MONARCH Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 One of Moash's best qualities: He'll die one day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trav Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 On 29.11.2020 at 6:10 PM, Toaster Retribution said: Moash may be reprehensible sorry no. Moash is the most realistic character in the book. he never did anything wrong and fought the good fight when no one else would. a self sacrificing gleeming ray of hope for the ultimate good to prevail. 10/Moash would have switched sides too. not his fault the god of hatred is backing the legitimate owners of Roshar. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AonEne he/him in an enby way Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 2:18 PM, Nymeros said: What do you relate with? Also, how do you feel about him killing Elhokar quickly and efficiently with no undue fuss but then dragging out Navani's death and taunting her? How does that make sense to his new emotionally dead state? Ditto for trash talking Teft. I haven't finished the book yet, so I can't speak for those events, but I did like the quick kill of Elhokar. No drawing it out. The sentiment, mostly. Killing Elhokar makes sense. I wouldn't have done it, but I'd have wanted to, and likely would have wished for his death, maybe even helped Graves. I also get the giving up your pain thing. That sounds delightful, if only I didn't lose all my other emotions too. On 12/2/2020 at 8:20 AM, trav said: sorry no. Moash is the most realistic character in the book. he never did anything wrong and fought the good fight when no one else would. a self sacrificing gleeming ray of hope for the ultimate good to prevail. 10/Moash would have switched sides too. not his fault the god of hatred is backing the legitimate owners of Roshar. ...I agree that he's realistic, but that's, uh. A take. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Iron Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 I'd also like to bring up on the side of Moash that he is also very realistic / reasonable, speaking of the points where he says "No, you can't kill Kaladin. Like, you physically actually cannot because the man is freakin' unkillable or something. I dunno." 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 Taravangian, Raboneil, Leshwi, Venli, Mraize... For Honor's sake villains should at least be dignified! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirNoSell Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 On 30/11/2020 at 7:41 PM, Toaster Retribution said: And also, Nale is up there as well, given that he appeared before Mraize did in WoR. Funny, I kind of see Nale as more of an anti-hero. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted December 9, 2020 Report Share Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Nale killed more Radiants than we'll ever know. Raboniel manipulated Navani into creating a way to kill Radiant spren Rayse pushed Dalinar to slaughter an entire city, among other slaughters. Ulim used Venli to bring Odium's storm and troops back from Braize. Moash has killed 3 or 4 people, at least one of which was just an old guy he killed with a knife that the Fused gave him. And in his spare time he does menial labor and obsesses about Kaladin. Then a big tower spren turned a light on so he flew as fast as he could into the side of a hill and went blind. Yeah. Cool villain bro Edited December 9, 2020 by Leuthie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 23 hours ago, Ookla the Knight said: I'd also like to bring up on the side of Moash that he is also very realistic / reasonable, speaking of the points where he says "No, you can't kill Kaladin. Like, you physically actually cannot because the man is freakin' unkillable or something. I dunno." Moash knows plot armor when he sees it. 5 hours ago, BrightLord Swageas said: Funny, I kind of see Nale as more of an anti-hero. I agree: Nale isn't really a villain. I'm using villain kind of interchangeably with antagonist on this thread, which is pretty sloppy of me, but yeah. But yes, I would indentify Nale as an anti-villain, and an antagonist (except in OB, in which he is more a supporting character/mentor for Szeth). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/2/2020 at 2:47 AM, Bigmikey357 said: I think ultimately Rabonial will have the highest kill count and was more effective at villainy than Moash. At the end of the day he only kills 2 immortal beings. Rabonial and her research has the potential to kill thousands. Just a bit of nitpicking, but all of the anti-Light kills belong to Navani. Or maybe El, if they end up being responsible for its widespread manufacture. Or to the people that actually employ the weapon. Raboniel's culpability is actually rather minor, if integral--she shared information, nothing more. (Granted, she would have done far more had she lived.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 Navani never pursues this line of research without Rabonial. She's the driving force behind all Navani's success. She gives Navani critical information that leads toward the antilight discoveries. And she ensures that this information is distributed to both sides of the conflict. Navani does most of the work, designs and conducts the experiments, the Voice of Lights certainly has a share in the kill count. But without the Lady of Pain/Wishes there is no discovery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 I do wonder what effect killing Teft will have on Moash moving forward. I don’t think killing Elhokar really would leave as big of an effect on him after what happened to his grandparents. He gave into hatred in order to get revenge, but Elhokar is still someone he always wanted to die. But Teft? I feel like that one is going to dig at him terribly, even more so than what we’ve already seen. If his conscience was eating at him after what he did to Elhokar, the Teft murder is going to grip him at a whole other level imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 7:37 PM, Ookla the Intimidating said: I haven't finished the book yet, so I can't speak for those events, but I did like the quick kill of Elhokar. No drawing it out. The sentiment, mostly. Killing Elhokar makes sense. I wouldn't have done it, but I'd have wanted to, and likely would have wished for his death, maybe even helped Graves. I also get the giving up your pain thing. That sounds delightful, if only I didn't lose all my other emotions too. ...I agree that he's realistic, but that's, uh. A take. No Moash is great. In my initial post I specifically separated him from Vyre for a reason. Vyre is the Odium servant who gives his passion to Odium. I find him very poorly written and waste of a complex character. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 (edited) On 11/30/2020 at 0:43 AM, kaellok said: Don't forget that Moash is directly responsible for Kaladin swearing the 3rd Ideal, and indirectly responsible for the 4th. We should give zero credit for 'almost', though, unless we give 'almost' to the others as well. Rayse--almost turned Dalinar to be his Champion, and also almost turned Kaladin. He also almost didn't die. Sadeas--almost killed Kaladin dozens of times, almost killed Dalinar and Adolin, convinced almost enough Highprinces to not try to stop the Everstorm to ensure an easy win for Odium. Amaram--almost didn't get used up and spit out by every faction that would have him. Mraize--almost convinced Shallan to become a mindless assassin. Moash--almost had a family in Bridge 4, until he threw it all away. Thank you! These villains have done a lot to mess with our protagonist, and Moash is clearly most effective against Kal because of how he understands him, we haven't seen him in any other situation to say how masterful he would be in just regular combat. And I know with this book a lot of us are going to be like "Rayse was pretty lame" but I'd like to remind you he got everyone to this point, he was able to start the final desolation and nearly outmaneuvered all of them if Daliner didn't resist. That one hitch in his plan was what set him off the tracks and possibly started his unraveling, where it's made clear the power and Rayse were starting to be at odds. All villains are intimidating when they're in control, and they all tend to lose it once a hitch gets in the way of that plan they've been carefully crafting for so long. On 11/30/2020 at 1:18 PM, Nymeros said: What do you relate with? Also, how do you feel about him killing Elhokar quickly and efficiently with no undue fuss but then dragging out Navani's death and taunting her? How does that make sense to his new emotionally dead state? Ditto for trash talking Teft. On 12/1/2020 at 3:11 AM, Friendshipspren said: Oh yeah raboniel stopped him too. Hmmm yeah but still it is wierd he didn't kill raboniel straight out. I mean he's emotionless and shouldn't care about her. One good swipe and she would be dead. He has surges too. He could have just lashed himself towards navani , dragging raboniel behind or slipping off her . Huh ? The song paralysis I can understand but not killing raboniel or using surges on her is wierd Although perhaps he didn't want to kill a good tool and an important figure too. Heh. Reason he could not kill Navani- Raboniel stopped him for as long as she could, Rhythm of anti hurt him, and then she became a Radiant and safe from harm even against the honorable and was in a tower that wanted him dead. Reason he could not kill Raboniel- Remember, even weakened, she is still an incredibly tall and strong Fused, she surprised him and probably had him in a tight grapple, where his weapon wasn't as useful/convenient and she would make sure he couldn't get a good swing, she might have voidlight still in her (She was just about to work on the tower) and therefore resist his lashings. 6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: Moash knows plot armor when he sees it. I was just about to say that, he knows better than to try and kill a main character like kal fo twp reasons. Plot armor will let the storming man come back to life like Wax did in BoM, and two, if he does kill Kal, he knows the audience will want him dead more than ever and there is no chance at changing sides. And you don't go against the audience. He can pray to the audience, but they will not answer. Edited December 10, 2020 by Aspiring Writer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 8:22 PM, Karger said: Taravangian, Raboneil, Leshwi, Venli, Mraize... For Honor's sake villains should at least be dignified! Kelsier would disagree, being quite comfortable with his immaturity. Villains should be mysterious, enigmatic, charismatic and stylish. And have cool titles that people actually use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NysemePtem he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 Up until this book, I agreed completely. But Vyre has been a major disappointment. His obsession with Kaladin is bizarre, inexplicable and only grows more so with the book. His most satisfying moments should be with Kaladin, but instead Kaladin fights the Pursuer (who I also don't like) and Moash gets a moment with Navani. It's pretty cool admittedly, but I'd be ok with this being his exit from the series. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle she/her Posted December 10, 2020 Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/2/2020 at 9:46 AM, MONARCH said: One of Moash's best qualities: He'll die one day. Unless he becomes a human Fused and comes back. Again and again and again. Sweet dreams! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted December 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Necessary Ookla said: Unless he becomes a human Fused and comes back. Again and again and again. Sweet dreams! In that scenario he would die multiple days. Which, for some members of the fandom, would be very appreciated. Edited December 10, 2020 by Toaster Retribution 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 21 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said: Thank you! These villains have done a lot to mess with our protagonist, and Moash is clearly most effective against Kal because of how he understands him, we haven't seen him in any other situation to say how masterful he would be in just regular combat. And I know with this book a lot of us are going to be like "Rayse was pretty lame" but I'd like to remind you he got everyone to this point, he was able to start the final desolation and nearly outmaneuvered all of them if Daliner didn't resist. That one hitch in his plan was what set him off the tracks and possibly started his unraveling, where it's made clear the power and Rayse were starting to be at odds. All villains are intimidating when they're in control, and they all tend to lose it once a hitch gets in the way of that plan they've been carefully crafting for so long. Reason he could not kill Navani- Raboniel stopped him for as long as she could, Rhythm of anti hurt him, and then she became a Radiant and safe from harm even against the honorable and was in a tower that wanted him dead. Reason he could not kill Raboniel- Remember, even weakened, she is still an incredibly tall and strong Fused, she surprised him and probably had him in a tight grapple, where his weapon wasn't as useful/convenient and she would make sure he couldn't get a good swing, she might have voidlight still in her (She was just about to work on the tower) and therefore resist his lashings. I was just about to say that, he knows better than to try and kill a main character like kal fo twp reasons. Plot armor will let the storming man come back to life like Wax did in BoM, and two, if he does kill Kal, he knows the audience will want him dead more than ever and there is no chance at changing sides. And you don't go against the audience. He can pray to the audience, but they will not answer. Nah Vyre wasted time taunting and slow walking at NAvani trying to make her fear unlike with Elokhar who he killed quickly and efficiently. It's one reason why I consider him poorly written. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Nymeros said: Nah Vyre wasted time taunting and slow walking at NAvani trying to make her fear unlike with Elokhar who he killed quickly and efficiently. It's one reason why I consider him poorly written. He was making his way toward her before he was attacked. He wasn't slow walking. And remeber, he saw Elhakor in the middle of a full scale battle where it very possible he might die. It is very possible he would have spoken with elhakor before killing him if he could. Navani was defensless and dying, and again, he was attacked by a Fused, a weakened one yes, but still a fused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameOfGroans Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said: He was making his way toward her before he was attacked. He wasn't slow walking. And remeber, he saw Elhakor in the middle of a full scale battle where it very possible he might die. It is very possible he would have spoken with elhakor before killing him if he could. Navani was defensless and dying, and again, he was attacked by a Fused, a weakened one yes, but still a fused. Yet even after he frees himself of Raboniel's grip, Navani still gets 2 pages or so to chat and sing with the Sibling, which in normal circumstances would take at least 5 minutes, and probably much more. But then, Brandon does like to stretch every dramatic scene as long as he possibly can, and then some more. Time must be even more relative in the cosmere than over here. Edited December 11, 2020 by GameOfGroans 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 1 minute ago, GameOfGroans said: Yet even after he frees himself of Raboniel's grip, Navani still gets a couple of pages to chat and sing with the Sibling, which in normal circumstances would take at least 5 minutes, and probably much more. But then, Brandon does like to stretch every dramatic scene as long as he possibly can, and then some more. Time must be even more relative in the cosmere than over here. You forget the Rhythms she was singing brings him pain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameOfGroans Posted December 11, 2020 Report Share Posted December 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said: You forget the Rhythms she was singing brings him pain. OK, then a bit less but still plenty of time for Moash to get her before that and after he is free of Raboniel. Maybe one page instead of two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymeros Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said: He was making his way toward her before he was attacked. He wasn't slow walking. And remeber, he saw Elhakor in the middle of a full scale battle where it very possible he might die. It is very possible he would have spoken with elhakor before killing him if he could. Navani was defensless and dying, and again, he was attacked by a Fused, a weakened one yes, but still a fused. Nah, he was acting like a slasher villain dragging his blade and lying through his teeth for no reason: She glanced over her shoulder. Moash continued walking, an inevitable motion. Not rushed. His sword—with its elegant curve—held to the side so it left a small cut in the floor beside him. “Lighteyes,” Moash said. “Lying eyes. Rulers who fail to rule. Your son was a coward at the end, Queen. He begged me for his life, crying. Appropriate that he should die as he lived.” “But you know what?” Moash said, standing over him. “There was always a part of me that resented how you were so eager to follow him. Right from the start, his little axehound. Licking his feet. He could have tried to speak to Elokhar.....but he didn't. No taunts or threats or triumphant statements. He killed him quickly and efficiently. Not sure why being emotionless makes Vyre want to taunt and cause emotional pain. It's pretty ridiculous and why I feel he was poorly written. On 12/10/2020 at 11:42 AM, NysemePtem said: Up until this book, I agreed completely. But Vyre has been a major disappointment. His obsession with Kaladin is bizarre, inexplicable and only grows more so with the book. His most satisfying moments should be with Kaladin, but instead Kaladin fights the Pursuer (who I also don't like) and Moash gets a moment with Navani. It's pretty cool admittedly, but I'd be ok with this being his exit from the series. True facts Edited December 12, 2020 by Nymeros 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 3 hours ago, Nymeros said: He could have tried to speak to Elokhar.....but he didn't. No taunts or threats or triumphant statements. He killed him quickly and efficiently. Not sure why being emotionless makes Vyre want to taunt and cause emotional pain. It's pretty ridiculous and why I feel he was poorly written. He wasn't exactly alone with Elohkar. There was a full-scale battle going on. If he tried talking to Elhokar, someone would have probably atacked him. hell, Kal might've recovered once he realized what moash was doing. Navani was wounded and alone. It's a false equivalence to compare the two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted December 12, 2020 Report Share Posted December 12, 2020 52 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said: He wasn't exactly alone with Elohkar. There was a full-scale battle going on. If he tried talking to Elhokar, someone would have probably atacked him. hell, Kal might've recovered once he realized what moash was doing. Navani was wounded and alone. It's a false equivalence to compare the two. In one situation Moash is supposedly acting without emotion. In the other, he blatantly isn't. This is an inconsistency for a character that has supposedly 'given away' his emotion to a godlike being. However, I think that it is another instance that clearly shows there are limitations on that 'gift', where Moash's true character shines through--he wants vengeance for petty and selfish reasons, because he is a petty and selfish man. Read again through every scene that has Moash in it from WoR on. Every action has, at its core, "I am right to think that lighteyes are evil by definition, and humans deserve to be punished for obeying them." Even the aid that he provides to the Singers that were being punished for inadvertently helping Kaladin was rooted in this--he didn't help them because it was right to help them, he did so because he did not want to see the Singers acting like human lighteyes; and if Singers were to be no different than humans, then maybe that is a character trait that is learned, and so Moash's hatred is misplaced. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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