Why roshar should attack Scadrial soon and therefore they probably will

[ScadrianTank he/him]

8 minutes ago, Valigus said:

that is true but I’m assuming everything is as it is rn, and rn seems like the best move to knock them out early.

I don't see a way to knock out Scadrial short of killing everyone on the planet or Shattering Harmony and hoping that Allomancy and Feruchemy would just cease to exist in their current state. 

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, ScadrianTank said:

I don't see a way to knock out Scadrial short of killing everyone on the planet or Shattering Harmony and hoping that Allomancy and Feruchemy would just cease to exist in their current state. 

Simple, start a civil war among them, then aid every side, eventually industry and population is so far gone that they will never catch back up to Roshar.

[Valigus]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simple, start a civil war among them, then aid every side, eventually industry and population is so far gone that they will never catch back up to Roshar.

Exactly this which I think shallan and her Lightweavers could easily accomplish maybe the fused and windrunners take out a few key players who the infiltrators can’t kill like wax which shouldn’t be hard and boom

[ScadrianTank he/him]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simple, start a civil war among them, then aid every side, eventually industry and population is so far gone that they will never catch back up to Roshar.

I don't know if civil war even applies when talking about a planet with several different nations. Even if you started a war on Scadrial so large that it threatened industry and population on the whole planet, Scadrial as a whole would come out of it even more technologically advanced in all areas, as evidenced by two world wars we had. To do what you propose, Odium would have to start a Desolation level event, which seems like it would take more resources than on Roshar, given that Scadrial is more advanced and all.

On the point of killing Harmony, we are talking about a state of the cosmere at the time of RoW, where he would have some difficulties reaching Sazed. And if we assume that he could just kill Harmony, he wouldn't even need to fight the Scadrians, just Splinter Sazed, and go on to the next Shardworld. 

[Valigus]

13 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I don't know if civil war even applies when talking about a planet with several different nations. Even if you started a war on Scadrial so large that it threatened industry and population on the whole planet, Scadrial as a whole would come out of it even more technologically advanced in all areas, as evidenced by two world wars we had. To do what you propose, Odium would have to start a Desolation level event, which seems like it would take more resources than on Roshar, given that Scadrial is more advanced and all.

On the point of killing Harmony, we are talking about a state of the cosmere at the time of RoW, where he would have some difficulties reaching Sazed. And if we assume that he could just kill Harmony, he wouldn't even need to fight the Scadrians, just Splinter Sazed, and go on to the next Shardworld. 

Scadrial also has what appears to be a much less spread out and generally smaller population, also I don’t know about that because I think a perpetual civil war where all the scientists and leaders are being killed constantly would be desolation level

Imagine if every single time in a civil war someone gained power or figured out a new technology a lightweaver killed them. That would be pretty bad.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Scadrial also has what appears to be a much less spread out and generally smaller population, also I don’t know about that because I think a perpetual civil war where all the scientists and leaders are being killed constantly would be desolation level

Imagine if every single time in a civil war someone gained power or figured out a new technology a lightweaver killed them. That would be pretty bad.

Or an army of stonewards leveled their city.

[Valigus]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Or an army of stonewards leveled their city.

That would work too

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Or an army of stonewards leveled their city.

That would start a war between Radiants actually. The Windrunners would have to protect the civilians.

Civil War is unlikely on Scadrial at this point in time because most of the planet is loyal to one person. You’d need to eliminate Kelsier before he can unite the planet. 
 

@Frustration There’s distance, and then there’s multiple lightyears.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

30 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Scadrial also has what appears to be a much less spread out and generally smaller population, also I don’t know about that because I think a perpetual civil war where all the scientists and leaders are being killed constantly would be desolation level

Imagine if every single time in a civil war someone gained power or figured out a new technology a lightweaver killed them. That would be pretty bad.

You don't kill enemy scientists during a war, especially when they have a technological advantage - you recruit them. And usually, by the time people figure out that the enemy has new technology, they are already fighting it, so killing scientists who figured it out in the first place is no longer useful. Having Lightweaver spies kill people every time someone has a cool idea would require that they infiltrated every scientific, military, and political institution on the planet and force them to fight one another. 

Which, they did, by the way, if we think that the Set is Odiums force. And by the end of the BoM, leaders of the Set realized that it would be easier to destroy all life on the planet.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

12 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

 

You don't kill enemy scientists during a war, especially when they have a technological advantage - you recruit them. And usually, by the time people figure out that the enemy has new technology, they are already fighting it, so killing scientists who figured it out in the first place is no longer useful. Having Lightweaver spies kill people every time someone has a cool idea would require that they infiltrated every scientific, military, and political institution on the planet and force them to fight one another. 

Which, they did, by the way, if we think that the Set is Odiums force. And by the end of the BoM, leaders of the Set realized that it would be easier to destroy all life on the planet.

Once they realized that there was another civilization they knew nothing about, was even more advanced, and completely outside their control. 
 

.... Why do I get the feeling the South isn’t Kelsier’s only secret hidden civilization on Scadrial...

[Frustration he/him]

35 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

@Frustration There’s distance, and then there’s multiple lightyears.

No, there is only so much distance between planets in the CR.

Likely not to exceed 10,000 mile trip total.

[Valigus]

47 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

 

You don't kill enemy scientists during a war, especially when they have a technological advantage - you recruit them. And usually, by the time people figure out that the enemy has new technology, they are already fighting it, so killing scientists who figured it out in the first place is no longer useful. Having Lightweaver spies kill people every time someone has a cool idea would require that they infiltrated every scientific, military, and political institution on the planet and force them to fight one another. 

Which, they did, by the way, if we think that the Set is Odiums force. And by the end of the BoM, leaders of the Set realized that it would be easier to destroy all life on the planet.

That is actually true, I do think odium controls the set it’s very much his style which means he has succeeded at exactly what we are talking about.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, there is only so much distance between planets in the CR.

Likely not to exceed 10,000 mile trip total.

The issue is physical realm distance, not cognitive. Bondsmith and Spren can’t both be in the physical realm lightyears apart. We know that trying to summon a Shardblade from another planet will take a very long time, so the Physical Realm distance is important.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The issue is physical realm distance, not cognitive. Bondsmith and Spren can’t both be in the physical realm lightyears apart. We know that trying to summon a Shardblade from another planet will take a very long time, so the Physical Realm distance is important.

But there is no distance in the SR, so I don't see why the Bondsmith and spren can have a huge distance between them.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But there is no distance in the SR, so I don't see why the Bondsmith and spren can have a huge distance between them.

Because the Bond functions on all three realms. I don’t know that the Bond would be damaged, just that I don’t think they could use their powers if too far away. And multiple lightyears is pretty far!

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, there is only so much distance between planets in the CR.

Likely not to exceed 10,000 mile trip total.

But this is also Connection to the planet Problem. Every spren can exist only on Roshar (for now) and this is where Radiant Powers work. Syl states clearly this.

@Valigus

1. Scadrial has literaly whole race born to war. Koloss. We dont know power level, but I think they are similar to Warform Singers.

2. Everything Scadrians need to detect Lightweaver Spy is Seeker. But Rosharans have nothing to detect Kandra.

3. With Southern Scadrial Medalions and hemalurgic spikes Scadrians have potential to have whole armies with powers. Powers witch can work anywhere, unlike Radiants - they need transport Stormlight, or take Bondsmith, both tasks dificoult. And I think if Invasion rely on one person, is very bad planed.

4. Aluminum:

Quote

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)
#1 April 21, 2018 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

ChickenBites

Can you Soulcast aluminum into other materials?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum would strongly resist any sort of Soulcasting.

Billy Todd

Would that resistance be overcome? Could be overcome?

Brandon Sanderson

This is the question. Everything can be, right? Aluminum, in the cosmere, was created. And can be created. So, people ask me this, "Can? Cannot?" Like, with a powerful enough magnet in our world, what can you do? Like, is water magnetic? ...But, could you make water respond to a magnet? Yes! You can make anything if you really try hard enough... It's, like, this idea, that when people are like, "Can you, yes or no?" Well... yes! Would it take the power of six Shards of Adonalsium working together? Maybe! Can you? Yes, you probably can. Like, we're talking about a fantasy universe where almost anything is possible, and the impossibilities are contradictions, it's "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort of questions when you get into "can you?"

Now, could you Soulcast aluminum using a reasonable amount of energy that an individual could conceivably have in a normal setting and situation? No. If that's what you're looking for.

According to this, Aluminum is not just impossible to soulcast into something, but also very hard to get by soulcasting

5. You underestimate potential of Feruchemy (like many here). F-Bronze, F-Bendaloy, F-Cadmium allow to fight whole days, F-Zinc will allow to be tactical genius with lightning speed calculations, F-Chromium can basicly give Futursight, F-Electrum can literaly turn anyone in maniacal state, F-Gold is obviuos, F-Duralumin can do the same what Bondsmith can do, And F-Nicrosil can give ALL those skills to anyone.

[Valigus]

3 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

But this is also Connection to the planet Problem. Every spren can exist only on Roshar (for now) and this is where Radiant Powers work. Syl states clearly this.

@Valigus

1. Scadrial has literaly whole race born to war. Koloss. We dont know power level, but I think they are similar to Warform Singers.

2. Everything Scadrians need to detect Lightweaver Spy is Seeker. But Rosharans have nothing to detect Kandra.

3. With Southern Scadrial Medalions and hemalurgic spikes Scadrians have potential to have whole armies with powers. Powers witch can work anywhere, unlike Radiants - they need transport Stormlight, or take Bondsmith, both tasks dificoult. And I think if Invasion rely on one person, is very bad planed.

4. Aluminum:

According to this, Aluminum is not just impossible to soulcast into something, but also very hard to get by soulcasting

5. You underestimate potential of Feruchemy (like many here). F-Bronze, F-Bendaloy, F-Cadmium allow to fight whole days, F-Zinc will allow to be tactical genius with lightning speed calculations, F-Chromium can basicly give Futursight, F-Electrum can literaly turn anyone in maniacal state, F-Gold is obviuos, F-Duralumin can do the same what Bondsmith can do, And F-Nicrosil can give ALL those skills to anyone.

But how would they know what a lightweaver is? It would just look like some weird thing they have never seen before.

But as shown in the 6th of the dusk sequel but we have they will be able to leave.

Alethi troops have been shown to beat singers 

mother then the fact that almsot all their leaders are becoming radiant and therefore them lacking those powers is noticeable, and that kandra would have a very hard time replacing someone guarded by radiants and sky breakers can tell when people lie.

 

Hemalurgy can’t add people with powers there aren’t enough people on Scadrial who posses powers to create an army of them and so therefore you could not create an army with powers using hemalurgy.

 

It’s not hard it is rare, soul casting things into aluminum woudl not be hard for radiants who are not limited in their soul casting and jasnah in like a solid week of nonstop work could make more aluminum then Scadrial could have for decades.

None of those matter when against a shardblade, radiants outclass anything not a fullborn by a mile. Plus there are a lot a lot more radiants then magic users on Scadrial, this is something people don’t seem to process radiants are not more rare anymore and in fact may be useful at the very least then combatively useful ferrings and mistings. 
 

Scadrial is at every disadvantage During a war. Except guns and supply’s (but the second isn’t too big because casters are literally the single most overpowered thing in existence compared to a soul caster fullborns are weak on a macro scale because needing no supply lines makes waging war 100 times easier. Grain, metal and stone Soulcasters>bondsmith a, fullborns, army of radiants literally everything is outclassed by soulcasters guns and a big enough army(except shards obviously)

 

(also just thought of this but transportation should allow them to see kandra since I doubt kandra appear just like people in the cognative realm which actually gives them a fairly sure way of detecting them)

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[+Bzhydack he/him]

 

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But as shown in the 6th of the dusk sequel but we have they will be able to leave.

This is hundreds if not thousands years in the future from what we have now. And we dont know There are Bondsmiths there.

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Hemalurgy can’t add people with powers there aren’t enough people on Scadrial who posses powers to create an army of them and so therefore you could not create an army with powers using hemalurgy.

You can

Gold compounder is able to heal himself from wound caused by spike, he just need have enough health stored, because he can restore his Allomantic Powers by Feruchemical, and Vice Versa (can burn his metalminds with stored health, and heal himself even if is no longer Feruchemist). So from Gold Compounder we can get practicly as many A-Gold and F-Gold spikes as we want, with this we can get any other spike (When we give both gold powers to any other misting).

And there are also Medalions.

14 minutes ago, Valigus said:

It’s not hard it is rare, soul casting things into aluminum woudl not be hard for radiants who are not limited in their soul casting and jasnah in like a solid week of nonstop work could make more aluminum then Scadrial could have for decades.

You now simply rejected WoB I gave you. With this duscusion is meaningless. And Hopeless.

They knew Aluminum is usefull against Fused powers. Why Jasnah didnt make it? Aluminum arrows against stormform and all not-armored fused would be very usefull. If it is simple like you told us, why not make it allready? Why Dalinar dont have aluminum sword or armor? They know Fused have shardblades and Dalinar is prime target.

15 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Alethi troops have been shown to beat singers 

Right. And is possible to beat Koloss. I think they are comparable with overall usefullness, but in terms of raw strengh Koloss outclass practicly anything non-magical enhanced (mean, they are magical in origin, but their strengh and stamina are simply physical). Do you remember how big Koloss sword was? And now imagine Koloss with gun. Hard to imagine? Check Ogryn from WH 40K. It will be like this.

 

25 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But how would they know what a lightweaver is? It would just look like some weird thing they have never seen before.

This is exactly it. Seeker would know about all 16 Allomantic Powers, and probably 16 Feruchemical aswell, so when he would detect something new, he would be sure it is foreign magic, and bye-bye disguise.

32 minutes ago, Valigus said:

mother then the fact that almsot all their leaders are becoming radiant and therefore them lacking those powers is noticeable, and that kandra would have a very hard time replacing someone guarded by radiants and sky breakers can tell when people lie.

How do you know Skybreakers are Lie Detectors? It is some WoB? I didnt know that.

Besides, its possible to steal Nahel Bond with Hemalurgy, and maintain it. Oaths arent about loyality to some conflicts side (except maybe Skybreakers). Besides (again) there are plenty people who will not be Radiants. Kandra can inpose someone so good so cannot be recognised by own family, so why Skybreaker would even need to check this one?

36 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Scadrial is at every disadvantage During a war.

All Scadrial need is bunch of large Ettmetal Leeching cubes and all Rosharan advantages disapears. And Scadrial have much more advanced mechanical technology, so can work (and fight) without Invested Arts. Roshar (at this moment) cant. Their greatest strengh is also their greatest weakness. Perpendicularity is limited in range, and canot be maintain forever. Everywhere above that range Rosharans would die.

Also, not many Radiants reach 4th Ideal, and Spren arent numerous. It is like maybe few hundreds Honorspren in total, and they are one of more numerous Spren. And anything what is needet to kill 3th Oath and below Radiant is good rifle and aluminum bullet in the head (design to stay in wound). And tin-metalborn should make preaty good snipers for me. To kill Full Shardbearer, you need just machinegun, even without Aluminum. To kill 4th Oath Radiant and above you need heavy machinegun with aluminum ammo. This is that simple.

[Clovermite]

48 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But how would they know what a lightweaver is? It would just look like some weird thing they have never seen before.

The Ghostbloods have already infiltrated Roshar, and Mraize has firsthand experience of a Lightweaver that he has undoubtedly reported back to Thaidakkar.

I'm seeing a lot of references to Navani, Szeth, and Shallan helping out in this thread. I see no reason why they would help Taravangian invade Scadrial. Dalinar will be forced to help, as that's part of his deal with Odium. Szeth, however, hates Taravangian, and I don't see that changing simply because he ascended to Odium. Likewise, Navani already dislikes Taravangian, and would likely hate him more for the pain that Dalinar's service as a champion will cause him. Perhaps she would agree to go with Dalinar so she could be with him, but I don't see her actively helping to conquer a world she has no beef with.

Shallan has kind of declared war against the Ghostbloods, but the nature of his resistance seems to be resisting their efforts on Roshar. I don't see why she would decide to invade. She may even join up with team Harmony to help protect innocents, as I suspect many Radiants would.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

9 minutes ago, Clovermite said:

The Ghostbloods have already infiltrated Roshar, and Mraize has firsthand experience of a Lightweaver that he has undoubtedly reported back to Thaidakkar.

I'm seeing a lot of references to Navani, Szeth, and Shallan helping out in this thread. I see no reason why they would help Taravangian invade Scadrial. Dalinar will be forced to help, as that's part of his deal with Odium. Szeth, however, hates Taravangian, and I don't see that changing simply because he ascended to Odium. Likewise, Navani already dislikes Taravangian, and would likely hate him more for the pain that Dalinar's service as a champion will cause him. Perhaps she would agree to go with Dalinar so she could be with him, but I don't see her actively helping to conquer a world she has no beef with.

Shallan has kind of declared war against the Ghostbloods, but the nature of his resistance seems to be resisting their efforts on Roshar. I don't see why she would decide to invade. She may even join up with team Harmony to help protect innocents, as I suspect many Radiants would.

Well, Shallan has already declared war - albeit unintentionally - on most of Scadrial. Because you can’t declare war on a king/god without declaring war on his subjects/believers. Pretty sure Kell would forgive her to team up against a greater threat.

... I cannot speak for her survival once said greater threat is taken care of.

[Valigus]

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

 

This is hundreds if not thousands years in the future from what we have now. And we dont know There are Bondsmiths there.

You can

Gold compounder is able to heal himself from wound caused by spike, he just need have enough health stored, because he can restore his Allomantic Powers by Feruchemical, and Vice Versa (can burn his metalminds with stored health, and heal himself even if is no longer Feruchemist). So from Gold Compounder we can get practicly as many A-Gold and F-Gold spikes as we want, with this we can get any other spike (When we give both gold powers to any other misting).

And there are also Medalions.

You now simply rejected WoB I gave you. With this duscusion is meaningless. And Hopeless.

They knew Aluminum is usefull against Fused powers. Why Jasnah didnt make it? Aluminum arrows against stormform and all not-armored fused would be very usefull. If it is simple like you told us, why not make it allready? Why Dalinar dont have aluminum sword or armor? They know Fused have shardblades and Dalinar is prime target.

Right. And is possible to beat Koloss. I think they are comparable with overall usefullness, but in terms of raw strengh Koloss outclass practicly anything non-magical enhanced (mean, they are magical in origin, but their strengh and stamina are simply physical). Do you remember how big Koloss sword was? And now imagine Koloss with gun. Hard to imagine? Check Ogryn from WH 40K. It will be like this.

 

This is exactly it. Seeker would know about all 16 Allomantic Powers, and probably 16 Feruchemical aswell, so when he would detect something new, he would be sure it is foreign magic, and bye-bye disguise.

How do you know Skybreakers are Lie Detectors? It is some WoB? I didnt know that.

Besides, its possible to steal Nahel Bond with Hemalurgy, and maintain it. Oaths arent about loyality to some conflicts side (except maybe Skybreakers). Besides (again) there are plenty people who will not be Radiants. Kandra can inpose someone so good so cannot be recognised by own family, so why Skybreaker would even need to check this one?

All Scadrial need is bunch of large Ettmetal Leeching cubes and all Rosharan advantages disapears. And Scadrial have much more advanced mechanical technology, so can work (and fight) without Invested Arts. Roshar (at this moment) cant. Their greatest strengh is also their greatest weakness. Perpendicularity is limited in range, and canot be maintain forever. Everywhere above that range Rosharans would die.

Also, not many Radiants reach 4th Ideal, and Spren arent numerous. It is like maybe few hundreds Honorspren in total, and they are one of more numerous Spren. And anything what is needet to kill 3th Oath and below Radiant is good rifle and aluminum bullet in the head (design to stay in wound). And tin-metalborn should make preaty good snipers for me. To kill Full Shardbearer, you need just machinegun, even without Aluminum. To kill 4th Oath Radiant and above you need heavy machinegun with aluminum ammo. This is that simple.

Sky breakers are lie detectors by their resonance

i didn’t ignore your Wob it simply doesn’t apply, that is specifically about soul casting aluminum I’m into something else not soul casting soemthing else into aluminum. I am talking about how jasnah or other radiant soulcasters could easily create as much aluminum as they want if needed.

waz has been stated to be the only crashed every or maybe it was one of three, a compounder is likely far rarer meaning miles may be the only one ever.

The spren can choose of their own volition to break it off after it is taken and you still have to manage to hit a radiant with a spike then take it o and stick it in yourself without dying that’s almsot impossible especially because it had to be in the right spot.

But they don’t have that, and even if they did it wouldn’t matter because rosharans can just reposition those leaching cubes would do nothing to windrunners, edgedancer a, sky breakers, etc who can just nope out and in all likelihood 4th ideal radiants would heavily resist the effect.

I doubt that would work keep in mind aluminum is a fairly soft metal do aluminum billets may not have the penetration power to reasonably quickly deal with shardplate.

so basically 

aluminum loses to shardplate

lwevher keeps don’t work on flying people and possibly don’t work on 4th ideal radiants and if having your spine severed repeatedly is only an inconvenience I doubt billets will do anything.

hemaulurgy won’t help unless they capture radiants which likely wouldn’t ever happen.

rosharans can likely work out fabriel suppressors for scadrian magic

Yeah flip side of koloss it takes 1 bullet to kill one compared to you know singers who can see the future, basically be kandra, jump like 30 meters etc depending on forms, mature Qucikly replenishing numbers very fast so many advantages.

addiontalky foreign magic isn’t necessarily immediate cause for alarm if you see soemthing you have never seen before do you immediately go like oh it’s scary dangerous or do you investigate probably revealing to the lightweaver they have been detected and promptly getting yourself killed, and once again I think everyone is far over estimating the numbers of mistings and ferrings they have, in the original trilogy twelve mistings were a lot and I’d bet there were maybe 300- 500 mistings and at most 50 mistborn in the final empire who had powers that could be accessed (as in not electrum etc) and who knew they were mistborn. Maybe there were a similar amount of feruchamists and ferrings then most of them died let’s assume a third survives except likely no msitborn did

so 150 ferrings 150 mistings and spook now based on how early they show up I think it’s safe to say there are probably around 30- 75 twin born max in the world of wax is the only crashes ever and we hear about none others but miles and Wayne. Then probably because higher population about let’s say 300+ ferrings since they seem rarer and 500+ mistings 1/4 mistings are basically useless and ferrings are like 5/16 possibly higher but I think storing connection could make you immune to bondsmith thread manipulation.

I also think you are majorly underestimating the honor spren there are enough honorspren in one place to make a city on top of the fact that it is not their only city they have others and not all of their people are even there. They have about 30 windrunners rn but even if we assume the maximum number of  full windrunners is let’s say 200 which is almost certainly untrue kaladin has a 30+ man bridge crew as squires that means each windrunner can have 20 duties if we say kaladin is an anomaly which means roughly 6000 squires.just windrunner squires would outnumber every single magic user on Scadrial by potentially as much as two times and even if I’m massively lowballing estimates there are still unlikely to be more ferrings and Mistings then just windrunner squires. And since each windrunner squires if you just idk gave them a heavy machine gun whcih woudl be fine since weights doesn’t matter they are basically a fighter jet that means that roshar can basically can outnumber the total combat fighter complement of the us military by a factor of 6. If we assume 200 is the max for every order and stonewards seem to have like 2-3 squires low end that means each stoneware squires alone could potentially be equal to half of the magic users on Scadrial. 
And the point of this is that radiants and squires outclass any type of ferrings or misting by a large margin, surgebinding is a far stronger magic system then anything else and odium even says as much. Every single squire for these radiants is like a gold compounder plus extra. A windrunner squire is a gold compounder/lurcher(also if windrunners learn the chest plate thing from lurchers they could use the black hole lashing forgot it’s name to suck projectiles to it)/ coinshot/ crappy thug. Even if there are 10,000 magic users on Scadrial which seems highly unlikely from what we have seen they are still outnumbered and outmatched by radiants and squires. The only advantage they have is guns the only thing roshar needs to do to get them is show up to a few gun shops in power armor basically or buy them. Wanna compare to 40k a 4th ideal radiant is basically a space marine honestly a 4th id radiant would be at any non psycher space marine to a pulp.(because shardblade)

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[Proletariat]

Now is a terrible time for any planet to attempt to wage war, but most especially Roshar:

• They are still politically divided, and vacating a large amount of troops from any single population would be an invitation for invasion.
• Their greatest resources - surgebinders and fabrials - cannot yet leave in this time period. And even if they could they have almost no means for re-fuelling Stormlight once they enter into the Cognitive Realm which functionally nullifies their abilities either way.
• There is no food in the Cognitive realm, so they haven't the means to appropriately resource a large travelling army.
• They would be sending their soldiers effectively single file through Harmony's pool which means they could be taken out one at a time by a much smaller defending force.
• They may be martially trained, but they are likely to not have appropriate armour to deal with bullets, let alone the bombs and airships from the South.

FTL space travel is going to be vital for this kind of conflict to take place in a serious way.

[Valigus]

29 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Now is a terrible time for any planet to attempt to wage war, but most especially Roshar:

• They are still politically divided, and vacating a large amount of troops from any single population would be an invitation for invasion.
• Their greatest resources - surgebinders and fabrials - cannot yet leave in this time period. And even if they could they have almost no means for re-fuelling Stormlight once they enter into the Cognitive Realm which functionally nullifies their abilities either way.
• There is no food in the Cognitive realm, so they haven't the means to appropriately resource a large travelling army.
• They would be sending their soldiers effectively single file through Harmony's pool which means they could be taken out one at a time by a much smaller defending force.
• They may be martially trained, but they are likely to not have appropriate armour to deal with bullets, let alone the bombs and airships from the South.

FTL space travel is going to be vital for this kind of conflict to take place in a serious way.

The world is not any more divided then Scadrial but that is true however all the need is a few surgebinders to screw Scadrial ove rand grab some weapons in the chaos.

North Scadrial is on the brink of civil war and wax just made it worse. We have seen how easy it was for a kandra to destabilize everything, it’s naive to think that tension is gone forever a skilled lightweaver or Mavset-I’m or even better a team could easily destabilize the nation.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

 

i didn’t ignore your Wob it simply doesn’t apply, that is specifically about soul casting aluminum I’m into something else not soul casting soemthing else into aluminum. I am talking about how jasnah or other radiant soulcasters could easily create as much aluminum as they want if needed.

ANY sort of soulcasting is both sides. Soulcast into, soulcast from.

 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

waz has been stated to be the only crashed every or maybe it was one of three, a compounder is likely far rarer meaning miles may be the only one ever.

Its possible to steal hemalurgicly power earlier given by hemalurgy (mean if someone is spiked you can spike him again with other spike and steal this power, leaving corpse with spike. So many spikes...). So you dont need gold twinborn, you need Gold Misting and Gold Ferring, and they are farly common.

 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

 

addiontalky foreign magic isn’t necessarily immediate cause for alarm if you see soemthing you have never seen before do you immediately go like oh it’s scary dangerous or do you investigate probably revealing to the lightweaver they have been detected and promptly getting yourself killed,

Lightweaver detected and compromised. Mission accomplished.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

I think everyone is far over estimating the numbers of mistings and ferrings they have, in the original trilogy twelve mistings were a lot and I’d bet there were maybe 300- 500 mistings and at most 50 mistborn in the final empire who had powers that could be accessed (as in not electrum etc) and who knew they were mistborn. Maybe there were a similar amount of feruchamists and ferrings then most of them died let’s assume a third survives except likely no msitborn did

so 150 ferrings 150 mistings and spook now based on how early they show up I think it’s safe to say there are probably around 30- 75 twin born max in the world of wax is the only crashes ever and we hear about none others but miles and Wayne. Then probably because higher population about let’s say 300+ ferrings since they seem rarer and 500+ mistings 1/4 mistings are basically useless and ferrings are like 5/16 possibly higher but I think storing connection could make you immune to bondsmith thread manipulation.

Elendel has milions of population, and has Misting or Ferring basicly in every corner. They have literaly normal job Mistings like Coinshot Couriers (mentioned as common thing) or Soothers being therapists. Plus other cities on the North, even in Roughs Metalborn are not uncommon.

 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

I also think you are majorly underestimating the honor spren there are enough honorspren in one place to make a city on top of the fact that it is not their only city they have others and not all of their people are even there. They have about 30 windrunners rn but even if we assume the maximum number of  full windrunners is let’s say 200 which is almost certainly untrue kaladin has a 30+ man bridge crew as squires that means each windrunner can have 20 duties if we say kaladin is an anomaly which means roughly 6000 squires.just windrunner squires would outnumber every single magic user on Scadrial by potentially as much as two times and even if I’m massively lowballing estimates there are still unlikely to be more ferrings and Mistings then just windrunner squires. And since each windrunner squires if you just idk gave them a heavy machine gun whcih woudl be fine since weights doesn’t matter they are basically a fighter jet that means that roshar can basically can outnumber the total combat fighter complement of the us military by a factor of 6. If we assume 200 is the max for every order and stonewards seem to have like 2-3 squires low end that means each stoneware squires alone could potentially be equal to half of the magic users on Scadrial. 

It was 50 Windruuners with Spren, 200 in total. So one knight, 3 Squires. Kaladin is anomaly. And only Stonewards and Skybreakers have enouugh Squires.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

I doubt that would work keep in mind aluminum is a fairly soft metal do aluminum billets may not have the penetration power to reasonably quickly deal with shardplate.

so basically 

aluminum loses to shardplate

 

Softnes doesnt matter with enough barrelspeed. We have examples of AT-Rifle with plain lead anti-tank 7,92 mm caliber ammo and was able to punch throu 33mm (above Inch) of hardened steel. And Shardplate isnt strong as this. And they dont need plain Aluminum, bullets coated with it should be enough.

Also, Scadrians have stronger Aluminum alloys with stil ant-Investiture properties. Miles has whole aluminum gun, and gun need to be strong enough to sustain pressure during shot, if is not its simply dangerous to use.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

lwevher keeps don’t work on flying people and possibly don’t work on 4th ideal radiants and if having your spine severed repeatedly is only an inconvenience I doubt billets will do anything.

Aluminum in a wound stops magical healing and wound causes Stormlight to leak. If Radiant has Aluminum bullet in brain, is dead. If he has it in spine, is dead.

 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

But they don’t have that, and even if they did it wouldn’t matter because rosharans can just reposition those leaching cubes would do nothing to windrunners, edgedancer a, sky breakers, etc who can just nope out and in all likelihood 4th ideal radiants would heavily resist the effect.

Eeee....

Those leeching cubes simply make powers disapear. Weve seen this in action. It is Scadrian equivalent of supressor fabrials. I dont know why they "would do nothing" to Windrunners or any other order - if Radiant steps (flies, whatever) in reach, loses powers.

[Valigus]

18 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

ANY sort of soulcasting is both sides. Soulcast into, soulcast from.

 

Its possible to steal hemalurgicly power earlier given by hemalurgy (mean if someone is spiked you can spike him again with other spike and steal this power, leaving corpse with spike. So many spikes...). So you dont need gold twinborn, you need Gold Misting and Gold Ferring, and they are farly common.

 

Lightweaver detected and compromised. Mission accomplished.

Elendel has milions of population, and has Misting or Ferring basicly in every corner. They have literaly normal job Mistings like Coinshot Couriers (mentioned as common thing) or Soothers being therapists. Plus other cities on the North, even in Roughs Metalborn are not uncommon.

 

It was 50 Windruuners with Spren, 200 in total. So one knight, 3 Squires. Kaladin is anomaly. And only Stonewards and Skybreakers have enouugh Squires.

 

Softnes doesnt matter with enough barrelspeed. We have examples of AT-Rifle with plain lead anti-tank 7,92 mm caliber ammo and was able to punch throu 33mm (above Inch) of hardened steel. And Shardplate isnt strong as this. And they dont need plain Aluminum, bullets coated with it should be enough.

Also, Scadrians have stronger Aluminum alloys with stil ant-Investiture properties. Miles has whole aluminum gun, and gun need to be strong enough to sustain pressure during shot, if is not its simply dangerous to use.

Aluminum in a wound stops magical healing and wound causes Stormlight to leak. If Radiant has Aluminum bullet in brain, is dead. If he has it in spine, is dead.

 

Eeee....

Those leeching cubes simply make powers disapear. Weve seen this in action. It is Scadrian equivalent of supressor fabrials. I dont know why they "would do nothing" to Windrunners or any other order - if Radiant steps (flies, whatever) in reach, loses powers.

It does not say that, even if it does dalinar would be able to provide enough stormlight and since some normal soulcasters can make it’s clearly possible.

mistings and ferrings are not common at all it’s been made pretty clear they are very rare.

not really the seeker would have 0 clue what they are looking at, 0 clue what to do about it or anything just seeing a weird pulse doesn’t ensure the mission will be compromised.

metalborn are stated and clearly are a rare occurrence there are normal

jobs for metalborn yes but there are also normal jobs for equally rare professions in real life just because jobs exist doesn’t make them common a soothing or rioting parlor needs like 2-3 people that’s not a lot even if we assume they are 5% of the population a super high ball estimate they are likely sub one percent that’s one million 250,000 of which are functionally useless and a single squire outclasses all of those, ferrings are substantially rarer. And even if they have 750,000 metalborn a squire outclasses any type of metalborn easily and considering there is a whole civilization of honor spren I imagine their numbers are in the 10s of thousands at least meaning we could have with 10000 windrunners 200,000 squires.

we have zero indication kaladin is an anomaly in this regard if he can maintain 30-40 squires so should others. 
 

In terms of armor shardbearers are basically a tank and scadirans have yet to display any cannon big enough to take one out. A machine gun would not take a out a shardbearer before they took out the machine gun

They would likely heal around the billet like shallan did the knife 

leaching isn’t instant the fact that they are similar to fabriel suppressors which do not work on 4th ideal radiants and work less on windrunners because they have access to a surge close to a specific god. I bet atium would be harder or impossible to drain by leeching.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus