Long Game 72: The Secret of Shinovar

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Just now, Quinn0928 said:

And again, if we make a habit of shifting our votes frequently or retracting them altogether, they become less meaningful, put less pressure on people, and are thus a less effective way of gauging reactions.

right right right I don't mean everyone collectively move, I mean- oh whatever no matter.

anyways I had something else to say but immediately forgot it. 

oh right-

Yeah you can be against a D1 vote but should still/can still vote. Idk it means less when you're like "oh this vote means nothing" things like that but ya know idk. 

[Eternum he/him]

3 minutes ago, Ooklil' the Wei said:

Also just saw your edit in the last post, but too lazy to switch pages.

Not sure if Araris means that we should retract votes (like someone suggested in another game i think) but that- Like, right now, we got a chain on connie, we got a reaction, then we could let the pressure off and pressure gears some more or something like that. 

Basically my thing about not poke voting and things like that but I haven't seen a single poke vote and i still wanna kill connie

You poked Fura and never tagged them, no? @Furamirionind, you got any time to chip in?

[Quintessential she/her]

1 minute ago, Ooklil' the Wei said:

right right right I don't mean everyone collectively move, I mean- oh whatever no matter.

anyways I had something else to say but immediately forgot it. 

oh right-

Yeah you can be against a D1 vote but should still/can still vote. Idk it means less when you're like "oh this vote means nothing" things like that but ya know idk. 

I think what you mean is that even if someone is village, has no information, and either has no strong reads or doesn't like to go off of reads, they should still vote because it makes it harder for the elims to manipulate or shift the lynch?

[---]

2 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

I think what you mean is that even if someone is village, has no information, and either has no strong reads or doesn't like to go off of reads, they should still vote because it makes it harder for the elims to manipulate or shift the lynch?

Sure take what I say to mean whatever maybe it means that you should go have a nice cup of orange juice prefferably without a fly

I'm too tired to think what I mean what I say I woke up at like 8 this morning for this game

I can be understand later. 

Maybe I'll wait a bit and then respond to people later I don't like having opinions

EDIT:

no wait I think I understand now. no that's what I was saying earlier. Idk what I was saying now. but that's not it. maybe it was though. I can just say it was

2 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

I think what you mean is that even if someone is village, has no information, and either has no strong reads or doesn't like to go off of reads, they should still vote because it makes it harder for the elims to manipulate or shift the lynch?

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ooklil' the Wei

[Condensation she/her]

12 minutes ago, Ooklil' the Wei said:

If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of chilling and having a bit of RP, and killing gears

I mean, if anyone wants to RP with me then I'll do it.

[Eternum he/him]

Just now, Quinn0928 said:

I think what you mean is that even if someone is village, has no information, and either has no strong reads or doesn't like to go off of reads, they should still vote because it makes it harder for the elims to manipulate or shift the lynch?

Caution is necessary. Just jumping on random trains is not a good idea, and a textbook elim strategy. Any vote needs to have reasoning, or at the very least intent, behind it to actually matter because if you're going to be swayed easily, what's the point? Not voting, however, tends to not be helpful. So do what feels right, but be vocal about it. The more people talk about their thoughts and intentions, the more information we can get, obviously.

2 minutes ago, Ooklil' the Wei said:

Sure take what I say to mean whatever maybe it means that you should go have a nice cup of orange juice prefferably without a fly

I'm too tired to think what I mean what I say I woke up at like 8 this morning for this game

I can be understand later. 

Maybe I'll wait a bit and then respond to people later I don't like having opinions

Maybe rest a little and then come back to the thread? That's probably gonna help with comprehensiveness

[---]

Just now, Eternum said:

Maybe rest a little and then come back to the thread? That's probably gonna help with comprehensiveness

Ya know maybe I'm just an Elim trying to be purposefully misunderstood to throw people off

Also Poke votes are usually my main discussion point without people poke voting I have nothing to complain about how

[Quintessential she/her]

Just now, Eternum said:

Caution is necessary. Just jumping on random trains is not a good idea, and a textbook elim strategy. Any vote needs to have reasoning, or at the very least intent, behind it to actually matter because if you're going to be swayed easily, what's the point? Not voting, however, tends to not be helpful. So do what feels right, but be vocal about it. The more people talk about their thoughts and intentions, the more information we can get, obviously.

Yes, that's (more or less) what I meant. Even if we do end up lynching a villager, having more people contributing means we have more to go off of for reads, and it means that the elims can't as easily sway the lynch the way they want it to go. 

[Condensation she/her]

No? No one wants to RP? Okay then.

[Flyingbooks]

Just now, Ookla the Grammatical said:

No? No one wants to RP? Okay then.

I'd like to RP later today, when I have more time.

[Alvron he/him]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Grammatical said:

Actually, whenever I've played with Gears it's really helpful to me since I'm a fairly new player. I enjoy seeing their thoughts about everything, even if sometimes I don't agree with them. I also think it's kind of unfair to vote someone because they were doing something they do every time and likely trying to help.

Personally, I like the big Gears posts at start of the game.  It reveals a lot about them and can really help the village.  Sure it can help the elims too but they already get a Doc to plan in and in my experience in being evil, most of the time the elims come up with similar or better ideas than the village so a post like Gears doesn't hurt the village too much.

Keep it up Gears.

3 hours ago, TJ Shade said:

Village read on Devotary and Illwei. Also leaning village on Araris and Books.

Leaning not-village on Alvron, Connie, Gears, Danex

A village read on Devotary D1?  Generally when that happens, Devotary turns out evil.  I'll be watching this.

So neutral or evil read on me?  Yeah, that's not going to change.   I almost always give off neutral vibes, it's why I'm the Lord of Shadows.

1 hour ago, STINK said:

Wait we still do discussions on D1 lynches?

Yes and we should never stop doing them.  SE is constantly changing and evolving so coming back to topics of discussion that affect every game is always a good idea as it helps to invoke change.  Peoples opinions also change over time and those that are against D1 lynches might switch to being in favour of them later down the line and vice versa.   There's more to it than just that but there's already been 11 new posts just while I've been writing to this point.  Basically rehashing old discussions is a good thing as new players will have different viewpoints and opinions and we should all respect that and let them have their say without coming down on them just because we do things differently at this point in time.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Araris Valerian said:

I would say that using role speculation as the primary reason for a vote is generally bad, since we have a bunch of trolls for GMs. But otherwise I would say that it can be helpful when trying to solve the game. 

Indeed.  Having players give their role distributions can be very helpful.  Once an elim is found and if they gave a distribution it can be useful seeing what they 'guess' compared to what has been revealed.  The differences or similarities can be quite telling.


There was another post I was going to quote about not slowly reading the rules before a game starts but I guess I didn't push the button.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Personally, I almost never read the rules in depth before the start of a game.  I tend to do a lot of reading so going through the rules with a fine-toothed comb and planning before I even know what side I'm on really doesn't help as I still have to go over the rules again and then go through any clarifications that have turned up.

[danex he/him]

I can get behind a D1 Connie lynch. I agree, it seems like she is acting a bit different from previous games. As someone who’s tunneled on Connie before, (sry about that btw) I don’t think she’s being anywhere near as defensive as she usually is.

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1 minute ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I can get behind a D1 Connie lynch. I agree, it seems like she is acting a bit different from previous games. As someone who’s tunneled on Connie before, (sry about that btw) I don’t think she’s being anywhere near as defensive as she usually is.

://

Also yeah quinn you have over twice as many posts as Matrim huh kinda odd

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ooklil' the Wei

[Quintessential she/her]

4 minutes ago, Alvron said:

   There's more to it than just that but there's already been 11 new posts just while I've been writing to this point. 

Oooooof I'm sorry this is probably slightly my fault. I'm bored so I've been replying to every post.

[danex he/him]

Also, I’ve thought a bit more about the 2 secret roles and the tiny hints we maybe have about them, and I think The Strangler is Vasher. We have precedence for having characters be roles with Kal and Szeth, and it fits with the guard being strangled in the RP. Vasher has been known to fight with awakened rope.

I bet his WinCon is something like “have control of Nightblood” for a certain amount of time. Or maybe die as the bearer of Nightblood. Or kill a certain person or faction with Nightblood. 

Edit: This doesn’t really affect the game in any way, as it’s impossible to verify, I’m mainly just speculating so that if I’m right I can say that I called it 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ookla the Disproportionate

[Quintessential she/her]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Also, I’ve thought a bit more about the 2 secret roles and the tiny hints we maybe have about them, and I think The Strangler is Vasher. We have precedence for having characters be roles with Kal and Szeth, and it fits with the guard being strangled in the RP. Vasher has been known to fight with awakened rope.

I bet his WinCon is something like “have control of Nightblood” for a certain amount of time. Or maybe die as the bearer of Nightblood. Or kill a certain person or faction with Nightblood. 

Hmmm theoretically, the Vanisher could be Jasnah? Soulcasting people into smoke again or whatever? Idk that's a pretty tenuous conclusion to draw, but she's the only one I can think of who's killed someone and not left anything behind.

[Alvron he/him]

9 minutes ago, Quinn0928 said:

Yes, that's (more or less) what I meant. Even if we do end up lynching a villager, having more people contributing means we have more to go off of for reads, and it means that the elims can't as easily sway the lynch the way they want it to go. 

I disagree with this.  Generally, when there are games that encourage voting or there are lots of votes for other reasons *cough* Contribution Crusade *cough*, the elims tend to win as it's easier for them to hide among the votes and you would be surprised how easy it is to sway the lynch when there's more voters as that gives you a bigger pool of votes to turn and you only need so many before others start to bandwagon.  Admittedly the same can be said about there being very few votes as it allows the elims to control the lynch and we don't want that but  I would much rather have people vote if they want to vote rather than forcing them to as it can discourage people from playing.  And yes, for some players telling them to vote can be seen as forceful as it makes them uncomfortable and less likely to play again as they can't play their way without people telling them to do it the "correct" way.

[Mat he/him]

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I can get behind a D1 Connie lynch. I agree, it seems like she is acting a bit different from previous games. As someone who’s tunneled on Connie before, (sry about that btw) I don’t think she’s being anywhere near as defensive as she usually is.

Connie Danex, subject to change later.

I'm off to play some Minecraft and then I will be unavailable for a bit, so don't expect any large posts from me until this evening.

Random notes:

• I like Alv's posts. Edit: This doesn’t equal village read though.
• Quinn, replying to every post cause I'm bored is exactly how I started an got an active reputation. Not a bad thing, but I've stopped cause it's not summer anymore and I actually have a schedule  

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ookla's Dice

[Quintessential she/her]

1 minute ago, Alvron said:

I disagree with this.  Generally, when there are games that encourage voting or there are lots of votes for other reasons *cough* Contribution Crusade *cough*, the elims tend to win as it's easier for them to hide among the votes and you would be surprised how easy it is to sway the lynch when there's more voters as that gives you a bigger pool of votes to turn and you only need so many before others start to bandwagon.  Admittedly the same can be said about there being very few votes as it allows the elims to control the lynch and we don't want that but  I would much rather have people vote if they want to vote rather than forcing them to as it can discourage people from playing.  And yes, for some players telling them to vote can be seen as forceful as it makes them uncomfortable and less likely to play again as they can't play their way without people telling them to do it the "correct" way.

Hmmm that's a fair point. So I guess... yeah, just vote if you want to, but whether you vote or not, provide reasoning for it?

[Flyingbooks]

3 minutes ago, Alvron said:

I disagree with this.  Generally, when there are games that encourage voting or there are lots of votes for other reasons *cough* Contribution Crusade *cough*, the elims tend to win as it's easier for them to hide among the votes and you would be surprised how easy it is to sway the lynch when there's more voters as that gives you a bigger pool of votes to turn and you only need so many before others start to bandwagon.  Admittedly the same can be said about there being very few votes as it allows the elims to control the lynch and we don't want that but  I would much rather have people vote if they want to vote rather than forcing them to as it can discourage people from playing.  And yes, for some players telling them to vote can be seen as forceful as it makes them uncomfortable and less likely to play again as they can't play their way without people telling them to do it the "correct" way.

As I said before, a good way to stop the elims from controlling the lynch too much, either by leading bandwagons or being the only ones to vote, would be to have everybody explain their reasoning for why they voted for someone or didn't vote.

Edit: sort of ninja'd

Edited December 5, 2020 by Flyingbooks42

[Furamirionind]

4 pages already? Seems I didn't know what I was signing up for. Well, I'll do my best to get as much through the thread as possible.

18 hours ago, Gears said:

Vedel: Abrasion and Progression. Given that I’ve asked Chanarach to do PMs, telling you to do PMs as well seems a bit extra. Solution: Chanarach, do PMs N1. Vedel, do PMs N2. That way, we have continual PMs for a while, without necessary coordination. While that happens, try to find each other so you can coordinate. Protect the ones who seem like they will be brutally murdered in the dead of night.

I would be cautious of this. Short of a mass roleclaim there wont be an easy way to find roles reliably. A player could try to reach out to everyone in PMs and try to get people's roles, but unless you know a sizeable amount, there's not a good way to know if the person you're talking to is lying or not. 

18 hours ago, Gears said:

Pailiah: Progression and Illumination. While Progression is a powerful tool, I value Illumination more, unless you are certain that someone will be killed.

I'll have to look through your past games to be sure. I'm getting elim vibes, and this quote is one of several that makes suspect that. a 1/20ish chance of saving someone isn't amazing, but also using assumptions about the elim team through past kills and likely kills, it isn't quite that bad a percentage I think in successfully protecting. Personally I think we leave that choice up to the owners of the blades, but I personally value Progression more. 2 people with progression is a powerful thing, assuming both are in village hands.

I also disagree about your take on Transformation. That's personally my favorite surge : P

17 hours ago, Ookla's Dice said:

He said he's not claiming anymore as he's now been an elim. And he has, in my MR that just concluded. I don't see anything in there where he claimed.

With this and what Araris said I'm now a bit less suspicious of Gears. I read his elim claim part as a kind of gleeful joke about how this time he did get elim, which feels a little too meta for a villager to make, but if I'm missing context I accept that.

17 hours ago, Ookla the Hypodecadal said:

I'm pretty sure the elims can start with Honorblades, or at least there's nothing that says they can't, so Chanarach and Vedel finding each other doesn't necessarily mean they're both village.

I'd be fairly confident the elims didn't start with Chanarach’s blade for balance reasons, but beyond that I'd agree.

Ok, now we're up to 5 pages.......... Alright then

6 hours ago, Quinn0928 said:

I agree with most of that plan except for voting Gears off lol There isn't a reason to, and while obviously there's no reason not to (that we know of) that's equally true of everyone else (except for me, because obviously I'm not gonna vote myself off). 

Pretty hard defending Gears here. Another player I need to look into the history of I guess. I think this is sus because of what I bolded... but again, need to look at past games.

5 hours ago, Ookla's Dice said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Reads:

• SfS, Books: Slight Village
• Quinn, STINK, Araris: Null Village
• Danex, Illwei, Alvron, Devotary, Gears, TJ: Null
• Connie, Experience: Null Elim

On first read of this I liked it. Thought it was generally accurate based on what we have seen in thread... However it also doesn't provide anything new. It puts both Connie and Experience as slight elim, but both of them have been called out already and this is providing no individual perspective... I'm not too sus on this yet but I'ma keep my eye on Dice.

3 hours ago, Quinn0928 said:

Hopefully if the elims do have that honorblade, they'll decide PMs are important for them as well... I mean, you can use them to gain info no matter what your alignment is.

You seem very confident about what the elims will think and do... PMs don't always benifit every faction equally. It depends on a lot of factors... One of which is who is on the elim team.

3 hours ago, Ookla the Grammatical said:

People are saying they didn't read the rules. This is kind of suspicious to me, why wouldn't you read the rules slowly and carefully if you know you'll be joining and playing? In my thinking, this seems like a valid excuse to them for not posting. So far, Gears has shown the (second) most knowledge about the rules/roles and Mat and Illwei have said that they need to reread the rules. These are also the only two people who replied to my "Be more cautious in voting" post, although the "in voting" was implied. Mat is reading Illwei as Null. This is just me shoving a bunch of random data together, in case you couldn't tell.

So... here you are putting suspicion on Illwei and yourself... Not sure if that's intentional or not. xD
Also keep in mind irl stuff is a thing. I for instance have very much read the rules, I don't remember everything or have a great understanding of possible ways to abuse the rules, which complicated games typically have to some extent. Good points overall though.

Whole post reads villager for me.

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The more I'm reading of the thread the more villager-y Illwei seems and the elim-y Grammatical seems.

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As a side note, the Truthless may benifit from not being overly helpful to the thread to avoid the elim kill. Now that I've said that they might change their mind, but it's worth mentioning. 

I got pinged a little bit ago. Probably about how I havent posted yet? Thank you Eturnum... it seems someone poked me so I'll post this now, and hopefully complete the thread later today.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

4 hours ago, Ooklil' the Wei said:

I- I would hope so, but I wouldn't be so sure of that. I mean,, They probbaly will, but in LG67 I had the ability to open PMs or heal someone, and I only opened PMs once. Worst case scenario the Elims have Chan-Charana-Chararana- uh, that honorblade, the one with Division and Abrasion, and PMs might not get opened for quite a bit.

I know I was the one who said Chanarach and Vedel don't have to be village, but I sincerely doubt the elims will start with a Blade that gives them two extra kills every three cycles. Nightblood already gives the elims kills N4 and N7, they don't need more than that.

2 hours ago, Quinn0928 said:

I'm not assuming the village has all of them, especially since Ash declined to confirm whether we do or not. Also, as soon as a Bearer dies there's a chance that an elim has one, regardless of whether the elims started off with one or not. Also, Kaladin can claim to have Ishar's Blade and use a vote-change demonstrate/gain legitimacy (like SfS did with Danex in MR46). 

However, regardless of that, the elims will be able to coordinate their surges, and if the village wants to stand a chance against them we'll likely have to do the same to some extent. It's a risk, but it's one we sort of have to take at some point. I do think that the Stone Shaman should avoid claiming unless it's either necessary or almost certain that the person they're claiming to is village.

The Stone Shaman. Or possibly secrets.

Kaladin can't claim Ishar's Blade unless he has another one, and in general people can't falseclaim Blades because the Stone Shaman will know they're lying. Sometimes villagers lie about such things to draw elim kills, but if someone falseclaims a Blade and then attempts to prove it in that way it would be worthwhile for the Shaman to send someone a message saying they'd heard X was lying.

The secrets roles are not village, but they also don't stop the village from winning.

[+Lotus she/her]

I finished the rough draft of my novel!

Game wise, I don’t have many thoughts...

I’m reading STINK and Somebody from Sel as more village-y, maybe Gears too. Other then that, nothing.

[---]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Hypodecadal said:

The secrets roles are not village, but they also don't stop the village from winning.

Hm? Why aren't they village then?

[Condensation she/her]

9 minutes ago, Flyingbooks42 said:

I'd like to RP later today, when I have more time.

Sweet! Let me know when. I might not be on, but we'll get to it eventually.

7 minutes ago, Alvron said:

There was another post I was going to quote about not slowly reading the rules before a game starts but I guess I didn't push the button.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Personally, I almost never read the rules in depth before the start of a game.  I tend to do a lot of reading so going through the rules with a fine-toothed comb and planning before I even know what side I'm on really doesn't help as I still have to go over the rules again and then go through any clarifications that have turned up.

Maybe not before the game starts, but certainly once you know what you are! I like to be careful, and it's good to know what the opposing side can do.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I can get behind a D1 Connie lynch. I agree, it seems like she is acting a bit different from previous games. As someone who’s tunneled on Connie before, (sry about that btw) I don’t think she’s being anywhere near as defensive as she usually is.

Think about it. Those last times, I had an important role. I'm not important this time, I'm just a villager. I'd still like to keep from dying, but it's not really all that vital. First game I was a Hemalurgist, second game I was Convincing(Mat knew), and third game I was an RBer who knew the other RBer. Even if I had an Honorblade, it would more likely than not get passed to a villager.