Corrupting the heart?

[Gilphon]

So, what, exactly, is Raboniel planning to do to the gemstone column? What she says is this:

Quote

"Using my natural talents, and the gifts of Odium, I will corrupt that heart, and turn the tower to our needs."

And she later implies that her plan doesn't involve holding the entire tower, just getting her close to the column, further reinforcing the idea that she intends to do something magic to it.

But what? She's a Fannahn-im, so I think we can assume she's a Soulcaster. Is that enough to accomplish her plan? I can't entirely rule that out- perhaps changing up the metals and gems in the columns could be enough- but she made it sound like she's planning to do something to the Sibling itself. 

And then there's her phrasing; her natural talents and the gifts of Odium. As if those are two separate things. Are we hinting at Voidish Transformation here, maybe? 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

9 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So, what, exactly, is Raboniel planning to do to the gemstone column? What she says is this:

And she later implies that her plan doesn't involve holding the entire tower, just getting her close to the column, further reinforcing the idea that she intends to do something magic to it.

But what? She's a Fannahn-im, so I think we can assume she's a Soulcaster. Is that enough to accomplish her plan? I can't entirely rule that out- perhaps changing up the metals and gems in the columns could be enough- but she made it sound like she's planning to do something to the Sibling itself. 

And then there's her phrasing; her natural talents and the gifts of Odium. As if those are two separate things. Are we hinting at Voidish Transformation here, maybe? 

Firstly, Raboniel immediately struck me as the sort of Fused-Navani character, with her interest in Fabrials and Spren.

My personal crackpot hypothesis is that her plan involves trying to use Sja-Anat to corrupt the Sibling itself, to change the function the Column will produce.

[Karger he/him]

48 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

But what? She's a Fannahn-im, so I think we can assume she's a Soulcaster. Is that enough to accomplish her plan? I can't entirely rule that out- perhaps changing up the metals and gems in the columns could be enough- but she made it sound like she's planning to do something to the Sibling itself. 

I think it more likely that she does cohesion.  The Fannahn-im are " the builders who had created the palace" and I don't think doing that by soulcasting is super efficient.

47 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

And then there's her phrasing; her natural talents and the gifts of Odium. As if those are two separate things.

I agree that they are different.  She is clearly quite important.  Perhaps she is some kind of special build?

Edited October 6, 2020 by Karger

[Gilphon]

 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think it more likely that she does cohesion.  The Fannahn-im are " the builders who had created the palace" and I don't think doing that by soulcasting is super efficient.

'Those Ones who Alter' sounds a lot more like Transformation than Cohesion to me. Like it's almost literally 'the ones who can transform things'.

Though really her having cohesion would just make this question more important; that doesn't have any obvious applications to this plan at all.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Gilphon

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

'Those Ones who Alter' sounds a lot more like Transformation than Cohesion to me. Like it's almost literally 'the ones who can transform things'.

I might agree with you but look at the other names.  The "ones of husks" has nothing overtly similar to Transportation(or whichever surge Lezian is using), the "heavenly ones" has nothing to do with Gravitation and the ones of mask has nothing to do with Lightweaving.  Their names seem to be based on the overt things they do not the actual relmatic ways they do it.  Soulcasting is possible but we know they have Cohesion and using it seems much more efficient for building then Transformation.

[Gilphon]

Surely the cohesion Brand would be 'the ones who soften' or 'the ones of stone' or something along those lines. Something that directly invokes their powers, not something that invokes the powers of an entirely different Brand.

And I disagree that it would be more efficient. Like Cohesion would need a source of stone that they don't mind using up, whereas Transformation just needs Voidlight, and they don't seem to be lacking in that.

[LuckyJim]

4 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Surely the cohesion Brand would be 'the ones who soften' or 'the ones of stone' or something along those lines. Something that directly invokes their powers, not something that invokes the powers of an entirely different Brand.

And I disagree that it would be more efficient. Like Cohesion would need a source of stone that they don't mind using up, whereas Transformation just needs Voidlight, and they don't seem to be lacking in that.

They have plenty of stone, the entire Kholinar palace that the slaves were tearing down at the end of Oathbringer. Plus, to soulcast you'd still need other materials, you can't just soulcast something out of nothing.

[Gilphon]

That's technically true, but only technically, because you can soulcast things out of air.

[dgreene196]

1

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I might agree with you but look at the other names.  The "ones of husks" has nothing overtly similar to Transportation(or whichever surge Lezian is using), the "heavenly ones" has nothing to do with Gravitation and the ones of mask has nothing to do with Lightweaving.  Their names seem to be based on the overt things they do not the actual relmatic ways they do it.  Soulcasting is possible but we know they have Cohesion and using it seems much more efficient for building then Transformation.

Lezian's name seems appropriate to me:  His (presumed, by me, at least) Transportation ends each trip with the creation of a body, which he can abandon as a quickly-decomposing husk.

And what Surge are the Heavenly ones using if not Gravitation?  It certainly looks very similar to the Basic Lashings of Windrunners and Skybreakers.

As for Raboniel, I do believe her group (the fannahn-im) use Transformation.  Why?

• Building construction in Roshar has a long tradition of Soulcasting.  A group that can Soulcast directly with Investiture (rather than through a Fabrial Soulcaster) can create something quite beautiful compared to the functional barracks of the Alethi.  Take Jasnah's Bronze wall, for example.
• More importantly, Soulcasting biological constructs could be a means of creating a deadly bioweapon, given the technological levels of humans and singers.  I think it would be much more challenging for someone using Cohesion to directly research bioweapons.  At least, based on what we currently know.

[dgreene196]

Also, no one give Jasnah the idea of Soulcasting bioweapons.  Thankfully, biologic Soulcasting, according to her, isn't a natural strength.  That could be even worse for Roshar than Navani's fabrial arms race...

[Innovation]

10 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Building construction in Roshar has a long tradition of Soulcasting.  A group that can Soulcast directly with Investiture (rather than through a Fabrial Soulcaster) can create something quite beautiful compared to the functional barracks of the Alethi.  Take Jasnah's Bronze wall, for example.

Jasnah could brute-force through barriers thanks to the current perpendicularity connection and her massive amount of Stormlight. 

10 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

• More importantly, Soulcasting biological constructs could be a means of creating a deadly bioweapon, given the technological levels of humans and singers.  I think it would be much more challenging for someone using Cohesion to directly research bioweapons.  At least, based on what we currently know.

She could have used Fabrials to make the disease. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Innovation

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Lezian's name seems appropriate to me:  His (presumed, by me, at least) Transportation ends each trip with the creation of a body, which he can abandon as a quickly-decomposing husk.

Exactly but his name does not reference his transportation but rather the overt phenomena around what he does while transporting.

2 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

And what Surge are the Heavenly ones using if not Gravitation?  It certainly looks very similar to the Basic Lashings of Windrunners and Skybreakers.

Oh I agree completely but their name just references that they spend time in the sky not that they can manipulate gravity.

3 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Building construction in Roshar has a long tradition of Soulcasting.  A group that can Soulcast directly with Investiture (rather than through a Fabrial Soulcaster) can create something quite beautiful compared to the functional barracks of the Alethi.  Take Jasnah's Bronze wall, for example.

I agree to a point but cohesion is so inherently suited to building that it seems odd you would opt to use soulcasters instead.  True you have to import mass but in the mind of an organized builder that is an advantage as you can also dispose of rubble efficiently.

5 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

More importantly, Soulcasting biological constructs could be a means of creating a deadly bioweapon, given the technological levels of humans and singers.  I think it would be much more challenging for someone using Cohesion to directly research bioweapons.  At least, based on what we currently know.

I personally do not think that either the surge of Transformation or Cohesion would be particularly suited to making a bio-weapon.  Given that her other interests are in bonds, spren, radiants, surges, and oaths I would actually peg her as something more analogous to a Truthwatcher if we did not have context.  I think it more probable that she created the bio-weapon through conventional means.

7 minutes ago, dgreene196 said:

Also, no one give Jasnah the idea of Soulcasting bioweapons.  Thankfully, biologic Soulcasting, according to her, isn't a natural strength.  That could be even worse for Roshar than Navani's fabrial arms race...

I don't think soulcasting an organic material that does not yet exist would be particularly easy for a soulcaster.  We have seen they can copy existing ones pretty well but making something from scratch seems a lot harder. 

[Gderu]

I think that her plan is purely related to fabrials mechanics. I have posted a theory in the past that claims that chromium was used in the Radiant dampener. I think that the same method is used in the Urithiru fabrial, except for the fact that there is a different target there. In the Radiant dampener, the target is Connection with Honor. In the Urithiru fabrial, the target is Connection with Odium. I think that Raboniel simply means to change the target of the Connection in Urithiru to Honor instead of Odium, and then she'll make Urithiru wake up.

That scene sounds so amazing. Radiants looking around them as Urithiru lights up, cheering and excited, until they notice that they cannot use stormlight.

[Honorless he/him]

I too think that they are using Cohesion rather than Transformation. They are molding substances into different shapes: the rock into architectural structures, their own chitin into helmet. They are not changing one substance into another. Their roles as builders and engineers seem closer to Willshapers than Elsecallers too.

Besides, one doesn't need to be an Elsecaller-lite to be an Artifabrian, just ask Navani. She's a fabrial scientist, which is probably what she's referring to as her natural talent. Maybe the structure of Urithiru has something to do with its function, and that's what she is referring to by Odium's gifts, that she will change the structure of the pillar or some other thing in the Tower. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Honorless

[+Bzhydack he/him]

I also think Fannahn-im have Cohesion. Is much more fitting for builders, also can very good explain how Raboniel is going to corrupt heart of Sibling - she is going to mold metal around Gem and re-shape it, changing cage of this fabrial.

This will also set interesting dynamic between Raboniel and Venli - as Venli will be the one, who will undo Raboniels work (under Navanis direction probably).

[dgreene196]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think soulcasting an organic material that does not yet exist would be particularly easy for a soulcaster.  We have seen they can copy existing ones pretty well but making something from scratch seems a lot harder. 

We haven't seen any really experienced Soulcasters with a natural affinity for Soulcasting.  We've seen Jasnah do some pretty impressive things.  And maybe Shallan was Soulcasting weight into her illusions (again, per Jasnah).  However, I'm not certain Jasnah could Soulcast a living being into stone in the way the Nine are described (or surround them with Stone).

It's going to be interesting to find out more, and what's really accurate.  I'm not totally loving Venli as a character yet (though I can't say I loved Dalinar when he was actively influenced by the Thrill, and that's similar to the state Venli experiences while in a form of Voidish power, right?), but finding out about the Singer culture and abilities.  Very interesting.

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, dgreene196 said:

However, I'm not certain Jasnah could Soulcast a living being into stone in the way the Nine are described (or surround them with Stone).

Jasnah does both in WoKs and OB respectively(in OB it is oil but I don't think it really matters for the purpose of discussion).

[dgreene196]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Jasnah does both in WoKs and OB respectively(in OB it is oil but I don't think it really matters for the purpose of discussion).

But her victims aren't alive still after the process, which the Nine are, which is what I was trying to get across.  It's not even clear with the text if they're encased in stone are somehow merged into the stone columns.  Jasnah has tremendous skill in Soulcasting (I believe there are references to her Soulcasting fire into her papers as a means of writing notes, and she cleansed Shallan of breakneck powder despite noting she's not good at blood Soulcasting), but I definitely don't think we've seen the limit of Soulcasting capabilities, and I suspect the Fused have some abilities the Soulcasting human Surgebinders haven't considered.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, dgreene196 said:

 It's not even clear with the text if they're encased in stone are somehow merged into the stone columns.

Quote

Nine pillars adorned the center of the chamber, rising in a circle. The stones had been Soulcast into shape—with people inside them

Seems fairly clear.

1 hour ago, dgreene196 said:

but I definitely don't think we've seen the limit of Soulcasting capabilities, and I suspect the Fused have some abilities the Soulcasting human Surgebinders haven't considered.

That is probably true but it is also probably true for pretty much all the surges.  Additionally I do not think we should underestimate the potential of what a genius fused with six millennia of training under her belt and access to information via Odium can do with just her mind and proper equipment.  Her brewing up a virus with the potential you are talking about via pure soulcasting seems unrealistic given that it took a cooperative effort of the modern world's medical professionals over a month to sequence covid.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Karger

[Second-of-the-Dawn]

On 10/6/2020 at 9:40 PM, Gderu said:

I think that her plan is purely related to fabrials mechanics. I have posted a theory in the past that claims that chromium was used in the Radiant dampener. I think that the same method is used in the Urithiru fabrial, except for the fact that there is a different target there. In the Radiant dampener, the target is Connection with Honor. In the Urithiru fabrial, the target is Connection with Odium. I think that Raboniel simply means to change the target of the Connection in Urithiru to Honor instead of Odium, and then she'll make Urithiru wake up.

That scene sounds so amazing. Radiants looking around them as Urithiru lights up, cheering and excited, until they notice that they cannot use stormlight.

Since Lift can get Investiture straight from food, and that's based of the intervention of Cultivation, not Honor, does that mean she would be the only Radiant in Urithiru with access to her full abilities?

[Quantus he/him]

To the OP, what Raboniel said was that their Surge Suppression technology is something she stole and/or reverse engineered from a function of the Tower way in the past.  Currently the Tower prevents them from attacking because it suppresses "their" abilities (implied to mean Voidlight-based abilities). Raboniel says that, since the Sibling is not present to give them full access to the Tower's abilities, she believes she can sneak in and Invert this specific Tower Function, so it Suppresses Radiant/Stormlight Surges and not Voidlight Surges as it does presently.  In other words, the small fabrial was a proof of concept, and now she is proposing making the same modification from the Original (ie the Urithiru Tower Systems).  Once htey do that, the Void forces can attack at full stregth, while any Radiant below the 4th ideal will lose their powers.  

 

11 minutes ago, Second-of-the-Dawn said:

Since Lift can get Investiture straight from food, and that's based of the intervention of Cultivation, not Honor, does that mean she would be the only Radiant in Urithiru with access to her full abilities?

Depends how the suppression works, but I doubt it.  Her thing is described as metabolizing blood sugar into Stormlight rather than being able to inhale it from Gems the way the rest do.  But once she has it and is holding the Stormlight it starts to work in all the normal ways as any other Edgedancer (healing, etc).  If she's going to get around the suppression, I'd bet on it coming from her weird realmic part-spren status that uniquely lets her touch Wyndle, rather than the stromlight metabolism.