Roshar as a case study for space age cosmere.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

Okay so I had a thought about how complex Roshar’s magic is in comparison to every other cosmere magic system we’ve been exposed too... and I started to realize that it’s because Roshar’s magic is not a singular planetary magic system... but rather, it’s a planet with natural magic systems (the singers and their forms, old magic, fabrials) dealing with an invasive species of a magic system (surgebinding) which seems to have come from Ashyn...

now... call me crazy... but this seems like it could be some foreshadowing for future cosmere stuff. We might see the total transformation and/or mixing of magic systems in very strange and interesting ways... but we may also see the total decimation of others for similar reasons, where they just can’t stand up to other Magic’s and therefore need to be altered or expanded upon by their shards.

 

thoughts?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Okay so I had a thought about how complex Roshar’s magic is in comparison to every other cosmere magic system we’ve been exposed too... and I started to realize that it’s because Roshar’s magic is not a singular planetary magic system... but rather, it’s a planet with natural magic systems (the singers and their forms, old magic, fabrials) dealing with an invasive species of a magic system (surgebinding) which seems to have come from Ashyn...

now... call me crazy... but this seems like it could be some foreshadowing for future cosmere stuff. We might see the total transformation and/or mixing of magic systems in very strange and interesting ways... but we may also see the total decimation of others for similar reasons, where they just can’t stand up to other Magic’s and therefore need to be altered or expanded upon by their shards.

 

thoughts?

I think it’s less that Roshar’s system is highly complicated as that we don’t know the rules. In other books we’ve been told the rules at some point in the story. On Roshar the characters are still piecing those rules together, so it seems more confusing than it may actually be. 

There’s also the fact that with three Shards on the planet we could have seven different systems due to the Shardic interactions.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think it’s less that Roshar’s system is highly complicated as that we don’t know the rules. In other books we’ve been told the rules at some point in the story. On Roshar the characters are still piecing those rules together, so it seems more confusing than it may actually be. 

There’s also the fact that with three Shards on the planet we could have seven different systems due to the Shardic interactions.

Number of Shards don't translate directly to number of magic systems. Sel is best example, Has two Shards (splintered, yes, but essentialy power is power) and Has not 3 but at least 5.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Number of Shards don't translate directly to number of magic systems. Sel is best example, Has two Shards (splintered, yes, but essentialy power is power) and Has not 3 but at least 5.

Sel actually has only one we’ve seen. It just acts differently depending on location, but it’s the same system. Apparently the magic was somewhat different before D&D got shoved in the Cognitive. (Splintering didn’t change things; the power being put in the wrong place DID.)

[+Bzhydack he/him]

25 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Sel actually has only one we’ve seen. It just acts differently depending on location, but it’s the same system. Apparently the magic was somewhat different before D&D got shoved in the Cognitive. (Splintering didn’t change things; the power being put in the wrong place DID.)

Disagree.

Yes, Focus is the same, as well as power source, but application of them is drasticly different in all of them. 

Also, magic system can change after some drastic, world changing event. We've seen this on Sel, on Ashyn, on Threnody as well.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Disagree.

Yes, Focus is the same, as well as power source, but application of them is drasticly different in all of them. 

Also, magic system can change after some drastic, world changing event. We've seen this on Sel, on Ashyn, on Threnody as well.

It’s essentially the same system, just manifesting differently in each area due to the region locking. They’re all different methods of programming the Dor. It isn’t a good example though, because it’s that way only due to very specific factors on Sel.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[Ixthos he/him]

5 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Okay so I had a thought about how complex Roshar’s magic is in comparison to every other cosmere magic system we’ve been exposed too... and I started to realize that it’s because Roshar’s magic is not a singular planetary magic system... but rather, it’s a planet with natural magic systems (the singers and their forms, old magic, fabrials) dealing with an invasive species of a magic system (surgebinding) which seems to have come from Ashyn...

now... call me crazy... but this seems like it could be some foreshadowing for future cosmere stuff. We might see the total transformation and/or mixing of magic systems in very strange and interesting ways... but we may also see the total decimation of others for similar reasons, where they just can’t stand up to other Magic’s and therefore need to be altered or expanded upon by their shards.

 

thoughts?

I already think of Stormlight as a pseudo-conflux book, with the significance of the Cosmere's existence being important to the series if not the details of the worlds outside of Roshar, so I can well see this as a possibility :-) Roshar as a world with magic meeting magic and so shaping each other makes sense.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s essentially the same system, just manifesting differently in each area due to the region locking. They’re all different methods of programming the Dor. It isn’t a good example though, because it’s that way only due to very specific factors on Sel.

But requirments for all systems are different. They are region-based for all, but vary in other ways - Reod is basicly random but for like two nations, Forging and Bloodsealing is practicly available for every member os particular nation with proper training, and Dakhor needet specific transformation first and also membership to specific organization.

Basis is the same for all of them (focus + power source) but differences are too fundamental to see them as the same system. Going with programing analogy, they all use different OS. And cannot be translated easly.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Sel actually has only one we’ve seen. It just acts differently depending on location, but it’s the same system. Apparently the magic was somewhat different before D&D got shoved in the Cognitive. (Splintering didn’t change things; the power being put in the wrong place DID.)

Yeah, Sel's an odd one. Brandon's said he considers it all one system (somewhat analogous to Surgebinding and its manifestations), but some of the manifestations are more closely related than others. (Interestingly, Elantris apparently was built before the Splintering of the two Shards, which... makes no sense, but alright then. )

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

also membership to specific organization.

I would guess that's a knowledge issue more than anything else. I don't see why joining the organization of monks would actually be a prerequisite.

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Reod is basicly random but for like two nations

We know the Shaod is due to the city of Elantris. It's unclear whether the initiation for AonDor was modified or if the city just transforms people initiated normally, but the fact most of the other magics there don't seem likely to have a similar initiation makes me wonder.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

8 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But requirments for all systems are different. They are region-based for all, but vary in other ways - Reod is basicly random but for like two nations, Forging and Bloodsealing is practicly available for every member os particular nation with proper training, and Dakhor needet specific transformation first and also membership to specific organization.

Basis is the same for all of them (focus + power source) but differences are too fundamental to see them as the same system. Going with programing analogy, they all use different OS. And cannot be translated easly.

@LewsTherinTelescope found the relevant WoB. Thanks Lews! I’m terrible at tracking those down.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@LewsTherinTelescope found the relevant WoB. Thanks Lews! I’m terrible at tracking those down.

Yeah, there was a lot of discussion of AonDor and the Selish magics in the Discord recently, after the WoB on when Elantris was built, so I remembered how to find a few different relevant ones, lol

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

15 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I already think of Stormlight as a pseudo-conflux book, with the significance of the Cosmere's existence being important to the series if not the details of the worlds outside of Roshar, so I can well see this as a possibility :-) Roshar as a world with magic meeting magic and so shaping each other makes sense.

This is exactly the lines I was thinking along. I'm doing a reread and it just feels like its going in that direction. Idk how to explain it but the connections between SA's magic systems feel very ingrained within the history of Roshar.

[mathiau he/him]

16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(Interestingly, Elantris apparently was built before the Splintering of the two Shards, which... makes no sense, but alright then. )

(The link doesn't link to anything)

I don't see any issue, it just means Aona created Elantris for some reason, probably to protect the people of Arelon

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

(The link doesn't link to anything)

Ah, no, it does, but the WoB's not approved by the Arcanists yet, so you need to be logged into an Arcanum account to view it. Here it is:

Quote

/u/Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't see any issue, it just means Aona created Elantris for some reason, probably to protect the people of Arelon

AonDor existing before Aons or the Dor should have existed isn't an issue? I mean, clearly our understanding is just pretty flawed, but as far as we know, none of the Selish magics should have existed yet, because the Shards being Splintered and in the Cognitive is the reason we've been given for why the shapes are based on the land in the first place, and letting things through from the Cognitive is the basis for how the magic works at all. The city is designed around multiple shapes that should not have been at all significant at the time, and must be stupidly precise in order to function and built with the Intent to draw from a power source that should not have existed at the time either.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, no, it does, but the WoB's not approved by the Arcanists yet, so you need to be logged into an Arcanum account to view it. Here it is:

 

AonDor existing before Aons or the Dor should have existed isn't an issue? I mean, clearly our understanding is just pretty flawed, but as far as we know, none of the Selish magics should have existed yet, because the Shards being Splintered and in the Cognitive is the reason we've been given for why the shapes are based on the land in the first place, and letting things through from the Cognitive is the basis for how the magic works at all. The city is designed around multiple shapes that should not have been at all significant at the time, and must be stupidly precise in order to function and built with the Intent to draw from a power source that should not have existed at the time either.

Theory: Aona saw what was coming and created both the original Aonic language and the city of Elantris as preparation in case Odium succeeded. Her Shardpool is right near there too. (I’ve always thought Aona created Aonic, for some reason.)

[Frustration he/him]

23 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

AonDor existing before Aons or the Dor should have existed isn't an issue? I mean, clearly our understanding is just pretty flawed, but as far as we know, none of the Selish magics should have existed yet, because the Shards being Splintered and in the Cognitive is the reason we've been given for why the shapes are based on the land in the first place, and letting things through from the Cognitive is the basis for how the magic works at all. The city is designed around multiple shapes that should not have been at all significant at the time, and must be stupidly precise in order to function and built with the Intent to draw from a power source that should not have existed at the time either.

It could simply have drawn apron Devotion's power, just a less restricted form of Allomancy.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

31 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Theory: Aona saw what was coming and created both the original Aonic language and the city of Elantris as preparation in case Odium succeeded.

I could accept that, I suppose. Still feels really odd to me an Aon could be built prior to the Dor and still function, but it wouldn't be the weirdest thing with Cosmere magics by a long shot.

31 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

(I’ve always thought Aona created Aonic, for some reason.)

The fact it's seemingly named after her is probably why (Which is weird, because the sounds are not inherent to the letters, so why'd they name it after Aona, when the Aonic peoples definitely arrived millennia after the Splintering? Who knows.)

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It could simply have drawn apron Devotion's power, just a less restricted form of Allomancy.

But why would it be landscape-based yet, and why would it still continue to function after the power it's drawing from got moved to an entirely different Realm?

Edit:

31 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Her Shardpool is right near there too.

Oddly enough, she seems to have multiple Shardpools in those mountains. The one Hoid goes through doesn't actually match the description of the one the Elantrians use. Makes sense how it could happen, not a crazy deal, still an interesting side note to me.

Edited March 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[mathiau he/him]

21 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

AonDor existing before Aons or the Dor should have existed isn't an issue? I mean, clearly our understanding is just pretty flawed, but as far as we know, none of the Selish magics should have existed yet, because the Shards being Splintered and in the Cognitive is the reason we've been given for why the shapes are based on the land in the first place, and letting things through from the Cognitive is the basis for how the magic works at all. The city is designed around multiple shapes that should not have been at all significant at the time, and must be stupidly precise in order to function and built with the Intent to draw from a power source that should not have existed at the time either.

Why would Elantris's existence before the Splitering mean AonDor existed before the Splintering too? And why would we think Aons didn't exists before the Splintering? We know the Seons didn't but it'd be weird if they were the first instance of Aons.

With our current understanding of the Dor it's perfectly possible a proto version the Elantrians existed without the AonDor/with powers that didn't work the same way at all

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I could accept that, I suppose. Still feels really odd to me an Aon could be built prior to the Dor and still function, but it wouldn't be the weirdest thing with Cosmere magics by a long shot.

It's also possible Elantris was not originally a functioning Aon but just five cities shaped in a Aon Rao way and some Elantrians made it in the Shaod amplifier it is today

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The fact it's seemingly named after her is probably why (Which is weird, because the sounds are not inherent to the letters, so why'd they name it after Aona, when the Aonic peoples definitely arrived millennia after the Splintering? Who knows.)

Why would they have arrived millennia after Odium?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Why would Elantris's existence before the Splitering mean AonDor existed before the Splintering too?

Because the entire city is designed around multiple Aon shapes, and has to be built with the Intent to function as an Aon by people with the ability to make Aons?

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And why would we think Aons didn't exists before the Splintering?

Because the Selish powers being based around the landscape has been said by Brandon to be due to the Shards having been shoved into the Cognitive after being Splintered.

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It's also possible Elantris was not originally a functioning Aon but just five cities shaped in a Aon Rao way and some Elantrians made it in the Shaod amplifier it is today

Aons have to be made by AonDor users with Intent to make it an Aon. The cities would have to by happenstance be built in a perfect shape with perfect proportions and distances for walls and roads to be added later for this to happen (and the inside of Elantris would have to be completely redesigned, as the city's layout is in the shape of a different Aon from the big Rao).

24 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Why would they have arrived millennia after Odium?

This is a mistake on my part, I conflated a couple WoBs about Elantris and the Aonic people. We don't actually know when they arrived, as far as I can tell.

Edited March 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope
Wrong WoB, sorry. Corrected.

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Because the entire city is designed around multiple Aon shapes, and has to be built with the Intent to function as an Aon by people with the ability to make Aons?

Ah yes, that's indeed an issue

Quote

Because the Selish powers being based around the landscape has been said by Brandon to be due to the Shards having been shoved into the Cognitive after being Splintered.

I was asking about the language not the magic, if Aona made the Aons there no reason for her to to inspire herself from the landscape

(also, your WoB is about whether the land is the Dor's Vessel not why the landscape changing affect the Aons)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

20 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I was asking about the language not the magic, if Aona made the Aons there no reason for her to to inspire herself from the landscape

The Aons used in the language are based on the landscape, though. (Written language, anyway. The sounds are probably a different matter.)

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

(also, your WoB is about whether the land is the Dor's Vessel not why the landscape changing affect the Aons)

Oh for— Here's the right one, I thought I fixed that. Must've pressed copy instead of paste when fixing the URL or something.