theory Soulcaster Spren Theory

[+Bzhydack he/him]

This theory is bit streched, bu I think its interesting. Maybe some others have it, but I didnt see anything similar.

We know, that Roshar Planet and Roshar System number is 10. Everything on Roshar is revolving around this number - ten Surges, ten Essences, ten Radiant Orders and so on. But is one incosistency.

We have only 9 types of Inteligent Spren, Radiants Spren. Bondsmith Godspren are not "type" every one of them is unique. So should be one more type of inteligent spren.

So where they are?

Answer - bonded in Surge Fabrials. Soulcasters, Regrowth Fabrials, Oathgates etc. This type of Spren can be called Servespren - they like to help Humans. They can form Nahel Bond, but they dont like possibility to serve just one human/few humans, so they dont want to. In exchange, they chose to have artificiall bodies - Fabrials - and grant their powers to anyone.

And is one more Spren who did the same thing - Godspren Sibling. They have artificiall body - Urithiru - and serve everybody. I think Sibling is related to those Spren in the same way Stormfather is related to Honorspren - can be literaly "parrent" for them, can create them, and also can "grow" bodies for them. Yes, I think Soulcasters were not made, they grew in Urithiru. They can be made, of course, as normal fabrials, but first soulcasters probably grew.

Servespren can grant any Surge, but only one, and it is limited by his body - Fabrial.

You can ask - witch surges can Servespren grant, if he is Bonded by proper Nahel Bond? Its simple - Adhesion and Tension (in physical aspects).

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

If the Servespren are used in Oathgates and Soulcasters and such, I'd have to imagine the spren themselves are related to those surges in some way, so I doubt it's just adhesion and tension

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

On 12.09.2020 at 10:04 PM, Bzhydack said:

We have only 9 types of Inteligent Spren, Radiants Spren. Bondsmith Godspren are not "type" every one of them is unique. So should be one more type of inteligent spren.

We have a WoB cofirming that they are "kind of" one type of spren:

Quote

MoriWillow

So I was looking back through the scene where Shallan and gang is hunting the Midnight Essence and they come across that room covered in art, and I noticed something.

Shallan says there are murals that depict 10 kinds of spren and guesses they're for each Order. There's just one small issue. There's 12 Radiant spren. The Bondsmiths have 3 unique spren.

The passage in question with the relevant portion bolded.

Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds---made of thousands of tiles---adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren...ten kinds of spren. One for each Order?

So what do y'all think? Is there a representation of just one of the Bondsmith spren? Is it an abstract representstion of the idea of a Bondsmith spren? Is this a writing error and there was supposed to be 9, with the glowing cloud, tree woman, and figure in front of a circle intended to be the Bondsmith spren? Perhaps the Bondsmiths were supposed to be unrepresented?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to see this picture, the painting of the three spren to make Bondsmiths were made to make it visually clear they're the same kind of spren--and they KIND OF are.

The three you note above are not depicting the three spren of the Bondsmiths. One is depicting a perpendicularity, and the other two depicting Honor and Cultivation. These aren't the Bondsmith spren, but distinct and separate pieces of art.

General Reddit 2020 (April 3, 2020)

Also, there are non-Radiant, sapient True Spren:

Quote

Pagerunner

The mistspren, who crewed the Honorspren ship. Are they Radiant spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No they are not.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

The Soulcaster spren don't seem to be the same type as the Oathgate spren, Inkspren or Cryptics - otherwise Navani would surely recognize them. My best guess is that they are another type of sapient non-Radiant spren.

As for their motivation, I have my own theory: what if being in a fabrial allows spren to explore the Spiritual Realm, just like with Nahel bond and Physical Realm? Soulcaster spren are "sleeping" (seeing into the SR), but they must be awake at times (Kaza feels their presence when she uses the Soulcaster), which would explain the Oathgate spren being responsive when there are humans around. That would also work quite well with the Ars Arcanum, which states that the third magic system (clearly fabrials) is even more esoteric than Surgebinding and Voidbinding, despite the fact that regular fabrials work in a way that is extremely logical and scientific

[garlick]

I don't remember where, but wasn't it said that to gain soulcaster ect people visited aimia in the past?

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, garlick said:

I don't remember where, but wasn't it said that to gain soulcaster ect people visited aimia in the past?

Aimians were the experts for people who already had soulcasters and were having trouble using them as I understand it.

[Pathfinder]

On 9/22/2020 at 6:01 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

The Soulcaster spren don't seem to be the same type as the Oathgate spren, Inkspren or Cryptics - otherwise Navani would surely recognize them. My best guess is that they are another type of sapient non-Radiant spren.

Soulcaster and oathgate spren are similar. Take from that what you will:

 

Jofwu

In Kaza's interlude, she pulls out her Soulcaster and kind of describes, what seems like a presence of a spren that's there? Is that similar to the Oathgate spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Good job.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

On 9/22/2020 at 3:01 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

The Soulcaster spren don't seem to be the same type as the Oathgate spren, Inkspren or Cryptics - otherwise Navani would surely recognize them. My best guess is that they are another type of sapient non-Radiant spren.

To be fair, are the Oathgate spren described as resembling an Inkspren and a Cryptic? also why a Cryptic instead of a Lightspren, which shares Transportation with Inkspren?

I think the Oathgate spren are an Inkspren and Lightspren "evolved" by a Bondsmith injecting extra Investiture into them (kinda like... non-unmade? I guess? but not that strong).

So the Soulcaster spren could be Cryptics and Inkspren "evolved" as well, perhaps with less overall Investiture added to them. That would make them seem distinct, but they don't appear to be massive like Oathgate spren do.

[+Invocation]

5 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

kinda like... non-unmade?

I tend to call them the Remade in a contrast to the Unmade.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

25 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I tend to call them the Remade in a contrast to the Unmade.

But they weren't Unmade and then restored.

So they'd just be Made then.

[+Invocation]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

But they weren't Unmade and then restored.

So they'd just be Made then.

Boosting them enough to pierce all of the realms and transport through them would probably alter their natures. Not stripping something from them to Unmake them into something less, but Remaking (or Reforging, but that's too close to Shai stuff for my tastes) them tino something more and something better.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Invocation said:

Boosting them enough to pierce all of the realms and transport through them would probably alter their natures. Not stripping something from them to Unmake them into something less, but Remaking (or Reforging, but that's too close to Shai stuff for my tastes) them tino something more and something better.

Fair enough, but I still feel like "Remade" should be reserved for if we ever see someone "cure/fix" an Unmade back to being of Honor/Cultivation.

My brain wants to make up a new prefix to differentiate the "Made" from the Remade without just calling them "Made".

[+Invocation]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Fair enough, but I still feel like "Remade" should be reserved for if we ever see someone "cure/fix" an Unmade back to being of Honor/Cultivation.

My brain wants to make up a new prefix to differentiate the "Made" from the Remade without just calling them "Made".

Premade?

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Premade?

That sounds like it applies to the Spren prior to being enhanced...

Postmade? Sounds like Odium's mail service...

[+Invocation]

3 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That sounds like it applies to the Spren prior to being enhanced...

Postmade? Sounds like Odium's mail service...

Yeah I'm out of ideas.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Invocation said:

Yeah I'm out of ideas.

Same. Guess it's a futile effort to base the name on the Unmade.

If cousinspren are called Lesser Spren, and radiant spren are called True Spren, could these fabrial-oriented, powerful Spren be Greater Spren? And of course the three Bondsmith Spren have been referred to as Godspren before, being powerful enough and closely tied enough to the Shards of Roshar.

[+Invocation]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

If cousinspren are called Lesser Spren, and radiant spren are called True Spren, could these fabrial-oriented, powerful Spren be Greater Spren? And of course the three Bondsmith Spren have been referred to as Godspren before, being powerful enough and closely tied enough to the Shards of Roshar.

What if they're the actual Truespren? 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, Invocation said:

What if they're the actual Truespren? 

*Mind Blown*

[Innovation]

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Guess it's a futile effort to base the name on the Unmade.

Truemade? Fullmade? 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Truemade? Fullmade? 

Upmade maybe? Wierd, but sugestive...

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

19 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

To be fair, are the Oathgate spren described as resembling an Inkspren and a Cryptic? also why a Cryptic instead of a Lightspren, which shares Transportation with Inkspren?

I think the Oathgate spren are an Inkspren and Lightspren "evolved" by a Bondsmith injecting extra Investiture into them (kinda like... non-unmade? I guess? but not that strong).

So the Soulcaster spren could be Cryptics and Inkspren "evolved" as well, perhaps with less overall Investiture added to them. That would make them seem distinct, but they don't appear to be massive like Oathgate spren do.

I chose these three because:

A. Soulcaster spren are clearly different than Oathgate spren, so I wouldn't classify them both as Servespren

B. Inkspren and a Cryptics provide Transformation, and are, once again, different than Soulcaster spren. There are clearly more types of spren that can grant Surges (in one way or another) than we imagined, but I wouldn't classify them all as Servespren

I can absolutely agree with the rest of your point (though my guess would be Dawnshard rather than a Bondsmith)

On 25.09.2020 at 4:14 PM, Pathfinder said:

Soulcaster and oathgate spren are similar. Take from that what you will:

My guess would be that they act in a similar way, but their look (and therefore type) is still different

Edited September 26, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I chose these three because:

A. Soulcaster spren are clearly different than Oathgate spren

They aren't clearly different. That is your theory, and I wish you luck on it, but it is a theory predicated only because Navani didn't specifically say "hey they are the exact same ones". 

Quote

B. Inkspren and a Cryptics provide Transformation, and are, once again, different than Soulcaster spren. There are clearly more types of spren that can grant Surges (in one way or another) than we imagined, but I wouldn't classify them all as Servespren

Inkspren also provide transportation in addition to transformation. Again, I certainly wish you luck with your theory, but I do not see anything that says they are clearly a different type. 

 

for reference the quote is:

"Spren manifested as larger, or more complete versions of what was seen in the Physical Realm.

Soulcasters manifested as small unresponsive spren, hovering with their eyes closed. So the Soulcasters did have a captured spren. A Radiant spren, judging by their shape. Intelligent, rather than the more animal-like spren captured to power normal fabrials.

These spren were held captive in Shadesmar, and made to power Soulcasters."

 

The only specific difference mentioned is that the soulcaster spren are "small unresponsive, hovering with their eyes closed", versus normal spren "larger or more complete versions"

Edited September 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

They aren't clearly different. That is your theory, and I wish you luck on it, but it is a theory predicated only because Navani didn't specifically say "hey they are the exact same ones". 

The Oathgate spren are also the size of a building and come in pairs, which seem like significant differences. I'm assuming here that spren cannot change their size in Shadesmar, as we've only seen them doing it in the Physical Realm. Cryptics don't have eyes, so they are out of the picture. That leaves us with only Inkspren as a real possibility, in my opinion.

My main issue here is Navani, though. She's very interested in solving the problem of creating Surge fabrials, believing (probably correctly) that it would provide clues to fixing Urithiru. If Soulcaster spren were identical (or at least very similar) to known spren, she would likely talk to Jasnah and Ivory about it (or Shallan and Pattern, or the Oathgate spren). Instead, we only get a vague 'A Radiant spren, judging by their shape', which I take as evidence that the are humanoid in shape.

Can I be 100% sure of this? Of course not, but I honestly don't see any way of Soulcaster spren being of any known type without making Navani an unreliable narrator and/or introducing easily fixable plot holes

Edited September 27, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The Oathgate spren are also the size of a building and come in pairs, which seem like significant differences. I'm assuming here that spren cannot change their size in Shadesmar, as we've only seen them doing it in the Physical Realm. Cryptics don't have eyes, so they are out of the picture. That leaves us with only Inkspren as a real possibility, in my opinion.

My main issue here is Navani, though. She's very interested in solving the problem of creating Surge fabrials, believing (probably correctly) that it would provide clues to fixing Urithiru. If Soulcaster spren were identical (or at least very similar) to known spren, she would likely talk to Jasnah and Ivory about it (or Shallan and Pattern, or the Oathgate spren). Instead, we only get a vague 'A Radiant spren, judging by their shape', which I take as evidence that the are humanoid in shape.

Can I be 100% sure of this? Of course not, but I honestly don't see any way of Soulcaster spren being of any known type without making Navani an unreliable narrator and/or introducing easily fixable plot holes

Or, we could take her comment at face value and the spren are just too small to tell. That the only discernable traits that can be made out lend her to believe it is a radiant spren but it is hard to discern for certain 

Further it could just be the effect the fabrial has on the spren that results in their sizing. 

Side note, there is also the fact that jasnah has held information back out of respect to ivory at his request and navani knows that Jasnah has not told her everything from her trip

Edited September 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

On 27.09.2020 at 8:03 PM, Pathfinder said:

Or, we could take her comment at face value and the spren are just too small to tell. That the only discernable traits that can be made out lend her to believe it is a radiant spren but it is hard to discern for certain 

Further it could just be the effect the fabrial has on the spren that results in their sizing. 

Side note, there is also the fact that jasnah has held information back out of respect to ivory at his request and navani knows that Jasnah has not told her everything from her trip

Navani was able to tell that the spren's eyes were closed, so they couldn't have been that small.

Fabrials having effect on spren size are a possibility, but we have only seen anything similar in the Physical Realm so far.

Fair point about Jasnah

[Pathfinder]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:16 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Navani was able to tell that the spren's eyes were closed, so they couldn't have been that small.

Not to be nitpicky, but there is a host of ways to gain that kind of information without having to be able to identify the spren. 

On 9/28/2020 at 5:16 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Fabrials having effect on spren size are a possibility, but we have only seen anything similar in the Physical Realm so far.

I was referring to the oathgates having giant spren in the cognitive realm

On 9/28/2020 at 5:16 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Fair point about Jasnah

Thanks!