Voidbinding solved

[Kyn]

29 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And what did Glys ask Renarin to do? "Take my sorrow"

I don’t think that’s what Glys meant. Let’s look at the way Glys talks in general, though. All from RoW, ch. 54

Quote

See the blackness that will be, Renarin? Glys said.

…

You will ask him? Glys said. So my siblings can be?

…

We need more, Glys said. We need more like us, who will be. Who?

Short version:

I’m pretty sure Glys meant “I give you my sympathy” and just didn’t have the right word.

Long version:

Spoiler

 

Glys tends to use infinitive forms when most people wouldn’t, but he does use imperatives. Aside from his “to be” forms, he also uses an appropriate verb – one that conveys his actual meaning, however stilted it’s form – although he is frequently off with noun and adjective choices.

If Glys wanted Renarin to “take my sorrow” like Moash wants Odium to take his, his previous word choices and speech patterns suggest he would have used an imperative of the appropriate verb, telling Renarin “You will take,” or more timidly asked Renarin to take it. Renarin is an ally, not a deity for Glys to offer up some aspect of himself to as a sacrifice.

If for some reason Glys meant he wanted Renarin to take away his sorrow, but chose instead to say he gave it, he should have used “give” differently if he was remaining within his displayed speech patterns. He might have said “I give” or “I am giving” because it’s more forceful, but to be most consistent, he should have said “I give to you my sorrow.”

Instead, Glys spoke archaically, or like someone for whom Alethi was not his first language, and in this case said something that sounds like it’s meant to be, “My condolences.”

 

So, when he was talking to Renarin in this context in Oathbringer, ch. 117:

Quote

“No, Father,” Renarin whispered. “Please. Not that. Don’t do it.…”

He will not be resisted, Glys said. My sorrow, Renarin. I will give you my sorrow.

It seems likely Glys literally meant “You have my sympathy” – so basically, “I’m sorry,” “I feel for you,” or “my condolences,” said by a non-native English speaker.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I agree.  Glys - in keeping with the whole future-sight theme - speaks almost exclusively in future tense; "you will" or "it will", rather than "you are" or "it is".

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

And both times it has happened it has been said to not have been possible before.

I mean, Melishi did things that weren't thought possible before, and was bonded to the Sibling. Just because it wasn't possible before doesn't make it exclusive to the Stormfather. It can also mean it's something that was prevented by Honor in the past. 

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Whose perpendicularly is it?

Honors

Dalinar's is, yes. We don't know about Ishar. Stormfather can't even sense Ishar's Perp, iirc?

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Also Ishar isn't technically a Bondsmith but might as well be.

Ehhh. Usage of the order terms tends to include the Heralds. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, Melishi did things that weren't thought possible before, and was bonded to the Sibling. Just because it wasn't possible before doesn't make it exclusive to the Stormfather. It can also mean it's something that was prevented by Honor in the past. 

Source? I'd like to look into that, has a lot of implications.

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Dalinar's is, yes. We don't know about Ishar. Stormfather can't even sense Ishar's Perp, iirc?

He seems to find it surprising and whose perpendicularly would it be?

Cultivation's is in the peaks and Odiums is who knows where.

6 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ehhh. Usage of the order terms tends to include the Heralds. 

Well yes, but Nale is the only one that truly fits.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Source? I'd like to look into that, has a lot of implications.

RoW 66

Quote

I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn.

“How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed.

I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines.

“The last Bondsmith,” Dalinar said. “Before the Recreance.”

The same. Honor was dying, possibly mad.

 

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

whose perpendicularly would it be

Depends how you define it. It was probably created using Honor's Investiture, yes, but any other Bondsmith would likely work the same in that regard. As far as I can tell, the Bondsmith Perps work via Connection, not just a large chunk of Investiture like normal. If so, then I feel calling it Honor's Perp is a misnomer, as it's not a Perp arising from Honor's presence, but rather something created in a weird hacky manner using his power.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well yes, but Nale is the only one that truly fits.

Nale's the only one who is bonded to a spren, but commonly usage of the term just means anyone with those two powers. So it depends how you're determining it. Nale's the only one who qualifies as a Radiant, though, yes. 

[Frustration he/him]

10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

RoW 66

intresting, I still don't think either of the others could make a perpendicularity because Cultivation remains unsplintered. Maybe Navani could do it, maybe, but I don't think so.

10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Depends how you define it. It was probably created using Honor's Investiture, yes, but any other Bondsmith would likely work the same in that regard. As far as I can tell, the Bondsmith Perps work via Connection, not just a large chunk of Investiture like normal. If so, then I feel calling it Honor's Perp is a misnomer, as it's not a Perp arising from Honor's presence, but rather something created in a weird hacky manner using his power.

everyone from the Stormfather to Ishar call it Honor's path.

[mathiau he/him]

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

intresting, I still don't think either of the others could make a perpendicularity because Cultivation remains unsplintered. Maybe Navani could do it, maybe, but I don't think so.

Imo it depends whether Navani is Surgebinding, Sciencebinding or both Surgebinding and Lifebinding. In the first case Cultivation will have no effect on her powers, in the two other I'm not sure. She definitely didn't have enough effect to prevent Melishi to obtain the blue lights part of his powers.

Anyway my point still stand: Boundsmith's Resonances were so strong they had to be nerfed.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Anyway my point still stand: Boundsmith's Resonances were so strong they had to be nerfed.

that's not a resonance

Edited January 27, 2021 by Frustration

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

that's not a resonance

So, is merging realms Tension or Adhesion in your opinion? Because if it's neither or both then it's a Resonance.

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, mathiau said:

So, is merging realms Tension or Adhesion in your opinion? Because if it's neither or both then it's a Resonance.

It is not a resonance if it's both.

A resonance is an additional effect.

Spoiler

InsaneScotsman

During the perpendicularity scene in Oathbringer is it safe to say that what Dalinar did is akin to super powered versions of his surges? Tension to make the realms ductile and formable, adhesion to bring them together. I know the specific ability is unique to Dalinar but I'm fairly attached to this rationalization

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't immediately shoot down this particular theory. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

 

And on Renarin are you saying that Nightforms have two voids or a Void and a Surge?

 

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It is not a resonance if it's both.

A resonance is an additional effect.

  Reveal hidden contents

InsaneScotsman

During the perpendicularity scene in Oathbringer is it safe to say that what Dalinar did is akin to super powered versions of his surges? Tension to make the realms ductile and formable, adhesion to bring them together. I know the specific ability is unique to Dalinar but I'm fairly attached to this rationalization

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't immediately shoot down this particular theory. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

 

So what about visions being an hybrif of his two Voids like reverse-lashing is?

Quote

And on Renarin are you saying that Nightforms have two voids or a Void and a Surge?

I think Voidbinders have two voids, possibly two void and two surges for Rlain, but you said a Void and a Surge so I'm trying not to brush that possibility of to quickly

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

So what about visions being an hybrif of his two Voids like reverse-lashing is?

I think Voidbinders have two voids, possibly two void and two surges for Rlain, but you said a Void and a Surge so I'm trying not to brush that possibility of to quickly

You know, why don't you  put this theory into a post, I'd like to see a full argument form you.

and besides it will increse overal intrest in it.

[mathiau he/him]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You know, why don't you  put this theory into a post, I'd like to see a full argument form you.

and besides it will increse overal intrest in it.

For vision being an hybrid it was a stupid idea, I thought visions were more different from both Renarin's use of Progression and of Illumination but S-Progression give two very different powers so I'm back as visions are a part of V-Progression

For Rlain possibly having both the Voids and the Surges, Tumi pulses to War so I think he had an incomplete enlightenment that only transformed his Cultivation part to Odium and I think it's possible Glys' one was complete, if both are true then he should give different powers than Glys and we've seen Rlain have vision so I'm betting he gives both Voids and Surges.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

everyone from the Stormfather to Ishar call it Honor's path.

I'm certainly willing to concede that Dalinar, due to his rather unique situation, might be directly moving Honor's Perp around somehow, but it would seem odd to me for Ishar to do the same.

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

So, is merging realms Tension or Adhesion in your opinion? Because if it's neither or both then it's a Resonance.

Much as I hate it, probably toss it under the Spiritual Adhesion pile, like most of the other Connection nonsense. 

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Much as I hate it, probably toss it under the Spiritual Adhesion pile, like most of the other Connection nonsense. 

Why might I ask do you feel this way?

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why might I ask do you feel this way?

Probably because it's starting to make a lot of spiritual Adhesion things.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Frustration said:

Why might I ask do you feel this way?

Why do I think Spiritual Adhesion? Because the way it's described seems like Connection mumbo jumbo to me.

Why do I hate it? Because everything seems to be Adhesion, and it's just way more overpowered than any other Surge. 

[Valigus]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:46 PM, Kyn said:

I think your idea of the Unmade requiring sacrifice holds up even if Sja-anat always did something similar to how she enlightens spren now. Yes, it’s likely she treated/affected them more harshly in the past, considering what she did was termed corruption by those who encountered the changed creatures.

But creatures giving up their identity is a tremendous sacrifice, trading what they were for what Sja-anat can make them. Especially if they give up memories and/or come out not knowing what their new roles, abilities, or identities are.

It seems as if all the Unmade require/manipulate a sort of selfish self-abnegation on the part of targets, making them give up or lose themselves in exchange for what the Unmade has to offer/inflict. A sacrifice indeed.

This makes a lot of sense since hatred is often emotionally self destructive.

[Elerubard]

On 1/25/2021 at 0:37 PM, mathiau said:

Usually being an important word

Wait, Neragoul cause emotional bliss? Seemed more like emotional chaos to me. Also Arshertmarn can also create illusion and more importantly the Diagram state all unmade can give some level of foresight, Moelach being the best at this.

And Sja enlighten, she doesn't corrupt.

Except he was wrong, Honour and Cultivation cares.

Except we're talking about humans, we also need other things, connexion to others for exemple.

Also you're talking about 6 and 4 but you had only shown the 6

I don't know who said that but they obviously didn't watch the chart for long enough. Voids are Honour's surges but centrally symetric instead of vertically symetric, it's not always the left side that's flipped, for Adhesion the central symetry was done on the oposite side compared to the one the vertical symetry was done, for Division, Progression and Tension the center of symetry is inside the rightmost of leftmost bar and you need a bit more defformation for Gravitation, Abrasion and even more for Transformation.

So I'm finding a 3-3-3-1 motif, you could argue that I'm separating a bit too much and it's actually a 7-3 or a 6-3-1 motif with the three being Gravitation, Abrasion and Transformation and the one being Adhesion.

Also, about Adhesion being weird, I guess the Voids are the basis of lifes then we're assuming they only works for living things? The wierd flip could mean they only have Void sipritual Adhesion and not Void physical Adhesion? It'd mean corrupted windsprens cannot control wind which would be weird.

Did you mean six and four? If not I'm having trouble following you.

Welllllll, actually it's probably either a side effect more than Void or restricted to V-Truthwachers or V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths. My argument for the first is that we've seen Renarin's power have malatium effects twice, when he used illumination on Moash at the begining of RoW but also when he healed Adolin's wrist at the begining of Oathbringer (the same scene he's shown to have made a blade) and I think we can agree there's no reason he'd be accidently using Illumination at that moment. Of course there's still the possiblity that future sight is an effect of Progression and his Malatium-light effect on Moash was actually a fusion V-Illumination and V-Progression

My argument for Foresight being locked to certain orders comes for the chart, every orders except V-Truthwachers and V-Boundsmiths are linked to their surges with purple lines, these two are on a a rubis linked to surges by lightnings; this implies their voids works differently than with the other orders, like what happen with H-Boundsmiths. Also that chart kind of makes me think to an eyes of which the ruby would be the iris.

Dakor is end-positive, did you mean Hemalurgy?

In Renarin's hand.

My thinking is that Renarin’s and other corrupted Radient’s future sight has less to do with Odium and more to do with the absence of Honor. Odium can see the future reasonably well and Cultivation is noted to be among the best at it; but Honor is one of the worst at it, and all spren are made up of some combination of Honor’s and Cultivation’s Investiture. The future sight is a thing more because Honor’s part of the spren, which would inhibit capabilities the spren and Surgebinder would otherwise have, has been changed or excised and replaced vs it be specifically because of Odium. We’ve only seen it with Truthwatcher spren because they’re particularly close to Cultivation because of Growth which combined with Illumination and Fortune lets them create understandible images of the information that can be interpreted.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Elerubard

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Elerubard said:

My thinking is that Renarin’s and other corrupted Radient’s future sight has less to do with Odium and more to do with the absence of Honor. Odium can see the future reasonably well and Cultivation is noted to be among the best at it; but Honor is one of the worst at it, and all spren are made up of some combination of Honor’s and Cultivation’s Investiture. The future sight is a thing more because Honor’s part of the spren, which would inhibit capabilities the spren and Surgebinder would otherwise have, has been changed or excised and replaced vs it be specifically because of Odium. We’ve only seen it with Truthwatcher spren because they’re particularly close to Cultivation because of Growth which combined with Illumination and Fortune lets them create understandible images of the information that can be interpreted.

Renarin's foresight is confirmed Voidbinding

[Kyn]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Renarin's foresight is confirmed Voidbinding

Awesome. Where is it confirmed?

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Awesome. Where is it confirmed?

Spoiler

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

There is more Brandon told Argent to look at the Voidbinding chart when he asked about Renarin's visions etc.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 27.1.2021 at 6:07 PM, mathiau said:

I think Voidbinders have two voids, possibly two void and two surges for Rlain, but you said a Void and a Surge so I'm trying not to brush that possibility of to quickly

The problem is that Renarin cannot make illusions. So it looks very much like his futuresight has replaced his Lightweaving. As far as he has a resonance, the best candidate is those wierd balls of light he can create.

The interesting question would be whether all enlightened spren replace the same surge, but we do not have seen a statistically significant number to draw a conclusion.

[mathiau he/him]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is that Renarin cannot make illusions. So it looks very much like his futuresight has replaced his Lightweaving. As far as he has a resonance, the best candidate is those wierd balls of light he can create.

The interesting question would be whether all enlightened spren replace the same surge, but we do not have seen a statistically significant number to draw a conclusion.

No offence but I'm really curious how you could look at the light balls and think Renarin's Illumination was fully replaced by his vision

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is that Renarin cannot make illusions. So it looks very much like his futuresight has replaced his Lightweaving. As far as he has a resonance, the best candidate is those wierd balls of light he can create.

The interesting question would be whether all enlightened spren replace the same surge, but we do not have seen a statistically significant number to draw a conclusion.

The light seems to be how he sees the future.