allomantic metals around the cosmere

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The metal is also destroyed when you compound, which technically means doing feruchemy just with an alternate power source.

Compounding is more Allomancy than Feruchemy. You using Preservation Power filtered with Invested Metal - basicly you have magic Focus corelated with you,a dn this is what you really do, only change Focus - basicly full mealminds ate just new metal (physicly identical, but magicly different).

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Primer cubes suggest that a living mind is not absolutely necessary.

Yep, thats right. But they are stil "controling device".

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But the Spren is not destroyed. And the Spren determines most of the effect of the fabrial.

Gemstone can be, and Spren is freed. one way or other, Spren is lost.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

13 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Compounding is more Allomancy than Feruchemy. You using Preservation Power filtered with Invested Metal - basicly you have magic Focus corelated with you,a dn this is what you really do, only change Focus - basicly full mealminds ate just new metal (physicly identical, but magicly different).

But the effect is feruchemical not allomantic.

Quote

Gemstone can be, and Spren is freed. one way or other, Spren is lost.

You overloaded the system. If you run too much Investiture through an allomancer you are also getting undesirable effects. Preservation is just a better designer.

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Spook was advising that you stick you stealing Allomancy and Feruchemy, since those are relatively safe and predictable applications. Don't bother trying to steal Intellect or Strength or stuff like that, Spook says, because Kandra and Koloss are only viable things that have ever come out of that, and they both have serious problems. It's all still stealing a piece of one spiritweb and stapling onto another. 

The allomancers whose power you steal surely have no channels for spikes in their brains. You are modifying the recipient beyond simple additions even if you make inquisitors. The effect is just small. But it is not just something that happens due to stealing attributes.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That also explains why there are metals like silver that show an arcane effect, but are useless in allomancy. Preservation just did not hook them up to the power supply.

I think the big question here is whether silver is useful for fabrials.

[Karger he/him]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, no. They are made from a salt of calcium, which is an isolator. As Wax tells us, an alloy is a differen material. So for determining what is a metal nuclear physics is inappropriate. We need to look at chemistry and crystallography.

But as we just stated singers have different body chemistry.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Primer cubes suggest that a living mind is not absolutely necessary.

Perhaps it is computational like a mechanical computer?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

But as we just stated singers have different body chemistry.

Yet they are still bound by the laws of chemistry. Elementary calcium in their bodies would still come into contact with water. Then it would explode. And humans would have noticed if their bones were metal. Nor is there a need for that. Human Knights Radiant can interact with a gem stone without metal. And the Singers do nothing with the spren in their gem hearts. They change form upon entry and need them to keep the form, but that's it. Whatever their ancesttors used spren bonds for they lost. It is annoying that there is no equivalent of apes and monkeys for them. Provided they were not outright created.

[Karger he/him]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Elementary calcium in their bodies would still come into contact with water. Then it would explode

If you wanted elemental calcium you could still probably trap it inside a crystal without bonding it chemically.  I was also thinking of other metals.  No reason exists why elemental iron or zinc could not be included in the bone structure.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

If you wanted elemental calcium you could still probably trap it inside a crystal without bonding it chemically.  I was also thinking of other metals.  No reason exists why elemental iron or zinc could not be included in the bone structure.

I keep having a mental image of something like a diamond (rhombus?) shaped crystal embedded in the chest of a singer, with a metal frame. Kinda like the chest gems from anime and stuff (which would technically be on-theme with the giant swords, glowing superheroes stuff).

[Trutharchivist he/him]

I feel like I'm playing Navani here: not a real scholar, just a patron (I mean, thread creator) that nudges the real scholars to the right direction. I actually wrote at length my personal opinion about the things on the table, but it somehow got erased, and I don't want ot write it all over. in short, what I wrote was: a. I believe that there is a natural way of bonding spren on Roshar, which has something to do with gemhearts, and I don't believe it's like a Nahel bond, nor am I sure it's like fabrials. b. Allomancy works in a system of keyhole - allomancer's spiritweb - and key - the metal. Fabrials work a little differently, but I still need to give more thought as to how exactly.

Anyway, returning to nudging! (If you think I have no right to try and pull the discussion to the way I want it to go feel free to say it, and then ignore what I said down here.)

On 10.9.2020 at 11:15 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I think it might have to do with the source of the Investiture and the fact that Feruchemy is a Resonance of Preservation and Ruin's powers. It takes things from both Allomancy and Hemalurgy.

Based on this, I thought of trying to figure out the workings of hemalurgy - which looks at first sight to be very orderly.

First of, I believe it is logical to assume that allomancy could be called external, since the source of it's investiture are external to the allomancer. Likewise, I believe it will be only logical to say feruchemy is internal, since it's source of investiture is the feruchemist himself. This classification works perfectly... in the physical quadrant, ignoring the fact physical strength is external, by this definition, and avoiding having to deal with the pushing/pulling division. The cognitive quadrant destroys it all by working exactly opposite to what I just stated. Maybe I should have started by explaining the pushing/pulling division, but then the higher metals would've destroyed it all. Anyone has better ideas?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

7 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

 

First of, I believe it is logical to assume that allomancy could be called external, since the source of it's investiture are external to the allomancer. Likewise, I believe it will be only logical to say feruchemy is internal, since it's source of investiture is the feruchemist himself. This classification works perfectly... in the physical quadrant, ignoring the fact physical strength is external, by this definition, and avoiding having to deal with the pushing/pulling division. The cognitive quadrant destroys it all by working exactly opposite to what I just stated. Maybe I should have started by explaining the pushing/pulling division, but then the higher metals would've destroyed it all. Anyone has better ideas?

As you see, external/internal thing is more about energy source but what about thinking as Feruchemy is always internal, and Allomancy always external? Internal effect of Allomancy is, nomen omen, effect, and clasification metod, but mechanism can be external. In 1st Era, when they did clasification, they didnt have all information. And you can see wierd mind gymnastic when Kel was talking to Vin about Copper and Bronze.

Lets go through metals:

Iron - this is easy A-external, F-Internal. Of course, weight generate gravity, but still is Internal change

Steel - the same.

Tin - Allomantic Tin is external, because is adding additional information to senses or brain from external source. Body is absorbing the sameamount of data from environment, but gains more information. In this case we can see "dimnisher effect" - senses need less stimuls to work with standard strengh

Feruchemical Tin is internal, because works internal - simply by changing sensitivity of senses in conventional way.

Pewter - This is very similar to Tin. Allomantic Pewter is external, because is prowiding additional strengh to muscles without physicly changing them. So this strengh must be external. Feruchemical Pewter changes directly muscle mass and strengh. Internaly.

Zinc - Easy one, no need to explain. We can find External effect of Feruchemy - its speeding up processing of external information. But still I think A-external F-Internal as a whole.

Brass - Also easy one. If you want to, you can find external effect of brass, but this will be strech.

Copper - As I mention earlier, A-Copper is clearly external. Is hiding drom detection, and I think is not shielding (pasivly) but in fact is Interfering with Bronze.

Bronze - the same as Copper. Gives additional external information about environment.

Cadmium - easy one, no need to explain.

Bendalloy - The same.

Gold - Similary like Tin and Bronze, A-Gold is providing you with information from external source - Spiritual realm.

Electrum - the same as Gold.

Aluminum - A-Aluminum is external, because is activly pulling out Investiture. Is like vacuum cleaner. F-Aluminum - Identity is as Internal as something can be.

Duralumin - A-Duralumin is external because is working opposite to Aluminum - is pushing into body additional Investiture. F-Duralumin is Internal, because is modifying Connection of Feruchemist to things around.

Chromium - Easy one. A-Chromium is directing A-Aluminum effect on someone else. And we dont know much about Fortune.

Nicrosil - Also Easy one. A-Nicrosil is similar to A-Duralumin. F-Nicrosil is storing Innate Investiture - internal human Investiture. Probably need some hacking to store something else.

 

I know Im now shaking the system, but I think easier is see Internal-external division as only nomenclature, artificial construct made for easier clasification. Like early Linneus system for animals.
 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Bzhydack

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

I know Im now shaking the system, but I think easier is see Internal-external division as only nomenclature, artificial construct made for easier clasification. Like early Linneus system for animals.

Well, depends on how you see this. Apparently you can sense the push/pull distinction with bronze. Chances are the rest is not completely made up either. The name probably comes from the first eight metals known during the Final Empire, where it makes sense for allomancy.

[Trutharchivist he/him]

Now I think I might've been a little unclear about my idea. What I thought was that the first hemalurgic quadrant could fit pretty well to the external/internal division - steel being the external pushing metal that steals allomantic attributes, and pewter as the internal pushing metal that steals feruchemical attributes. it didn't work, because it's switched in the cognitive quadrant. If what you talked has no connection to that feel free to ignore this comment.

Edit: Updated first post according to chapter 11's epigraph. note that pushing/pulling seems to work, though it appears they don't know what is the repelling metal, which should be steel.

Maybe we should work more on pushing/pulling division. In hemalurgy, the pulling metals always - except in the temporal/hybrid quadrant - steal attributes unrelated to additional investiture. The pushing ,metals steal always additional investiture related attributes, with the sole possible exception being duralumin.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Trutharchivist