Do you believe in God?

[Guest]

UwU

I dont belive

Edited May 12, 2022 by Spook's biggest fan

[Liahona]

Another member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints here. I saw some others referencing the first and eleventh articles of faith, which I think is an excellent idea, so I'll just stick them all here.

Quote

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

(The place I copied it from has footnotes and I think I deleted all the footnotes, but let me know if there are some random letters in front of words for no discernible reason)

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I believe the Universe can likely be explained through science and math, we simply lack the tools to measure it. I also believe the Universe is deterministic and that causality cannot be broken.

[Szeth's Facepalm]

I think there's something. Maybe it's something we think of as God, maybe it is just an intelligent force beyond our comprehension. Maybe it's just science. But i think there's something out there.

But it is sometimes easier to think that we are all just organisms, our evolution was just a freak accident, and that we don't have souls and are just electrified meat. It makes it a lot easier to not care what other people think. But it also makes life seem meaningless.

So in conclusion? I don't know if i believe in a god, exactly. But i do think there is something out there that could have the potential to be a god, if that makes any sense. I guess this was just a roundabout way of saying i'm a weird brand of agnostic lol

Sorry, i'm kind of rambling

Edit: ok i just read over that and realized it makes absolutely no sense and makes me sound kind of crazy. Erm. In the words of of Henry Cheng, thought is my native language and it does not translate well to english.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Szeth's Facepalm

[Liahona]

That's actually really interesting. I doubt I understand it as well as you do () but I am intrigued

Edited May 18, 2022 by Liahona
Formatting errors

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

Here is one point of view(not mine, but I forgot where I heard it)

"If you do not believe in God, and there is no God, you will be fine. If you believe in God, and there is no God, you will be fine. If you do believe in God and there is a God, you will be fine. If you do not believe in God, and there is a God, then there will be problems. Therefore, I choose to cover my bases and believe in God" - somewhat paraphrased

Now my thoughts: There is some purpose for us being here, and as long as you respect my belief, I will respect your choice/belief.

[Trutharchivist he/him]

9 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

"If you do not believe in God, and there is no God, you will be fine. If you believe in God, and there is no God, you will be fine. If you do believe in God and there is a God, you will be fine. If you do not believe in God, and there is a God, then there will be problems. Therefore, I choose to cover my bases and believe in God" - somewhat paraphrased

It's a nice enough idea, but it doesn't work if what you're looking for is truth, only if you look at the consequence. 

The thing is, if it's truth you're after, believing in God "just in case" doesn't really cover it up. It works only under the assumption you're afraid of the consequences there'll be if you won't believe in God and you'll find out that there is one. And if there is an omniscient God, I'm not sure he'll be taken with the "belief just in case" idea.

And the only reason I wrote this post is because of a weird, obscure Doctor Who reference that managed to sneak in. Sorry about that.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

1 minute ago, Trutharchivist said:

It's a nice enough idea, but it doesn't work if what you're looking for is truth, only if you look at the consequence. 

The thing is, if it's truth you're after, believing in God "just in case" doesn't really cover it up. It works only under the assumption you're afraid of the consequences there'll be if you won't believe in God and you'll find out that there is one. And if there is an omniscient God, I'm not sure he'll be taken with the "belief just in case" idea.

And the only reason I wrote this post is because of a weird, obscure Doctor Who reference that managed to sneak in. Sorry about that.

as I said, it was something I read that I felt was somewhat relevant, not that I believe it. I agree with your reasoning.

[Ixthos he/him]

1 hour ago, Trutharchivist said:

It's a nice enough idea, but it doesn't work if what you're looking for is truth, only if you look at the consequence. 

The thing is, if it's truth you're after, believing in God "just in case" doesn't really cover it up. It works only under the assumption you're afraid of the consequences there'll be if you won't believe in God and you'll find out that there is one. And if there is an omniscient God, I'm not sure he'll be taken with the "belief just in case" idea.

And the only reason I wrote this post is because of a weird, obscure Doctor Who reference that managed to sneak in. Sorry about that.

Agreed. I've never been a fan of Pascal's Wager, though I do understand the logic behind it. It feels a little too much like hedging, and I think there is sufficient reason to believe God exists without that form of philosophical perspective - though one can still arrive at the conclusion that God exists just through philosophy, as shown by the philosophers who do, though that approach certainly can also be questioned.

 

1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

as I said, it was something I read that I felt was somewhat relevant, not that I believe it. I agree with your reasoning.

Ditto as mentioned above 

 

On 5/17/2022 at 5:54 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I believe the Universe can likely be explained through science and math, we simply lack the tools to measure it. I also believe the Universe is deterministic and that causality cannot be broken.

Do you feel that would rule out God, or that God can exist within or even above that? My own views hold that God is the source of logic and order and causality, that they are attributes that can only exist because of God, much like how a computer programmer can produce a simulation by encoding the rules they believe are valid into the system. Yet that same programmer can still interact with the simulation without it counting as violating causality, especially if some part of the programmer exists "inside" the simulation. Sorry, I'm just not really clear if you mean you think God does or doesn't exist, or if the universe is God?

 

2 hours ago, Szeth's Facepalm said:

Edit: ok i just read over that and realized it makes absolutely no sense and makes me sound kind of crazy. Erm. In the words of of Henry Cheng, thought is my native language and it does not translate well to english.

We've all been there  (seriously, some of my own posts have left me scratching my head a month later). I think your point did come across though.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

3 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Do you feel that would rule out God, or that God can exist within or even above that? My own views hold that God is the source of logic and order and causality, that they are attributes that can only exist because of God, much like how a computer programmer can produce a simulation by encoding the rules they believe are valid into the system. Yet that same programmer can still interact with the simulation without it counting as violating causality, especially if some part of the programmer exists "inside" the simulation. Sorry, I'm just not really clear if you mean you think God does or doesn't exist, or if the universe is God?

I don't believe there is a god or conscious force guiding the Universe. Most creation stories seem aimed at answering the question "where did the Universe come from?". I find it odd that the answer most religions arrive at is that god made it since this raises the obvious question "where did god come from?". If god can just exist, I see no reason that the Universe can't just exist. Adding deities just seems like extra steps to me. I also take issue with the vast discrepancy between the creation myths of various religions and the actual observable Universe. We know, with a reasonable measure of certainty, what happened in the beginning of our Universe down to incredibly small units of time and it in no way relates to any creation myth.

I'll also add that I take religious holy texts (bible, torah, ect.) literally and in that regard I find most religions abhorrent for their treatment of people that are "other".

In the case of western religion, I take issue especially with their treatment of the afterlife. I have been created without the capacity for belief through no fault of my own. I literally lack the capacity to believe. I could meet god face to face, and would assume I was suffering from mental illness, severe head trauma or a reaction to a psychoactive chemical. Presuming one of the various western religions was correct, I am to be tortured for eternity in a pit of fire because of something I have no control over. That is evil. It's like making an ant farm so you can burn the ants.

This got a bit ranty and off topic from your question, sorry. I'm gonna leave it in anyway since it is relevant to the topic at large.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't believe there is a god or conscious force guiding the Universe. Most creation stories seem aimed at answering the question "where did the Universe come from?". I find it odd that the answer most religions arrive at is that god made it since this raises the obvious question "where did god come from?". If god can just exist, I see no reason that the Universe can't just exist. Adding deities just seems like extra steps to me. I also take issue with the vast discrepancy between the creation myths of various religions and the actual observable Universe. We know, with a reasonable measure of certainty, what happened in the beginning of our Universe down to incredibly small units of time and it in no way relates to any creation myth.

I'll also add that I take religious holy texts (bible, torah, ect.) literally and in that regard I find most religions abhorrent for their treatment of people that are "other".

In the case of western religion, I take issue especially with their treatment of the afterlife. I have been created without the capacity for belief through no fault of my own. I literally lack the capacity to believe. I could meet god face to face, and would assume I was suffering from mental illness, severe head trauma or a reaction to a psychoactive chemical. Presuming one of the various western religions was correct, I am to be tortured for eternity in a pit of fire because of something I have no control over. That is evil. It's like making an ant farm so you can burn the ants.

This got a bit ranty and off topic from your question, sorry. I'm gonna leave it in anyway since it is relevant to the topic at large.

1. I completely respect your right to choose and believe/not believe as you will.

2. Faith is belief in that which is not seen(not exact wording, but close enough), and it actively takes effort.

3. (personal opinion on views of my religion) There is no way to get sent to a place that does not exist.

[Liahona]

If I may ask (feel free to ignore my question if you don't want to answer it) why do you not have the capacity to believe?

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 hours ago, Liahona said:

If I may ask (feel free to ignore my question if you don't want to answer it) why do you not have the capacity to believe?

I assume you meant this for me?

I couldn't really say. No part of any religion has ever seemed believable to me. There's really nothing that could convince me that one is true, except perhaps a deity of some kind inserting absolute knowledge of its truth into my mind. The Universe seems, to me at least, to be completely explicable. We simply haven't fully explained it yet. Any sort of "magic" or "spirituality" that people experience can pretty easily be blamed on our overactive brains. After all, there are people with mental conditions that cause them to effectively live in a different reality.

(I put those words in quotes because I'm using them to generalize larger ideas, not to be derisive)

[Ixthos he/him]

19 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't believe there is a god or conscious force guiding the Universe. Most creation stories seem aimed at answering the question "where did the Universe come from?". I find it odd that the answer most religions arrive at is that god made it since this raises the obvious question "where did god come from?". If god can just exist, I see no reason that the Universe can't just exist. Adding deities just seems like extra steps to me. I also take issue with the vast discrepancy between the creation myths of various religions and the actual observable Universe. We know, with a reasonable measure of certainty, what happened in the beginning of our Universe down to incredibly small units of time and it in no way relates to any creation myth.

I'll also add that I take religious holy texts (bible, torah, ect.) literally and in that regard I find most religions abhorrent for their treatment of people that are "other".

In the case of western religion, I take issue especially with their treatment of the afterlife. I have been created without the capacity for belief through no fault of my own. I literally lack the capacity to believe. I could meet god face to face, and would assume I was suffering from mental illness, severe head trauma or a reaction to a psychoactive chemical. Presuming one of the various western religions was correct, I am to be tortured for eternity in a pit of fire because of something I have no control over. That is evil. It's like making an ant farm so you can burn the ants.

This got a bit ranty and off topic from your question, sorry. I'm gonna leave it in anyway since it is relevant to the topic at large.

No worries, ranty is expected and often necessary for these sorts of discussions  

I'd really like to engage with you more on this - there are at least this topics that emerge from it - 1) the universe almost certainly requiring a beginning due to observed phenomena, 2) why God doesn't require a beginning, 3) how Genesis 1 relates to both a mythic and physical creation story, the physical one closely matching the current understanding of the universe's origins, 4) the paradoxes in nature and logic and how that relates to questions on what is and isn't credulous, especially with regards to God (i.e. why believing if God appeared to you you would think you are mad is an inconsistent position compared to the "insanity" present in reality), 5) how the Bible removes the "othering" of people, in particular Genesis 2, Genesis 12:3, and the entire New Testament, and 6) what scripture actually says about Hell, which is something I disagree with many of my Brothers and Sisters on. Just for the sake of brevity I will say that I think it is very clear in scripture, even if many other Christians disagree, that those who don't believe won't suffer eternal torment, only eternal destruction - i.e. you won't suffer forever, it is just that after the Resurrection of the Dead that all who aren't in the Book of Life will have to pay all dues and then cease to exist forever, their never being another Resurrection for them again.

I'm planning on covering a few of these topics in the thread I made a while back, https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107588-general-religious-discussion-thread, so if you like we can discuss this there. We also could in theory discuss this here as it does relate to the topic, or even in PM if you like. Either way I'd really like to engage with you more on this. I appreciate your views and I'm fairly sure that any discussion we have on this could be very productive, regardless of where we do so. Would you like to discuss one or more of these topics, and here, the general religious discussions thread, or PM?

[Elf They/them]

No, I do not belive in god.

 

[Liahona]

20 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I assume you meant this for me?

I couldn't really say. No part of any religion has ever seemed believable to me. There's really nothing that could convince me that one is true, except perhaps a deity of some kind inserting absolute knowledge of its truth into my mind. The Universe seems, to me at least, to be completely explicable. We simply haven't fully explained it yet. Any sort of "magic" or "spirituality" that people experience can pretty easily be blamed on our overactive brains. After all, there are people with mental conditions that cause them to effectively live in a different reality.

(I put those words in quotes because I'm using them to generalize larger ideas, not to be derisive)

Ah, I see. I'd argue that that doesn't make you incapable of believing, you just haven't found reason to believe in God (which is valid). (By the way, you explain your arguments very well. I appreciate that.)

[Hollow Graves]

I am agnostic.

So kind of but not really.

[Guest]

I just don't believe their is something controlling me I HAVE FREE WILL!!!!!!

[Orlion Blight he/him]

19 hours ago, Spook's biggest fan said:

I just don't believe their is something controlling me I HAVE FREE WILL!!!!!!

That's what THEY want you to think! le gasp!

[Guest]

... *takes a deep breath* 

[Ixthos he/him]

@Spook's biggest fan in all seriousness, why do you feel God - or any supernatural beings - would invalidate free will, or control you?

[Guest]

... it's a quote from a book

[Silverblade5 he/him]

What do you mean by God?

I believe in a first cause. 

I believe in some form of uplifting, that enables different degrees of sapience. 

I believe in an absolute high moral reference point.

While I am a practicing Christian, these are the fundamentals for that.

EDIT: While I don't agree with everything he says, the guy in the video below has some good points on this subject. I consider it worth watching

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Silverblade5

[Guest]

I'm an atheist

[Nathrangking he/him]

1 hour ago, Spook's biggest fan said:

I'm an atheist

I find that interesting. As a religious person I don't have a frame of reference for non belief. I'm interested in opposing views. Why don't you believe? What is it about the idea of the divine or religion that brings you the conclusion that a higher power cannot and does not exist?