[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

[Master Silver]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:07 PM, Hmmmmmm said:

I think that it will be something along the lines of " I will not kill to protect" as that seems to be a struggle he faces over and over again

Maybe, but I think even if that was the case, the ugliness of the (real) world, lead us to acknowledge that Soldiers are necessary, unless we would all be slaves. I could see it being the opposite, and maybe that is how Moash dies. If I must kill to protect, so be it. 

[chunkman]

Kaladin speaks the 3rd ideal "I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right", but he doesn't define what is "right". In fact, not knowing who is "right" or "wrong" is an underlying theme for Kaladin throughout the books. He has long discussions with Syl on the topic and mostly Kaladin follow's Syl's lead, even though she says she doesn't know who is right and who is wrong. She just "feels" it.  Is it right to kill Parshmen? Is it right to kill a friend? It is a basic moral issue and Kaladin must resolve it in order to fully achieve the highest status as Knight Radiant, similar to the Skybreakers' need to define the law.  As others have said, Kaladin needs to have a leadership oath. Therefore I think the 5th ideal for Kaladin will be "I will take the responsibility to define what is right and what is wrong".

[The curious traveler]

it would be hilarious if Brandon actually read these and was going to put one in the fifth book 

but here's my idea 

it will probably have something to do with knowing when to ask for help because we know that he has been struggling with this for the entire series and like said above its probably more internal then we are expecting.

[Letryx13]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:24 AM, chunkman said:

Kaladin speaks the 3rd ideal "I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right", but he doesn't define what is "right". In fact, not knowing who is "right" or "wrong" is an underlying theme for Kaladin throughout the books. He has long discussions with Syl on the topic and mostly Kaladin follow's Syl's lead, even though she says she doesn't know who is right and who is wrong. She just "feels" it.  Is it right to kill Parshmen? Is it right to kill a friend? It is a basic moral issue and Kaladin must resolve it in order to fully achieve the highest status as Knight Radiant, similar to the Skybreakers' need to define the law.  As others have said, Kaladin needs to have a leadership oath. Therefore I think the 5th ideal for Kaladin will be "I will take the responsibility to define what is right and what is wrong".

The problem with that is that it's themed more about taking responsibility, not protecting. That seems more in line with a BondSmith ideal than a Windrunner's.

The only thing I've read that feels anything close right for Kaladin's fifth ideal is to let people protect themselves, if they can.  It came up in RoW, when Kaladin's inner monologue was that the hardest thing for him to do was nothing. This was when Leshwi was dueling, and defeating, Sigzil.  I'm not sure if this is the best idea for his fifth ideal, but it's the best I've seen.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

5 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

The problem with that is that it's themed more about taking responsibility, not protecting. That seems more in line with a BondSmith ideal than a Windrunner's.

The only thing I've read that feels anything close right for Kaladin's fifth ideal is to let people protect themselves, if they can.  It came up in RoW, when Kaladin's inner monologue was that the hardest thing for him to do was nothing. This was when Leshwi was dueling, and defeating, Sigzil.  I'm not sure if this is the best idea for his fifth ideal, but it's the best I've seen.

This could be spun slightly more around delegation - as a leader you can't do everything yourself, and in military type org some of that means you may be actively ordering troops into a situation where some will not come back, to protect others. And the divine attributes for their order are Leadership/Protection - first 3 ideals are more about protecting but it makes sense the last couple could start being about balancing this with being able to lead. The 4th ideal is a start on this path but 5th ideal could further it. The situation you gave with Sigzil is a great example I think.

[Letryx13]

31 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

This could be spun slightly more around delegation - as a leader you can't do everything yourself, and in military type org some of that means you may be actively ordering troops into a situation where some will not come back, to protect others. And the divine attributes for their order are Leadership/Protection - first 3 ideals are more about protecting but it makes sense the last couple could start being about balancing this with being able to lead. The 4th ideal is a start on this path but 5th ideal could further it. The situation you gave with Sigzil is a great example I think.

That seems even more like a BondSmith ideal. Except it's more about giving up power than delegation. It's been brought up several times, by Sadeas, Amarama, Wit, and even Jasnah, that Dalinar has trouble letting go of power.  I'd bet money that giving up power under the right circumstances is the fourth or fifth BondSmith ideal.

But I suppose they're not dissimilar.  If I had to guess, the wording will be something like, "I will not interfere, when I am not needed." 

[Spearguy]

I think it will be something about how some people don't deserve to be saved

[ConfusedCow]

We have been focused on Kaladin's strengths.  Perhaps Kaladin's weaknesses are more relevant.  Kaladin's depression is about giving up, choosing not to live, not to care, not to feel.  Maybe the fifth ideal is about choosing to live for his friends rather than die for them.  

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

We have been focused on Kaladin's strengths.  Perhaps Kaladin's weaknesses are more relevant.  Kaladin's depression is about giving up, choosing not to live, not to care, not to feel.  Maybe the fifth ideal is about choosing to live for his friends rather than die for them.  

I've heard that one too, somewhere.  That the WindRunner needs to remember to protect themselves too.  This one also seems like a serviceable fifth ideal.

8 hours ago, Spearguy said:

I think it will be something about how some people don't deserve to be saved

That seems like a stretch, considering the third ideal.

[Tglassy]

I thought the fourth ideal would have been "I will let those who can protect themselves do so."  Kaladin's so focused on protecting people who don't need protecting.  He hyper focused on Bridge 4, even after they became Windrunners.  Like, the second oath is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."  That no longer includes Bridge 4.  And it NEVER included Dalinar.  But those are who he hyperfocuses on.  

So I'm still thinking this will be one of the ideals.  It's a necessary clarification, and it solves all his problems.  He's already accepted there are some people he can't save.  Now he just needs to realize that sometimes people can protect themselves.

[GlowingChamaeleon]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:36 PM, ftl said:

Well, I'm going to guess that the fifth oath is something Kaladin is going to swear in the next book. The fourth oath was pretty straightforwardly what he'd been struggling against for most of the last two books, so it's not a surprise, but how tough it's been for him means that we probably have missed the foreshadowing of the fifth oath. I think we HAD to have some foreshadowing of the fifth oath, because giving Kaladin a totally new thing to struggle against would feel weird if we haven't had inkings of it before.

It might be something to do with his new work helping people with their mental health. That got just a few chapters in this book - enough to show that it was important, but not enough to say that that storyline is complete.

Hmm.  think the fifth oath is going to be something about how you have to protect the whole person - mind, body, and spirit. Most of the protecting that Kaladin has done personally has been about preventing people from being stabbed - understandable, because they're in a war. But more abstract things like protecting a person's independence, protecting their spirit, are still there.

Maybe it'll build on the fourth oath. The fourth oath was only about acceptance, knowing that a Windrunner can't protect everyone. But the fifth might be when he recognizes that some things are more important to protect against than bodily harm. I still think there's more realizations to be had there. Yeah, Kaladin is now accepting that sometimes, he'll fail and not protect someone. But there's a step further - times when Kaladin could step in and protect someone from physical damage, but shouldn't, because protecting that person's autonomy or integrity or honor or something else is also important.

I love this considering that most of the book he’ll be with Szeth. Arguably the character with some of the worst spiritual scars to heal. He may need to be protected from even worst that he could witness in Shinovar.

[Highmarshal Stormface]

I'm thinking something like:

"I will protect myself so that I can protect others" 

[therunner he/him]

Taking inspiration from Skybreakers 5th Ideal ( ~"I am law") i would propose something along the lines of "I will empower others to protect themselves" with the following reasoning.

For Skybreakers, it seems they want do the right lawful thing, but don't trust themselves, so they use laws and systems as a crutch to make the 'right' decisions. The Oath are themed around that, dedicating to follow law, to specific goals etc. But the higher oath give more and more space for Skybreaker to interpret it as well. In this view, the 5th oath requires Skybreaker to trust in themselves and in what they understand to be lawful and right.

For Windrunners, they want to help and protect others (and themselves), but can often struggle with prejudices and their own needs. The Oaths are about realizing those blindspots and working past them, 3rd Oath about protecting without difference, both anyone (Kaladin, Teft) and from anything (Lopen), 4th about balancing own needs and protection (Kaladin and his need to realize he cannot protect everyone).
Then I would expect 5th to be the final step, the acknowledgement that others can protect themselves and he can help them do that, that Windrunner can let go sometimes and trust others to do what they need themselves.

It would also help towards developing the second attribute of Jezrien, Leading, just like 5th Ideal of Skybreakers requires them to be Confident.

Edited December 26, 2022 by therunner

[Marabout]

Kaladin will shout “I will become protection!”

Then turn into a giant condom.

[Benedictify]

Kaladin's Fifth Ideal will be "I will never give up."

There will be a new Oathpact, created by Ishar and/or Dalinar. Kaladin will take it onto himself alone, like Taln. He will go to Braize to be tortured, at least til Book 6, if not longer. 

He is "The Spear That Would Not Break", to quote him during the fight with Amaram in Oathbringer, and he will be the new "Bearer of Agonies," as Taln was.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Benedictify

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, Benedictify said:

Kaladin's Fifth Ideal will be "I will never give up."

There will be a new Oathpact, created by Ishar and/or Dalinar. Kaladin will take it onto himself alone, like Taln. He will go to Braize to be tortured, at least til Book 6, if not longer. 

He is "The Spear That Would Not Break", to quote him during the fight with Amaram in Oathbringer, and he will be the new "Bearer of Agonies," as Taln was.

This is my 2nd favourite book 5 ending for Kaladin. Obviously by the end of the second half, I want him to be able to leave the oathpact, but this would be a great ending for Kal in book 5. Imagine, the guy who struggles with the pain that life deals him and does not want to live ends up choosing a life of torment for the sake of others.... I get chills just thinking about it.

Edited January 27, 2023 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Elder]

A couple Factors that go in to determining what the 5th ideal might be:

1. Jezrien was the Herald the Windrunners were patterned after.  The Herald of Kings.    A King’s role is to protect his people.  I suppose that’s what you could argue makes for an honorable king.  Something tying protection to leadership wouldn’t go amiss. Granted we’ve only had maybe 4 glimpses of the man, half of which he was a drunken mad man, so it’s hard to really get much of a profile on him.

2.  Kaladin’s story arc should lead him to the next ideal.  The question is, where’s that arc going?  He’s not leading Bridge 4 or the Windrunners.  He’s teaming up with Szeth.  We haven’t seen very much interaction between the two since Kaladin killed Szeth.

what we might be seeing here is exploring the differences between Honor Spren and High Spren, between Law and Protection, Adhesion vs Division, etc.  Where they intersect, where they do not.  Something that certainly has some real world ramifications that Brandon may be interested in exploring.

Then I have my theory that Kaladin is going to have a showdown with Moash via visions.  Not sure how or if that meshes with the rest.

I haven’t reached any conclusions yet.  I’m not sure if I want to or not.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:58 AM, TheOneKEA said:

Here's my guess at Kaladin's Fifth Ideal:

"I will accept that others can protect themselves."

I like this one or a variation. I think the oath might be something like “I will protect, even if I must sacrifice that which I hold dear”. He wouldn’t sacrifice his life, as that would mean every Windrunner would die upon swearing the last ideal. Rather, he might have to give up the spear, learn ways of peace, since he started to do that in RoW, where he realized there were many ways to protect.  

[Vin(Diesel)]

Perhaps the fifth ideal will be related to Kaladin becoming a Herald and getting sent to Braize to be tortured forever: I will protect others, no matter what the cost.

 

Like the third ideal, it would be a removal of implicit exceptions to the second ideal.

[Kendelian he/him]

My brother has a theory on this. His theory is that it will be the Windrunner accepting the need to be protected

[Fyodor32768]

So I suspect that it's going to be something along the lines of protecting even those who are his enemies, or eschewing killing to protect.Something that like becoming law, is larger than the frame of his previous oaths, that maybe positions him in a fundamentally different way than people who have only sworn earlier oaths.

There has been an ongoing theme of him not wanting to hurt parshmen, questioning the logic of killing to protect, or recognizing that his enemies are also protecting from their own perspective. As well as his fights with his father about killing to protect. So I think that it's going to be something that touches on those issues. Something that moves him outside the frame of killing some people to save others.

I don't think it's going to be something a long the lines of protecting himself or allowing himself to be protected-that's too close to what we've seen with Teft and his third oath.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Fyodor32768
more blabbing to do

[Letryx13]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:27 AM, Kendelian said:

My brother has a theory on this. His theory is that it will be the Windrunner accepting the need to be protected

That's actually a pretty good one.  Accepting help or being willing to let others protect themselves are the two most likely possibilities, I think.

1 hour ago, Fyodor32768 said:

So I suspect that it's going to be something along the lines of protecting even those who are his enemies, or eschewing killing to protect.Something that like becoming law, is larger than the frame of his previous oaths, that maybe positions him in a fundamentally different way than people who have only sworn earlier oaths.

There has been an ongoing theme of him not wanting to hurt parshmen, questioning the logic of killing to protect, or recognizing that his enemies are also protecting from their own perspective. As well as his fights with his father about killing to protect. So I think that it's going to be something that touches on those issues. Something that moves him outside the frame of killing some people to save others.

I don't think it's going to be something a long the lines of protecting himself or allowing himself to be protected-that's too close to what we've seen with Teft and his third oath.

Protecting enemies would probably fall under the third ideal, and Kaladin already has the mindset not to kill more than he needs to.  He's let singers and even fuzed go before when they weren't a threat any longer.  

Teft's third ideal was about protecting people he hated too, it just included an acknowledgement that he hated himself more than anyone. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Letryx13
Misspelling

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

I skimmed through the last 5 pages, so if someone else has said before now, I agree with them.

My thought is that the 5th Windrunner Ideal will be:

"I will show all how to protect themselves and others"

If Skybreakers become the law, then I would think that Windrunners would, by example, show others how to protect, body, soul, and mind. Of themselves and those around them. To work towards healing and peace, not strife and war. The main reason Kaladin struggled with his latest oath was
 

Spoiler

because he came to love the Singers as he loves his comrades. He saw that there wasn't a reason for the war, and that there could be peace.

 

[Nogo]

I skimmed a whole buncha different ideas getting here.  I thought some of them were tremendous.   One of the things I wanted to keep in the forefront when considering this question is "what did the radiants swear millennia ago?"    Above were a lot of discussions about Kaladin doing Kaladin things... and yes all ideals are modified by the swearer to reflect their own image.  However, I think we should keep history in mind when dealing with this question.

First, as mentioned quite a bit above, Windrunners were created in the image of Jezerien.  The King guy.  Leader dude.  Top Dog.  Best human ever.  Yeah, that guy.  I know the Bondsmiths led the radiants (or maybe I assume that based on readings...) but Jezerien led the Heralds.  So presumably, at the 5th ideal, there is a huge leadership jump for 5th ideal Windrunners (presumably small in number) to correlate to Bondsmiths in a manner similar to Jezerien and Ishar's relationship.  Maybe I'm stretching though.  Idk.

Second, I think we have to assume that the 5th Ideal is not merely a continuation of promotion but a great leap.  I get the feeling from the Skybreakers that 5th Ideal Knights are rare... like maybe a couple in a generation rare.  However, once again, this is just a feeling and I have no evidence that this is true or applies to Windrunners at all.  Jasnah hasn't been particularly forthcoming about her "leveling up" but I don't think she's 5th ideal.  I Imagine that pisses her off something fierce too.   Anyways, I'm rambling off topic.  I think 5th Ideal is going to be something very profound and not specifically obtainable.

Lastly, I think that the 5th ideal will have to do with battle / war / leading troops.  Windrunners seem to have been the "green ajah" of the Knights Radiant.  They were the infantryman, the tip of the spear, the teeth of the dragon.   The 5th ideal windrunners are going to have to be not only top dog individual soliders, but also kickass leaders and be able to lead combined arms (or dare I even say joint) coalition armies against the enemy.  Him joining Szeth for the mission in Shinovar (I can't wait for that btw, like omg PLEASE come on!!!!) is definitely a combined arms thing especially as the Skybreakers historically were rival to the Windrunners and currently mostly enemies. 

OK, so sorry, I'm creative like a rock... so here goes.... "I will lead all who are willing to protect even if we are not on the same team."

Yes, I know.  I am NOT a wordsmith.  But think of the implications and references in that statement... 

[Weaver of Lies he/him]

I think it could be “I know that there are those who I must not protect.” I think this both covers that others can protect themselves and the fact that some people should not be saved.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Lightweaver2
Better word choice