When a Returned dies prematurely

[aneonfoxtribute]

So every Returned has a purpose. But what happens when one dies prematurely, before fulfilling their purpose? Did they have a purpose other than to die later? Or did they have another purpose they they were never able to fulfill? How badly can that screw up Endowment's plans? I never thought of this before and I think its an interesting topic 

[Quantus he/him]

 

"Purpose" is kind of a strong word, Endowment's goals are both non-specific and inconsistent.  

 

 

Quote

 

Trae

Previously, you've revealed that the mechanism that determines the Returned on Nalthis is a decision of a sapient entity... Is the determination by which the entity that selects the recipient of a Divine Breath to come back as a Returned predicated on that recipient fulfilling some purpose in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

...Basically they are asking... "Why does the entity that picks who Returns, why did they pick who they did?" And, your question kind of implies there's, like, specific tasks to fulfill. I'm gonna say, there aren't specifics, but there are certain things this entity is looking for--

Trae

In the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There are certain things that they are looking for. Now, sometimes-- let's just say this entity is not necessarily the most consistent of entities in the cosmere when it comes to making decisions like this. But there are certain things they are looking for.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

 

[Weltall]

I suspect that Edgli just shrugs and moves on. She's got to know that the Returned don't remember the details of what they saw when the offer was made and are only getting glimpses of the big picture through dreams and art, and Shards have effectively all the time in the world so even if she had a specific goal she was hoping a given Returned would accomplish, failures here and there aren't likely to bother her too much.

[KSub]

Despite the quote Quantus provided I think Endowment selects all of the Returned to fulfill a fairly specific purpose. Brandon seems like he's trying hard to not be specific when he's answering that question.

I think Endowment is using futuresight to select Returned that will further her goals. When one of them dies before fulfilling their Purpose it could throw a wrench into her plans. She is playing a long game however, so it's like losing a piece in a game of chess. She didn't plan for it but she just needs to adjust her plan. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:20 PM, KSub said:

Despite the quote Quantus provided I think Endowment selects all of the Returned to fulfill a fairly specific purpose. Brandon seems like he's trying hard to not be specific when he's answering that question.

I think Endowment is using futuresight to select Returned that will further her goals. When one of them dies before fulfilling their Purpose it could throw a wrench into her plans. She is playing a long game however, so it's like losing a piece in a game of chess. She didn't plan for it but she just needs to adjust her plan. 

It's also possible that Endowment has a specific purpose in mind for only a select few of the Returned, and that other ones - maybe even the majority of them - are decoys of sorts, to provide cover for the ones with a purpose. Random people, including infants, are Returned for no obvious reason exactly because there was no reason except to obscure ones like Lightsong (perhaps) who were given a vision of something specific to prevent, that he'd be put into a position to recognize and do something about at The Right Time.

I mean, if every Returned were seen to be Doing Something Dramatic eventually with their Divine Breath, it'd be possible to piece together an idea of what Endowment was going after, right? Maybe not for a human what with a mortal lifespan, but for another Shard that was paying attention to such things. Or Hoid. Or scholars in Silverlight.

This way, while some Returned eventually do something interesting with their Divine Breath, only some of what is interesting was commissioned by Endowment; others die without ever using it at all, and still others like Vasher just keep rolling along like Old Man River, destination unknown, and nobody can say for sure what it's all about from her perspective.

Edited February 23, 2021 by robardin

[Could Be Fire]

On 2/23/2021 at 6:58 AM, robardin said:

It's also possible that Endowment has a specific purpose in mind for only a select few of the Returned, and that other ones - maybe even the majority of them - are decoys of sorts, to provide cover for the ones with a purpose.

I think this is a really good point. Shards follow their intent and Endowment probably has a powerful drive to gift things regardless of her motivation. 

Other than Lightsong, the only other 'purpose' we know is Calmseer who was able to save the life of her daughter from the same disease she originally died from. Not 'random' but doesn't seem to be part of Endowment's major plans.

It does seem like she's trying to be a force for good even if she was kind of an a-hole in her letter. She returns people who have made a positive impact on the world and gives them a chance to heal more people after death. The whole God-King thing is interesting as well. Babies being born returned doesn't fit any other pattern (how can a newborn make a 'choice'), and I think it's implied that if God-King's offspring is always Returned? Which implies the Endowment is actually supporting the kingship. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't have Cosmere wide crazy plans but just wants to set up Nalthis up.

The 'certain things she is looking for' that Brandon says are probably conditions of selection. Being returned is basically a question of would you come back to life temporarily just to die again for a chance to heal someone. Would you give your life for someone else. So every Returned fulfills some heroic/giving/etc quality that allows Edgli to gift them a splinter but not every return is part of her long-term plans. 

[Aspiring Writer]

On 2/23/2021 at 6:58 AM, robardin said:

Random people, including infants, are Returned for no obvious reason exactly because there was no reason except to obscure ones like Lightsong

or to become god-kings and become VERY important pawns.

[+robardin he/him]

10 hours ago, Could Be Fire said:

Shards follow their intent and Endowment probably has a powerful drive to gift things regardless of her motivation.  ...

The 'certain things she is looking for' that Brandon says are probably conditions of selection. Being returned is basically a question of would you come back to life temporarily just to die again for a chance to heal someone. Would you give your life for someone else. So every Returned fulfills some heroic/giving/etc quality that allows Edgli to gift them a splinter but not every return is part of her long-term plans. 

We only know that from the two examples of Lightsong and Calmseer - and even Calmseer's Gift was not a POV or first-person POV witnessing, it was something Lightsong remembered and related, which could be interpreted as Lightsong (consciously or not) viewing Calmseer's choice as the kind of choice a Returned ought to do (and ultimately, the kind of choice he himself chose to do).

So what else do we know about the reasons the Returned give up their Divine Breath? Not much.

We can infer that all of the Returned in the Court of Gods have eventually given up their Breath, because none of them remember "Peacegiver" establishing his Treasure, and Susebron is the fifth God-King since then.

We don't know to whom or for what reason those other Returned have done so. Lightsong imagined that the weekly Parade of Petitions from Pitifully Pleading People eventually wore down Calmseer, and that that is reason all Returned eventually give up their Breath: [NOTE: separately, we have a WoB that this is not actually the case.]

Quote

There had only been one way, in her estimation, to be the goddess everyone demanded she be. And that was to give up her life for her people.

They push us into it, Lightsong thought. They craft all of this splendor and wonder, they give us whatever we desire, then they subtly poke at us. Be a god. Prophesy. Maintain our illusion for us.

Die. Die so that we can keep believing.

 

But in contrast, we have also see Returned like the Five Scholars who seem to have just gone on and on for hundreds of guilt-free years (until killed by Vasher the Scholarcide). So it's hardly some built-in drive to all Returned to be giving.

Let's try to figure out what the average "lifespan" is of a Returned (between Returning and passing on their Divine Breath).

Lightsong reflects that "there were some two dozen deities in the Court of Gods", and that Allmother was "the oldest of the gods" at Court. This may or may not include Susebron, the God King, who is annotated as having been Returned as an infant "fifty years before" the Pahn Kahl rebellion in Warbreaker. I'm thinking not, because in this context Lightsong was thinking about "deities in the Court of Gods" in the context of visiting her at her pavilion while she was receiving Petitions to pass along their Divine Breath, neither of which applies to the God King.

(Allmother's prophetic dreams, interestingly, foretold Lightsong coming to her about Lifeless - possibly one reason she hated him so much - which is why she gave him her password. Does that mean her "purpose" is fulfilled? But she didn't pass her Breath on! But, we have no other clue as to how long ago she Returned.)

Lightsong is among the youngest Gods at court as one who Returned five years earlier.

Hopefinder the Just mentions feeling "old" like it was "time for me to go" as the "fifth most aged" Returned in the Court of Gods, which in Ch. three was described as having "some two dozen deities" - and he had been a Returned who had died as a "young child" and has aged to being a teenager:

Quote

“I am,” Hopefinder said, watching Blushweaver with his too-young face. Like all younger Returned--the God King included--Hopefinder would continue to age until his body reached maturity. Then, he would stop aging--just over the brink into adulthood--until he gave up his Breath.

He acted so much like an adult. Lightsong hadn’t interacted much with children, but some of his attendants--when training--were youths. Hopefinder was not one of these. Stories said that Hopefinder, like other young returned, had matured very quickly, during his first year of life coming to think and speak as an adult while his body was still that of a young child.

...

Something is different about him, Lightsong thought. He Returned when he was a child and acted like one for a very short time. Now, he’s an adult in some ways, but a child in others.
The transformation had made Hopefinder more mature. He was also taller and more physically impressive than regular boys his age, even if he didn’t have the chiseled, majestic features of a fully grown god.

So if Hopefinder Returned as a 2-year-old and is now aged to, say, 17 years old, that means lasting fifteen years as a Returned makes him the fifth oldest (including Susebron and Allmother) of about 25 Returned, where #2 is Susebron at 50 years old and Allmother is at least somewhat older than that...

Upon visiting the Court of Gods, Vivenna noted that there were enough pavilions "for some fifty gods", while the (current) Court had only "a couple dozen - twenty-five, was it?".

Conclusions:

• There are 25 Returned in the Court of Gods during Warbreaker.
• Between 15-20 of them are between 5 and 15 years old as Returned:
  • Lightsong is in the "bottom five" as a Returned of five years ago
  • Hopefinder is "fifth oldest" at 15, maybe 20 years old, tops.
• Susebron is 50 years old, and no Returned mentions remembering the prior God-King
  • Caveat: there would only be a small number who possibly could, and maybe we don't see them "on screen".

Moreover, despite the rate of adding 15-20 Gods per 15 years - which is at least one a year - the Court is designed to hold about fifty, suggesting that as a kind of ceiling value (i.e., if they ever approached the upper limit, the priests would just build another few more pavilions, so 50-ish is a kind of high water mark).

Let's assume the head count of 25 is a relatively stable average value over time - that 20 years ago, when Hopefinder Returned, there were also about 25 Returned in the Court of Gods. That would mean 20 Returned gave up their Breath in 20 years, yeah? And if he's younger, like 15 years old, then it happened even more frequently!

So when Calmseer was referred to by Lightsong as "the last honorable Returned this city has known", I don't think that meant she was the last Returned before Lightsong to give up her Breath; he just didn't think as highly of the other Returned who had (such as one named "Brighthue" he also remembers as having done so).

That, or there is some kind of peer pressure like pattern where cohorts of Returned give up their Breaths in clusters.

Edited February 26, 2021 by robardin