Vyre Hate Thread [Support]

[The Ryshadium]

Moash was despicable before, but now he's just the worst person ever. I thought Moash was going to follow his own advice and jump when he lost the connection to Odium at the end. I kind of wish he did.... It would have been a sort of narrative ketek or chiasmus which would have been a poetic ending for such a cremling. It could still happen, but I'm sure Brandon has more plans for Moash. 

For those complaining about it from a writing perspective: It is not unrealistic to write Moash as he is in this book. Even when he doesn't feel remorse for killing Teft. There are plenty of people that feel sorry for themselves and the guilt they feel rather than truly being sorry for harming others. It's actually quite common for people to feel that way. It just shows that Moash is selfish to his core. It seems like some of you won't be satisfied unless Moash gets a redemption arc. Remember he can still get one. Dalinar got one after all. 

edit: Do you think calling someone cremling as a derogatory term is kinda racist because of the sleepless? idk

Edited November 23, 2020 by The Ryshadium

[Eris she/her]

Moash is inhuman. There I said it. He has thrown away his humanity and I hope he suffers as much and more than Kaladin has because of him. It's almost like he enjoys tormenting Kaladin so that he can be in the right. Like when Lirin and Kaladin acknowledge they help people in different ways. It's almost like Moash is trying to provoke Kaladin to prove me can be full of hate too. Ahhh I just hate him so much after all this. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

My hate and indignation for Moash peaked in WoR after he betrayed Kaladin. OB I was grimly satisfied by him, since he met all my expectations. RoW I was pretty indifferent to him, as there were no surprises there, and neither did I expect any even for a second. 

If anything I was amused by Moash in a gallows humor kind of way. Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to. Kaladin spoke the Fourth Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to say it, when otherwise Kaladin might not have been capable of ever swearing those words. At this rate I'm going to be quite interested in Moash in book 5 to see if he again forces Kaladin to be the first KR to reach the Fifth Ideal (of this batch of KR). 

[Eris she/her]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

My hate and indignation for Moash peaked in WoR after he betrayed Kaladin. OB I was grimly satisfied by him, since he met all my expectations. RoW I was pretty indifferent to him, as there were no surprises there, and neither did I expect any even for a second. 

If anything I was amused by Moash in a gallows humor kind of way. Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to. Kaladin spoke the Fourth Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to say it, when otherwise Kaladin might not have been capable of ever swearing those words. At this rate I'm going to be quite interested in Moash in book 5 to see if he again forces Kaladin to be the first KR to reach the Fifth Ideal (of this batch of KR). 

I never noticed that but that could be one of Moash's only purposes in the books. To help Kaladin along

[Winds Alight she/her]

I just finished RoW like, 30 minutes ago and I am. LIVID WITH ANGER.

Lol I don't see myself ever accepting a redemption arc for that small. ugly. despicable. piece. of. CREM lmaooooooo.

Storm Moash. Storm him.

[Naerin]

15 hours ago, Danex said:

I would like to note that there’s actually 2 kinds of Moash hate in this thread, and they definitely aren’t created equal. 

Group 1 is all of the people who hate Moash in-world. They hate the character for all the awful things he’s done. 

Group 2 is all of the people who hate Moash from a writing perspective. They think he’s a flat character, not interesting. They feel like the Group 1 type hatred is fake and forced. 

So there are actually 2 nearly opposite opinions here, despite seeming like we’re all in agreement. 
At least we all know which group is right. 

I'm in both groups . I think Moash/Vyre is a super interesting concept. A great foil for Kaladin, in that he has given in to the numbness of despair, stops caring because it's just too painful. As opposed to Kaladin. Who. Just. Keeps. Fighting!  *fist pump* Also a great parallel to Dalinar, going all "Sure Odium, have my pain" (slightly less inspiring than Dalinar's response...)

But I think the execution could have been better. His bonds with Kaladin and the rest of bridge four weren't set up all that well. We were kind of just told in WOR that he and Kaladin had this close bond. We weren't really shown it the way we have been with Teft and Rock, and Lopen, etc... So his subsequent jaunt into villainy, while conceptually interesting, doesn't feel fully earned for the character (at least in my mind - I can certainly understand those who disagree). Mainly because we don't know much about the character besides the very specific beats in his vilification arc. Think about it. Aside from the motivations/experiences directly related to him turning evil, what do we know about him? What are his quirks, his likes and dislikes? What kind of friendship did he have with Teft or Rock or anyone? I think we hate him because of how well developed the characters he betrays are, not because of how well he is developed as a villain. 

Also, he shows up in ROF wearing an all-black version of the Bridge Four uniform. He supposedly cares so little about life that he goes around doing hard labour for "fun." And yet, HE HAD AN EVIL UNIFORM TAILORED FOR HIM! He had to go up to some poor tailor, show them the old Bridge Four uniform, and say "like this, but evil looking." That detail alone really made it hard for me to buy into him as a credible character, to be honest. Though I guess that does make him a dark mirror of Adolin too...

Edited November 23, 2020 by Naerin

[Rushu42 she/her]

I didn't get all the Moash hate before.

Times change.

Storming Moash. He does, in succession, the most horrible things you could possibly do to your friend. It's just beyond expression how terrible this person has become. He's one of the only characters that I've truly wished dead. And I don't just mean wanting him out of the story, which I've wanted for characters before. I mean  truly desiring to see him die on screen. I was so disappointed when he lived. Storm you, Vyre.

As for all the complaints about him being a flat character... I get it, and your arguments have a lot of merit. However, I would like to make two points to justify Sanderson's decision.

1. If Moash has become without nuance, I would contest that that is deliberate. We saw Moash, before, as a character with complex emotions, who has made bad decisions but who is clearly capable of making good ones. He was human. And then he, in a very obvious moment, surrendered that. When he let Odium take his pain, he gave up the ability to have emotions - the very thing that had previously brought him nuance. If he's a flat character, it's because he chose to be one.

2. To use a rather shallower argument, I think that it is perhaps okay that we have a character to hate without nuance. In this book, Sanderson repeatedly confronts us with difficult decisions. The singers are just liberated slaves seeking vengeance. The Fused have honor, and are wearied after so long at war. Extremely cool fabrials, including airships, come at the cost of trapping spren. Even the being controlling the force of hatred itself was once a man who just wished to save humanity. So maybe having one character that we can just despise is okay.

Either way, I hate Moash, and I'm fine with that.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Rushu42
Left out a word

[LuckyJim]

15 hours ago, The Ryshadium said:

Moash was despicable before, but now he's just the worst person ever. I thought Moash was going to follow his own advice and jump when he lost the connection to Odium at the end. I kind of wish he did.... It would have been a sort of narrative ketek or chiasmus which would have been a poetic ending for such a cremling. It could still happen, but I'm sure Brandon has more plans for Moash. 

For those complaining about it from a writing perspective: It is not unrealistic to write Moash as he is in this book. Even when he doesn't feel remorse for killing Teft. There are plenty of people that feel sorry for themselves and the guilt they feel rather than truly being sorry for harming others. It's actually quite common for people to feel that way. It just shows that Moash is selfish to his core. It seems like some of you won't be satisfied unless Moash gets a redemption arc. Remember he can still get one. Dalinar got one after all. 

edit: Do you think calling someone cremling as a derogatory term is kinda racist because of the sleepless? idk

It's not unrealistic, but it's not satisfying either. Moash was honestly right about a lot of things, monarchy and the caste system set up by the Alethi is really bad, systemic oppression is the result of everyone involved, not just the few bad apples like Paladar and Roshone. But clearly those aspects of his character aren't important, he's just someone who torments Kaladin and pushes him to develop. It really bothers me because in the same book you have "The Lady of Pains" Raboniel, who tortured the heralds for thousands of years and builds genocidal tools but is also a complex and sympathetic character, but the guy who spent his entire life under the thumb of a cruel and oppressive monarchy is just a selfish monster.

I guess it's not impossible for him to get a redemption arc, but I don't know how it could be done in a satisfying way. His character is only used to mirror and torment Kaladin at this point, so I'm not sure how he could develop to be better aside from just going in the exact same direction of Kaladin and forgive the lighteyes.

Edited November 23, 2020 by LuckyJim

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

It's not unrealistic, but it's not satisfying either. Moash was honestly right about a lot of things, monarchy and the caste system set up by the Alethi is really bad, systemic oppression is the result of everyone involved, not just the few bad apples like Paladar and Roshone. But clearly those aspects of his character aren't important, he's just someone who torments Kaladin and pushes him to develop. It really bothers me because in the same book you have "The Lady of Pains" Raboniel, who tortured the heralds for thousands of years and builds genocidal tools but is also a complex and sympathetic character, but the guy who spent his entire life under the thumb of a cruel and oppressive monarchy is just a selfish monster.

I think that's the point of his character now. And I think the lack of satisfaction is also intentional. It's a representation of how lowly he became, that he torments Kaladin because Kaladin is the only thorn in his lie he has been telling himself for the last year. 

[Nymeros]

Sanderson really screwed up Moash's character. A pity.

[AlejandroTeodoro]

I was never a very big fan of Moash as a character, I found him very egocentric. However , I don’t think that his behavior in RoW is totally his blame. It seems like he became just a tool of Odium, in a way he is even closer to him than the Fused.

We can see that he told to the Pursuer not to touch Kaladin because then he will fall into full depression. Odium planned this to destroy Kaladin since he told that Kaladin is very dangerous. Moash is just a tool like was the Inquisitor who fought Vin (I don’t remember the name). That’s why he is so worry about Kaladin and consider him divine, human Moash was the only member of Bridge 4 that behaviour normal with Kaladin, and now he speaks as if Kaladin is undefeatable 

In fact, I think Moash will have at some point a kind of redemption.

[Morningtide she/her]

VYRE!!!!!! I HATE HIM. What I can't get over is the fact that he used to be Kaladin's friend and is now using that influence to stop Kaladin from killing him. I hate that he told Kaladin that he had a way to help him and THEN TOLD KALADIN TO KILL HIMSELF. He is despicable. I could not tolerate a Moash redemption arc unless it was particularly well written. There is no way that book five will go by without a showdown between Kaladin and Vyre. Personally, I think that the showdown will entail Kaladin killing Moash to defend others, completing his "I can kill to defend" feelings.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

Moash is Stormin' evil, rusts I hate him more than Umbridge, his time for a redemption arc passed long ago, he will never, ever be redeemed. Kaladin better send him to Braize in book five.

[+CallsignZen she/her]

there’s a petition on change.org to send moash to damnation place of taln and you better BELIEVE i singed that thing so fast

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I want Moash to get a redemption arc just so that he can be killed half way through it.