[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

[Wildernesboy]

I think on achieving the Fifth ideal you can use your stormlight more efficiently and your powers are enhanced.  

[hskeeter]

Lots of good suggestions and logic behind them.  I do have a the feeling the 5th ideal is the definitive statement of how the Knight interpret their own role in the order.  I also believe honor needs to be tied into it somewhere.  Here is my current guess.

"I will teach people to protect themselves and others with honor and integrity."

[daypast17]

I can't kill to protect

[Bejarden he/him]

On 4/13/2021 at 4:35 PM, hskeeter said:

Lots of good suggestions and logic behind them.  I do have a the feeling the 5th ideal is the definitive statement of how the Knight interpret their own role in the order.  I also believe honor needs to be tied into it somewhere.  Here is my current guess.

"I will teach people to protect themselves and others with honor and integrity."

There also has to be some measure of growth involved. It’s a journey after all. 
He has been training people since WoK and is a Highmarshal of the Urithiru forces.

 

21 hours ago, daypast17 said:

I can't kill to protect

Why woudnt he be able to? It’s war

[rock soup]

They are the closest to Honor of the Radiants.

So they have protect others, protect even an enemy if its right, and protect "myself".

So why not keep it simple and true to what they stand for.

 

"I will protect life with Honor"

[Szeth_Pancakes he/him]

Unless I’m badly mistaken, we only know two 5th Ideals at this point. The Lightweavers’, of course, is to speak one last truth about themselves, and the Skybreakers’ is “I am the law.” Since we haven’t actually seen a Lightweaver speak the final ideal, we don’t know if there’s a theme to what their “final truth” has to be. Taking a little leap of faith, I would think that this truth would be something simple, but powerful. In Shallan’s case, this might be along the lines of “I am enough.” (Now that I say this, I can’t imagine that Shallan’s final ideal will be anything other than this). Leading back to the Windrunners, I think their final ideal is probably something brief that embodies what their order is at heart, like the Skybreakers being dedicated to the law, or the Lightweavers being dedicated to truth. Some ideas might be “I am Honor,” “I will protect” (maybe that’s a little too close to the first ideal?), etc.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Szeth_Pancakes
Spelling!

[daypast17]

Why woudnt he be able to? It’s war

I have three reasons I think

1) the previous oathes have all been one of Leren's lessons

2) it is an idea Kal has stated over and over not understanding (why is ok to kill the parashendi to protect dalinar who are just prorectkng there home)

3) the only 5th oath we know anything of (skybreaker)  seems almost a contridition its 2, 3, and 4 and the 5th oath is almost never reached

So what has leren tried to teach kaladin that is almost a contradiction of the prior oathes and would take a level of understanding almost none reach

I can not kill to protect

Edited April 20, 2021 by daypast17

[Bejarden he/him]

But why would that makes sense.

It is okay to kill sometimes, it’s a direct attack on protecting if you limit yourself in your ability to defend.

Kaladin already accepted that he has to kill. And had a minor plot arc telling his father that he’s wrong and it’s okay to kill to protect.

It wouldn’t make sense for his major leap to be against his character arc. 
The 3rd and 4th were things that he had trouble with. Things he knew he should do but we’re to hard for him to say. 
This would be something he believes is wrong.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 4/18/2021 at 10:58 AM, Szeth_Pancakes said:

Since we haven’t actually seen a Lightweaver speak the final ideal, we don’t know if there’s a theme to what their “final truth” has to be.

I'd assume there's something of a pattern to the truths, based on this WoB:

Quote

coltonx9

What would Elhokar's Fifth Truth be?

Brandon Sanderson

...Oh, Elhokar's last Truth? He would have had to have been on a long journey before he could even get to that. It would probably be-- I'm going to RAFO that now, because I think it would tell you too much about the way I'm thinking for the way the Truths work. I could probably tell you that now, but I will choose not to. Let's just say it would involve kind of a journey that starts kind of-- negative is the wrong term. Being more aware of himself and then coming to a deeper awareness of himself that is perhaps not-- that leaves him in a good place.

coltonx9

Could you tell me what his First Truth would have been?

Brandon Sanderson

It would have been to admit the thing that he knows, which is that he's a bad king.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

I'm working on a larger post speculating on the Ideals in general, but as part of it: I think this indicates the Lightweavers may have some pattern. Imo, the Lightweaver Ideals, based on Shallan, would very loosely be along the lines of:

1. LBD, SBW, JBD
2. Truth you know but are ignoring
   • Shallan lives her life terrified, but puts on a face and pretends she's not, she's aware of it but ignores it
   • Shallan knows she killed her dad, and never really fully repressed that it was the case, but tries not to think about it
   • Elhokar knows he's a bad king, but hasn't yet internalized as something he needs to work on
3. Truth you have buried and denied
   • Shallan had mostly gotten herself to believe that Lin had killed her mother, though there's definitely times this mask slips and she references the true events. But it's far deeper buried than the others.
4. Major mistake and regret you have refused to admit
   • Shallan killed Testament. She regrets it, it didn't need to happen, she screwed up royally and felt horrible about it when she realized what she had truly done, but then rather than owning up to it, she pretended it didn't happen.
5. (Speculation) Awareness of your flaws, but acceptance that it's okay to still be growing and changing
   • This seems to be the core of Shallan's character arc. With every truth, she's terrified of admitting it, because she thinks she will hate herself, her friends will hate her, Pattern will hate her, Adolin will hate her, etc. Accepting that she's not perfect, but that it's okay, is what she clearly is building towards.
   • It also sounds good as the final goal of the order about "I will find my own truth". The ultimate truth about yourself, that a lot of people have trouble truly facing, but especially the people who the Cryptics would normally be attracted to. That you're flawed, yes, but also that it's okay to be flawed and to be changing.
   • It also fits as a theme of the Stormlight Archive in general. Dalinar has sworn a similar Ideal, Kaladin's Fourth involved this kind of concept, etc. Even beyond Stormlight, rebirth and second chances are some of the most core themes to the Cosmere overall. The order having accepting that as their true goal, but flavored more specifically towards finding themselves? Makes perfect sense imo.

Now, as I said, this would be a loose pattern. I don't believe in the Ideals being as strict as some seem to believe, and I feel any structure is more just an attempt to figure out how the journey works on average and boil that down. Individual Radiants may go through the realizations in a different order (though probably still five Ideals total), but this is the way most people will naturally gravitate towards, just because it matches a more organic journey.

Edit: forgot to mention it, but yes, I'm assuming that "I'm terrified" was not to Pattern, because evidence seems to support that strongly to me (I hate the implications of it, but it feels very clear to me now). But if that assumption is wrong, this no longer holds.

Edited April 21, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Forms of mind]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:06 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

There also has to be some measure of growth involved. It’s a journey after all. 
He has been training people since WoK and is a Highmarshal of the Urithiru forces.

 

Why woudnt he be able to? It’s war

I agree kaladin has had trouble fighting to protect others. in book 2 kaladin doesn't want to fight listeners. book 3 kaladin doesn't want to fight singers. kaladin asks sill about the oaths when escaping singers in book 3. he asks why he has to fight to protect. Kaladin at end of book 4 has had trouble fighting. My guess

I will fight to protect until I can find a better way

[Aeshdan he/him]

I'm torn between "I will not protect others from the trials they need to grow strong" and Factfinder's suggestion of "I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself". I feel like either one could make a logical capstone for the Windrunner ideals we have seen.

[Lightdancer]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:58 AM, TheOneKEA said:

Here's my guess at Kaladin's Fifth Ideal:

"I will accept that others can protect themselves."

As far as foreshadowing for this goes, we have a lot. This isn't even all of it:

Kaladin struggles with the idea that "Bridge 4" as it once was no longer exists.

As someone mentioned above, he questions Tien for going out with the other spearmen.

He's always had a... let's say "possessiveness." Especially in the Way of Kings, he refers to Bridge Four as "they're my men" (emphasis mine). Now, that's not all bad- Bridge Four kind of needed someone to take ownership and leadership of them, and Kaladin has always strived to help them. But he does have a tendency to accumulate little groups of people whom he struggles to let go: spearmen, slaves, bridgemen, Singers, wall guards, space-whales... I digress.

I think there's a lot of foreshadowing for a Fifth oath related to giving people agency. I don't think this is a huge flaw in Kaladin (at least not to the extent that it could be), but I would like to see him acknowledge that other people have agency for their choices and actions, and it's not all his fault. He's already begun to acknowledge this by ROW, but an Oath might be a nice way to tie that up.

[Jofwu he/him]

I could see a few other directions, but the intuitive fifth oath to me is "I will protect myself".

I think the oath has to be something that's HARD for a 4th level Windrunner to say. A lot of the ideas being thrown out are cool, but I don't see Kaladin having a hard time saying them. On the other hand, this really is the last big lesson that Kaladin needs to learn. He gives and gives and gives. The man needs to learn that he has limits. He needs to accept that, especially after the 4th oath, sometimes I needs to not just accept that he can't save everyone. Sometimes he has to choose saving himself over trying to save everyone.

My guess is that we'll see a big confrontation with Kaladin and Moash that ends with Kaladin having a choice. Save Moash at great personal risk, or let the guy go. And he'll opt for the latter. Something to that effect anyways. I can see it play out a few different ways.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Jofwu said:

I could see a few other directions, but the intuitive fifth oath to me is "I will protect myself".

I think the oath has to be something that's HARD for a 4th level Windrunner to say. A lot of the ideas being thrown out are cool, but I don't see Kaladin having a hard time saying them. On the other hand, this really is the last big lesson that Kaladin needs to learn. He gives and gives and gives. The man needs to learn that he has limits. He needs to accept that, especially after the 4th oath, sometimes I needs to not just accept that he can't save everyone. Sometimes he has to choose saving himself over trying to save everyone.

My guess is that we'll see a big confrontation with Kaladin and Moash that ends with Kaladin having a choice. Save Moash at great personal risk, or let the guy go. And he'll opt for the latter. Something to that effect anyways. I can see it play out a few different ways.

My problem with this is it runs exactly contrary to self sacrifice.

[Bejarden he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

My problem with this is it runs exactly contrary to self sacrifice.

Yes this is what I’ve always said to this idea

It directly contradicts the fundamentals of the order, that you are meant to protect

It’s ok to always want to sacrifice, friends are supposed to be there to stop you from overreaching, which is what happens

”I will let myself be protected” is a better choice in my opinion

And I personally think the 5th Oath will be something completely different 

[Jofwu he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

My problem with this is it runs exactly contrary to self sacrifice.

The fundamental value of the Windrunners is protecting people, not self sacrifice.

You can't be good at protecting people (or even just helping people in general) if you don't know how to take care of yourself. Which is precisely Kaladin's biggest issue.

The point of "I will protect myself" (as I mean it) isn't to say that they will always lookout for themselves above all else, if that's not clear. It could very well have more words tacked on, just like "I will protect those I hate" includes a "so long as it is right" for Kaladin. The Windrunner oaths don't build on on another, such that the later ones are somehow more important or whatever.

The idea is simply that he needs to recognize when it's time to pause and take care of himself. You can't keep going and going and going and going nonstop. Kaladin is a mess. He's drowning in PTSD and survivor's guilt because he keeps pushing and pushing to do everything he can to protect every last person he can. He's a workaholic. And it's killing him. It's the reason he's in such a bad place now. It's the reason he lost Tarah. (putting less value on his relationship with her than on his drive to be a good soldier, so he can protect his men)

I'm not saying he can't NEVER sacrifice himself for people. But the man needs to learn that it's okay to take care of himself once in a while.

[Bejarden he/him]

8 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I'm not saying he can't NEVER sacrifice himself for people. But the man needs to learn that it's okay to take care of himself once in a while.

He already sometimes does this

He realizes Dalinar is right about him and feels better when he starts taking care of himself 

It wouldn’t be a hard Oath to say “I will protect myself...sometimes, maybe, perhaps if it’s convenient”

 

[Jofwu he/him]

2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It wouldn’t be a hard Oath to say “I will protect myself...sometimes, maybe, perhaps if it’s convenient”

I can barely think of any instances where Kaladin takes care of himself without essentially being ordered to do so. And even most of those is with a mindset of "if I push myself too hard I won't be there for my men when they need me", which isn't the most healthy state of mind.

I'm not saying that he doesn't recognize this is an issue. But I don't think it would be EASY for him to swear that he will do a better job paying attention to his own health and actively take steps to protect himself when he needs it.

Would it be as hard for him to swear as the 4th ideal was? No. But I'm not expecting the 5th to be as hard as the 4th for Kaladin. The journey to the 4th oath had two whole books of setup, with a major moment devoted to it. His 5th oath is going to be one exciting moment buried among many.

[Bejarden he/him]

8 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I can barely think of any instances where Kaladin takes care of himself without essentially being ordered to do so. And even most of those is with a mindset of "if I push myself too hard I won't be there for my men when they need me", which isn't the most healthy state of mind.

I'm not saying that he doesn't recognize this is an issue. But I don't think it would be EASY for him to swear that he will do a better job paying attention to his own health and actively take steps to protect himself when he needs it.

Would it be as hard for him to swear as the 4th ideal was? No. But I'm not expecting the 5th to be as hard as the 4th for Kaladin. The journey to the 4th oath had two whole books of setup, with a major moment devoted to it. His 5th oath is going to be one exciting moment buried among many.

I don’t see why this would be so climactic that something Kaladin has already accepted is true, )that he has a problem with himself and needs to work on it,) is the last step to his climactic journey

He already knows this no matter if it took someone tell him it to figure it out

[Jofwu he/him]

13 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t see why this would be so climactic that something Kaladin has already accepted is true

I don't see this matters at all.

He knew what he needed to say for the 4th before he said it, if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, there was NOTHING mysterious about the 1st Idea. The third was really the only one where the very idea of the Ideal was a shocking revelation to Kaladin.

The epicness of Kaladin's Ideals isn't usually a matter of us being excited for him to discover something new. It's about the emotion of him committing to something that's difficult for him.... And even more important than that is just the epic circumstances that he speaks them in. There's nothing particularly memorable about the words of "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". That's what he was doing the entire book. Doesn't mean Kaladin jumping across a chasm solo to fight Parshendi wasn't memorable.

[Bejarden he/him]

2 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I don't see this matters at all.

He knew what he needed to say for the 4th before he said it, if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, there was NOTHING mysterious about the 1st Idea. The third was really the only one where the very idea of the Ideal was a shocking revelation to Kaladin.

The epicness of Kaladin's Ideals isn't usually a matter of us being excited for him to discover something new. It's about the emotion of him committing to something that's difficult for him.... And even more important than that is just the epic circumstances that he speaks them in. There's nothing particularly memorable about the words of "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves". That's what he was doing the entire book. Doesn't mean Kaladin jumping across a chasm solo to fight Parshendi wasn't memorable.

The second oath for the Windrunners  isn’t hard it’s something true about that person

The rest was something that Kaladin didn’t want to admit or didn’t know

He knows that he should protect himself

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Just an idea, but maybe the 5th oath is at its heart a conservative one. Maybe it is "I will protect the status quo." (queue the chorus of boos and onslaught of rotten vegetables, I'm ready for them). 

[Bejarden he/him]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:08 PM, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Just an idea, but maybe the 5th oath is at its heart a conservative one. Maybe it is "I will protect the status quo." (queue the chorus of boos and onslaught of rotten vegetables, I'm ready for them). 

I’m not quite understanding what your getting at here

Do  you mean that he should make sure that nothing ever changes?

 

[Procrastination she/her]

I think that maybe it'll be about knowing when to let people protect and help themselves. Kaladin can't stand people in Bridge Four to get hurt, and he is incredibly protective of them, even though they can protect themselves. Maybe "I will allow others to protect themselves"??

Also, I'm really hoping that by swearing the Fifth Ideal, Kaladin gets a Ryshadium. That would be hilarious. 

Ooh! Maybe it's " I will protect myself so I can continue to protect others"!

Edited May 18, 2021 by rosharian_cat

[Bejarden he/him]

1 hour ago, rosharian_cat said:

I think that maybe it'll be about knowing when to let people protect and help themselves. Kaladin can't stand people in Bridge Four to get hurt, and he is incredibly protective of them, even though they can protect themselves. Maybe "I will allow others to protect themselves"??

My problem with this one is that there isn’t a problem with wanting to protect people when their going to war

Its a good thing to want to protect