Yet Another Dawnshards and Ashyn Theory

[LewsTherinTelescope]

TL;DR

Dawnshards "bind" things to powers, sorta. They were used to make the Surge fabrials, and before that, were used on Ashyn to create the disease magic, a pandemic of which is what led to the Exodus.

I can't actually take full credit for the theory; I saw the theory they were used to make Soulcasters elsewhere, but I can't remember where to give credit, unfortunately. So far as I know, however, the latter theory is my own.

First, what do we know about these things?

Spoiler

• Dawnshards:
  • One was in Aimia (and most likely still is, considering Brandon said "yes" before he caught himself). [1]
  • One is different from the rest [2]
  • Honor considered them important to the fight against Odium [3]
  • They were used to cause the cataclysm that forced both the Exodus [4] and the fleeing to the floating cities [5]
  • At least one was at one time believed to be able to "bind any creature voidish or mortal" [6]
• Soulcasters:
  • Seem to match the Surge of Transformation much more directly than a normal fabrial
  • Use spren that are in Shadesmar, and potentially even Radiant spren [7]
  • Came from Aimia [8]
• Other Surge fabrials:
  • Brandon seems to consider the Regrowth fabrial similar to Soulcasters in that it accesses a Surge directly [9]
• The Ashynite cataclysm
  • Involved the Dawnshards [4]
  • Caused the Exodus [4]
  • "Forced people into the skies" in their floating cities [5]
  • May have been caused by disease magic getting out of control [10]     (canonicity questionable, as it is from a reading from The Silence Divine)
  • Odium was "instrumental" [11]
• Spren:
  • Nahel bonds [12] and fabrials [13] are examples of Cosmere-wide phenomena
  • Bondsmith powers:
  • Essentially power of Connection [14]
  • Likely existed on Ashyn [14]?
  • A Bondsmith "bound other Surges" [14]
  • Created or discovered the Nahel bond [14]
• Ashynite magic:
  • Magic used to destroy Ashyn used the "same basic principles" as Surgebinding, specifically referring to the Surges themselves [15]
  • Investiture usage on Ashyn was not always disease-based [16]
  • The diseases would likely still give powers off-planet [16]

Now, for wild speculation connecting these things!
Here's the ones I'm at least semi-confident in:

Spoiler

• Soulcasters were made by the Aimian Dawnshard, binding spren to the device
  • They somehow have a spren bound to the fabrial
  • Dawnshards (or at least a Dawnshard) can "bind any creature"
  • Soulcasters come from the only place with a confirmed Dawnshard
• A pandemic of one or more of the diseases granting magic caused the Ashynite cataclysms
  • In reading from The Silence Divine, the main character thinks about how staying away from Incubators is important
    • The "sky" (actually, destroyed ground) above is a reminder of the consequences of not doing so to him
  • If thousands to hundreds of thousands of people suddenly get crazy magic powers, and it's super easy to get them, things will go badly.
• The Exodus was only of people who had avoided getting sick, or had gotten over any diseases they had had
  • WoB implies that the diseases could work and spread offworld
  • Don't think they'd risk carrying it over
  • If they had the diseases, we would likely have some hints of it still
• The old Ashynite magic system was used to create the Dawnshards in the first place, unless they were a gift from a Shard directly
  • Otherwise, where would they come from?
• The one that is "different" is possibly just because the others are broken and that one still functions

But what about the parts you aren't confident in?

Alright then, he's some much more stretch-y parts of the theory/smaller separate theories.

Spoiler

• Dawnshards were used to create, or at least enhance, the disease magic
  • Explains how the Dawnshards were so involved in Ashyn's destruction
  • The disease magic is from bonds between microorganisms and "spren-like Investiture" [17]
    • If the Dawnshards can bind spren to things, perhaps they can bond these "spren-like" things to the microorganisms
• An Ashynite Bondsmith made the Dawnshards
  • Power over Connection seems like a good way to make things that bind things
  • "Bondsmith bound the other Surges" and all
• The old Ashyn magic was of Odium, or at least the Dawnshards were
  • He was "instrumental" in what occurred
  • Planet had a full, proper magic system, which tends to only occur on planets with Shards
  • System no longer being around is probably because Odium left
• Old Ashynite magic was spren bonds
  • The "spren-like Investiture" involved in the disease magic could mean Ashyn has or had an equivalent to spren. Perhaps an equivalent to truespren too?
• Each Dawnshard could bind one Surge
  • Soulcasters seem to be way more common than the other Surge fabrials
  • Perhaps Transformation Dawnshard still works/worked for longer, others were damaged
    • Means Soulcasters could keep being made up until Scouring at least
    • Others couldn't be made, so as remaining ones broke over time, they ran out
  • The "different" one is just the one that still functions
• Either nine or ten Dawnshards, just because that's how these things tend to go
  • Maybe nine normal Dawnshards, and the "different" one is a tenth meta-Dawnshard used to make the others?
    • Seems a bit unlikely to me though

I'm here for crazy theories, these at least have some evidence or logic! I want my money back!

Spoiler

What, that wasn't crazy enough? It's a theory on Dawnshards, that basically makes it crazy speculation on its own! Also, what do you mean you want your money back, you didn't even pay me for this in the first place. Fine, here's some crazier ones that I don't for a moment believe, but momentarily popped into my head:

• The first Nahel bonds were made using the Dawnshards
  • Syl says a Bondsmith created or discovered the bond. I have no idea what this could be referring to. And that's not sarcastic, I've got no storming clue. So maybe Dawnshards? But I don't really believe that. Maybe a Bondsmith was just the first Radiant, who knows.
• The Honorblades were perhaps inspired by the Dawnshards
  • Not necessarily in mechanics, but in spirit
  • Believable, but I have no evidence for it, so I'm going with not the case
• The name "Surgebinding" could come because previously, they had to bind the Surges to things to use them
  • Now, they can just use the Surges themselves, but the name stuck around
  • Seems unnecessary though, Surgebinding just being because they bind the forces of nature to their will makes more sense

Closing thoughts

[insert my usual disclaimer about typos and odd ways of phrasing things, because I'm too lazy for more than a cursory scan of what I wrote]

I'm not convinced of this theory, but I prefer it to just Surge enhancers. So yeah. And I like it more and more as I think about it.

And as usual, this theory is somewhat rushed and not super thought through. So may have some glaring issues I didn't notice, idk.

Edit: Ah, I first heard the idea on this Shardcast episode. Turns out the base theory is... embarrassingly close to identical to one of the ideas they speculated on. I did expand on it a lot, and speculate about more details, but the basic idea I apparently subconsciously took nearly unchanged. Oops

References

Spoiler

1. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13040
2. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/226/#e4824
3. The Way of Kings, chapter 75
4. Oathbringer, chapter 113
5. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8243
6. The Way of Kings, chapter 36 epigraph (available at https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Epigraphs#Chapter_36)
7. Rhythm of War, chapter 9 (available at https://www.tor.com/2020/09/01/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-chapter-nine/)
8. Oathbringer interlude I-4
9. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3817
10. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/201/#e12303
11. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262/#e8808
12. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3488
13. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12918
14. Rhythm of War, Syl interlude from the newsletter
15. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8690
16. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11304
17. https://reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/ixrjoc/a_doubt_about_the_ashynite_magic/g6e1p3j?context=3

Edited October 19, 2020 by beewall
Changed: lists are now bulleted instead of paragraphs, use spoiler boxes instead of divider lines

[slipwiz]

going to add to your crazy theory (if you dont mind)   the suge binding may explain why the Fuze only have 1 surge instead of 2  .  the magic being ported over by Odiun from Ashyn  and given to his new followers... Odium missing the bondsmith (the 10 surge) prevent them from gettting the double surge given by the Nahel bond..

 

(take tin foil hat off)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

33 minutes ago, slipwiz said:

going to add to your crazy theory (if you dont mind)   the suge binding may explain why the Fuze only have 1 surge instead of 2  .  the magic being ported over by Odiun from Ashyn  and given to his new followers... Odium missing the bondsmith (the 10 surge) prevent them from gettting the double surge given by the Nahel bond..

 

(take tin foil hat off)

Tbh my tinfoil on why there's only 9 Fused types is that the Unmade are somehow related. That, or there are in fact Bondsmith Fused, just only a few and they don't go to battle, similar to real Bondsmiths.

[garlick]

I posted a while back on reddit with an idea ive since mostly abandoned. It was the Dawnshard were aethers (Which im still on the fence about). That theory I was thinking along the lines of the old fabrials, soulcasters, healing fabrials ect were created using dawnshards, but in a much different way. I was thinking each dawnshard granted one surge and all the old fabrials had a piece of one hidden inside which granted a surge. Then I went on that it was possible 2 pieces were added to the honor blades on thier creation.

With the new chapters talking about meditating spren being connected to the device that tossed out the idea each contained a piece of aether/Dawnshard. But with a dawnshard being found in aimia and that being the place to go get soulcaster in the past I think this idea is on point. 

 I doubt my post was the one that sparked your idea but I figured id throw a recap of what I said just in case. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, garlick said:

I posted a while back on reddit with an idea ive since mostly abandoned. It was the Dawnshard were aethers (Which im still on the fence about). That theory I was thinking along the lines of the old fabrials, soulcasters, healing fabrials ect were created using dawnshards, but in a much different way. I was thinking each dawnshard granted one surge and all the old fabrials had a piece of one hidden inside which granted a surge. Then I went on that it was possible 2 pieces were added to the honor blades on thier creation.

With the new chapters talking about meditating spren being connected to the device that tossed out the idea each contained a piece of aether/Dawnshard. But with a dawnshard being found in aimia and that being the place to go get soulcaster in the past I think this idea is on point. 

 I doubt my post was the one that sparked your idea but I figured id throw a recap of what I said just in case. 

If Dawnshards are aethers, those things are a lot more powerful than they were in AoN XD (though them being the aether sources could make sense, if aethers were somehow on Roshar)

Your theory could very well be what gave me the idea, I only vaguely remember "I think I saw a theory something like what I just wrote" lol. If so, then thanks for the inspiration! (If not, thanks for making a theory anyway, because theories are fun to read.)

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

On 20.09.2020 at 5:55 PM, beewall said:

Also, anyone have any idea where the theory that Dawnshards made the Soulcasters came from? No idea where I saw it the first time.

As far as I can tell it's never said explicitly, but the correlation between a Dawnshard located in Aimia, Soulcasters only being created there and modern artifabrians being unable to replicate them is rather striking. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't true

On 20.09.2020 at 5:55 PM, beewall said:

An Ashynite Bondsmith made the Dawnshards. Power over Connection seems like a good way to make things that bind things.

Given the enormous power of the Dawnshards, I think the other way around seems more likely: Bondsmiths were Dawnshard users

On 20.09.2020 at 5:55 PM, beewall said:

The old Ashynite magic system was used to create the Dawnshards in the first place. Otherwise, where would they come from?

My best guesses would be splinters from a Shard (an Avatar of Honor and/or Cultivation maybe) that was Invested there and responsible for the original, Surge-based magic, or remnants of the weapon that killed Adonalsium

On 20.09.2020 at 5:55 PM, beewall said:

The first Nahel bonds were made using the Dawnshards. Syl says a Bondsmith created or discovered the bond. I have no idea what this could be referring to. And that's not sarcastic, I've got no storming clue. So maybe Dawnshards? But I don't really believe that. Maybe a Bondsmith was just the first Radiant, who knows.

The Bondsmith here was almost certainly Ishar, who had great knowledge about Connection and bonds in general, allowing him to figure out the details of bonding spren on the new planet

On 20.09.2020 at 5:55 PM, beewall said:

Dawnshards were used to create, or at least enhance, the disease magic. After all, they were used on Ashyn, which so far as we know, has no spren.

We know from Eila Stele that humans used the powers of "Surge and spren". With spren being ubiquitous on both Roshar and Braize, I think it's very likely they were also on Ashyn when there was a Shardic presence there. Disease magic, on the other hand, uses local organisms as a focus of magic, which is a feature of magic systems on minor, Shardless worlds (e.g. First of the Sun). It also shares the "boon and curse" paradigm of the Old Magic, another minor magic system from the Rosharan system. The simplest explanation would be that disease magic originated when all Shards (the original Shard providing the Surge magic and/or Odium) left Ashyn

Edited September 22, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Given the enormous power of the Dawnshards, I think the other way around seems more likely: Bondsmiths were Dawnshard users

I could believe that too, yeah. In that case, presumably the Dawnshards would be directly given from a Shard, I think.

6 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The Bondsmith here was almost certainly Ishar, who had great knowledge about Connection and bonds in general, allowing him to figure out the details of bonding spren on the new planet

The thing is, it seems like the Heralds didn't expect Surgebinding, iirc. Unless what they didn't expect was spren being able to repeat it without using a Dawnshard to initiate the bond?

8 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

With spren being ubiquitous on both Roshar and Braize, I think it's very likely they were also on Ashyn when there was a Shardic presence there.

That's a fair point. In that case, some form of spren bond for their old magic seems likely.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 23.09.2020 at 0:35 AM, beewall said:

I could believe that too, yeah. In that case, presumably the Dawnshards would be directly given from a Shard, I think.

Yeah, and because Dawnshards have power of Bonding, so this will be probably Honor.

I have also theory about Ashyn, maybe we can Fuse them:

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

because Dawnshards have power of Bonding, so this will be probably Honor.

Not necessarily, spren bonds are a Cosmere-wide mechanic. But Honor and Odium are probably the top two candidates (Odium because "he was instrumental", Honor because that makes more sense than Cultivation).

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I have also theory about Ashyn, maybe we can Fuse them:

Thanks, I'll give it a read!