The deadeyes are experiencing the Shaod

[Koloss17 She/They]

Brandon said in the livestream that the deadeye spren is a relashonship that has been seen in other parts of the cosmere. My mind immediately jumped to elantrians. 
 

The elantrians had their investiture and their link to the Dor blocked because the command was incomplete. Because it was incomplete, they had sickly blotches, had no heartbeat, and could not heal. They themselves said that they were dead. That is what is happening to the deadeyes. Their command allowing them to exist or transition to their unbonded state or whatever happens after they break their bond is being interrupted mid-transition. This would explain the dead and clawed out eyes. This would explain why they seem to not access investiture or do anything with bonds. Ba-Ado-mishram Somehow allowed that transition to happen, so trapping her interrupted the command, just like with Elantris. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Koloss17

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

Brandon said in the livestream that the deadeye spren is a relashonship that has been seen in other parts of the cosmere. My mind immediately jumped to elantrians. 

Same, it also isn't something fully explained in the new Cosmere.

1 minute ago, Koloss17 said:

The elantrians had their investiture and their link to the Dor blocked because the command was incomplete. Because it was incomplete, they had sickly blotches, had no heartbeat, and could not heal. They themselves said that they were dead. That is what is happening to the deadeyes. Their command allowing them to exist or transition to their unbonded state or whatever happens after they break their bond is being interrupted mid-transition. This would explain the dead and clawed out eyes. This would explain why they seem to not access investiture or do anything with bonds. Bado-a-mishram Somehow allowed that transition to happen, so trapping her interrupted the command, just like with Elantris. 

It also leaves them partially in the PR, like it split their connection somehow.

[Jofwu he/him]

Not the Elantrians themselves--I think the Seons are the better comparison.

The Seons bonded to a "broken" Elantrian (how do we not have a term for them??) all exhibit the following:

• Their minds aren't entirely there. Same for deadeyes. They're sapient beings that seem to have lost their intelligence.
• The Aon symbols at their center appear broken up. Similarly, the deadeyes show visible signs of not looking right.
• They loosely follow around the human they are bonded to. Just as deadeyes follow the human they are bonded to in Shadesmar.

Might be some other things not coming to mind?

My general suspicion is that it's a Connection issue. Elantrians were "broken" because the chasm disrupted their Connection to the Dor. And those effects seem to extend to the Seon they are deeply Connected to with a bond. So how does that relate to the spren? BAM was Connected to the singers and we saw that her capture damaged their Connection. The mechanics behind that are a bit of a mystery though... In any case, perhaps this Unmade was Connected to all spren on Roshar as well, (maybe dating back to before she was even Unmade) so her imprisonment broken their Connection too?

But then why did it only affect them after Radiants broke oaths? Could guess that their bond with a stable human served as a lifeline for them, but it's still kind of weird. And what about the spren who weren't bonded? Is it possible that they were ALL (every last one of them??) bonded at the time of the Recreance?

I feel like there's a lot of mysteries to be unraveled here, but I'm trying to work through my reread before getting in the weeds of this theorizing. XD

[Koloss17 She/They]

7 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Not the Elantrians themselves--I think the Seons are the better comparison.

The Seons bonded to a "broken" Elantrian (how do we not have a term for them??) all exhibit the following:

• Their minds aren't entirely there. Same for deadeyes. They're sapient beings that seem to have lost their intelligence.
• The Aon symbols at their center appear broken up. Similarly, the deadeyes show visible signs of not looking right.
• They loosely follow around the human they are bonded to. Just as deadeyes follow the human they are bonded to in Shadesmar.

Might be some other things not coming to mind?

My general suspicion is that it's a Connection issue. Elantrians were "broken" because the chasm disrupted their Connection to the Dor. And those effects seem to extend to the Seon they are deeply Connected to with a bond. So how does that relate to the spren? BAM was Connected to the singers and we saw that her capture damaged their Connection. The mechanics behind that are a bit of a mystery though... In any case, perhaps this Unmade was Connected to all spren on Roshar as well, (maybe dating back to before she was even Unmade) so her imprisonment broken their Connection too?

But then why did it only affect them after Radiants broke oaths? Could guess that their bond with a stable human served as a lifeline for them, but it's still kind of weird. And what about the spren who weren't bonded? Is it possible that they were ALL (every last one of them??) bonded at the time of the Recreance?

I feel like there's a lot of mysteries to be unraveled here, but I'm trying to work through my reread before getting in the weeds of this theorizing. XD

You’re thinking along the same lines I am. Connection is what is severed. Their bond to something else. I do think you are right that it might be a better comparison to compare them to elantrian spren, rather than the elantrians themselves. And yeah, I do think there was some vulnerability when they broke off their oaths, so when they bond a human again, it would make sense for the spren to regain their connection and liveliness, reforming the connection they need to be alive. What I’m now wondering is this; why does it only happen to spren that break their oath? There are plenty of radiant spren who are alive and well, but they didn’t break bonds. So what state did they get in when they broke their bonds before the Recreance that no longer works because of the severed connection?

[Criggleworth]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately jumped to Elantris after Brandon's comment.

I have to imagine that breaking the oath is a sharper breaking of Connection than a Radiant dying. Could BAM have been some sort of Bondsmith type spren that facilitated restoring that damaged Connection? Brandon also mentioned that historically there have never been more than 3 Bondsmiths at one time. Which is not the same as saying that there are only three Bondsmith spren...

[Koloss17 She/They]

20 minutes ago, Criggleworth said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately jumped to Elantris after Brandon's comment.

I have to imagine that breaking the oath is a sharper breaking of Connection than a Radiant dying. Could BAM have been some sort of Bondsmith type spren that facilitated restoring that damaged Connection? Brandon also mentioned that historically there have never been more than 3 Bondsmiths at one time. Which is not the same as saying that there are only three Bondsmith spren...

Ooooh! I like this idea! More bondsmith spren...

BAM makes sense to be a bondsmith spren, but who were they a splinter of? Cultivation?

[FrostiiBeren]

I'm sorry if this is off topic, @Koloss17, I asked him the question about the bondsmiths last night hoping to tease out that there COULD be more than 3 Bondsmiths in the future/now. Based on his clever response and emphasis on historically + him and staff laughing about his response... I personally think that there could be 5+ Bondsmiths. Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling, BAM, and Sja-anat. BAM would be the Bondsmith spren of Voidlight and Sja-anat would be the Bondsmith spren of Warlight (like Sibling is towerlight).

Maybe I'll make a post to discuss it directly.

I completely agree with you that the Deadeyes are very similar to the Seons of Shaod'd people and that there's a specific Connection issue.

[Koloss17 She/They]

2 minutes ago, FrostiiBeren said:

I'm sorry if this is off topic, @Koloss17, I asked him the question about the bondsmiths last night hoping to tease out that there COULD be more than 3 Bondsmiths in the future/now. Based on his clever response and emphasis on historically + him and staff laughing about his response... I personally think that there could be 5+ Bondsmiths. Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling, BAM, and Sja-anat. BAM would be the Bondsmith spren of Voidlight and Sja-anat would be the Bondsmith spren of Warlight (like Sibling is towerlight).

Maybe I'll make a post to discuss it directly.

I completely agree with you that the Deadeyes are very similar to the Seons of Shaod'd people and that there's a specific Connection issue.

That’s an interesting idea, but then you would probably want a just voidlight godspren. Maybe with Todium, that will happen, though.

[Frustration he/him]

5 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Not the Elantrians themselves--I think the Seons are the better comparison.

The Seons bonded to a "broken" Elantrian (how do we not have a term for them??) all exhibit the following:

• Their minds aren't entirely there. Same for deadeyes. They're sapient beings that seem to have lost their intelligence.
• The Aon symbols at their center appear broken up. Similarly, the deadeyes show visible signs of not looking right.
• They loosely follow around the human they are bonded to. Just as deadeyes follow the human they are bonded to in Shadesmar.

Might be some other things not coming to mind?

My general suspicion is that it's a Connection issue. Elantrians were "broken" because the chasm disrupted their Connection to the Dor. And those effects seem to extend to the Seon they are deeply Connected to with a bond. So how does that relate to the spren? BAM was Connected to the singers and we saw that her capture damaged their Connection. The mechanics behind that are a bit of a mystery though... In any case, perhaps this Unmade was Connected to all spren on Roshar as well, (maybe dating back to before she was even Unmade) so her imprisonment broken their Connection too?

But then why did it only affect them after Radiants broke oaths? Could guess that their bond with a stable human served as a lifeline for them, but it's still kind of weird. And what about the spren who weren't bonded? Is it possible that they were ALL (every last one of them??) bonded at the time of the Recreance?

I feel like there's a lot of mysteries to be unraveled here, but I'm trying to work through my reread before getting in the weeds of this theorizing. XD

Good point with Seons, far more likely,

Perhapse we are looking too closely at a connection to Spren, there where spren who wheren't bonded to Radiants who are still around, and the spren didn't become dead eyes until after Oaths where broken, and new deadeyes can be formed.

So was BAM actually connected to the Radiants? or perhapse the Nahel bond itself?

Or did she mess with Whatever Ishar did to make the orders?

so many questions;

 

[Karger he/him]

Roshar seems to have a really complicated ecosystem that effects both spren and physical beings alike.  The greatshells seem to be the most aware of this as we know from dawnshard spoilers

Spoiler

They made agreements about the Larkin

and most recently chose to protect the singers.  If some part of this ecosystem is not functioning correctly it is possible that the cascade effects could damage everything on roshar since the very souls of many of its beings would be effected.  I actually think that the shaod is the best example as Adolin's method of combating it seems the same as Rao's. 

[+Czernobog]

I just got to this point listening to that livestream, and came to the same conclusion regarding the similarity Brandon mentioned. My next leap in thought was: before she was unmade, was BAM the spren of Roshar itself, and so capturing her (being the spren of the land) had a similar sort of effect as the earthquake did on Arelon, in disrupting the proper flow or maybe alignment of Investiture?

[Koloss17 She/They]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:06 PM, Czernobog said:

I just got to this point listening to that livestream, and came to the same conclusion regarding the similarity Brandon mentioned. My next leap in thought was: before she was unmade, was BAM the spren of Roshar itself, and so capturing her (being the spren of the land) had a similar sort of effect as the earthquake did on Arelon, in disrupting the proper flow or maybe alignment of Investiture?

Possibly, but maybe a more niche thing? I dunno if BAM could be that big. It would be interesting, but it might not fit thematically.

[Brgst13]

I'm going to do some wild theorizing here, so hold on:

First, spren exist mostly in the Cognitive realm.  When they bond a Radiant, the spren is pulled into the physical realm.  This mechanism is clearly still working.

Second, when a Radiant dies, the spren either returns to the Cognitive realm or bonds a new Radiant.  We saw this with the one Honorspren in WoR.

Third, when an oath is broken, the spren's body materializes as a Shardblade.  At least part of the Cognitive aspect returns to the Cognitive realm as a deadeye.  We see this with both Maya and Testament.

Fourth, this separation of physical and Cognitive did not occur prior to the Recreance.  The spren expected pain, but not death.  

Fifth, this is roughly the same time at which Cuseicash the Protector began to appear.  This megaspren appears at the same time every day, and looks toward the Origin.  It drains something from each person who views it.

Sixth, this is similar to the Shaod, where the Elantrians were trapped midway through transformation.

Seventh, this all began at approximately the same time as BAM was captured.

Eighth, Honor's tone was silenced that day.

Based on this, we can draw a few conclusions: 1. Whatever happened has blocked the ability of a spren to fully transition back to the Cognitive realm when oaths are broken.

2. This is related to the capture of BAM.  In order to do this, Melishi had to understand BAM to  a very large degree.

3. At roughly the same time, Cusiecash began appearing and displaying a series of faces. This spren faces the Origin, which is connected to the highstorms and by extension to Honor.

4. Therefore, we can conclude that the capture of BAM somehow damaged the Connection of all spren to Honor's tone.

5. My theory out of all this is as follows: Melishi swapped BAM's Connection to Odium for Honor, and used that to imprison her.  When doing so, though, Melishi unknowingly damaged the conduit that Connected the spren to Honor, prohibiting their return to the Cognitive Realm.  The part of the spren that was not able to return formed Cusiecash, where they display the faces of their Radiants.  These spren are trying to draw out Investiture to rebuild the Connection to Honor.

The Recreance occurred because this severing also removed Honor's restrictions on Surgebinding.  The spren, seeing what was to come and what had happened on Ashyn, chose to break their bonds rather than allow unchecked Surgebinding.

[Koloss17 She/They]

36 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I'm going to do some wild theorizing here, so hold on:

First, spren exist mostly in the Cognitive realm.  When they bond a Radiant, the spren is pulled into the physical realm.  This mechanism is clearly still working.

Second, when a Radiant dies, the spren either returns to the Cognitive realm or bonds a new Radiant.  We saw this with the one Honorspren in WoR.

Third, when an oath is broken, the spren's body materializes as a Shardblade.  At least part of the Cognitive aspect returns to the Cognitive realm as a deadeye.  We see this with both Maya and Testament.

Fourth, this separation of physical and Cognitive did not occur prior to the Recreance.  The spren expected pain, but not death.  

Fifth, this is roughly the same time at which Cuseicash the Protector began to appear.  This megaspren appears at the same time every day, and looks toward the Origin.  It drains something from each person who views it.

Sixth, this is similar to the Shaod, where the Elantrians were trapped midway through transformation.

Seventh, this all began at approximately the same time as BAM was captured.

Eighth, Honor's tone was silenced that day.

Based on this, we can draw a few conclusions: 1. Whatever happened has blocked the ability of a spren to fully transition back to the Cognitive realm when oaths are broken.

2. This is related to the capture of BAM.  In order to do this, Melishi had to understand BAM to  a very large degree.

3. At roughly the same time, Cusiecash began appearing and displaying a series of faces. This spren faces the Origin, which is connected to the highstorms and by extension to Honor.

4. Therefore, we can conclude that the capture of BAM somehow damaged the Connection of all spren to Honor's tone.

5. My theory out of all this is as follows: Melishi swapped BAM's Connection to Odium for Honor, and used that to imprison her.  When doing so, though, Melishi unknowingly damaged the conduit that Connected the spren to Honor, prohibiting their return to the Cognitive Realm.  The part of the spren that was not able to return formed Cusiecash, where they display the faces of their Radiants.  These spren are trying to draw out Investiture to rebuild the Connection to Honor.

The Recreance occurred because this severing also removed Honor's restrictions on Surgebinding.  The spren, seeing what was to come and what had happened on Ashyn, chose to break their bonds rather than allow unchecked Surgebinding.

It is a pretty wild theory, but it does give a very useful analasys. Whether or not the theory is right, thank you!

[Zanarkand]

I'm wondering if any other person bonded to a deadeye shardblade besides Adolin and Shallan has been to the cognitive realm and met their deadeye. I think this may be the reason Maya and now Testament have begun to heal.

Somehow when BAM was captured the radiant spren's connection to the cognitive realm was damaged, and those that were manifested in the physical realm due to the nahel bond were unable to properly return to the cognitive realm. We also know that a sapient spren without a bond cannot maintain their sapience in the physical realm. Thus a deadeye spren is a sapient spren that has lost their mind and is unable to fully manifest in the cognitive realm.

Now my theory is that since Adolin is bonded to Maya in some fashion, when he goes to Shadesmar he kind of "bridges the gap" so to speak. Not sure precisely how this works, but I'm convinced it's because Adolin went to Shadesmar while bonded to a deadeye that said deadeye has begun to heal. Also Shallan has apparently begun the same process with testament.

[mathiau he/him]

On 18/12/2020 at 5:27 AM, Koloss17 said:

Brandon said in the livestream that the deadeye spren is a relashonship that has been seen in other parts of the cosmere. My mind immediately jumped to elantrians.

Shades of Threnody too.

On 18/12/2020 at 8:40 PM, Frustration said:

So was BAM actually connected to the Radiants? or perhapse the Nahel bond itself?

Almost certainly

Quote

"Nevertheless, I’m writing answers for you here, because something glimmers deep within me. A fragment of a memory of what I once was.

I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren."

[Retrac he/him]

On 12/21/2020 at 6:37 PM, Brgst13 said:

Eighth, Honor's tone was silenced that day.

Do we know that Honor's tone was silenced on that day in particular? Beyond that great theory!!

[Kyn]

8 hours ago, Retrac said:

Do we know that Honor's tone was silenced on that day in particular?

That’s one of the few things we have direct confirmation of when it comes to a connection between Ba-Ado-Mishram and the issues with spren. Rhythm of War ch. 49:

Quote

The Sibling fell silent for a time, and Navani wondered if she had pushed the spren too far. Fortunately they spoke again, softly. I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

“How have no spren mentioned this?”

I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died …

[Retrac he/him]

On 2/4/2021 at 10:12 PM, Kyn said:

That’s one of the few things we have direct confirmation of when it comes to a connection between Ba-Ado-Mishram and the issues with spren. Rhythm of War ch. 49:

Oh ok thank you.

[Vissy]

On 12/22/2020 at 3:37 AM, Brgst13 said:

I'm going to do some wild theorizing here, so hold on:

First, spren exist mostly in the Cognitive realm.  When they bond a Radiant, the spren is pulled into the physical realm.  This mechanism is clearly still working.

Second, when a Radiant dies, the spren either returns to the Cognitive realm or bonds a new Radiant.  We saw this with the one Honorspren in WoR.

Third, when an oath is broken, the spren's body materializes as a Shardblade.  At least part of the Cognitive aspect returns to the Cognitive realm as a deadeye.  We see this with both Maya and Testament.

Fourth, this separation of physical and Cognitive did not occur prior to the Recreance.  The spren expected pain, but not death.  

Fifth, this is roughly the same time at which Cuseicash the Protector began to appear.  This megaspren appears at the same time every day, and looks toward the Origin.  It drains something from each person who views it.

Sixth, this is similar to the Shaod, where the Elantrians were trapped midway through transformation.

Seventh, this all began at approximately the same time as BAM was captured.

Eighth, Honor's tone was silenced that day.

Based on this, we can draw a few conclusions: 1. Whatever happened has blocked the ability of a spren to fully transition back to the Cognitive realm when oaths are broken.

2. This is related to the capture of BAM.  In order to do this, Melishi had to understand BAM to  a very large degree.

3. At roughly the same time, Cusiecash began appearing and displaying a series of faces. This spren faces the Origin, which is connected to the highstorms and by extension to Honor.

4. Therefore, we can conclude that the capture of BAM somehow damaged the Connection of all spren to Honor's tone.

5. My theory out of all this is as follows: Melishi swapped BAM's Connection to Odium for Honor, and used that to imprison her.  When doing so, though, Melishi unknowingly damaged the conduit that Connected the spren to Honor, prohibiting their return to the Cognitive Realm.  The part of the spren that was not able to return formed Cusiecash, where they display the faces of their Radiants.  These spren are trying to draw out Investiture to rebuild the Connection to Honor.

The Recreance occurred because this severing also removed Honor's restrictions on Surgebinding.  The spren, seeing what was to come and what had happened on Ashyn, chose to break their bonds rather than allow unchecked Surgebinding.

So theoretically if Dalinar opened a Perpendicularity at Cuseicash, everything would get fixed?

[mathiau he/him]

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

So theoretically if Dalinar opened a Perpendicularity at Cuseicash, everything would get fixed?

It'd probably be harder than that