Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[BenduLuke he/him]

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Double Steel is crazy powerful, yes. The one question though is that with Stormlight healing + live Shardplate the Steel Compounder might have real trouble doing any actual damage (we don't see sonic booms in the books, so coins are likely subsonic; I am not sure they would be able to crack shardplate).

If they have to stab the same spot (knife through eye hole or whatever) a ton of times, that might 'slow them down' enough to get Shardbladed.

I don't see the

Maybe I am missing something, but I can't see what bronze will do here... Seeking Allomancy and wakefulness?

Another Twinborn that could be very effective vs Radiants IMO is Allomantic chromium (to Leech Stormlight) / Feruchemical gold (to survive a few Shardblade hits - assuming enough is stored up) or maybe Allomantic chromium/Feruchemical steel (to hit the Radiant before they can use the Blade - but the Leeching itself might take too much time).

Who says a coin shot has to push coins. Vin was throwing horseshoes, Kolos blades, and Kel used all kinds of metal items in his fight with the Inquisitors. In addition even coins traveling fast enough (velocity compensates for mass) would have massive impact. Remember a steel compounder could add his momentum to any projectiles he pushes. The only limit to the metal a coinshot could push directly is aluminum, and titanium spikes would be devastating and even aluminum alloy could be pushed if it were attached to some other metal.

Chromium with Steel for the speed to attack might work better than gold. A soulbearer leecher could potentially wipe whole armies of Radiant of Stormlight by tapping their allomantic wipe. It has also been stated that while under the influence of a Leecher a Radiant cannot summon their Plate or Blade if they don't already have it. Of course aluminum alloy weapons could be just as devastating to Radiants as Chromium since Aluminum nullifies all invested powers like healing and stormlight.

A bronze twin would have near unlimited wakefulness or awareness so would be difficult to surprise while ready to attack at any time whenever the Radiants were sleeping or very tired. They would also be aware of the specific Rythms to design weapons and defenses to use against Radiants. So given time and resources they could mount devastating attacks at unanticipated times and not needing to sleep they could work on their attacks around the clock until they succeeded. They could potentially be the sleepless batman or iron man of Scadrial who over time wears the enemy down over a prolonged engagement and they would always know where the enemy is.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

23 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do you think it takes 16 years to make a metalborn? Vin was metalborn from birth but she needed someone to train her to progress as fast as she did. She had been subconciously burning pewter, brass, and zinc for years with an extremely limited supply of them. We really don't know when Vin could have had full use of her abilities since until she was 16 she only had access to trace elements. It appears that once a person snaps they have full use of their abilities depending on whether they have the metals, then it is only a matter of learning how to use them.

vin only used pewter and brass subconsciously, because she never was able to riot emotions before kelsier tested her

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Shob the Voidbringer said:

vin only used pewter and brass subconsciously, because she never was able to riot emotions before kelsier tested her

Could you explain more, you aren't making sense

[cometaryorbit]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Who says a coin shot has to push coins. Vin was throwing horseshoes, Kolos blades, and Kel used all kinds of metal items in his fight with the Inquisitors.

They don't have to use coins, of course, but I don't see evidence that they get enough force to break Shardplate regardless. The only thing I can think of leaning that way is Vin killing koloss with coins, and that might have depended on aim as much as raw force (plus Vin is kind of exceptional).

Quote

In addition even coins traveling fast enough (velocity compensates for mass) would have massive impact.

Sure, but if coins are subsonic (and if they're not, why no sonic booms?) they're pretty slow relative to modern bullets (though many early firearms, IIRC, were subsonic).

I think that coins at 300 m/s or so would be sufficient to be deadly against non- or lightly-armored humans if aimed well (and Allomancers can do other tricks with people in metal armor) but I think they'd just bounce off Shardplate (and might not be much use even against well-made mundane plate armor, which often was sufficient protection against 1400s-1500s firearms).

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Chromium with Steel for the speed to attack might work better than gold.

 

Possibly, but the question is how long the Leeching itself takes - I don't think Steel will speed up the process itself.

Quote

Of course aluminum alloy weapons could be just as devastating to Radiants as Chromium since Aluminum nullifies all invested powers like healing and stormlight.

Yeah, Scadrial has significant technological advantage here (until Navani gets fabrial-tech up to speed, anyway)... revolvers firing aluminum bullets could easily be deadly to Radiants.

Though I think you'd have to hit a vital spot - the stormlight healing wouldn't heal the wound while the bullet was in it, but I don't think it would "turn off" the ability to use stormlight in general. So an aluminum bullet in the right part of the brain would be fatal, but maybe not otherwise (Stormlight might even keep the body running even if e.g. the heart couldn't heal right).

[Shob the Voidbringer]

@BenduLuke said that vin was using brass, pewter and zinc subconsciously, but when kelsier told her to try and inflame his emotions, she thought it wasn't possible because she had never been able to before, because she hadn't had access to zinc before.

[BenduLuke he/him]

10 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

vin only used pewter and brass subconsciously, because she never was able to riot emotions before kelsier tested her

Rioting and soothing are so similar we can't be sure she didn't do both. Of course if she didn't riot anyone it would be because there was no zinc in the water and there was brass a source of brass. Of course she could have been rioting all along since it is more likely she had a source of zinc and not brass. apperantly besides pewter there were not sufficient metals for her to use other powers at the time.

 

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

They don't have to use coins, of course, but I don't see evidence that they get enough force to break Shardplate regardless. The only thing I can think of leaning that way is Vin killing koloss with coins, and that might have depended on aim as much as raw force (plus Vin is kind of exceptional).

Sure, but if coins are subsonic (and if they're not, why no sonic booms?) they're pretty slow relative to modern bullets (though many early firearms, IIRC, were subsonic).

I think that coins at 300 m/s or so would be sufficient to be deadly against non- or lightly-armored humans if aimed well (and Allomancers can do other tricks with people in metal armor) but I think they'd just bounce off Shardplate (and might not be much use even against well-made mundane plate armor, which often was sufficient protection against 1400s-1500s firearms).

Possibly, but the question is how long the Leeching itself takes - I don't think Steel will speed up the process itself.

Yeah, Scadrial has significant technological advantage here (until Navani gets fabrial-tech up to speed, anyway)... revolvers firing aluminum bullets could easily be deadly to Radiants.

Though I think you'd have to hit a vital spot - the stormlight healing wouldn't heal the wound while the bullet was in it, but I don't think it would "turn off" the ability to use stormlight in general. So an aluminum bullet in the right part of the brain would be fatal, but maybe not otherwise (Stormlight might even keep the body running even if e.g. the heart couldn't heal right).

Vin was throwing horses with her pushes, that is definitely sufficient force. A Steeltwin could add their velocity to their pushes making them even more effective. Shard plate has been damaged by boulders, rocks, spears, and hammers among other things so it is not invulnerable to impact. 

Steel would enable the leecher to get close to use their power in the blink of an eye thus get inside and out of the radiants defenses before they reacted.

Don't forget the potential aluminum grenades (guns = potential explosives as well), Gatling guns, and artillery shells. Where aluminum pierces healing doesn't work in that person that includes shardplate. Aluminum also disrupts bend bubbles and other external invested abilities in the area. It is the anti investiture metal like kryptonite to investiture.

 

4 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

@BenduLuke said that vin was using brass, pewter and zinc subconsciously, but when kelsier told her to try and inflame his emotions, she thought it wasn't possible because she had never been able to before, because she hadn't had access to zinc before.

Fair enough, but she could have done it and since Soothing and rioting produce essentially the same results she may have been consciously unaware that she was doing both.

Edited February 12, 2021 by BenduLuke

[cometaryorbit]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Vin was throwing horses with her pushes, that is definitely sufficient force. A Steeltwin could add their velocity to their pushes making them even more effective. Shard plate has been damaged by boulders, rocks, spears, and hammers among other things so it is not invulnerable to impact

I believe the "throwing horses" bit was with Duralumin, which a Steel Compounder wouldn't have access to.

A Steel Compounder could use their own momentum, yeah, but they are going to hit limits based on friction/air resistance - and I don't know that even if we make that coin 500 m/s rather than 300, it would break Shardplate.

(And I really don't think a Steel Compounder could function well in a fight with a 200 m/s wind in their face... it's potentially survivable, from airplane ejections, but...)

I actually think we might be overestimating what you can do with Feruchemical steel because of Bleeder in Shadows of Self - as a Kandra she might have been able to adapt her body to deal with this stuff better. I think a regular human would have serious trouble once you start getting into tornado-force wind speeds (relative to the 'static' air) which is pretty slow on this scale.

[BenduLuke he/him]

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

I believe the "throwing horses" bit was with Duralumin, which a Steel Compounder wouldn't have access to.

A Steel Compounder could use their own momentum, yeah, but they are going to hit limits based on friction/air resistance - and I don't know that even if we make that coin 500 m/s rather than 300, it would break Shardplate.

(And I really don't think a Steel Compounder could function well in a fight with a 200 m/s wind in their face... it's potentially survivable, from airplane ejections, but...)

I actually think we might be overestimating what you can do with Feruchemical steel because of Bleeder in Shadows of Self - as a Kandra she might have been able to adapt her body to deal with this stuff better. I think a regular human would have serious trouble once you start getting into tornado-force wind speeds (relative to the 'static' air) which is pretty slow on this scale.

The first limit I know for steelrunners is that they cannot achieve the speed of light. They can run fast enough to make friction and wind resistance an issue so could burn up. Inertia is not a problem for them so if they can find a way to mitigate the friction and wind resistance their speed and rate of acceleration is not a problem. They are also mentally able to handle the higher speeds. Goggles or a helmet with a face shield solves the wind in the face problem. There is also the potential that they can store their allomantic ability in the steel as well though Brandon has not explained how that might work only that reverse compounding is possible. (my term for compounding working in reverse but not presented yet). There are materials in 2nd gen Scadrial that could provide protection from the friction and wind resistance (coated or skin tight leather comes to mind, but there could be more).

In addition a steeltwin up close could land numerous allomantically powered strikes in a very small area and short time before a Radiant could respond then either push themselves away, potentially launching the Radiant into nearby things or both. There might also be the possibility that they could steel push the heat away from them as well toward their target though that might require some kind of conductivity and heat sink in the suit on which they have metal projectiles attached to carry it away or the heat might be carried along the blue lines to nearby metal when they push.

When you consider a Steeltwin think railgun, RPG, rapid fire guns with regards to their pushing abilities. Wax added to his projectiles velocity with his pushes and could curve them as well. He even found a way to push aluminum bullets. His steel pushed bullets traveled at comparable velocities to those he shot out of his guns. If he had been a steelrunner and transferred 10% of his velocity into a steel push on a bullet its penetrating power would be insane and depending on its composition its target would be a mess. In addition he would be able to do that over and over in rapid succession.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Fair enough, but she could have done it and since Soothing and rioting produce essentially the same results she may have been consciously unaware that she was doing both.

it's pushing and pulling. doing opposite things for the same effects, yes, but she would be aware of which she's doing. if you pull something one way, and then go to the other side and push the same direction, it will have the same result, but use different muscles, so you would know which you're doing. this is the same with rioting and soothing, you can produce similar effects, but what you do is opposite from the other. also, vin specifically was thinking about making people less angry and suspicious towards them.

[The Technovore he/him]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

His steel pushed bullets traveled at comparable velocities to those he shot out of his guns. If he had been a steelrunner and transferred 10% of his velocity into a steel push on a bullet its penetrating power would be insane and depending on its composition its target would be a mess. In addition he would be able to do that over and over in rapid succession.

mmmm... muzzle velocity in modern firearms hits about 1000-1200+ m/s. The speed of sound (which I'm going to say is a probably speed for a+f steel twinborn since I don't believe we've heard a twinborn make any kind of sonic boom?) hits at about 340 m/s. It's insanely fast for a human to move (0.25 miles per second) and makes them nigh unhittable, but this statement would be very false because even a full velocity boost only boosts the projectile speed by +340 m/s. That's a very fast bullet (far faster than average, would likely have decent penetration), but then a lot of other physics come into play as soon as the projectile stops being pushed. Considering that anti-piercing modern armor like kevlar can stand up to such speed in the real world already, and that spren-plate is likely going to be much more versatile and stronger than shardplate, this theory is a bit questionable

When I think a steeltwin, I think distraction and subversion tactics. I can see a steeltwin with some sort of Leeching fabrial draining a radiant, attacking them in the back whenever they're not looking, or sticking a coin against their chest and shoving, knocking them off balance just enough to get them killed. Like a more potent Leizan the Pursuer. If they don't kill you, something else will. Coinshots are threatening, especially highly trained ones that can "rapid fire", as you say, but having F-steel doesn't enhance that, other than making them into a coinshot you can't hit. If they could crack this "reverse compounding" that you're talking about, maybe it'd be a different story, but the fact is that the power levels you're talking about aren't even hinted at being possible without at least duralumin.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There might also be the possibility that they could steel push the heat away from them as well toward their target though that might require some kind of conductivity and heat sink in the suit on which they have metal projectiles attached to carry it away or the heat might be carried along the blue lines to nearby metal when they push.

...What? I love the enthusiasm you have for magical recombinations but this is not how steelpushing works. Like at all.

Edit: Okay, actually I can see what you're saying with the metal coins absorbing the heat and then being thrown away, but the blue lines bit, pretty sure that wouldn't work, because the pushing on external metal would only serve to meddle with the vectors of the steeltwin, not disperse the heat that's coming from the compressed air in front of them

Edited February 12, 2021 by The Technovore

[BenduLuke he/him]

20 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

it's pushing and pulling. doing opposite things for the same effects, yes, but she would be aware of which she's doing. if you pull something one way, and then go to the other side and push the same direction, it will have the same result, but use different muscles, so you would know which you're doing. this is the same with rioting and soothing, you can produce similar effects, but what you do is opposite from the other. also, vin specifically was thinking about making people less angry and suspicious towards them.

I think you misunderstand what I was referring to. A person could push on confidence while pulling on fear to strengthen their targets resolve. push trust and pull skepticism instead of just pulling skepticism. Vin was also trying to make people more trusting and more disinterested in her. Both soothing and rioting can produce the same effects they just do it differently.

18 hours ago, The Technovore said:

mmmm... muzzle velocity in modern firearms hits about 1000-1200+ m/s. The speed of sound (which I'm going to say is a probably speed for a+f steel twinborn since I don't believe we've heard a twinborn make any kind of sonic boom?) hits at about 340 m/s. It's insanely fast for a human to move (0.25 miles per second) and makes them nigh unhittable, but this statement would be very false because even a full velocity boost only boosts the projectile speed by +340 m/s. That's a very fast bullet (far faster than average, would likely have decent penetration), but then a lot of other physics come into play as soon as the projectile stops being pushed. Considering that anti-piercing modern armor like kevlar can stand up to such speed in the real world already, and that spren-plate is likely going to be much more versatile and stronger than shardplate, this theory is a bit questionable

When I think a steeltwin, I think distraction and subversion tactics. I can see a steeltwin with some sort of Leeching fabrial draining a radiant, attacking them in the back whenever they're not looking, or sticking a coin against their chest and shoving, knocking them off balance just enough to get them killed. Like a more potent Leizan the Pursuer. If they don't kill you, something else will. Coinshots are threatening, especially highly trained ones that can "rapid fire", as you say, but having F-steel doesn't enhance that, other than making them into a coinshot you can't hit. If they could crack this "reverse compounding" that you're talking about, maybe it'd be a different story, but the fact is that the power levels you're talking about aren't even hinted at being possible without at least duralumin.

 

...What? I love the enthusiasm you have for magical recombinations but this is not how steelpushing works. Like at all.

Edit: Okay, actually I can see what you're saying with the metal coins absorbing the heat and then being thrown away, but the blue lines bit, pretty sure that wouldn't work, because the pushing on external metal would only serve to meddle with the vectors of the steeltwin, not disperse the heat that's coming from the compressed air in front of them

First just so you don't think I am just making things up below is a snippit from the coppermind on compounding that I am refering to as reverse compounding:

Mechanics

While Compounding typically refers to Allomancy enhancing Feruchemy, there is most likely a way for Feruchemy to enhance Allomantic abilities as well.

One of the weaknesses to steel pushing is a persons mass, if you push hard enough on a coin it will push you back. That weakness can be countered by momentum of a person moving toward their target. Their greater momentum acts as if they have greater mass which in turn enables stronger pushes. A steelrunner in motion can unleash much stronger pushes. That means they can push much heavier items or lighter items much faster. A steelrunner moving at the speed of sound could push a sledge hammer object faster than sound away from them. Do the math. A 200 lb man moving at 775 mph pushes a 10 lb hammer away from himself sacrificing 10% of his momentum would mean that the 10 lb hammer is moving at over 1500 mph. that would result in over 22,000 ftlbs/sec or 30,000 Nm/s of force at the moment of release and the man is still moving almost 700 mph. That force applied to an area about 4 in square could smash through almost anything. and the steel twin could do this over and over again.

Like I said think of forces comparable to Rail guns, or RPG's when thinking about Steel twin projectiles not just common fire arms. Imagine the heat from friction and air resistance of a metal object fired with that force by the time it hits its target. At 700+ MPH a steeltwin could get very close before pushing. Bullets pushed with that kind of momentum would have the same energy because they would be moving far faster but that energy would impact a much smaller space.

Even heat has some interaction with Ionization, gravity, and magnetism, so depending on the exact mechanics of steel pushes it could potentially be directed away from a coinshot of sufficient skill. That could even turn out as a resonance in the case of a Steel twin. I am not saying it would work that way, but it makes for a possible effect.

My contention over people saying that isn't how it works is that we haven't seen many twinborn combinations yet and only 2 compounders, TLR and Miles, so it could be how it works. Brandon certainly hasn't explained all the rules or interactions to his magic system yet. For that matter we only have a bare bones sketch of it and a lot of RAFO. I personally would find it flattering if he read some of my speculation and used it in future books both because it might be how he already imagines it works or feels that the speculation is a reasonable effect for the combinations within his rules.

[The Technovore he/him]

@BenduLuke That math checks out! Forgive me for forcing you to defend your points, but honestly, the explanation of the math here really illustrates the point fantastically. Assuming a SteelTwin can survive the Newton's Third Law consequences of that interaction, that'd be fantastic to read onscreen.

Your point about the twinborn combinations not being shown is very valid, and considering that there's other godmetals that would be in play in an inter-cosmere war, and all kinds of alloys that could come as a result of that, and the fact that godmetals alloy with each other--folks have calculated from 1000 to 15k possible metal powers, counting that each alloy will have different effects based on whether they're being used Allomantically, Feruchemically, Hemalurgically, or in a Fabrial. So essentially, Sanderson could write whatever the storms he wants and can make it make sense too. So I'll stop contending on "that doesn't make sense", because there's no point in making you fight tooth and nail to defend your concepts when in the end Sanderson is likely going to find a way to make us all wrong anyway XD

Edited February 13, 2021 by The Technovore

[BenduLuke he/him]

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

@BenduLuke That math checks out! Forgive me for forcing you to defend your points, but honestly, the explanation of the math here really illustrates the point fantastically. Assuming a SteelTwin can survive the Newton's Third Law consequences of that interaction, that'd be fantastic to read onscreen.

Your point about the twinborn combinations not being shown is very valid, and considering that there's other godmetals that would be in play in an inter-cosmere war, and all kinds of alloys that could come as a result of that, and the fact that godmetals alloy with each other--folks have calculated from 1000 to 15k possible metal powers, counting that each alloy will have different effects based on whether they're being used Allomantically, Feruchemically, Hemalurgically, or in a Fabrial. So essentially, Sanderson could write whatever the storms he wants and can make it make sense too. So I'll stop contending on "that doesn't make sense", because there's no point in making you fight tooth and nail to defend your concepts when in the end Sanderson is likely going to find a way to make us all wrong anyway XD

I would say the limit to pushes like that would be the steel twins equipment or armor and the back force of the push. They have materials that could hold up under sonic speeds, and the transmission of that speed into a push from 775 mph or in other words a change of about 80 mph though strenuous is survivable and repeatable.

An Iron twin could have pulls that devastating if they could position their target between them and metal and because they themselves could become massive so as to be almost immoveable. In a limited distance I think they would have some ability to manipulate gravity effects just not like Radiants and only towards themselves. Any gravity effects they might produce would diminish by the square of the distance. twice the distance a quarter of the effect.

Oh according to the Coppermind and various Signing comments a Steelrunner can withstand the G's of near FTL movement.

Edited February 13, 2021 by BenduLuke

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:46 PM, BenduLuke said:

They can run fast enough to make friction and wind resistance an issue so could burn up.

I think they will hit other issues with the wind/friction long before burning up, though. Goggles, leather protective clothing, etc. will *help* - but there is a pretty huge difference between "being able to survive conditions while passively sitting down" (eg airplane ejection seat) and "being able to take demanding actions successfully while exposed to those conditions".

"Normally" a 100-120 mile per hour wind would be pretty much totally impairing for a human (IIRC that is about the limit at which you can't lean into the wind to successfully move against it, you will just be blown off your feet). Since the Steelrunner is in better control, the effective "wind" is created by their own movements, they can do better than that... but how much better? 200 mph? 300?

On 2/12/2021 at 2:46 PM, BenduLuke said:

If he had been a steelrunner and transferred 10% of his velocity into a steel push on a bullet its penetrating power would be insane and depending on its composition its target would be a mess.

I really don't think it would help that much. I am not sure what 1900-ish firearm muzzle velocities were like, probably not quite as good as modern ones, but if we're talking 600-800 m/s... even 300 mph is only 135 meters per second, that's a fairly "marginal" improvement.

[Gisaku75]

You don't need the power of a modern anti-tank rifle to penetrate a shardplate. Szeth manages to demolish a dead shardplate with a 20kg stone traveling at approximately 140ms. And Jasnah's living shardplate is damaged by a single hit from a fused. So the resistance between a live and a dead plate does not change much. what changes is the ability to auto repair.

A steelrunner or pewterman can achieve equal or greater results with high-mass subsonic bullets. Like a javelin or a steel ball the size of an orange. A coishot could replace copper coins with steel arrowheads, harder and more aerodynamic and with greater impact power, and then flare the metal. Considerably increasing the power of the bullet.

Vin during the siege of Luthadel kills a 12-foot Koloss by hitting it in the skull from about 30 meters. And I think he was just flaring his steel as he still uses the coinshot afterwards. Given the size of the Koloss, Vin's bullet has the same power as an elephant gun. that type of rifle was used during World War I by British snipers to pierce 10mm steel shields. And the live or dead Shardplates are not so resistant otherwise it would be impossible to scratch them.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Gisaku75

[ScadrianTank he/him]

One of the aspects that we haven't touched on much in this thread is fabrials. And I think that there is a possibility of Scadrian fabrials being more versatile than Rosharan ones, but having fewer effects and less power. It seems to me that too many Rosharan fabrials do the same things as conventional technology does, but use Stormlight instead of gears or electricity.

At the moment, I see Feruchemichal iron as having the most potential in terms of effects Scadrial can produce. It can be used in a multitude of areas, from construction to space exploration. The fact that F-Iron doesn't make the object weaker gives it incredible potential for use in warfare. Tanks that can move faster than their chassis would allow under normal circumstances and grow heavier to increase accuracy. Railguns can increase the barrel weight while firing projectiles much lighter than usual. Fighter jets can perform increasingly daring maneuvers without straining the pilot as much. 

Some effects also have the potential to be extremely powerful, but I doubt that they can work with machines. Feruchemichal brass and zinc come to mind, with Allomantic pewter and electrum coming close. If brass can reliably siphon extra heat from machinery, it would be very convenient. Similarly, if zinc worked with computers, Scadrian computers could be as fast as ours with much slower hardware. (This one seems less plausible than others for meta reasons since Brandon is already doing something very similar in the Cytoverse.) A-pewter can work like the Rosharan Augmenter fabrial. A-electrum could be used in vehicles as a safety measure, maybe? 

Edited February 15, 2021 by ScadrianTank

[Frustration he/him]

13 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

One of the aspects that we haven't touched on much in this thread is fabrials. And I think that there is a possibility of Scadrian fabrials being more versatile than Rosharan ones, but having fewer effects and less power. It seems to me that too many Rosharan fabrials do the same things as conventional technology does, but use Stormlight instead of gears or electricity.

they can turn Scandrian powers off, and cause ranged pain.

Roashar isn't just ahead here, it's laughable how weak Scandrial is in comparison.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

they can turn Scandrian powers off, and cause ranged pain.

Roashar isn't just ahead here, it's laughable how weak Scandrial is in comparison.

Scadrial can turn off Rosharan Tech too. 

If you talking about Anti-Tones we didn't discuss Allomantic Cooper. Im pretty sure Smoker can cancell effect of Anti-Tones or make it significantly weaker.

We font know Southern Technology. Is allready impressive, limiter only to few Allomantic and Feruchemical powers.

Difference is, for now Scadrial without magic is still strong. Roshar without magic literaly didn't exist.

34 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Some effects also have the potential to be extremely powerful, but I doubt that they can work with machines. Feruchemichal brass and zinc come to mind, with Allomantic pewter and electrum coming close. If brass can reliably siphon extra heat from machinery, it would be very convenient. Similarly, if zinc worked with computers, Scadrian computers could be as fast as ours with much slower hardware. (This one seems less plausible than others for meta reasons since Brandon is already doing something very similar in the Cytoverse.) A-pewter can work like the Rosharan Augmenter fabrial. A-electrum could be used in vehicles as a safety measure, maybe?

There was a WoB witch talks about possibility of use of Hemalurgy on machines, so all this should be possible. 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

they can turn Scandrian powers off, and cause ranged pain.

Both of these seem sort of irrelevant, IMHO. Turning powers off point is meaningless when combat occurs over distances. Also, Scadrians can do the same with Leeching fabrials. It seems to me that Roshar is much more vulnerable to that because they only use Investiture as a fuel and energy source.

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Roashar isn't just ahead here, it's laughable how weak Scandrial is in comparison.

That would depend on how you would define being ahead, I guess. Roshar has been creating fabrials for a long time, yes. But as I said, most of their fabrials do the same thing as our technology. If you look at it that way, Roshar still comes out ahead, but only by several devices like Oathgates and Surge fabrials. Since the first only exist on Rohar at its time, I'm not sure that their advantage is as great as you present it to be.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Scadrial can turn off Rosharan Tech too. 

How?

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

If you talking about Anti-Tones we didn't discuss Allomantic Cooper. Im pretty sure Smoker can cancell effect of Anti-Tones or make it significantly weaker.

Sibling supression/fused suppression fabrials, mixed with advanced cosmere knowledge.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Both of these seem sort of irrelevant, IMHO. Turning powers off point is meaningless when combat occurs over distances. Also, Scadrians can do the same with Leeching fabrials. It seems to me that Roshar is much more vulnerable to that because they only use Investiture as a fuel and energy source.

That's like saying removing your oponents air support is meaningless. They have no air support, you do, that is a MASSIVE tactical advantage.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

That would depend on how you would define being ahead, I guess. Roshar has been creating fabrials for a long time, yes. But as I said, most of their fabrials do the same thing as our technology. If you look at it that way, Roshar still comes out ahead, but only by several devices like Oathgates and Surge fabrials. Since the first only exist on Rohar at its time, I'm not sure that their advantage is as great as you present it to be.

Oathgates can be moved.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying removing your oponents air support is meaningless. They have no air support, you do, that is a MASSIVE tactical advantage.

To remove air support, you need the suppression bubble to reach them. A portable version of the device doesn't affect an area large enough to provide a tactical advantage over airships. So unless you plan on using sabotage, planting a field of suppressors on balloons hidden by Lightweawing, or moving the Sibling around, I don't see them being much of a threat to airforces.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Oathgates can be moved.

Not sure how I feel about moving the portals that are known for being stationary.

Edited February 14, 2021 by ScadrianTank

[Frustration he/him]

50 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

To remove air support, you need the suppression bubble to reach them. A portable version of the device doesn't affect an area large enough to provide a tactical advantage over airships. So unless you plan on using sabotage, planting a field of suppressors on balloons hidden by Lightweawing, or moving the Sibling around, I don't see them being much of a threat to airforces.

I was using that as a comparison. Steel compounders are no longer worth the steel they eat if their power turns off.

Gold is useless.

51 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Not sure how I feel about moving the portals that are known for being stationary.

Odium litteraly said they can be rebuilt so long as the spren are unharmed.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

How?

Ettmetal Leeching Cubes have Area Effect, similar to supressor fabrials. They can be also larger than standard supressors, because you don't need manifest Spren or large gemstone, all you need is more Ettmetal. Also, Leecher Cubes would work without any change against any Investiture, and supressors need to be set specificly.

 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Ettmetal Leeching Cubes have Area Effect, similar to supressor fabrials. They can be also larger than standard supressors, because you don't need manifest Spren or large gemstone, all you need is more Ettmetal. Also, Leecher Cubes would work without any change against any Investiture, and supressors need to be set specificly.

 

That is close but it would just be an investiture drain, not true supression, and it would work for all magic, not just Rosharan. And simply using unbonded deadeyes brings Roshar back into the lead.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is close but it would just be an investiture drain, not true supression, and it would work for all magic, not just Rosharan. And simply using unbonded deadeyes brings Roshar back into the lead.

Shardblade is useless if you get shot from distance. Plate is better, but still not enough. My point stands:

When Roshar cancells Scadrian magic, removes only one Scadrian strengh.

When Scadrial cancells Roshar's, IT cancells Roshar completly.