Rhythm of War Full Book Reactions

[Jenet]

I think this was the most beautiful and moving book I have ever read. Why?

1. The compexity somehow manages to mirror the complexity and wonder of nature and the cosmos. Well, yeah, the cosmere, but that is for me just a way to see the cosmos with new and wondering eyes.

2. The beautiful way he describes the interactions between people, peoples, creatures and worlds. How it actually is possible to communicate across time, borders, enmity, misunderstanding, and be able to _see_ each other.

3. How he understands so many different kinds of people, how they think, how they work, and how they struggle. And how they can forgive.

4. The descriptions of the workings of a research and development organisation. So accurate.

5. The whole Navani arc. I am so impressed. I have gone through so many stages of Navani's arc myself, and I cannot fathom how he got it so accurate. I literally sobbed several times. 

6. Kaladins 4th ideal, and how he finally managed to get to it. The whole arc with the deadeyes. We chose!!! Time to see that the soldiers actually sacrifice something because they are so generous that they actually risk their lives willingly for others. That whole message was worth the whole 1000 page brick for me. Respect their choices.

7. How some people just seem to be beyond saving. Taravangian. Moash. I will accept that I cannot protect everyone. I have needed that lesson in my life as well. I can testify that it is true and valid.

8. I love the big questions: What does it mean that Taravangian takes over the shard? At least he has a snippet of good in him. What is Cultivation's big plan? How do all the cosmere world hoppers and cognitive shadows come into play in the next book? Awesome.

9. Kaladin as the Freud of Roshar, inventing psychotherapy. Love it.

10 I also love the generous time we must spend with all these problems and arcs. They are complicated. It is impossible to really feel the impact of all these complex stories without the immersion in them over time. We must feel the pain, the struggle, the frustration, the boredom, the fear and uncertainty to be able to appreciate the solutions and the victories.

11. Shallan managed to face her greatest fear. Getting a bond with a spren so early, that's really unfair. No wonder that was traumatic. One childish quarrel, and she just killed her friend. How awful and unfair. It must have been an error, it seems nobody else got a bond that young. Perhaps that was the reason she got to try again with Pattern. They gave her a new chance. But Pattern should have told her. I guess the cryptics understood that their testing of Shallan was too harsh. She was forced to find out everything by herself. Even trauma from her early childhood. We know that early trauma like that can be almost impossible to face, because they grow in proportion to your age. They felt immense then, and they feel even more immense when you grow up. Partly because they happen before you really have working memory.  Even if it would feel like a trifle if it happened to you as an adult. But as she was told: I means that she is even stronger. 

12. Adolin and his heroic fight for Maya. I love how we know what is going to happen. In these books it is not the "what" that is exiting, it is the "how" and the "why". We knew Adolin likely would revive Maya. The cool thing was how and why. And the struggle to get there.

13. Journey before destination, bastard. That sums up the whole book.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

So the Rhythms are just the way Intent manifests on Roshar? Or something along those lines.

[smokeesid]

Could someone tell me how Taravingian outwitted Hoid and his memories, were they removed by Rayse or Taravengian after he ascended? I am very eager to know considering Hoid to be the main character in the final cosmere books.

 

I have just purchased the book and it will take ages for me to reach that point. It would be good to find out and know what to expect.

Edited November 22, 2020 by smokeesid

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

After sleep and having read the whole thread I have some thoughts to add.

I read Sanderson partly because I want to see happy endings and optimism prevail. I have absolutely zero desire to read a BS book which ends badly when I KNOW it will take 3 years (at least) for the next one. And if book 5 is the one to end badly that could well be 5 years or more of wait. I have ended up having a great deal of resentment for series which do that, leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth for years, and its one of the ways to make me give up on a series. Of course, everyone is different and enjoys different things, but that is how I feel.

I have some issues with Kaladin but overall he is my favorite main character of SA. Some people were saying that he no longer has a purpose or that he is too linear. I agree he is too linear, and I'm not sure BS is completely sure what to do with him next, but Kaladin has a purpose which I don't think I have seen mentioned in this thread. Kaladin represents hope. He is the perfect hero in the eyes of the people, the perfect KR, the perfect watcher on the rim. When the civilians and the common people get in the way of a blade to protect others they don't do it for Dalinar, or Jasnah, or Shallan, or Navani. All of them are too high up in their towers, they people see them with respect and awe, but keep their distance.

Kaladin is a huge part of the reason why people have embraced the KR as heroes when 2 years ago they were seen as monsters. That may seem stupid, but as was pointed out during the Jasnah and monarchs conversation, hope is the most important thing. You give up hope and you have lost. The civilians are not the most vital part of SA since they don't have the power to do much, but they are nevertheless the reason why they all fight. Much like the Fused for the Singers.

A long time ago BS said he had a list of main characters for the main books. I think he was hesitating between Ash and Navani. Eventually he picked Ash, but in this book I think he changed his mind and swapped Eshonai/Venli for Navani. I'm okay with that, but it makes me wish we'd had Navani flashbacks so this book were fully hers. 

T is going to be a complete disaster. I know many people in this fandom liked T. I never did. When you steal something because your sick mother needs medicine your intention matters. When you murder someone because your sick mother needs medicine, your intention matters little. There comes a point where they "why" is a lot less important than the "what". It absolutely does not matter T claimed he wanted to save the world, what matters is what he did. On the little things you can take a shortcut. On the big things, you either walk journey before destination or you lose before you arrive.

On Ranking the books for me: WoR, WoK and RoW tied, and OB last.

[smokeesid]

Okay I have read the epilogue first and understood that odium destroyed Hoid's memories. I might get trolled because of this but this is a complete plot device bullshitry. If you are going to meet a grand and transcendental power then you will become completely alert and recognize all your vulnerability and shield it with all the knowledge you have. Hoid would have done that. He pondered whether Ryse has become more thoughtful then that means he had the possibility in his mind that the person after taking the shard could grow. There is no reason for this foolishness except for the plot device that the writer has put to advance the story towards a direction where it will be the most likable

 

I bet I would have more fun reading mistborn era 2(that I have already read) than reading this.

 

Unless, those memories are of little use to Hoid

Edited November 22, 2020 by smokeesid

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think he changed his mind and swapped Eshonai/Venli for Navani. I'm okay with that, but it makes me wish we'd had Navani flashbacks so this book were fully hers. 

I agree I would have loved to have Navani's flashbacks, I loved seeing her perspective for the prologue, and her memories of past events. Eshonai/Venli were ok, but I do not think we gained much in the flashbacks themselves that we did not already know.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

From the start I thought that if they lost Urithiru that was it, they would lose the war.

From a military view point you were right.

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Now I would prefer a million times over to have lost Urithiru rather than to have changed Rayse to Taravangian.

Debatable. You can negotiate reasonably with Taravangian.

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

T is one of the most disgusting, selfish and petty characters in the whole Cosmere. Why? Because:

A man quietly preparing for execution, forbidding any attempts to rescue him after having rescued his home town is selfish? That looks like an indefensible statement to me.

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

1. He pretends to be good

No, he doesn't. He pretends to be loyal, nothing else.He is about as clear to Navani and Dalinar about his attitude as a man can be,

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

2. He fools millions, including very smart and good people (main characters, not just the masses) that he has a good core. In this book the main characters knew T was a traiter from the start and Dalinar still didn't kill him, convinced there was good in T. 

Dalinar's failure.

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

3. He actually believes himself that what he is doing is good, failing to realize that journey before destination is the most important Oath of all, and not for the KR but for any sentient being

He hasn't sworn that oath. He is saving his home town and - in his belief - mankind as such.

14 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 The only way to know you are doing the right thing is when your mind and heart are aligned. T did every single action against his heart. What is worse? A person who doesn't care he is doing something wrong, or someone who knows they are doing something wrong and does it anyway? The second by far. 

And if Odium had won?

 

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

53 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

Okay I have read the epilogue first and understood that odium destroyed Hoid's memories. I might get trolled because of this but this is a complete plot device bullshitry. If you are going to meet a grand and transcendental power then you will become completely alert and recognize all your vulnerability and shield it with all the knowledge you have. Hoid would have done that. He pondered whether Ryse has become more thoughtful then that means he had the possibility in his mind that the person after taking the shard could grow. There is no reason for this foolishness except for the plot device that the writer has put to advance the story towards a direction where it will be the most likable

 

I bet I would have more fun reading mistborn era 2(that I have already read) than reading this.

 

Unless, those memories are of little use to Hoid

Read the book and you will understand 

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

Well dang. That went from 0 to 100 in about one chapter.

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

Do we have the translations for Navani's notebook yet?

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

4 hours ago, smokeesid said:

Okay I have read the epilogue first and understood that odium destroyed Hoid's memories. I might get trolled because of this but this is a complete plot device bullshitry. If you are going to meet a grand and transcendental power then you will become completely alert and recognize all your vulnerability and shield it with all the knowledge you have. Hoid would have done that. He pondered whether Ryse has become more thoughtful then that means he had the possibility in his mind that the person after taking the shard could grow. There is no reason for this foolishness except for the plot device that the writer has put to advance the story towards a direction where it will be the most likable

 

There's some significant information you're lacking. VERY significant information.

[Celairiel]

I finished the book last night, and as I told my mom, I haven't shouted at my kindle this much in years. It's probably best that I live alone. While it's definitely a bit of a "set up" book for 5, I really enjoyed it. It wasn't as much of a page-turner as the others have been for me, but there was so much in it. My only definite suggestions/wishes would have been to pace Adolin/Maya and Shallan/Pattern a bit better. There was a lot of redundant lead up to both plots and they were both ones I cared about a lot, so I wish the lead in had been more engaging. Also, the Hoid/Jasnah romance fell flat for me. 

I almost never cry while reading, but I got super close a couple of times. When Venli and Eshoni were visiting their mother together and harmonizing. Knowing that Venli has to say goodbye to Eshoni is such a painful way later, I got really teary. When Maya was brought the trial I was at first excited, because I was sure she was the key - she clearly loves and respects Adolin. But watching how they treated her and Adolin not being able to go to her made me so angry and sad. And then to end it with "We. Chose!" Oh my heart. And Raboniel and Navani. Watching and seeing what amazing friends they could have been if they weren't both devious and committed to a single winner. Navani I think was desperate enough to have really committed to a compromise, but if there positions were reversed I doubt she would have been any more honest than Raboniel. Navani watching Raboniel kill her daughter and later having to kill Raboniel was so moving.

This is the first of the books I've actually waited for. Previously I was semi-casually reading the entire Cosmere, but I wasn't diving deep. With the pandemic, I ended up diving into the fandom and lore this year to give myself a distraction and listened to Brandon's BYU lectures. So RoW and Dawnshard are the first ones I've read on release day as well as the biggest Cosmere connection books so far. So it was immensely satisifying to me having completed an entire Cosmere re-read this summer to have so much come up here. I mean, we've got new Shard names, overlap from the systems of Threnody, Taldain, Drominad, Sel, and Scadrial, Cosmere aware beings sharing their beyond-Roshar goals (to some extent) with local players, and just so much that was blatant and obvious even on a first read. I know Brandon tries to keep his series separate so you can read each one and enjoy it without missing something, but I feel like Stormlight is getting very close to the tipping point. I'm guessing the second half will be even more explicit in its connections than we see so far. 

But yes, this book had me shouting at it all week. From groans and moans of despair and sadness to shouts of glee and triumph (especially with Maya), it was a very engaging and emotional read. Loved it!

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

On 11/17/2020 at 2:40 AM, Eternal Khol said:

Omg!!! 
that’s literally what i just came to discuss!!!!

 

  Hide contents

Nightblood kills Rayse and Taravangian Ascends as Odium!!!!!!

But plottwist..... everyone else thinks Taravangian is dead and Rayse is still holding Odium

I just cant believe it.

Best surprise in the

 

On 11/17/2020 at 2:29 AM, Harkain said:

So ah, for when other people get there. Anyone else left utterly speechless by chapter 113.

I legitimately put down my phone and just repeated "what' for about 30 seconds...

IMO best surprise in the whole book ! I never saw that coming . But I love it .... Todium will be the ultimate antagonist we Deserve!!!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Phew, I finished it. What a ride. Anyway, thoughts:

I really liked it. More than I did Oathbringer, actually. Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin had really great arcs. Kaladin especially managed to do have even more story centered around his struggles with loss and depression, without the feeling that Brandon was treading on ground he covered in the past. Very well done. Shallan worked a lot better here than in OB, where her arc felt pretty unclear. Here it did pay off, we finally learned of her (hopefully final) suppressed murder, and the Ghostbloods/Kalak-plot was more interesting than her infilitrating the Cult of Pleasures and trekking through the CR was in OB (also we finally got a good chunk of Mraize-time, which was great). Adolin had an arc that really felt like his own, which was nice, and I loved how he helped Shallan, and how dedicated he was toward the goal of convincing the Honorspren. 

Navanis arc was cool as well, even though I feel Brandon could have used some of her pages elsewhere. Might just be that I'm not overly interested in the making of fabrials, but it got a bit much at times. I'm way more hyped about the history/lore/culture-aspect of Stormlight (and the Cosmere in general) than I am about the magic. I honestly didnt grasp all the rhythm-stuff 100%, but thats fine. Her payoff was good though, and I enjoyed her showdown with Moash. Dalinars arc was smaller, but Im really glad we got to see Ishar, who seems to be the most insane out of all the Heralds, despite what Ash or Nale wants to claim. Found it fun that Stormfather got a bit of a character arc as well. 

I also really liked a lot of the new characters. Raboniel was a really interesting antagonist, even though she lived absurdly long despite being stabbed and basically cut into pieces by Moash. Lezian was also really cool, and his powers and his Passion made for a really entertaining villain, who I'd honestly would have liked to see in Book 5 as well. This El guy seems legit scary though, and he was apparently the old Vyre, so hopefully he can fill the "evil maniac-void" for the finale of the first batch of books. I also liked Zu the Stoneward, and the Mink. Hopefully they will both get more to do in future books. 

One negative I have is the flashbacks. They were fine, but a lot of them felt like they were in the book because Stormlight-books always have flashbacks, and not because they were really necessary.They simply felt more... tacked on, than any of the others. Venlis storyline also felt like one of the more forgettable ones, in that she didnt really have the same powerful development that Kaladin or Shallan had. 

And then, finally, the twists. I knew Teft was a goner as soon as he ran into Moash, and it was a shame, since he was awesome. Kalak being Restares really shook me, and I hope Brandon explains why he decided to hijack the most stupid of the Secret Societites and lead them to... whatever they were trying to do after WoR. And then, of course, Rayse being killed and replaced by Taravangian. That was brilliant, and something that I honestly didnt see coming until the moment Rayse got sucked into Nightblood. I am extremely excited to see exactly what Taravangians gameplan will be, and what he will try to accomplish. And I wonder how Moash, El, Nale and the Singers will factor into this. Will they keep on fighting for Mr T, or will they do something else?

Anyway, great book.

 

[Solant he/him]

Oh, my heart.

I love Teft for staying behind with kal. What a friend. That was heartbreaking to read.

Adolin forcing Kal to to out drinking is still one of my favorite scenes in the book.

Navani does good work, but MVP goes to Dabbid and Maya. Those dawgs are storming heroes. 

Dalinar visiting Ishar, Mr God King himself didn't strike me as his most brilliant idea as soon as he brought it up. 

Something about Hoid and Jasnah feels disingenuous coming from him.

Did I read that right? Was cultivation previously a dragon?

 

[Eternal Khol he/him]

4 minutes ago, Solant said:

Did I read that right? Was cultivation previously a dragon?

yes!
I completely missed that the first time and just figured it out from the coppermind lol

 

heres a WoB

asmodeus

In Words of Radiance, Hoid says that there's only one person as old as him around, and seems to be referring to Cultivation's vessel. In Rhythm of War, he mentions there's a dragon on Roshar.

Are these two individuals the same, or are they separate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. These two are the same.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

Edited November 22, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[kari-no-sugata]

I've not posted in ages but I independently wrote up some thoughts on the book for a friend before reading any other spoilers or reviews. I figured it might be interesting for others to read them:

One of my problems with OB is that the book ended with a major character (Shallan) in a very vague state, making it very difficult to imagine how she could behave and come across in future. With RoW we instead end up with the plot in a vague state but I think that’s less of a problem - uncertainty in the plot gives you more to speculate about. But is there too much uncertainty? Maybe I’ll need to re-read a bunch of chapters a few times to really try to get a better sense of the situation.

If I’d vaguely summarise my thoughts on the books so far it would be something like this:
tWoK: highly entertaining and almost flawless - there’s almost nothing I think needs changing/improving.
WoR: extremely entertaining but has a couple of minor flaws.
OB: mostly rather average with a couple of good scenes, multiple major and minor flaws. Left me depressed about the direction of the series.
RoW: entertaining but the flaws I see really annoy me, even if they are relatively small. The flaws here leave me quite frustrated as I don’t think it was that hard to fix them.

So what are the major flaws I see in RoW: the main one is that the Shallan and Adolin arcs felt quite rushed - they needed more time / chapters. Just 6 chapters for 2 characters to get their main plot sequence and resolution is too little. They should have had perhaps 2 chapters in Part 3 to make their situation a bit clearer sooner (there’s no real justification to leave them out of Part 3) and a few more in Part 4 to really hammer home the seriousness of the situation.

While we really feel the depths of the darkness of Shallan’s side, it is somewhat undermined by the fact that her fear of betrayal (of people leaving her) was never really explained clearly. A simple solution for this would have been to make it clear that after young Shallan said those hurtful words to her spren, Testament simply vanished without Shallan understanding why and so Shallan feels that Testament left her because she was “bad” when instead it was due to Nahel bond mechanics. (Side note: present day Shallan should warn the spren not to bond children) We can infer this but we don’t really feel it. In short, it undermines Shallan’s plot arc that we have to guess why she was feeling the way she did in the first place - her central problem in the book is set on shaky ground.

The problems with Adolin’s arc are somewhat different but his situation feels a bit too light. While it’s nice to have more positive viewpoints as a contrast, it would have been better to have Adolin’s situation feel more serious and for him to feel more desperate. Kelek and some of the honorspren felt like ‘cheap’ antagonists. This weakens the payoff. It also feels like a shame that Dalinar never found out what was going on with Adolin.

There’s also a couple of minor flaws: Kaladin’s start in the book was a bit too repetitive and boring - I didn’t even want to read him. The overall ending could have done with a bit more follow-up - you feel a little bit cheated and left hanging. Soulcasting is still underdeveloped or explained. The Stormfather feels a bit too much of a gag character at times - alternating between going “that’s impossible!” to “I can’t do that” or “I can’t help you” a bit too much. In Part 1 Jasnah says she plans to make an announcement to free the slaves but there’s no follow-up, nor any follow-up to the slaves Shallan got in RoW (missed opportunity). At times it feels a bit too much like “The Mental Illness Archive” rather than “The Stormlight Archive”. Zahel vanishes after Part 1.

I don’t want to repeat it too much but I think a flaw that I started to see in OB has been carried over - characters rarely think about other characters unless they have an overlapping character arc. But that’s not how real people see things. To give a simple example, Shallan is now Dalinar’s daughter-in-law and sort-of Navani’s daughter-in-law but they never really give any thought about her. It just doesn’t feel natural. On a related note, chapter 12 was great but needed more.

That above complaints out of the way, there’s a lot to celebrate: Adolin finally gets a proper in-depth stand-alone character arc - a big story where it centers on him and not his relationship with others. While it didn’t quite feel right that Shallan wasn’t helping him more, the more she helped him the more that would have undermined his character. Essentially we needed to see that both were capable in their own way, even if Adolin needed some luck. I hope to see Shallan and Adolin become a real power couple in future. It also appears that my dream of seeing Shallan and Adolin traipse around the Cosmere having fun is going to happen.

The development between Adolin and Maya was very nice - Maya has a real “stand up and cheer” moment. It was obviously going to have some payoff and while it was predictable it was the good kind of predictable. Like when you get exactly the best possible presents that you could have hoped for at Christmas. Adolin wasn’t explicitly trying to revive Maya really, he just wanted to treat her well. Every time another spren disparaged his efforts it just made you want to see him succeed even more. But we didn’t get just that, we got some crucial information - that the spren who “died” in the Recreance were not victims. This could be taken as lacking in realism but them becoming deadeyes wasn’t what they expected though and had never been seen before, so perhaps that’s why they never warned anyone.

So where does Adolin go from here? While he doesn’t seem like a perfect fit for the Edgedancers, he’s certainly not bad. It’s not like there’s only one type of Edgedancer - while some were pure healers, others did fight. We’ve not seen that many fighters just yet. I don’t see any fundamental barriers to him becoming an Edgedancer. That being said, I did start to wonder - might we see Adolin bond spren from two different orders? Basically, he revevies Maya completely but before that happens he also bonds with another spren.

Who could that be? How about Notum? I mean, the guy totally stood up for Adolin in the trial and helped put a completely different dimension on the whole situation. Can you imagine Notum wanting to bond someone else? Not really. You can also imagine Notum wanting to help someone who might figure out a way to help revive his father. Adolin might not be the most conventional Windrunner but let’s not forget that both Shallan and Dalinar have seen him as a potential Windrunner - that could be considered foreshadowing. In addition, perhaps the energy gained from bonding one spren would help Adolin “jump start” Maya’s revival. After all, the power-up energy for Windrunners is special. Another possibility of course is that Maya will be fully revived by Dalinar but I feel it would be better for Adolin to achieve it on his own merit.

It will also be interesting to see where the relationship between Adolin and Dalinar goes from here. I can imagine the Stormfather being rather amazed at the possibility that the deadeye spren could be revived. That would also make a huge difference to the war if 100s or 1000s of dead spren could rejoin the battle. You would expect Dalinar in turn to be delighted - Adolin over delivered. I’d also hope that Adolin will gain some confidence from this. Maybe Dalinar will finally see that the best thing for Adolin is to let him be himself.

On to Shallan: We got a lot of developments that I hoped to see and some that I never expected. I had hoped for a bit more progress though. Still that “time to soar” line at the end is very promising - after effectively 2 whole books of Shallan being somewhat morose and inwards looking, it would be nice to see the kick-ass Shallan return and take center stage in her narrative. I didn’t pay to see two supporting acts (Veil and Radiant), I paid to see Shallan and we got precious little good quality Shallan time. This was very frustrating and the last thing I wanted. Hopefully we can get a decent amount in book 5 and finally have a truly epic scene from her to make up for all this.

Her final state is a bit unclear. Did she level up or not? It would feel kinda weird if she didn’t after admitting such a major thing about herself. I’m not sure why it would take (say) integrating Radiant for her to level up unless that comes with some even further backstory for her to admit to. (Talking of her backstory, it seems likely to involve the Ghostbloods somehow). That being said, it doesn’t matter much for this book since it’s not like she needed to do anything after admitting to the truth regarding Testament. Hopefully we can see some new Lightweaver powers in book 5 as there was nothing new in book 4 at all. It would also be nice to get a better idea of how Lightweavers level up normally since Shallan is such a special case.

One curious development about Shallan is that she will be able to use two Shardblades. But since she is not combat specialised that’s not very useful to her at all. That being said, if you’re going to “dual wield”, using a sword+shield combo is going to be much more useful than two swords, generally. I could also imagine this being particularly useful for Shallan - having much improved defence when she’s not especially experienced in combat would be very useful for her. I suspect the real benefit for Shallan is having a double-strength Nahel bond.

I’m not sure if Shallan has finally gotten the message that it’s okay to love herself. I guess she has but again it’s unclear. It has been her most central issue in the general sense - ie ignoring any specific traumas in her past. I can imagine that Shallan could feel like she has to leave Adolin if she has gotten into the state where she is terrified about others leaving her and I might have even speculated on this. Shallan has a lot of imagination and hates conflict (between people she cares about) and I could see her seeking out a place where she doesn’t have to be so afraid. However, it’s not clear how Shallan got in such a state in the first place. Perhaps she started relying upon Veil and Radiant too much when she wanted to hide so instead of dealing with issues properly she hid and the pain/fear started building up. After all, the more that Shallan hides away the more that Formless develops.

It’s also nice to finally get some progress on the Ghostbloods. It’s way overdue. I was very happy to see Shallan stick it to Mraize at the end. I was also amused to see Shallan telling Mraize to vacate Urithiru or else and the “of course you realise this means war” aspect since these are things I had thought about and speculated on before. Essentially, as soon as Shallan did tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods she would have to take this approach. It’s a shame we didn’t get a scene of Shallan saying this and asking Adolin for help. Shallan’s plot for book 5 seems pretty much set - find the gem with the Unmade and release it while beating the Ghostbloods to it. I’m not sure if Adolin will be a tag-along or doing something else. I wonder who Shallan will use that knife on?

It looks like there’s no real reason for Ialai to have trusted Shallan at the start. It’s still unclear why that happened, which is a bit annoying. It also looks like her little notebook wasn’t especially plot relevant and more about seeding the future possibility that Shallan will be going to other planets. I’d like to see Shallan go to Nalthis and be like “A language that is art? Challenge accepted” - would also be a nice place to go for a “honeymoon” with Adolin. Longer term might we see Shallan going to the Ghostbloods homeworld to finish them off for good? Seems quite likely at this stage, though obviously something for the 2nd half of the series.

On a minor note, I wonder if we’ll see any more contact between Shallan and Sja-anat. I doubt Shallan will be unhappy that the Ghostbloods didn’t get a spren. Will Shallan tell Sja-anat about her plans?

Kaladin was a lot better overall, apart from the first couple of chapters in Part 1. Essentially, until Dalinar removed him from combat I could barely stand to even read his chapters. From then on he was a lot more interesting. In a way, his arc felt closer to tWoK - dark and oppressive, but with real progress and a sense of movement, though with some obvious stumbles and mistakes along the way, with a final epic ending. However, the whole SFX extravaganza when Kaladin powers-up and how everyone seems to worship him feels a bit overdone. It’s wearing a bit thin for me - I suspect this is something that will work well for some but not for others.

To me, Kaladin is sort of the “classic” or “traditional” hero in the sense that his parts are more action orientated and more about him climbing up from the bottom. I very much felt this in tWoK. This is not to belittle him at all. What was great about Kaladin in tWoK was how well this character type was done - better than anything I’ve ever seen, by a mile. I also liked how his flaws were almost his undoing in WoR - very much like a classical Greek hero. However, his character/plot didn’t work as well in OB and I really couldn't stand him at the start of Part 1 of RoW but after again being knocked down to the bottom he rises again. And it was great and rather classic in many ways.

I like that it’s clear that Kaladin still has a lot of mental healing left to do. It also makes sense for him to need a sort of veterans association and forum to discuss their traumas. Szeth is perhaps the person who needs something like that the most, except it looks like he’s going to be going on his little quest with Kaladin. Maybe discussing his traumas with Kaladin will help Szeth, and perhaps Kaladin too. I’m not expecting Kaladin to reach 5th level in book 5, particularly since his Chosen One status seems to have been undercut.

Navani was a lot more interesting overall and despite some of my fears it worked out quite well. It was interesting to see all sorts of little nods to real science. That being said, it took a long time for her story to really get going and earlier on she felt more like a “fly on the wall”. I’m not that happy with her becoming the second Bondsmith (seems a bit too convenient for Dalinar) but it’s not the end of the world. Was nice to finally have Urithiru fully up and running at last and to have all that background detail.

Navani’s relationship with Raboniel was interesting. She’s sort-of the Fused equivalent of Jasnah in that she’s very smart, focused, a realist, willing to use underhand methods etc. I’m not suggesting that Navani saw Raboniel that way, just that’s the sort of person she seems to be. Navani finally got some validation and respect but she had to go through a lot of failure to get there. Raboniel initially comes across as straight from the “mad scientist” trope but I was glad she wasn’t developed that way and she felt very real and relatable in the end. Very dangerous still though.

I’ve struggled to like Dalinar since tWoK. He really depends far too much on using force of personality to get his way and gets little pushback. In tWoK he had Adolin to slap some sense into him and give him pushback but since then he’s largely been charging ahead and making mistakes and then complaining about it. It’s not like I found Dalinar annoying overall here and he does seem to be getting better and has belatedly realised he wasn’t as good a father as he thought he was but he does come across as rather entitled when he complains about not understanding his powers and then not doing all that much about it.

Lift didn’t get much in the way of development or page time. In the original plan she was going to go on the Shadesmar trip. I can understand why this wasn’t done in the end - she is definitely too young and unpredictable for a diplomatic trip. Still, I would have liked to see her and Shallan bouncing off each other - something I’ve been waiting for for a long time. Well, given that she now has a grudge against Mraize and Shallan is openly gunning for Mraize, she’d likely volunteer to go with Shallan in book 5 if it means there’s a chance she can get some revenge.

Jasnah got some development, though I wasn’t surprised by any of it. This isn’t to say that her chapters weren’t interesting or involving. However, I don’t think there was much pay-off for her chapters - they’re more like isolated incidents rather than some kind of character arc. Her relationship with Wit made a lot of sense to me but I was surprised that she wasn’t more paranoid about his intentions. I also wonder if we’ll see any obvious changes in Wit going forwards given what happened in the end.

Venli was interesting but she felt a bit disconnected to the main plots. Her personal arc only slightly overlapped with the other characters - it felt like more could have been done here. With the way she ended I’m not sure how much presence she’ll have in book 5 either. Maybe she’ll have much more of a presence in the back 5 books though. That being said, I liked her flashbacks with Eshonai - felt very nostalgic somehow.

Szeth had a muted role. He’s certainly dialling the crazy up to 10 (Ishar is 11). It doesn’t seem that surprising that he’s in such a bad place mentally. I don’t expect him to survive Book 5 but what will happen to Nightblood?

Overall thoughts: RoW definitely worked for me better than OB, at least so far. One of the “problems” I had with OB is that I wasn’t that satisfied overall and as I tried re-reading the book more to try to make sense of it my feeling of satisfaction got worse rather than better. So perhaps my evaluation will change over time with RoW too, but I’m not sure how much I’ll be thinking about it. After OB I felt rather burned so stopped thinking about the series much. While RoW has allayed most of my fears, I still don’t feel that excited about the series. The spark has gone, as it were.

That being said, I nearly cried more than once during RoW and my feelings were definitely running strong at certain points. The book definitely conveyed strong emotions and feelings. Unfortunately, one of them was a strong sense of “so near but yet so far” - Shallan and Adolin’s arcs in Part 4 could have been truly awesome with just a bit more work and it feels really obvious that they were rushed and came up short.

WoR also had flaws but they were more subtle. In terms of pure entertainment I think I would have enjoyed RoW about as much as tWoK if just the bigger flaws had been fixed. So overall, I can’t really say that the series is getting better.
 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

At the release of OB I gave out character awards for every part of the book. That was a bit exhausting, but I figured I´ll do a big one here, for the entire book. Here goes, Toasters Character Awards for Rhythm of War:

*MVP Award: Adolin, for being Adolin. I should probably give this to Navani, Venli or Kaladin, but Adolins stuff, be it the trial, the swordfight, or him trying to help Shallan, was stuff that he wasn't exactly forced into (Kaladin and Navani basically had to act given their situation) and they were super-tough things to do. He was simply the most engaging character for me in the book. 

*Best Villain Award: Has to go to Mr T, right? With that ending and all. Shout out to Moash though. You can say whatever you want about the guy, but he does get stuff done.

*Most Incredible Achievment Award: Mraize, for pulling off the feat of appearing in all 5 parts of the same book, which for the record is more than he had in books 2 and 3 combined. Well done, Mraize!

*Biggest Screw-up Award: Rayse, for managing to get himself whacked by an old man despite having the powers of a god. Also, he basically threw away his advantages in the war, couldn't find Hoid, and made a crappy deal out of desperation. Great job, Rayse.

*Best New Character Award: While not new in the sense that we never heard of him before RoW, Ishar still made an intriguing debut, when he in short order claimed to be Honors Champion, bested four Windrunners, set up the major plot of Book 5, showed off amazing Bondsmith-skills, and made spren manifest with their CR-shape in the physical realm just so he could murder them. All this in... one chapter, I think. 

*Best Moment Award: Eshonai & The Stormfather (sounds like a band name). Eshonais final scene before passing into the Beyond was genuinely beautiful. 

*Most Wasted Character Award: Adolins swords. They got a whole monologue to build them up, and then they wound up not being used (well, except for one of them). And yes, before you ask, these are characters. They are spren. Every object is a spren. 

*Most Emotional Death Award: Meridas Amaram. Teft. I'm glad he got to go out with hope, and that he will have a place in the Hall of Dead Radiants. RIP. 

*Character-Worthy-of-Mention-who-didn't-get-an-award-Award: Goes to Pattern, because he is ALWAYS worthy of mention. 

[ftl]

11 hours ago, smokeesid said:

Okay I have read the epilogue first and understood that odium destroyed Hoid's memories. I might get trolled because of this but this is a complete plot device bullshitry. If you are going to meet a grand and transcendental power then you will become completely alert and recognize all your vulnerability and shield it with all the knowledge you have. Hoid would have done that. He pondered whether Ryse has become more thoughtful then that means he had the possibility in his mind that the person after taking the shard could grow. There is no reason for this foolishness except for the plot device that the writer has put to advance the story towards a direction where it will be the most likable

 

I bet I would have more fun reading mistborn era 2(that I have already read) than reading this.

 

Unless, those memories are of little use to Hoid

Hehe, if you've just read that epigraph and not things leading up to it, there's a huge bit of info you're missing that turns that scene on its head, and to me explains why Hoid got messed up there.

...maybe. Because, well, there's two readings of that scene.

One is the plain one - Hoid misjudged Odium (because of that bit of info that I think you're missing) and got beat up because of it. Lost the memory of V1 of the conversation, some Breaths, plus unspecified other memories.

But then there's the other reading of the scene. Where he first introduces the scene with a reading of how you can trick people into thinking you lived a thousand lives that you haven't. And then the stuff with the coin tricks. Then V1 and V2 of the conversation. ...but then Hoid has half a dozen different indicators that something is wrong. His coins are in the wrong place. Design and the windspren are not where he remembers. His pitch is off. ...and yet he still ends the chapter saying that yes, that went exactly as he imagined it. Which, put together, could mean that the fake vulnerability was deliberate. Maybe Hoid tricked Odium, here.

 

So, did he outthink Odium and feed him some false info? Or did he get beat? We'll have to RAFO.

[Govir]

20 hours ago, Starla said:

How did Moash end up blind at the end? He seemed to run out of the tower with no problem, then he lands in a snow bank and realizes he is blind. I went back and read it three times and can’t figure out what happened. Maybe the towerlight did something to him?

My understanding of this is that he fell and was broken / dying. Then some Fused / Singers found him and gave him Stormlight that healed him, except for his eyes for some reason.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I've not posted in ages but I independently wrote up some thoughts on the book for a friend before reading any other spoilers or reviews. I figured it might be interesting for others to read them:

One of my problems with OB is that the book ended with a major character (Shallan) in a very vague state, making it very difficult to imagine how she could behave and come across in future. With RoW we instead end up with the plot in a vague state but I think that’s less of a problem - uncertainty in the plot gives you more to speculate about. But is there too much uncertainty? Maybe I’ll need to re-read a bunch of chapters a few times to really try to get a better sense of the situation.

If I’d vaguely summarise my thoughts on the books so far it would be something like this:
tWoK: highly entertaining and almost flawless - there’s almost nothing I think needs changing/improving.
WoR: extremely entertaining but has a couple of minor flaws.
OB: mostly rather average with a couple of good scenes, multiple major and minor flaws. Left me depressed about the direction of the series.
RoW: entertaining but the flaws I see really annoy me, even if they are relatively small. The flaws here leave me quite frustrated as I don’t think it was that hard to fix them.

So what are the major flaws I see in RoW: the main one is that the Shallan and Adolin arcs felt quite rushed - they needed more time / chapters. Just 6 chapters for 2 characters to get their main plot sequence and resolution is too little. They should have had perhaps 2 chapters in Part 3 to make their situation a bit clearer sooner (there’s no real justification to leave them out of Part 3) and a few more in Part 4 to really hammer home the seriousness of the situation.

While we really feel the depths of the darkness of Shallan’s side, it is somewhat undermined by the fact that her fear of betrayal (of people leaving her) was never really explained clearly. A simple solution for this would have been to make it clear that after young Shallan said those hurtful words to her spren, Testament simply vanished without Shallan understanding why and so Shallan feels that Testament left her because she was “bad” when instead it was due to Nahel bond mechanics. (Side note: present day Shallan should warn the spren not to bond children) We can infer this but we don’t really feel it. In short, it undermines Shallan’s plot arc that we have to guess why she was feeling the way she did in the first place - her central problem in the book is set on shaky ground.

The problems with Adolin’s arc are somewhat different but his situation feels a bit too light. While it’s nice to have more positive viewpoints as a contrast, it would have been better to have Adolin’s situation feel more serious and for him to feel more desperate. Kelek and some of the honorspren felt like ‘cheap’ antagonists. This weakens the payoff. It also feels like a shame that Dalinar never found out what was going on with Adolin.

There’s also a couple of minor flaws: Kaladin’s start in the book was a bit too repetitive and boring - I didn’t even want to read him. The overall ending could have done with a bit more follow-up - you feel a little bit cheated and left hanging. Soulcasting is still underdeveloped or explained. The Stormfather feels a bit too much of a gag character at times - alternating between going “that’s impossible!” to “I can’t do that” or “I can’t help you” a bit too much. In Part 1 Jasnah says she plans to make an announcement to free the slaves but there’s no follow-up, nor any follow-up to the slaves Shallan got in RoW (missed opportunity). At times it feels a bit too much like “The Mental Illness Archive” rather than “The Stormlight Archive”. Zahel vanishes after Part 1.

I don’t want to repeat it too much but I think a flaw that I started to see in OB has been carried over - characters rarely think about other characters unless they have an overlapping character arc. But that’s not how real people see things. To give a simple example, Shallan is now Dalinar’s daughter-in-law and sort-of Navani’s daughter-in-law but they never really give any thought about her. It just doesn’t feel natural. On a related note, chapter 12 was great but needed more.

That above complaints out of the way, there’s a lot to celebrate: Adolin finally gets a proper in-depth stand-alone character arc - a big story where it centers on him and not his relationship with others. While it didn’t quite feel right that Shallan wasn’t helping him more, the more she helped him the more that would have undermined his character. Essentially we needed to see that both were capable in their own way, even if Adolin needed some luck. I hope to see Shallan and Adolin become a real power couple in future. It also appears that my dream of seeing Shallan and Adolin traipse around the Cosmere having fun is going to happen.

The development between Adolin and Maya was very nice - Maya has a real “stand up and cheer” moment. It was obviously going to have some payoff and while it was predictable it was the good kind of predictable. Like when you get exactly the best possible presents that you could have hoped for at Christmas. Adolin wasn’t explicitly trying to revive Maya really, he just wanted to treat her well. Every time another spren disparaged his efforts it just made you want to see him succeed even more. But we didn’t get just that, we got some crucial information - that the spren who “died” in the Recreance were not victims. This could be taken as lacking in realism but them becoming deadeyes wasn’t what they expected though and had never been seen before, so perhaps that’s why they never warned anyone.

So where does Adolin go from here? While he doesn’t seem like a perfect fit for the Edgedancers, he’s certainly not bad. It’s not like there’s only one type of Edgedancer - while some were pure healers, others did fight. We’ve not seen that many fighters just yet. I don’t see any fundamental barriers to him becoming an Edgedancer. That being said, I did start to wonder - might we see Adolin bond spren from two different orders? Basically, he revevies Maya completely but before that happens he also bonds with another spren.

Who could that be? How about Notum? I mean, the guy totally stood up for Adolin in the trial and helped put a completely different dimension on the whole situation. Can you imagine Notum wanting to bond someone else? Not really. You can also imagine Notum wanting to help someone who might figure out a way to help revive his father. Adolin might not be the most conventional Windrunner but let’s not forget that both Shallan and Dalinar have seen him as a potential Windrunner - that could be considered foreshadowing. In addition, perhaps the energy gained from bonding one spren would help Adolin “jump start” Maya’s revival. After all, the power-up energy for Windrunners is special. Another possibility of course is that Maya will be fully revived by Dalinar but I feel it would be better for Adolin to achieve it on his own merit.

It will also be interesting to see where the relationship between Adolin and Dalinar goes from here. I can imagine the Stormfather being rather amazed at the possibility that the deadeye spren could be revived. That would also make a huge difference to the war if 100s or 1000s of dead spren could rejoin the battle. You would expect Dalinar in turn to be delighted - Adolin over delivered. I’d also hope that Adolin will gain some confidence from this. Maybe Dalinar will finally see that the best thing for Adolin is to let him be himself.

On to Shallan: We got a lot of developments that I hoped to see and some that I never expected. I had hoped for a bit more progress though. Still that “time to soar” line at the end is very promising - after effectively 2 whole books of Shallan being somewhat morose and inwards looking, it would be nice to see the kick-ass Shallan return and take center stage in her narrative. I didn’t pay to see two supporting acts (Veil and Radiant), I paid to see Shallan and we got precious little good quality Shallan time. This was very frustrating and the last thing I wanted. Hopefully we can get a decent amount in book 5 and finally have a truly epic scene from her to make up for all this.

Her final state is a bit unclear. Did she level up or not? It would feel kinda weird if she didn’t after admitting such a major thing about herself. I’m not sure why it would take (say) integrating Radiant for her to level up unless that comes with some even further backstory for her to admit to. (Talking of her backstory, it seems likely to involve the Ghostbloods somehow). That being said, it doesn’t matter much for this book since it’s not like she needed to do anything after admitting to the truth regarding Testament. Hopefully we can see some new Lightweaver powers in book 5 as there was nothing new in book 4 at all. It would also be nice to get a better idea of how Lightweavers level up normally since Shallan is such a special case.

One curious development about Shallan is that she will be able to use two Shardblades. But since she is not combat specialised that’s not very useful to her at all. That being said, if you’re going to “dual wield”, using a sword+shield combo is going to be much more useful than two swords, generally. I could also imagine this being particularly useful for Shallan - having much improved defence when she’s not especially experienced in combat would be very useful for her. I suspect the real benefit for Shallan is having a double-strength Nahel bond.

I’m not sure if Shallan has finally gotten the message that it’s okay to love herself. I guess she has but again it’s unclear. It has been her most central issue in the general sense - ie ignoring any specific traumas in her past. I can imagine that Shallan could feel like she has to leave Adolin if she has gotten into the state where she is terrified about others leaving her and I might have even speculated on this. Shallan has a lot of imagination and hates conflict (between people she cares about) and I could see her seeking out a place where she doesn’t have to be so afraid. However, it’s not clear how Shallan got in such a state in the first place. Perhaps she started relying upon Veil and Radiant too much when she wanted to hide so instead of dealing with issues properly she hid and the pain/fear started building up. After all, the more that Shallan hides away the more that Formless develops.

It’s also nice to finally get some progress on the Ghostbloods. It’s way overdue. I was very happy to see Shallan stick it to Mraize at the end. I was also amused to see Shallan telling Mraize to vacate Urithiru or else and the “of course you realise this means war” aspect since these are things I had thought about and speculated on before. Essentially, as soon as Shallan did tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods she would have to take this approach. It’s a shame we didn’t get a scene of Shallan saying this and asking Adolin for help. Shallan’s plot for book 5 seems pretty much set - find the gem with the Unmade and release it while beating the Ghostbloods to it. I’m not sure if Adolin will be a tag-along or doing something else. I wonder who Shallan will use that knife on?

It looks like there’s no real reason for Ialai to have trusted Shallan at the start. It’s still unclear why that happened, which is a bit annoying. It also looks like her little notebook wasn’t especially plot relevant and more about seeding the future possibility that Shallan will be going to other planets. I’d like to see Shallan go to Nalthis and be like “A language that is art? Challenge accepted” - would also be a nice place to go for a “honeymoon” with Adolin. Longer term might we see Shallan going to the Ghostbloods homeworld to finish them off for good? Seems quite likely at this stage, though obviously something for the 2nd half of the series.

On a minor note, I wonder if we’ll see any more contact between Shallan and Sja-anat. I doubt Shallan will be unhappy that the Ghostbloods didn’t get a spren. Will Shallan tell Sja-anat about her plans?

Kaladin was a lot better overall, apart from the first couple of chapters in Part 1. Essentially, until Dalinar removed him from combat I could barely stand to even read his chapters. From then on he was a lot more interesting. In a way, his arc felt closer to tWoK - dark and oppressive, but with real progress and a sense of movement, though with some obvious stumbles and mistakes along the way, with a final epic ending. However, the whole SFX extravaganza when Kaladin powers-up and how everyone seems to worship him feels a bit overdone. It’s wearing a bit thin for me - I suspect this is something that will work well for some but not for others.

To me, Kaladin is sort of the “classic” or “traditional” hero in the sense that his parts are more action orientated and more about him climbing up from the bottom. I very much felt this in tWoK. This is not to belittle him at all. What was great about Kaladin in tWoK was how well this character type was done - better than anything I’ve ever seen, by a mile. I also liked how his flaws were almost his undoing in WoR - very much like a classical Greek hero. However, his character/plot didn’t work as well in OB and I really couldn't stand him at the start of Part 1 of RoW but after again being knocked down to the bottom he rises again. And it was great and rather classic in many ways.

I like that it’s clear that Kaladin still has a lot of mental healing left to do. It also makes sense for him to need a sort of veterans association and forum to discuss their traumas. Szeth is perhaps the person who needs something like that the most, except it looks like he’s going to be going on his little quest with Kaladin. Maybe discussing his traumas with Kaladin will help Szeth, and perhaps Kaladin too. I’m not expecting Kaladin to reach 5th level in book 5, particularly since his Chosen One status seems to have been undercut.

Navani was a lot more interesting overall and despite some of my fears it worked out quite well. It was interesting to see all sorts of little nods to real science. That being said, it took a long time for her story to really get going and earlier on she felt more like a “fly on the wall”. I’m not that happy with her becoming the second Bondsmith (seems a bit too convenient for Dalinar) but it’s not the end of the world. Was nice to finally have Urithiru fully up and running at last and to have all that background detail.

Navani’s relationship with Raboniel was interesting. She’s sort-of the Fused equivalent of Jasnah in that she’s very smart, focused, a realist, willing to use underhand methods etc. I’m not suggesting that Navani saw Raboniel that way, just that’s the sort of person she seems to be. Navani finally got some validation and respect but she had to go through a lot of failure to get there. Raboniel initially comes across as straight from the “mad scientist” trope but I was glad she wasn’t developed that way and she felt very real and relatable in the end. Very dangerous still though.

I’ve struggled to like Dalinar since tWoK. He really depends far too much on using force of personality to get his way and gets little pushback. In tWoK he had Adolin to slap some sense into him and give him pushback but since then he’s largely been charging ahead and making mistakes and then complaining about it. It’s not like I found Dalinar annoying overall here and he does seem to be getting better and has belatedly realised he wasn’t as good a father as he thought he was but he does come across as rather entitled when he complains about not understanding his powers and then not doing all that much about it.

Lift didn’t get much in the way of development or page time. In the original plan she was going to go on the Shadesmar trip. I can understand why this wasn’t done in the end - she is definitely too young and unpredictable for a diplomatic trip. Still, I would have liked to see her and Shallan bouncing off each other - something I’ve been waiting for for a long time. Well, given that she now has a grudge against Mraize and Shallan is openly gunning for Mraize, she’d likely volunteer to go with Shallan in book 5 if it means there’s a chance she can get some revenge.

Jasnah got some development, though I wasn’t surprised by any of it. This isn’t to say that her chapters weren’t interesting or involving. However, I don’t think there was much pay-off for her chapters - they’re more like isolated incidents rather than some kind of character arc. Her relationship with Wit made a lot of sense to me but I was surprised that she wasn’t more paranoid about his intentions. I also wonder if we’ll see any obvious changes in Wit going forwards given what happened in the end.

Venli was interesting but she felt a bit disconnected to the main plots. Her personal arc only slightly overlapped with the other characters - it felt like more could have been done here. With the way she ended I’m not sure how much presence she’ll have in book 5 either. Maybe she’ll have much more of a presence in the back 5 books though. That being said, I liked her flashbacks with Eshonai - felt very nostalgic somehow.

Szeth had a muted role. He’s certainly dialling the crazy up to 10 (Ishar is 11). It doesn’t seem that surprising that he’s in such a bad place mentally. I don’t expect him to survive Book 5 but what will happen to Nightblood?

Overall thoughts: RoW definitely worked for me better than OB, at least so far. One of the “problems” I had with OB is that I wasn’t that satisfied overall and as I tried re-reading the book more to try to make sense of it my feeling of satisfaction got worse rather than better. So perhaps my evaluation will change over time with RoW too, but I’m not sure how much I’ll be thinking about it. After OB I felt rather burned so stopped thinking about the series much. While RoW has allayed most of my fears, I still don’t feel that excited about the series. The spark has gone, as it were.

That being said, I nearly cried more than once during RoW and my feelings were definitely running strong at certain points. The book definitely conveyed strong emotions and feelings. Unfortunately, one of them was a strong sense of “so near but yet so far” - Shallan and Adolin’s arcs in Part 4 could have been truly awesome with just a bit more work and it feels really obvious that they were rushed and came up short.

WoR also had flaws but they were more subtle. In terms of pure entertainment I think I would have enjoyed RoW about as much as tWoK if just the bigger flaws had been fixed. So overall, I can’t really say that the series is getting better.
 

While I wouldn’t be surprised if Shallan does visit Scadrial at some point, I doubt she’ll be able to completely eradicate the GBs. Mostly due to Thaidakar (probably) slated to be important in a series set around a century after SA.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Ammanas]

Havnt finished yet but I don’t mind spoilers so I’m posting here. I’ve seen a lot of criticism about this book on other sites about the pacing, and humor of this book. And yes if you are looking for a traditional novel and plot structure than these books have been suffering greatly since Words of Radiance. But I’ve come to look at the Stormlight series as the fantasy equivalent of War and Peace by Tolstoy (one of my favorite books). It’s not about traditional arcs but more of capturing these moments in time and what these momentous events meant to various characters. You follow them through these highs and lows and yes there are a lot of quiet moments and odd ebbs and flows to the novel but isn’t that what real life is all about? Anyways just a quick digression.
 

The humor and general kind of feeling of these books will always have young adult overtones. I’m sorry it just will; but I find it charming to tell you the truth. And hey, if I want to read a book with foul language and awkward graphic sex scenes I can always pull out a Joe Abercrombie book from my shelf.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ammanas

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

23 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

.
 

The humor and general kind of feeling of these books will always have young adult overtones. I’m sorry it just will; but I find it charming to tell you the truth. And hey, if I want to read a book with foul language and awkward graphic sex scenes I can always pull out a Joe Abercrombie book from my shelf.

I think this kind of criticism is very valid, what is not honest however is to pretend this light-hearted young novel feel wasn't present in the previous entries of Stormlight series as well

[Eris she/her]

I have finally finished the book and can I say. I am so proud of Kaladin acknowledging he cannot save everyone and that is okay. It is okay to hurt when you fail. I just found the whole thing to be beautifully written and the fact he acknowledged he still is not okay but he is trying, I just cried so hard at those scenes. 
 
This book was really about people finding their voice like someone has mentioned before. Kaladin and Syl found their voices and used it to help others. Similar to Dabbid and Rlain who used the prejudices thrown at them as strength and found who they were. Adolin found his voice when he fought against all spren who said Deadeyes were nothing but empty shells. Maya spoke and told her to not let her CHOICE or should I say VOICE be taken from her and the other deadeyes. Shallan spoke out against Mraize, standing up for herself. Navani finally acknowledged who she was and finally voiced that she is a scholar. And Venli said her truth and voiced what she had done. 
I thought this book did such a good job in letting the oppressed and the quiet, be heard. 
My only complaint is not enough Renarin who gosh darn it needs his voice heard! 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Isn't

Spoiler

Mr T becoming Odium part of the Endgame plan? I mean at his worst he's way cleverer than Rayse and I'm sure SA part 2  will see Odium either escape Roshar or come close to it, because something HUGE has to trigger that distinction between the first and second 5 books.

 

But Mr T was changed by Cultivation to explicitly contrast between Empathetic/Passionate and Intelligent. So when he's smart, he's least aligned with his Shard's Intent, and sometimes, when he's most aligned to the Shard, he's really, really illogical/stupid. This is a gamble, surely, to create a window in the future.

 

And when he's stupid, he's gonna be full of Passion/Compassion, and we know there's a Shard called Mercy...

 

What if this is a plan by Cultivation to SET Odium free of Roshar, which initially looks like she's sacrificing the Cosmere to protect herself and her world, but actually the aim is to neutralise the inherently dangerous Shard without destroying it (which seems dangerous) by making it possible for the Bearer to also pick up Mercy, and getting him to Mercy (leaving the Cosmere), creating a balance that inherently curtails Odium? That's the only way it can work in an actual benevolent God, right?  That's the safety check?

 

Anyway next book will have a heavy Shinovar focus so we will see a lot of Cultivation lore, I think.