Lirin Hate Thread

[Leuthie]

13 hours ago, Seloun said:

It's a little bit weird that in a book containing Moash and the literal embodiment(s) of divine hatred that a surgeon that does nothing but pro-bono work is so hated:

I have to assume there's a bit of the uncanny valley effect going on here, where Lirin is so close to being a hero that his flaws end up standing out more than in someone more villanous. But let's not confuse 'not perfect' with 'evil scum'.

Couple of refutations:

...

Thank you for looking all those up. Lirin made Kaladin who he is. Kaladin loves Lirin, despite the few lines we see where Lirin lets his principles get ahead of his love for his son.

Also keep in mind, Lirin doesn't see everything we see. He doesn't see Kaladin's struggles, only Kaladin's glory. His son went off to war, got rewarded for it and now thinks war is the answer. That's what Lirin sees.

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, Bliev said:

Dalinar is the same as Lirin lol.

I can see similarities but I wouldn't go this far. Dalinar has known for a long time he wasn't a good father; Lirin wasn't self-aware of the degree to which he was the problem, and in his head, made it Kaladin's fault that their relationship fell apart. Dalinar might want Adolin to be better, but even he didn't do what Lirin did.

[+Bliev she/her]

Just now, Greywatch said:

I can see similarities but I wouldn't go this far. Dalinar has known for a long time he wasn't a good father; Lirin wasn't self-aware of the degree to which he was the problem, and in his head, made it Kaladin's fault that their relationship fell apart. Dalinar might want Adolin to be better, but even he didn't do what Lirin did.

True. I may have gone a bit far with that. :-) 

I do think they are fundamentally similar though, and I don't think that Dalinar believes he's being a poor father *now*, so I'll retain that component. There's plenty of  want of self-awareness to go around here, that's for sure. I just want to see a similar understanding between Adolin and Dalinar as we just saw between Kal and Lirin so badly. 

[Leuthie]

Reminds me of a friend of mine. He hated his dad through his teens into his twenties. His dad is one of the more fun, smartest and most stable people I know. They had a running argument for a decade and my friend just hated him.

We're in our 40s now and my friend loves his dad and regrets the ruin they made of that decade. He literally didn't let his dad get near the grandkids for the first 2 years of their lives.

I feel like all you Lirin haters are seeing through the eyes of Kaladin and other 20 somethings trying to break away from strong fathers.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Leuthie

[Greywatch she/her]

3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Reminds me of a friend of mine. He hated his dad through his teens into his twenties. His dad is one of the more fun, smartest and most stable people I know. They had a running argument for a decade and my friend just hated him.

We're in our 40s now and my friend loves his dad and regrets the ruin they made of that decade. He literally didn't let his dad get near the grandkids for the first 2 years of their lives.

All you Lirin haters are seeing through the eyes of Kaladin and other 20 somethings trying to break away from strong fathers.

This is a strong over-generalization that is not going to be actually accurate. Anecdotes are not evidence, and though it might feel like it makes sense for you to mentally slot Lirin into this one man's place, it's... not true.

[Nesh he/him]

14 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Dalinar is the same as Lirin lol. He's fundamentally disappointed in his son's life choices and thinks he is treading down a dangerous path devoid of Honor. They're both dogmatic and rigid. Dalinar couldn't even look his sons in the eyes and admit he killed their mom. Look, I love me some Dalinar, but good dad he is not.  

Yet. Let's see if he can fix his relationship with Adolin in Book 5. 

I can see Dalinar's points I mean his son did murder a man in cold blood.  Is he perfect, no.  He is trying though.  He's still growing and changing. 

[Leuthie]

Just now, Greywatch said:

This is a strong over-generalization that is not going to be actually accurate. Anecdotes are not evidence, and though it might feel like it makes sense for you to mentally slot Lirin into this one man's place, it's... not true.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum. You're totally right, my little aside doesn't impart any truth to this matter. Good catch. Should I delete it to not taint the building thesis or can I leave it in and just keep it as part of a casual discussion?

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, Leuthie said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum. You're totally right, my little aside doesn't impart any truth to this matter. Good catch. Should I delete it to not taint the building thesis or can I leave it in and just keep it as part of a casual discussion?

Lmao I was speaking as a fellow conversation partner, not a mod, Leuthie. I resisted it because "All you Lirin haters are seeing through the eyes of Kaladin and other 20 somethings trying to break away from strong fathers." was not true and it feels like you said it just to provoke a reaction.

[Leuthie]

21 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Lmao I was speaking as a fellow conversation partner, not a mod, Leuthie. I resisted it because "All you Lirin haters are seeing through the eyes of Kaladin and other 20 somethings trying to break away from strong fathers." was not true and it feels like you said it just to provoke a reaction.

Oops. I made an edit to make it less untrue.

[Golstar]

I like that Lirin is flawed. We see a man of great compassion and humility - someone who by an outsider could easily be seen as almost saintly in his benevolence, pacifism and altruism. But we also see a father with a troubled relationship with his son, a man who lacks empathy and tolerance for his son forging his own path. There is no doubt to me that Lirin cares deeply for his son, torn between conflicting emotions and convictions, and struggling to discern between what he wants to be best for Kaladin and what is actually best for Kaladin.

Very often in fantasy literature parent-child relationships are either extremely positive, extremely negative or a trope of stubborn conflict resolving to extremely positive. Kaladin and Lirin have a more complex relationship, and one that shows us the price of a strong conviction. What is a boon to Lirin's community is often a source of pain and conflict to his family. He is a flawed man - and that's refreshing. People are rarely perfect. Is he often annoying and almost fanatical in his beliefs? I think so. But it's a nice departure from usual tyrannical and domineering fanatical patriarch. This is a softer fanaticism - with a different dynamic. That's awesome.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Golstar

[+Bliev she/her]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Also keep in mind, Lirin doesn't see everything we see. He doesn't see Kaladin's struggles, only Kaladin's glory. His son went off to war, got rewarded for it and now thinks war is the answer. That's what Lirin sees.

This is an incredibly compelling point, I think. We have seen Kaladin through so very much. We even meet Lirin through his eyes. We know his internal struggles better than any other character, and in some ways, probably better than Kaladin himself even does. 

I can't imagine ever saying to my kids with Lirin says to Kaladin in RoW. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if I ever did. But that doesn't mean i would *be*  a failure as a parent. It means I made a mistake. Lirin made a terrible mistake. But he loved Kaladin throughout his entire life, bore the guilt for his and Tien's deaths for years, knowing he was the reason they went to war. Then his joy is tainted  by the knowledge that the boy who couldn't stand to see blood and cried for ever person they lost was a Shardbearer of destruction. Yes, Kaladin kills to protect. But that is antithetical to Lirin's mind. He cannot fathom it. Much as Dalinar cannot fathom Adolin killing Sadeas as "honorable" even though there are spren who would disagree (as per wob). 

I appreciate  that there are people who feel pained by Lirin's behavior here, and I think we should feel that pain. It was a painful experience. But both Kaladin and Lirin grew from it, and I think that's important too. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, Nesh said:

I think the only good Cosmere dad we've seen is Dalinar, and that took shardic intervention.

Dalinar is a terrible father.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

3 hours ago, USS bridge four said:

That's a hot take. I'd prefer Lirin over almost every cosmere dad.  Yes he is bad at communication and was unnecessarly hard on Kal but Oh boy you'd take Straff over him? You'd take Dedalin over him? I think the visceral hate is because the things Lirin does poorly is more relatable to most of but he's not the worst dad in the Cosmere. 

I mean sure, Straff is horrible but he's also the big bad operating on a completely different scale of villainy. He does villainous and psychopathic things because he's a psychopathic villain and that's just what they do.

Lirin is a normal dude in a normal life, who had multiple chances to remove his family from harm's way, and was given ample and compelling reasons to do so. Everything that went wrong for Lirin's family went wrong because Lirin chose himself over his family. Over, and over, and over again, Lirin chose Lirin. 

When Kaladin talks to a drunk Lirin, he moans that "he never should have come back to this tiny, backward, foolish town", and that "They don't want me here. They never did." So why did you stay Lirin, keeping your family in misery, no matter how much overwhelming evidence was screaming to leave? Even pre-Roshone, it seems everyone else in the family would've been su-uuper good with leaving Hearthstone. But, nooooo. Lirin couldn't leave, acting like he was doing it out of his duty as a surgeon to a town that didn't have anyone else. Even if that was true, he's still putting the best interests of his family second to his own interests. And besides, I think he's just hiding behind that duty. Lirin stayed know Hearthstone out of service to his ego and nothing more. He needed to be the person everyone depended on. Greatshell in a small pond. Lirin always chooses Lirin.

Kaladin wasn't the favored son because he was the oldest or for his general mirth. He was favored because he had the aptitude to follow in Lirin's footsteps, doing what LIrin loves. Once that path ended, so did Lirin's "love" for Kaladin. Even though it was his fault that Kaladin stopped being a surgeon!

Post-Roshone, Lirin is unliked and sitting on a pile of stolen spheres, but still can't manage to keep his storming head down for one storming second, making himself the de-facto spokesman for a town that doesn't like him by addressing an obviously grumpy bright lord who was obviously not interested in speaking. From that time, until Tien is conscripted, Roshone gives starker and starker evidence that things were not going to end well if Lirin stayed. But nope! Lirin just had to stay and had to antagonize because who would he be if he wasn't the center of attention?

And Lirin wasn't just a bad dad to Kaladin. Tien couldn't be a surgeon, so he never received the level of attention that Kaladin did. And because Lirin didn't pay as much attention to Tien, Tien got sent to war. Directly. Lirin knew conscription law well enough to know that Kaladin would be protected from that sort of revenge but it never crossed his mind that Tien wouldn't be. If you live in warfaring Alethkar, under a city lord who hates you, thinks you killed his son, and obviously wants revenge, maybe pay attention to how conscription law applies to all of your sons and not just the one that you want to be your generational avatar? He never considered that Tien wasn't protected because he never considered Tien much at all.

I don't need to break down Lirin's awfulness from RoW because it all stems from the same place as above. Instead of making horrible choices in regards to staying in Hearthstone in the name of his duty as a surgeon, he's now making horrible choices in regards to his attitude towards Kaladin in the name of his duty as a pacifist. BS. You can still be a pacifist during the literal war of armageddon but you don't get to actively be disgusted with those who choose to do otherwise, once again, in the literal war of armageddon. But even though Kaladin did what he did (and consequentially became what he became) because he was trying to save Tien (and Lirin's ass - because once again, Tien getting conscripted was 100% Lirin's fault), Lirin won't accept what Kaladin is, or what he has done. Unless, of course, he goes back to being what Lirin wants him to be. Only then, would Kaladin be allowed to earn his love back.

What Lirin should have done is thrown himself at Kaladin's feet and begged forgiveness for how much misery his selfishness had brought their family. And told him thank you for trying to save Tien. And then he should've said about 1000 thanks because he got one son back and spend every day for the rest of his life being overwhelming happy that Kaladin was alive, no matter what his job was. And be forever thankful that his actions and self-obsessiveness had only killed one of his sons instead of two. 

That's how any loving parent should act. You thought you lost both but then got one back? It can only be an unbridled joy for what you still have. But no. Lirin will only ever truly love a son that chooses to be exactly like Lirin. 

Because Lirin only ever chooses what's best for Lirin, Over, and over, and over again. He directly, and continually, made his family's lives worse, over an extended period of time, killing one child, and emotionally scarring the other, once again, directly and continually. Only ever because Lirin only wanted what Lirin wanted and never gave a damn about how his actions affected his family.

Because Lirin. Is. The. Worst

[king of nowhere]

38 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Lirin is a normal dude in a normal life, who had multiple chances to remove his family from harm's way, and was given ample and compelling reasons to do so. Everything that went wrong for Lirin's family went wrong because Lirin chose himself over his family. Over, and over, and over again, Lirin chose Lirin. 

Lirin couldn't leave, acting like he was doing it out of his duty as a surgeon to a town that didn't have anyone else. Even if that was true, he's still putting the best interests of his family second to his own interests.

you mean, in the same way that kaladin could have escaped from the battle of the tower with his bridge crew, but choose to stay and help dalinar? and that led to three of his comrades dead at the battle, and many others dead later by szeth or other means. all because kaladin is putting the best interest of his crew second to him playing hero. or when kaladin led his squad against a shardbearer, getting them killed in the process.

in fact, i'd argue that putting the well-being of foreigners before your loved ones is what defines a hero. putting yourself and your clan above others is the mark of a petty man. thieving, corruption, bullying is justified by "my family comes first". the most common excuse you hear out of corrupted politicians or mafia henchmen is "i have family"; as in, "if i was stealing for myself it would be bad, but since i'm stealing for my wife and sons, then it's all right. it's all right to steal from someone else's children, because they are not mine". Being a teacher, i've seen countless kids ruined because their parents protected them from the consequences of misbehavior, because they were their sons. Overprotectiveness is not good, and arguing that one should put his family before strangers like this is a berserker button for me. when the same sentiment is applied to national level, it leads to xenophobia, aggression, and strife.

Nope. being a hero does not work this way. behaving this way does not make the world any better. Lirin is a hero exactly because he puts the well being of his town above his own.
 

Quote

 

 And besides, I think he's just hiding behind that duty. Lirin stayed know Hearthstone out of service to his ego and nothing more. He needed to be the person everyone depended on. Greatshell in a small pond. Lirin always chooses Lirin.
Kaladin wasn't the favored son because he was the oldest or for his general mirth. He was favored because he had the aptitude to follow in Lirin's footsteps, doing what LIrin loves.

And Lirin wasn't just a bad dad to Kaladin. Tien couldn't be a surgeon, so he never received the level of attention that Kaladin did

 

Proof required. Do we have indication that kaladin was favored - besides being given lessons in surgery, which of course are needed for his job, while tien was being trained in carpentry by someone else, because lirin can't teach carpentry? do we have any indication that tien was treated unfavorably? that tien got no attention? Do we have any real indication of lirin acting out of ego?

Unless you count "doing your best to help others" as nothing but a big attempt at ego stroking. in which case, kaladin would still be much worse than his father.

Quote

And because Lirin didn't pay as much attention to Tien, Tien got sent to war. Directly. Lirin knew conscription law well enough to know that Kaladin would be protected from that sort of revenge but it never crossed his mind that Tien wouldn't be. If you live in warfaring Alethkar, under a city lord who hates you, thinks you killed his son, and obviously wants revenge, maybe pay attention to how conscription law applies to all of your sons and not just the one that you want to be your generational avatar?

so, now lirin is a monster for missing an obscure passage of the law. i guess if he really cared about his family, he should have been a lawyer after all.

let me ask, how would you - exactly - plan to apprentice your son who can't stand the sight of blood as a surgeon? are you planning to do it as a facade? your son is never going to actually work as a surgeon, but you'll put it in paper so he'll be protected by conscription. so your son will know no job and will live all his life sheltered like this? what happens when you die of old age and he has no job? and all this because of a remote possibility of conscription; when tien got apprenticed as carpenter, it was several years earlier. shame on lirin for not predicting the future too.

And it's strange, but I was under the impression that tien being conscripted was roshone's fault. a revenge for failing to save roshone's son.

Quote

You can still be a pacifist during the literal war of armageddon

You, as reader, know this is the literal war of armageddon, with enemy forces led by a hostile god bent on destruction.

Lirin, on the other hand, knows nothing of this. what Lirin actually knows is that a people that has always been enslaved managed to rebel, and they are treating everyone more fairly than anyone would have expected given the premise - and better than most brightlords.

under that premise, it makes full sense to not resist the invasion. your terrorists are out freedom fighters, after all. it's easy to sort out right and wrong in hindsight.

Quote

He directly, and continually, made his family's lives worse, over an extended period of time, killing one child, and emotionally scarring the other

so, first lirin directly caused tien's death, and now he even "directly killed" him? And he also caused kaladin's depression, no less!

all this sounds like you have already condemned lirin from the start, and your are reading everything he did - or didn't - in the worst possible light to justify the outcome.

but above that, this sounds so much like what kaladin thinks when depressed. if we boil it down, your accusation has the following arguments

- lirin helped people out of pride, not altruism

- lirin meddling made worse the lives of those he was trying to protect

- lirin failed at protecting tien, for his fault, for not trying hard enough

that's exactly what kaladin thinks when depressed. he thinks he tries to help just because he can't admit defeat, and that all those people whom he failed to protect are his personal responsibility for not being strong enough. that his attempts to protect caused the death of those he was trying to protect, and he should just give up. and we all know those arguments are faulty, we should not apply them to someone else.

 

[USS bridge four he/him]

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

So why did you stay Lirin, keeping your family in misery, no matter how much overwhelming evidence was screaming to leave? Even pre-Roshone, it seems everyone else in the family would've been su-uuper good with leaving Hearthstone. But, nooooo. Lirin couldn't leave, acting like he was doing it out of his duty as a surgeon to a town that didn't have anyone else. Even if that was true, he's still putting the best interests of his family second to his own interests. And besides, I think he's just hiding behind that duty. Lirin stayed know Hearthstone out of service to his ego and nothing more. He needed to be the person everyone depended on. Greatshell in a small pond. Lirin always chooses Lirin.

I disagree as someone who's grown up in a less than ideal place that causes my whole family besides my dad to be sick on a regular basis because my dad is a physician it makes total sense that Lirin wants to stay in Hearthstone. Physicians build relationships with the community they are serving and Lirin to leave his duty behind and go because of his family is selfish. It's like saying physicians shouldn't help us during the pandemic because they have a family and the consequences of it could harm their family, however if Lirin told his whole family to stay in place and not go unless he's going I could see you're point. 

 

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Kaladin wasn't the favored son because he was the oldest or for his general mirth. He was favored because he had the aptitude to follow in Lirin's footsteps, doing what LIrin loves. Once that path ended, so did Lirin's "love" for Kaladin. Even though it was his fault that Kaladin stopped being a surgeon

It wasn't Lirin's fault that Kaladin stopped being a surgeon it was Kaladin's choice to go be with Tien to protect him. It was also the army's fault that Kaladin wasn't a medic.

Also as many people have mentioned most of who Kaladin is is because of values Lirin instilled in him. I agree that Lirin is most defiantly a jerk, is way to stubborn and emotional dumb but I don't think he's the worst or a coward or a inherently selfish man. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by USS bridge four
Sorry Didn't want to double post and had some more thoughts.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

1 hour ago, USS bridge four said:

It wasn't Lirin's fault that Kaladin stopped being a surgeon it was Kaladin's choice to go be with Tien to protect him. It was also the army's fault that Kaladin wasn't a medic.

Also as many people have mentioned most of who Kaladin is is because of values Lirin instilled in him. I agree that Lirin is most defiantly a jerk, is way to stubborn and emotional dumb but I don't think he's the worst or a coward or a inherently selfish man. 

Kaladin only “chose” to go to war in response to Lirin 

 

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

you mean, in the same way that kaladin could have escaped from the battle of the tower with his bridge crew, but choose to stay and help dalinar? and that led to three of his comrades dead at the battle, and many others dead later by szeth or other means. all because kaladin is putting the best interest of his crew second to him playing hero. or when kaladin led his squad against a shardbearer, getting them killed in the process.

in fact, i'd argue that putting the well-being of foreigners before your loved ones is what defines a hero. putting yourself and your clan above others is the mark of a petty man. thieving, corruption, bullying is justified by "my family comes first". the most common excuse you hear out of corrupted politicians or mafia henchmen is "i have family"; as in, "if i was stealing for myself it would be bad, but since i'm stealing for my wife and sons, then it's all right. it's all right to steal from someone else's children, because they are not mine". Being a teacher, i've seen countless kids ruined because their parents protected them from the consequences of misbehavior, because they were their sons. Overprotectiveness is not good, and arguing that one should put his family before strangers like this is a berserker button for me. when the same sentiment is applied to national level, it leads to xenophobia, aggression, and strife.

Nope. being a hero does not work this way. behaving this way does not make the world any better. Lirin is a hero exactly because he puts the well being of his town above his own.
 

Proof required. Do we have indication that kaladin was favored - besides being given lessons in surgery, which of course are needed for his job, while tien was being trained in carpentry by someone else, because lirin can't teach carpentry? do we have any indication that tien was treated unfavorably? that tien got no attention? Do we have any real indication of lirin acting out of ego?

Unless you count "doing your best to help others" as nothing but a big attempt at ego stroking. in which case, kaladin would still be much worse than his father.

so, now lirin is a monster for missing an obscure passage of the law. i guess if he really cared about his family, he should have been a lawyer after all.

let me ask, how would you - exactly - plan to apprentice your son who can't stand the sight of blood as a surgeon? are you planning to do it as a facade? your son is never going to actually work as a surgeon, but you'll put it in paper so he'll be protected by conscription. so your son will know no job and will live all his life sheltered like this? what happens when you die of old age and he has no job? and all this because of a remote possibility of conscription; when tien got apprenticed as carpenter, it was several years earlier. shame on lirin for not predicting the future too.

And it's strange, but I was under the impression that tien being conscripted was roshone's fault. a revenge for failing to save roshone's son.

You, as reader, know this is the literal war of armageddon, with enemy forces led by a hostile god bent on destruction.

Lirin, on the other hand, knows nothing of this. what Lirin actually knows is that a people that has always been enslaved managed to rebel, and they are treating everyone more fairly than anyone would have expected given the premise - and better than most brightlords.

under that premise, it makes full sense to not resist the invasion. your terrorists are out freedom fighters, after all. it's easy to sort out right and wrong in hindsight.

so, first lirin directly caused tien's death, and now he even "directly killed" him? And he also caused kaladin's depression, no less!

all this sounds like you have already condemned lirin from the start, and your are reading everything he did - or didn't - in the worst possible light to justify the outcome.

but above that, this sounds so much like what kaladin thinks when depressed. if we boil it down, your accusation has the following arguments

- lirin helped people out of pride, not altruism

- lirin meddling made worse the lives of those he was trying to protect

- lirin failed at protecting tien, for his fault, for not trying hard enough

that's exactly what kaladin thinks when depressed. he thinks he tries to help just because he can't admit defeat, and that all those people whom he failed to protect are his personal responsibility for not being strong enough. that his attempts to protect caused the death of those he was trying to protect, and he should just give up. and we all know those arguments are faulty, we should not apply them to someone else.

 

Your section on what my argument supposedly boils down to is so wrong that I’m not sure you actually read what I wrote. But thanks for jumping in and responding so aggressively.

Lirin didn’t help people out of pride, he stayed in Hearthstone out of pride when he had the means, opportunities, and skills to take his family and go somewhere where he could help people AND keep his family safe and happy. These things are not mutually exclusive. He chose to keep his family in a town where they weren’t wanted and where their safety was threatened. 

I never said that “Lirin’s meddling made worse the lives of those he was trying to protect”

His refusal to leave a town where his family wasn’t wanted made his family’s daily life isolated and kept the kids from ever feeling any sort of inclusion. His “meddling” made worse the lives of his family.

“lirin failed at protecting tien, for his fault, for not trying hard enough”

Yeah, I didn’t say that either. He failed Tien because their relationship was much weaker due to Tien not following in Lirins footsteps. Lirin didn’t “miss some obscure passage of law”. He very clearly knew the law, given his initial response quoting the law to Roshone. He’d obviously given it thought. But only as it related to Kaladin, not Tien.

Thanks for misconstruing everything I wrote but I think I can boil down all of your rebuttals to a bunch of excuses to try and make a supremely selfish man a hero. Lirin could have helped people anywhere. He chose not to and his family paid the price.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

1 hour ago, USS bridge four said:

It's like saying physicians shouldn't help us during the pandemic because they have a family and the consequences of it could harm their family, however if Lirin told his whole family to stay in place and not go unless he's going I could see you're point. 

 

 

Considering that my wife just transferred into a new job at the ER in her hospital (leaving her very safe department) solely because they need help and it was the right thing to do, I strongly disagree that what I'm saying is anything like that. If Lirin refused to leave Hearthstone because a pandemic was ravaging the town and they needed him, that would be a completely different story. But that's not the case, at all. If he had left, at any time, the city lord would've just had to find another way for his people to be taken care of. Like, that's how it works. Lirin acts like he is the one and only person on Roshar that is capable and willing to treat the small town maladies that the people of Hearthstone incur. It's almost like he has an, I don't know...god complex??? He could've left and been a surgeon elsewhere and accomplish the same amount of good, Hearthstone would've been just fine, and his family would've been in a much better situation. 

[Nesh he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

You, as reader, know this is the literal war of armageddon, with enemy forces led by a hostile god bent on destruction.

Lirin, on the other hand, knows nothing of this. what Lirin actually knows is that a people that has always been enslaved managed to rebel, and they are treating everyone more fairly than anyone would have expected given the premise - and better than most brightlords.

under that premise, it makes full sense to not resist the invasion. your terrorists are out freedom fighters, after all. it's easy to sort out right and wrong in hindsight.

I'm pretty sure Lirin knows what a Desolation is, and the amount of refugees pouring into Hearthstone should have tipped him off.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

Proof required. Do we have indication that kaladin was favored - besides being given lessons in surgery, which of course are needed for his job, while tien was being trained in carpentry by someone else, because lirin can't teach carpentry? do we have any indication that tien was treated unfavorably? that tien got no attention? Do we have any real indication of lirin acting out of ego?

 

 

How Lirin treats Kaladin is a fairly classic example of a parent giving a majority of their attention to one child, trying to force them to have the life that the parent wanted for themselves, regardless of what the child wants. I believe the family dynamics that result from this prime relationship are also classical, and fairly obvious. Just as its obvious that Tian gets the short-end of the Lirin stick in terms of familial relationships. If you really need direct proof, I'd suggest a reread or three.

[USS bridge four he/him]

41 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Considering that my wife just transferred into a new job at the ER in her hospital (leaving her very safe department) solely because they need help and it was the right thing to do, I strongly disagree that what I'm saying is anything like that. If Lirin refused to leave Hearthstone because a pandemic was ravaging the town and they needed him, that would be a completely different story. But that's not the case, at all. If he had left, at any time, the city lord would've just had to find another way for his people to be taken care of. Like, that's how it works. Lirin acts like he is the one and only person on Roshar that is capable and willing to treat the small town maladies that the people of Hearthstone incur. It's almost like he has an, I don't know...god complex??? He could've left and been a surgeon elsewhere and accomplish the same amount of good, Hearthstone would've been just fine, and his family would've been in a much better situation. 

I can kinda get that, I might've gone to far with the comparison, but I do feel it would be wrong for Lirin to leave all those Refugees to suffer without proper care. I guess I just view Lirin's actions through a different lens. I think I might view him through Kaladin's idelistic version of his father than what might actually be happening. 

I do wonder if there's an emotional attachment to Hearthstone for Lirin or if just doesn't like new places as some reasons he doesn't move. 

I hope I don't come across as aggressive and if I'm approaching being disrespectful let me know. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by USS bridge four

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

4 minutes ago, USS bridge four said:

I can kinda get that, I might've gone to far with the comparison, but I do feel it would be wrong for Lirin to leave all those Refugees to suffer without proper care. I guess I just view Lirin's actions through a different lens. I think I might view him through Kaladin's idelistic version of his father than what might actually be happening. 

I do wonder if there's an emotional attachment to Hearthstone for Lirin or if just doesn't like new places as some reasons he doesn't move. 

I hope I don't come across as aggressive and if I'm approaching being disrespectful let me know. 

Staying to care for refugees post-Everstorm is a different story. That duty I understand. I'm only saying Liran should've left pre-Tien/Kaladin going to war. 

[USS bridge four he/him]

3 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Staying to care for refugees post-Everstorm is a different story. That duty I understand. I'm only saying Liran should've left pre-Tien/Kaladin going to war. 

Okay that might've been a misunderstanding on my part. I get that especially with the potential educational opportunities it would've provided them but I guess he is stubborn and I see what you meant before. 

[+Bliev she/her]

11 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Staying to care for refugees post-Everstorm is a different story. That duty I understand. I'm only saying Liran should've left pre-Tien/Kaladin going to war. 

From what I remember, Lirin did not trust that Roshone *would* have taken  care of the people of Hearthstone, and he felt a responsibility for them. And he truly believed that he would bear the brunt of Roshone's hatred, and was fine holding that. He thought in a short time Kaladin would escape to his future, and never at all thought that Tien would be conscripted at that age. Maybe it was shortsighted of him not to truly see the depth of Roshne's depravity. But I wouldn't call it selfish, personally. I also tried to look back for in text evidence that Tien was overlooked by his father. It seemed that he was trying to respect Tien's inability to do the job, not that he resented him or ignored him for it.

With that said, I think this is probably a really perfect example of just how differently people can read the same characters, and the same text. And I think that's okay too.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

14 minutes ago, Bliev said:

. I also tried to look back for in text evidence that Tien was overlooked by his father. It seemed that he was trying to respect Tien's inability to do the job, not that he resented him or ignored him for it.

I think the fact we go so little of Lirins thoughts about Tian speaks volumes about their relationship, Liran made it very clear that his focus was solely on Kaladins future, giving him zero say in it. With Tian, he’s just like, yeah do whatever.

[+Bliev she/her]

16 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I think the fact we go so little of Lirins thoughts about Tian speaks volumes about their relationship, Liran made it very clear that his focus was solely on Kaladins future, giving him zero say in it. With Tian, he’s just like, yeah do whatever.

I just figured it was because every thing we see of Lirin is via Kaladin’s POV. And I feel like if Kal thought Tien was ignored and such by Lirin he wouldn’t have respected his father the way he does, personally. We don’t know anything about what he says to Tien except as reported out by Kal. So I don’t think we can make those assumptions about his feelings without his POVs. I can see why you would interpret it that way; I just read it very very differently.