Evolution of Singers and its effect on how the fused function

[+Cyprian Wiley]

The theory of evolution and natural selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution is based in the real world but a lot creatures in Roshar seem to be well adapted to its environment. 
Assuming that there was some kind of evolution the question arises if there was intervening from other beings and how intense it was.  
 

Mistborn Era 1 Spoiler

Spoiler

In Mistborn we find out that the biology of humans has been changed by the lord ruler. 

And at the same time it is often assumed that Singers and Humans could have children together or that some variations of humans, like the Horneaters, are either adapted to their environment by a "unnatural" power like a shard or natural evolution. 

It is also often mentioned, maybe even by characters in the book, that a singer genocide would stop the fused from returning. 
But i do not think that this would actually work. It depends on how the fused return. As far as I understand the gem heart is necessary. But is it possible that it is just far more easy for the fused to take over a body that closely resembles what they looked like? The same way awakening works better with things that resemble a body but it is actually possible to awaken even a sword. 
What I am trying to say is, that a  may not be enough to stop the fused because they could find other ways like returning in (sentient) greatshells or maybe even humans. It might be enoug to put  a gemheart into a human to give a fused access.

Mistborn Era 1 Spoiler

Spoiler

The same way a hermalurgic spike allows ruin to access someone.

What do you think? Could fused use other greatshells or human/singer hybrids or humans with a gemheart but only prefer singers?

[AquaRegia he/him]

I have several thoughts:

I think it's probably not wise to put too many eggs in the evolution basket with regards to the Cosmere.  Brandon is a great writer, and he does his science homework to a reasonable degree, but evolutionary biology is certainly not his area of expertise.  I recommend not getting your hopes up too high for clever evolutionary explanations for things.  I'm reasonably sure it's already canon that both Horneaters and Herdazians have singer heritage, so clearly Brandon has no problem with interspecies genetic mixing, despite this not making a lot of evolutionary sense.

We also know that the entire Rosharan system was wholly created by Adonalsium, and is too new to have a fossil record.  I think that likely rules out any kind of normal evolutionary processes, which require tens or hundreds of millions of years.

We did see Meridas Amaram gaining access to Surges via a bond with Yelig-Nar, and all he had to do was SWALLOW a gemstone.  So I think that's a big YES to your final question.

[Aspiring Writer]

12 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

We did see Meridas Amaram gaining access to Surges via a bond with Yelig-Nar, and all he had to do was SWALLOW a gemstone.  So I think that's a big YES to your final question.

That's an unmade, not a fused, very different.

[Frustration he/him]

Horneater's and Herdasians are of Singer decent.

[AquaRegia he/him]

11 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

That's an unmade, not a fused, very different.

I stipulate that the Unmade are not identically the same as the Fused... but the degree to which the Amaram/Yelig-Nar bond paralleled that of Radiants and Fused is considerable, in my opinion.  Given the amount of magic abounding in this world (it is FANTASY, right?), it seems presumptuous to rule out anything, ESPECIALLY things quite similar to what we've already seen happen. 

Additionally, I'd add that textual evidence supports that many animals - including skyeels, chasmfiends, larkins (all native to Roshar) and Ryshadium (imported by humans) - engage in bonding with spren to some degree.  The idea that Fused could bond with hosts other than singers seems absolutely reasonable to consider, and impossible to refute based on what we know so far.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 4/13/2021 at 8:29 PM, Frustration said:

Horneater's and Herdasians are of Singer decent.

It's also possible (but unconfirmed) that the Selay might, due to their "skin ripples".

Additionally, the people of Natanatan and Babatharnam have Siah blood, so it's not just humans and singers that can mix.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 13.4.2021 at 2:51 PM, Chiri-Chiri<3 said:

The theory of evolution and natural selection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution is based in the real world but a lot creatures in Roshar seem to be well adapted to its environment. 
Assuming that there was some kind of evolution the question arises if there was intervening from other beings and how intense it was. 

Quite intense

• No antennas
• 4 instead of at least six limbs
• extremely reduced exoskeleton
• the bonding mechanism works differently

Adonalism made them. That is why they can interbreed. In fact he even formed the continent.

On 14.4.2021 at 2:51 AM, AquaRegia said:

We also know that the entire Rosharan system was wholly created by Adonalsium, and is too new to have a fossil record.  I think that likely rules out any kind of normal evolutionary processes, which require tens or hundreds of millions of years.

That quote by Vasher? He was speaking about a specific kind of shell fossile, not fossiles in general.

On 14.4.2021 at 3:05 PM, AquaRegia said:

Additionally, I'd add that textual evidence supports that many animals - including skyeels, chasmfiends, larkins (all native to Roshar) and Ryshadium (imported by humans) - engage in bonding with spren to some degree.

By a different mechanism. The Singers carry a Spren inside their gemhearts, basically like a Fabrial giving them a form and in case of Regals arcane powers.
Ordinary Rosharan animals form some sort of proto-Nahel bond. You see their luckspren outside but near the animals in case of Greatshells and Skyeels. They have gem hearts to store Stormlight.

On 14.4.2021 at 3:05 PM, AquaRegia said:

The idea that Fused could bond with hosts other than singers seems absolutely reasonable to consider, and impossible to refute based on what we know so far.

A Fused does not exactly bond in a Spren sense with its host. The host is kicked out and dies.

[Criggleworth]

From what we've seen thus far, the Fused require consent before they take over a singer's body. The exception is when a crazed Fused takes over rocks to become a Thunderclast.

This is not to say that a Fused can't form other kinds of bonds. We've just not seen it yet. There are some WoBs suggesting that cognitive shadows can form Nahel bonds- or something close enough. Now, whether this also extends to them being able to possess Rosharan life? Totally unknown.

[mathiau he/him]

On 17/04/2021 at 8:11 AM, Oltux72 said:

That quote by Vasher? He was speaking about a specific kind of shell fossile, not fossiles in general.

Why do you think that?

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By a different mechanism. The Singers carry a Spren inside their gemhearts, basically like a Fabrial giving them a form and in case of Regals arcane powers.
Ordinary Rosharan animals form some sort of proto-Nahel bond. You see their luckspren outside but near the animals in case of Greatshells and Skyeels. They have gem hearts to store Stormlight.

Ulim could go out of Venli's gemheart while bounded.

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A Fused does not exactly bond in a Spren sense with its host. The host is kicked out and dies.

By the way, the fused are not in the gemheart of their host but in their whole bodies, otherwise the Fused-antivoidlight reaction would have been far more explosive

Edited April 18, 2021 by mathiau

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 18.4.2021 at 0:40 PM, mathiau said:

Why do you think that?

Roshar has families of related animals. Their science has a systematics of chrysalis shapes. That takes tens of millions of years minimum. Vasher cannot know what deep sea animals Roshar has or had. Their science is not up to that task and he hardly can do original research or would want to.

On 18.4.2021 at 0:40 PM, mathiau said:

Ulim could go out of Venli's gemheart while bounded.

He was not bounded in that sense. She never changed to "Ulim-form". He was inside her body in the way Timbre can be. Timbre does not cast out the Spren giving her Envoyform.

On 18.4.2021 at 0:40 PM, mathiau said:

By the way, the fused are not in the gemheart of their host but in their whole bodies, otherwise the Fused-antivoidlight reaction would have been far more explosive

Yet they cast out the Spren in the gemheart, or the Fused would not have specific forms according to brand.

[mathiau he/him]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Roshar has families of related animals. Their science has a systematics of chrysalis shapes. That takes tens of millions of years minimum. Vasher cannot know what deep sea animals Roshar has or had. Their science is not up to that task and he hardly can do original research or would want to.

That's not the question I asked. I asked why you thought Vasher said "you may have this kind of fossil" and not "you may have fossils" when in his previous sentence he said his planet was too young to have any fossil.

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Yet they cast out the Spren in the gemheart, or the Fused would not have specific forms according to brand.

Yes, because lesser sprens can't bound a Fused any more than Syl can attract a gloryspren

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's not the question I asked. I asked why you thought Vasher said "you may have this kind of fossil" and not "you may have fossils" when in his previous sentence he said his planet was too young to have any fossil.

 

Quote

The place I come from, it didn't have any of these. It's too new. Your world might have some hidden deep, but I doubt it

That we must take to mean that Vasher is sure that Nalthis is too young to have macroscopic fossils. However, he does not know how old Roshar is. The age of Nalthis and Roshar are independent.

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Yes, because lesser sprens can't bound a Fused any more than Syl can attract a gloryspren

That could bound Ba-Ado-Mishram.  They made be able to form a Nahel bond.

Yes, we have to talk why they cannot take a new form. I'd say the simplest answer is that their gemheart is full. No additional Spren fits.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Roshar has families of related animals. Their science has a systematics of chrysalis shapes. That takes tens of millions of years minimum. Vasher cannot know what deep sea animals Roshar has or had. Their science is not up to that task and he hardly can do original research or would want to.

In the Cosmere, where plants, animals - and, indeed, entire planets - can be magically created and changed, does it make sense to look at ANY living things and assume "this is the result millions of years of evolution"?  In fact, I think the safe assumption is the opposite: things on Roshar are just the way Adonalsium made them, patterns and systems included.  You are of course correct that neither we nor Vasher know for sure.  But I'm betting evolution is not going to be a factor in any Cosmere stories.

I love science too, in the real world... but in the Cosmere, science always takes a back seat to magic.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

In the Cosmere, where plants, animals - and, indeed, entire planets - can be magically created and changed, does it make sense to look at ANY living things and assume "this is the result millions of years of evolution"?  In fact, I think the safe assumption is the opposite: things on Roshar are just the way Adonalsium made them, patterns and systems included.  You are of course correct that neither we nor Vasher know for sure.  But I'm betting evolution is not going to be a factor in any Cosmere stories.

I love science too, in the real world... but in the Cosmere, science always takes a back seat to magic.

Roshar has things made by fiat and you can see them: the Singers

The Singers make no sense within the rest of Roshar's fauna. They have no antennas and too few limbs and looking like human beings.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That we must take to mean that Vasher is sure that Nalthis is too young to have macroscopic fossils. However, he does not know how old Roshar is. The age of Nalthis and Roshar are independent.

So you agree Vasher was also talking about fossils of cremlings?

Quote

That could bound Ba-Ado-Mishram.  They made be able to form a Nahel bond.

I think I'm missing a part of the sentence, are you saying we've seen BAM bond to sprens?

Quote

Yes, we have to talk why they cannot take a new form. I'd say the simplest answer is that their gemheart is full. No additional Spren fits.

Could just be that they don't need it so they never tried tbh. I'm still on my idea that that kind of incarnated CS just can't bond spren though

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That takes tens of millions of years minimum. 

Evolution is much faster in the Cosmere

Edited April 19, 2021 by Frustration

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

So you agree Vasher was also talking about fossils of cremlings?

No. That fossil seems to have been of a mollusc. Roshar does not have them, at least on land or in shallow waters. Roshar surely has fossilzed cremlings. A few tens of thousands of years are enough for that. In fact, I doubt Vasher has any idea how old fossils really are.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I think I'm missing a part of the sentence, are you saying we've seen BAM bond to sprens?

She was the leader of several desolations wasn't she? So we have not seen her, but there are indications.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Could just be that they don't need it so they never tried tbh. I'm still on my idea that that kind of incarnated CS just can't bond spren though

Nale can. As far as we have data, it is possible.

[AquaRegia he/him]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Evolution is much faster in the Cosmere

That would be very exciting, if true - what evidence is there of this?

[Frustration he/him]

9 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

That would be very exciting, if true - what evidence is there of this?

Spoiler

Questioner

Do the Purelakers get pruney feet because of the water? If not, is it because they have special feet or does it have to do with the magic fish?

Brandon Sanderson

They have adapted over time and they do not have magic feet. They have special feet, but they have adapted over time to the situation. Now, let's make the note that most natural selection does not work on the timescale of the cosmere and so there probably have to be some magical foundations for this. The fact that everyone on Roshar is Invested with a bit of Investiture more than average is going to push people over time in a way. Kind of the rationale I give myself on this is because Intent and these sorts of things are so important cosmerelogically that we get evolution on a faster scale in most of the cosmere. And so you can see this just by adaptations that have happened since the history of Roshar itself and the arrival of humans on Roshar and things like that.

YouTube Livestream 9 (May 28, 2020)

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

So it's accelerated MAGICAL evolution!  Thank you for sharing that!

This lets Brandon explain relatively rapid changes in living things, while presumably not affecting geological processes like erosion, sedimentation, or the formation of fossils... but how can we be sure?  Given that magic is involved, any "normal" scientific approaches to understanding - making predictions, testing hypotheses, etc. - will necessarily be less reliable than they would if the Cosmere worked by natural laws alone.

I still think that while "science" may help characters like Navani and the Ardents figure out some things in the present, long-time-scale things like evolution and geology are unlikely to play an important role in the Cosmere stories.  I'm as excited as anyone to find out what happens on Scadrial in upcoming Eras, but I temper my expectations with the fact that the Cosmere runs on a different set of laws than our universe, and ultimately what happens there is solely dependent on the whims of one man.