are a number of people on the Shard who are probably happy to have these conversations with you, this isn't really the thread for it.

This is for LGBTQ+ members to bond with and support each other, and we want them to continue to feel safe to do so. Too much challenging can compromise that. We would appreciate it if you (and anyone else of a similar mindset) were to take a step back and perhaps refrain from engaging  on this thread.

I feel you

2 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Have you watched the video? It explains that this is something found in both pre-hormone and post-hormone transgender people. It is frankly quite fascinating, and very much gives credence to the idea that being trans is natural.

I am unable to at the moment, but I will when I can. Thanks

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

Maybe we can set up a different thread or PM for in-depth education on queerness, but this one was intended as a space for queer people to just be excited and be themselves. I'm not saying cishet people aren't allowed to post here, but it's not the best place for conversations like these last couple. 

If we do make another thread for such conversations, though, I will be clear from the outset: the Shard as a whole is not here to debate LGBTQ+ identities, and we will not permit transphobia or homophobia. Anyone who believes that trans, gay, or otherwise queer people are wrong to express themselves, be who they are, and love who they love is not welcome to express that opinion on this website. We firmly support LGBTQ+ people, it is not political to do so, and if anyone reading isn't aware - so does Brandon! 

Tl;dr if you're [general you] here to learn and grow, cool. If you're anti-LGBT and not interested in changing, the Shard is not for you. 

Edited May 28 by AonEne
kaymyth ninjaed me >:(

[Hmmm lies she/her]

Even mods are not immune to ninjaing lol.

Anyway, to place things back on a more positive topic, I just want to vent about just how happy I am to finally understand myself. It feels like everything just makes so much more sense now, like I was never really alive before my egg cracked (which may or may not be how actual eggs work idk I'm not a biologist). Basically, it's like the Matrix but the real world is considerably better than the matrix. I've finally been able to love myself like I never could before. Even if I hate my body, I see it as my body, one that I can fix, eventually. I leave the closet in 18 days, and even though I'm terrified, I also can't wait.

There we go, those good vibes should hopefully bring this thread back to normal after that last discussion. If anyone else wants to inject good vibes into this thread, feel free.

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

Met my half-sister and her husband for the second time ever yesterday, and they're allies  

[Just-A-Stick she/her]

I have a question!

(keeping in mind, I'm a sheltered homeschooler who is straight and I might not understand because of a learning disorder, so if this is mean/exclusive/bad-in-some-way I'M SO SORRY!)

So, why do people use the term "queer"? In my mind, at least, queer is like... a synonym for weird or strange or something like that. Is it a term that only queer people can use? Is it more universal than breaking everything down into specifics? Where did it come from? How popular is it? Is there something better that you nice folks would prefer to be called?

Thanks!

(and once again I'm so sorry if this isn't clear or if I offend someone!!! Please let me know and I'll do my best to make it right again.) 

~ Stick

[BlueWildRye he/him]

39 minutes ago, Anguished_One said:

I have a question!

(keeping in mind, I'm a sheltered homeschooler who is straight and I might not understand because of a learning disorder, so if this is mean/exclusive/bad-in-some-way I'M SO SORRY!)

So, why do people use the term "queer"? In my mind, at least, queer is like... a synonym for weird or strange or something like that. Is it a term that only queer people can use? Is it more universal than breaking everything down into specifics? Where did it come from? How popular is it? Is there something better that you nice folks would prefer to be called?

Thanks!

(and once again I'm so sorry if this isn't clear or if I offend someone!!! Please let me know and I'll do my best to make it right again.) 

~ Stick

Well gay just meant happy originally so...

[Kaymyth she/her]

*switches on the Mod Voice mic*

Okay, I want to be perfectly clear: this thread is for the LGBTQ+ members of the Shard to chat, bond, commiserate, and generally support each other.

This is not -- I repeat, NOT -- an appropriate venue for asking questions of them. I am asking everyone to please stop doing that here for the sake of keeping this a pressure-free environment for our LGBTQ+ members.

Thank you.

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

50 minutes ago, Anguished_One said:

So, why do people use the term "queer"? In my mind, at least, queer is like... a synonym for weird or strange or something like that. Is it a term that only queer people can use? Is it more universal than breaking everything down into specifics? Where did it come from? How popular is it? Is there something better that you nice folks would prefer to be called?

Fair question to have! What happened here is that queer started out as a slur, it was something that people were called as an insult, but then queer people went "no, actually, you don't get to do this, we're stealing this back from you and OWNING it", and reclaimed it. There are still some people who don't like to use it for themselves because they remember that, or have had it used against them, but on the whole it has been reclaimed as a word that's ours now. We've stolen this sword from the attackers and we're not giving it back!  

It's not a term that only queer people can use, but if an individual asks you not to use it for them, honor that. If you're not sure, defaulting to the acronym or any specific term that you know they use is good. It's an easier way to refer to anyone with a minority sexual orientation or gender identity without typing out the whole acronym or worrying about leaving anyone out, it just encompasses everyone. 

[Hmmm lies she/her]

*looks at the logo at the top*

Pride month cometh. My first pride month out of the egg.

[Comatose he/him]

Congratulations!  I hope it’s lots of fun .
 

It’s gonna be my first pride as a parent where I can actually attend stuff and am not travelling. I feel like I’ve forgotten how to pride over the last couple of years .  

[Hmmm lies she/her]

Don't got much planned... Wait, actually I do have one tiny thing planned for pride month.

 

Coming out as trans lol.